Exactly right, on all counts (especially about it being confusing! ;-) Thanks! And have a wonderful Christmas! Cheers, Katherine >Hi Katherine, > Thanks for the clarification. Its obviously confusing. The >Internet has fueled an information revolution which blurs the lines >even more. I doubt that any genealogy organization wants to keep >members from sharing. This goes back to the fair use you mentioned, >and the lifting of facts only. How those facts are arranged seems to >be the copyright part. Have I got this right so far? >-----Original Message----- >From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 2:37 PM >Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > > > >William, > > > >Please re-read my earlier message. Making one copy for personal or > >scholarly research is authorized under the Fair Use clause of the > >Copyright act. When libraries make a copy for someone (say, for > >InterLibrary Loan), they are doing that as the agent of the > >researcher, which is also covered under Fair Use (libraries are > >specifically mentioned in the Act). Someone may not plan to > >distribute anything she's given, but if someone other than the > >author, copyright holder (author, author's heirs or publisher who has > >a copyright) makes those copies and gives them to her, that person is > >doing distribution. By asking someone to do that, one is asking them > >to break the law, and becomes an accessory to an illegal action. > > > >There is a way around all this mess -- if someone reads an article > >and quotes small portions of it, or rephrases the facts (citing the > >original author as their source, of course), that's called research > >or scholarship, and is perfectly within the law. It is the > >EXPRESSION of a work that is copyrighted, not discrete facts embedded > >within it. So, if I write a biography of my GGGG grandfather, Riggs > >Pennington, you can't legally copy it and give it away or sell it, > >but you can discover within that work that I believe Riggs was the > >son of Timothy Pennington, that he was a land surveryor and he died > >in Texas after living in KY, IN and IL, and you are perfectly free to > >use those bits of information any way you like. If you properly cite > >your source, you're doing good genealogy research, but even if you > >don't it's not illegal to use the information itself. Remember that > >ethics, law and rules of research are three different things, even > >though they overlap in many areas. > > > >Look, I didn't write this law, and I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not > >even writing this as a PRA representative. I'm not on the PRA Board, > >I don't make policy for the group. I'm simply trying to provide some > >information to this group (and the PRA Board) about the law that I've > >had to acquire (and abide by, and expect others to abide by) in my > >business as a publisher. It's really pretty simple. If you don't > >own something, you can't give it away without stealing it unless you > >have the owner's permission to do so. Intellectual property is still > >property, just like personal property or real property. If you take > >the results of someone's work, whether it is from a writer or a > >woodcarver or a car manufacturer, and give it to someone else without > >paying the maker (or the maker's distributor) for it and without the > >maker's permission, you're guilty of theft regardless of whether you > >made a profit on it or not. The confusion arises in the case of > >intellectual property because the law actually allows one to do this > >in a limited way under certain conditions, but if you don't meet > >those conditions you are violating the law. > > > >The PRA board is trying very hard to understand how to make the > >literature they've published over the past 30-40 years available and > >still be legal and not bankrupt the organization by reproducing > >material without compensation. Progress really is happening, but > >remember this is a volunteer organization, and that sometimes makes > >things take longer than if it was a commercial outfit doing it. > > > >Katherine > > > > > > > >>I suppose the libraries are breaking the law by having the copy > >>machines there. Why, because what is there to copy in libraries but > >>copyrighted works Sue already stated that she did not intend to > >>distribute the material. Your splitting hairs here. > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> > >>To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > >>Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:52 AM > >>Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > >> > >> > >> >Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in >court > >> >on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with >it, > >> >mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators >than > >> >to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and > >> >distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold > >> >copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something >doesn't > >> >mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal >research > >> >is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking >that > >> >copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or >"distributing") > >> >is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or >not. > >> >The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, >you > >> >could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by > >> >making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. > >> > > >> >Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits > >> >involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington > >> >Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS >discussion > >> >ongoing about how to make information from back issues available >at > >> >little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time >to > >> >work out the details. One complication is that to observe the >law, > >> >permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the >authors' > >> >heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite >a > >> >task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial > >> >undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that >even > >> >using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some >costs > >> >involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone >do > >> >not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP > >> >articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate >the > >> >authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. >Other > >> >people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure >your > >> >help would be welcome, too. > >> > > >> >Katherine > >> > > >> > > >> >>Katherine Cochrane wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Sue, > >> >> > > >> >> > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate >breaking > >>the law? > >> >> > > >> >> > Katherine > >> >> > > >> >> > >Hello, > >> >> > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that >offered > >>their > >> >> > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the >information > >>in the > >> >> > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that > >>material from > >> >> > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to >read > >>through > >> >> > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the > >>family. An > >> >> > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my > >>husband's > >> >> > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > >> >> > > > >> >> > >I did receive one email telling me that the information >could > >>not be > >> >> > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington > >>officers, or > >> >> > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy >here. > >>Most > >> >> > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across >very > >>few that > >> >> > >are only "takers." > >> >> > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is > >>completely > >> >> > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all >issues > >>that might > >> >> > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who >paid > >>money to > >> >> > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group > >>because of > >> >> > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any >library > >>where > >> >> > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages >as > >>they wish. > >> >> > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., >and > >>there is > >> >> > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from >books > >>and > >> >> > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem >with > >>how this > >> >> > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to >join > >>your > >> >> > >organization? > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and >come > >>up with > >> >> > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for >all > >>of the > >> >> > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > >> >> > >Sue > >> >> > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > >> >> > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > >> >> > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on >the > >>PRA web site > >> >> > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the >author. > >> >> > >__________________________________________________________ > >> >> > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > >> >> > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > >> >> > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > >> >> > > >> >> > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >> >> > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > >> >> > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you >are > >>expecting > >> >> > For addition virus info see > >>http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > >> >> > http://www.mcafee.com/ > >> >> > >> >>I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said >was > >>that > >> >>if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't >intend > >>to > >> >>turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not > >>writing a > >> >>book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see > >>people > >> >>lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I > >>like to > >> >>have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to >compare > >>it, > >> >>etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in > >>front of > >> >>you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. > >>It's > >> >>great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling > >>anyone to > >> >>make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. > >> >>Sue > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >> >>To search the archives of this mail list see > >> >>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > >> >>The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site > >> >>http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! > >> > > >> > > >> >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >> >The Pennington Research Association Web Site > >> >http://penningtonresearch.org > >> >for subscribe and unsub instructions, > >> >follow the links to e-mail group. > >> > > >> > >> > >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >>Happy Holidays > > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >This Pennington mail list is hosted by Rootsweb. > >To subscribe to Rootsweb, and show your support of their efforts, see > >http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >This Pennington mail list is hosted by Rootsweb. >To subscribe to Rootsweb, and show your support of their efforts, see >http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

Hi Katherine, Thanks for the clarification. Its obviously confusing. The Internet has fueled an information revolution which blurs the lines even more. I doubt that any genealogy organization wants to keep members from sharing. This goes back to the fair use you mentioned, and the lifting of facts only. How those facts are arranged seems to be the copyright part. Have I got this right so far? -----Original Message----- From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information >William, > >Please re-read my earlier message. Making one copy for personal or >scholarly research is authorized under the Fair Use clause of the >Copyright act. When libraries make a copy for someone (say, for >InterLibrary Loan), they are doing that as the agent of the >researcher, which is also covered under Fair Use (libraries are >specifically mentioned in the Act). Someone may not plan to >distribute anything she's given, but if someone other than the >author, copyright holder (author, author's heirs or publisher who has >a copyright) makes those copies and gives them to her, that person is >doing distribution. By asking someone to do that, one is asking them >to break the law, and becomes an accessory to an illegal action. > >There is a way around all this mess -- if someone reads an article >and quotes small portions of it, or rephrases the facts (citing the >original author as their source, of course), that's called research >or scholarship, and is perfectly within the law. It is the >EXPRESSION of a work that is copyrighted, not discrete facts embedded >within it. So, if I write a biography of my GGGG grandfather, Riggs >Pennington, you can't legally copy it and give it away or sell it, >but you can discover within that work that I believe Riggs was the >son of Timothy Pennington, that he was a land surveryor and he died >in Texas after living in KY, IN and IL, and you are perfectly free to >use those bits of information any way you like. If you properly cite >your source, you're doing good genealogy research, but even if you >don't it's not illegal to use the information itself. Remember that >ethics, law and rules of research are three different things, even >though they overlap in many areas. > >Look, I didn't write this law, and I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not >even writing this as a PRA representative. I'm not on the PRA Board, >I don't make policy for the group. I'm simply trying to provide some >information to this group (and the PRA Board) about the law that I've >had to acquire (and abide by, and expect others to abide by) in my >business as a publisher. It's really pretty simple. If you don't >own something, you can't give it away without stealing it unless you >have the owner's permission to do so. Intellectual property is still >property, just like personal property or real property. If you take >the results of someone's work, whether it is from a writer or a >woodcarver or a car manufacturer, and give it to someone else without >paying the maker (or the maker's distributor) for it and without the >maker's permission, you're guilty of theft regardless of whether you >made a profit on it or not. The confusion arises in the case of >intellectual property because the law actually allows one to do this >in a limited way under certain conditions, but if you don't meet >those conditions you are violating the law. > >The PRA board is trying very hard to understand how to make the >literature they've published over the past 30-40 years available and >still be legal and not bankrupt the organization by reproducing >material without compensation. Progress really is happening, but >remember this is a volunteer organization, and that sometimes makes >things take longer than if it was a commercial outfit doing it. > >Katherine > > > >>I suppose the libraries are breaking the law by having the copy >>machines there. Why, because what is there to copy in libraries but >>copyrighted works Sue already stated that she did not intend to >>distribute the material. Your splitting hairs here. >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> >>To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >>Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:52 AM >>Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information >> >> >> >Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court >> >on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, >> >mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than >> >to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and >> >distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold >> >copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't >> >mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research >> >is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that >> >copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") >> >is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. >> >The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you >> >could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by >> >making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. >> > >> >Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits >> >involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington >> >Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion >> >ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at >> >little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to >> >work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, >> >permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' >> >heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a >> >task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial >> >undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even >> >using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs >> >involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do >> >not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP >> >articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the >> >authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other >> >people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your >> >help would be welcome, too. >> > >> >Katherine >> > >> > >> >>Katherine Cochrane wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Sue, >> >> > >> >> > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking >>the law? >> >> > >> >> > Katherine >> >> > >> >> > >Hello, >> >> > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered >>their >> >> > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information >>in the >> >> > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that >>material from >> >> > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read >>through >> >> > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the >>family. An >> >> > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my >>husband's >> >> > >lines. You just never know what you may find! >> >> > > >> >> > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could >>not be >> >> > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington >>officers, or >> >> > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. >>Most >> >> > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very >>few that >> >> > >are only "takers." >> >> > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is >>completely >> >> > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues >>that might >> >> > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? >> >> > > >> >> > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid >>money to >> >> > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group >>because of >> >> > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library >>where >> >> > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as >>they wish. >> >> > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and >>there is >> >> > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books >>and >> >> > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with >>how this >> >> > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join >>your >> >> > >organization? >> >> > > >> >> > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come >>up with >> >> > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all >>of the >> >> > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! >> >> > >Sue >> >> > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at >> >> > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org >> >> > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the >>PRA web site >> >> > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. >> >> > >__________________________________________________________ >> >> > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. >> >> > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net >> >> > > or via e-mail at [email protected] >> >> > >> >> > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >> >> > Do not post virus warnings on this list. >> >> > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are >>expecting >> >> > For addition virus info see >>http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or >> >> > http://www.mcafee.com/ >> >> >> >>I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was >>that >> >>if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend >>to >> >>turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not >>writing a >> >>book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see >>people >> >>lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I >>like to >> >>have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare >>it, >> >>etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in >>front of >> >>you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. >>It's >> >>great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling >>anyone to >> >>make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. >> >>Sue >> >> >> >> >> >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >> >>To search the archives of this mail list see >> >>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >> >>The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site >> >>http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! >> > >> > >> >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >> >The Pennington Research Association Web Site >> >http://penningtonresearch.org >> >for subscribe and unsub instructions, >> >follow the links to e-mail group. >> > >> >> >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >>Happy Holidays > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >This Pennington mail list is hosted by Rootsweb. >To subscribe to Rootsweb, and show your support of their efforts, see >http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html >

I am in hopes this reaches all researches. I have written and published one book of genealogy. I take copies of my book to each and every library in the counties, and have sent some out to others, from which I received any genealogical information. Thus my book is available to copy from in the library. I owe this much to the people who, before me, have made contributions. I am thankful to them. We should always feel this way. My grandmother always said anything shared is as good as Love. We need to share , not invade , mind you, but share with each other. Happy Holidays to all my friends out there. May you always stay in God's shadow. Sadie Stamper Greer -----Original Message----- From: William Penington <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information >I suppose the libraries are breaking the law by having the copy >machines there. Why, because what is there to copy in libraries but >copyrighted works Sue already stated that she did not intend to >distribute the material. Your splitting hairs here. >-----Original Message----- >From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:52 AM >Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > > >>Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court >>on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, >>mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than >>to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and >>distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold >>copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't >>mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research >>is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that >>copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") >>is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. >>The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you >>could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by >>making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. >> >>Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits >>involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington >>Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion >>ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at >>little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to >>work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, >>permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' >>heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a >>task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial >>undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even >>using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs >>involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do >>not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP >>articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the >>authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other >>people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your >>help would be welcome, too. >> >>Katherine >> >> >>>Katherine Cochrane wrote: >>> > >>> > Sue, >>> > >>> > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking >the law? >>> > >>> > Katherine >>> > >>> > >Hello, >>> > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered >their >>> > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information >in the >>> > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that >material from >>> > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read >through >>> > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the >family. An >>> > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my >husband's >>> > >lines. You just never know what you may find! >>> > > >>> > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could >not be >>> > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington >officers, or >>> > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. >Most >>> > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very >few that >>> > >are only "takers." >>> > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is >completely >>> > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues >that might >>> > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? >>> > > >>> > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid >money to >>> > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group >because of >>> > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library >where >>> > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as >they wish. >>> > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and >there is >>> > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books >and >>> > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with >how this >>> > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join >your >>> > >organization? >>> > > >>> > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come >up with >>> > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all >of the >>> > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! >>> > >Sue >>> > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at >>> > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org >>> > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the >PRA web site >>> > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. >>> > >__________________________________________________________ >>> > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. >>> > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net >>> > > or via e-mail at [email protected] >>> > >>> > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >>> > Do not post virus warnings on this list. >>> > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are >expecting >>> > For addition virus info see >http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or >>> > http://www.mcafee.com/ >>> >>>I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was >that >>>if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend >to >>>turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not >writing a >>>book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see >people >>>lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I >like to >>>have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare >it, >>>etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in >front of >>>you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. >It's >>>great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling >anyone to >>>make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. >>>Sue >>> >>> >>>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >>>To search the archives of this mail list see >>>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >>>The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site >>>http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! >> >> >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >>The Pennington Research Association Web Site >>http://penningtonresearch.org >>for subscribe and unsub instructions, >>follow the links to e-mail group. >> > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >Happy Holidays >

gee,a lawyer that makes sense,hes right on tho,When you do a term paper you add your credits,you use many sources, you don`t pay any of them,as long as you don`t claim it to be yours totally you are ok.people who raise these issues are usually some wanna be author,do your research,give credit where due,& tell me when the first amateur geneologist you know gets sued.merry christmas. People who try to keep other people from sharing,should not be left on the list. ----- Original Message ----- From: "RJMRAZIK" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 4:54 AM Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > I have watched this exchange with interest and now will add my "two cents > worth", for whatever it's worth! :-) > It should be noted that I always do my very best to live within the laws of > our society. > First of all I have no intention of having the information, I am collecting > by various means, on my family history published. However, I do most > certainly plan to share any information with any interested family member! > I feel it is OUR Family History and we should ALL be entitled to it > regardless of our station in life! > I can not even begin to tell you how disgusting I find the division in our > society between "the haves and the have nots!" > At the same time I feel any source I use should absolutely be given credit > for the information they have collected, as they have assisted my research! > So now, I've shared my views on the subject.... For whatever it's worth.... > I hope everyone on the list has a wonderful Christmas and New Year filled > with all those things they hold dearest in their hearts! > Peggy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 6:50 AM > Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > > > > Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court > > on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, > > mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than > > to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and > > distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold > > copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't > > mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research > > is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that > > copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") > > is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. > > The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you > > could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by > > making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. > > > > Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits > > involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington > > Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion > > ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at > > little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to > > work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, > > permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' > > heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a > > task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial > > undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even > > using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs > > involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do > > not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP > > articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the > > authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other > > people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your > > help would be welcome, too. > > > > Katherine > > > > > > >Katherine Cochrane wrote: > > > > > > > > Sue, > > > > > > > > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking the > law? > > > > > > > > Katherine > > > > > > > > >Hello, > > > > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their > > > > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in > the > > > > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material > from > > > > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through > > > > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. > An > > > > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's > > > > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > > > > > > > > > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be > > > > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, > or > > > > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. > Most > > > > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few > that > > > > >are only "takers." > > > > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is > completely > > > > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that > might > > > > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > > > > > > > > > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money > to > > > > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because > of > > > > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where > > > > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they > wish. > > > > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there > is > > > > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and > > > > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how > this > > > > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your > > > > >organization? > > > > > > > > > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up > with > > > > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of > the > > > > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > > > > >Sue > > > > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > > > > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > > > > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the PRA > web site > > > > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. > > > > >__________________________________________________________ > > > > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > > > > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > > > > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > > > > > > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > > > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > > > > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are > expecting > > > > For addition virus info see http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > > > > http://www.mcafee.com/ > > > > > >I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was that > > >if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend to > > >turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not writing a > > >book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see people > > >lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I like to > > >have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare it, > > >etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in front of > > >you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. It's > > >great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling anyone to > > >make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. > > >Sue > > > > > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > >To search the archives of this mail list see > > >http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > > >The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site > > >http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! > > > > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > The Pennington Research Association Web Site > > http://penningtonresearch.org > > for subscribe and unsub instructions, > > follow the links to e-mail group. > > > > ______________________________

Hello Mary, The Group numbers as assigned by PRA have no particular significance except that the number was the next available unused number when the group was designated. Below is a quotation from the PRA website: "In an effort to facilitate the concentration of research and make communication easier between Pennington researchers, the PRA has labeled distinctly different lines of descendants that have been researched. The Group numbers are not absolute as new evidence is uncovered that changes the educated conclusions of the researchers, the Group numbers and names change." Happy Holidays to All! Bobby Pennington PRA Group VI http://www.members.home.net/bobpenn1/ [email protected] wrote: > > Merry Christmas to ALL: > I am in group 6, does it lead off of group 5 and group 7 from group 6 and so > on and so forth, or am I trying to put something together that is not there, > I hope someone understands what I mean, I'm not sure myself. ~Mary

I probably shouldn't add my .02 since I have not renewed my dues to the PRA and I don't usually contribute much to this mail list, mainly because it rarely touches on any of my Penningtons. However, I did send a copy of all my Pennington research (descendents of Joshua Pennington, Richard's alleged brother) to John French before he passed away. I don't know how, when or where my submitted information goes or where it will end up or who may eventually benefit from it or enjoy it. And I don't care.. This is supposed to be fun, family-oriented hobby. Get a life and lighten up. And I don't mean that flippantly I mean that in all earnestnes. If you are more concerned with lawyers and copyrights than enjoying the search for your ancestors, you are in this for the wrong reasons. Merry Christmas to all! Wilfred Pennington ---------- > From: RJMRAZIK <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 4:54 AM > > I have watched this exchange with interest and now will add my "two cents > worth", for whatever it's worth! :-) > It should be noted that I always do my very best to live within the laws of > our society. > First of all I have no intention of having the information, I am collecting > by various means, on my family history published. However, I do most > certainly plan to share any information with any interested family member! > I feel it is OUR Family History and we should ALL be entitled to it > regardless of our station in life! > I can not even begin to tell you how disgusting I find the division in our > society between "the haves and the have nots!" > At the same time I feel any source I use should absolutely be given credit > for the information they have collected, as they have assisted my research! > So now, I've shared my views on the subject.... For whatever it's worth.... > I hope everyone on the list has a wonderful Christmas and New Year filled > with all those things they hold dearest in their hearts! > Peggy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 6:50 AM > Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > > > > Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court > > on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, > > mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than > > to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and > > distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold > > copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't > > mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research > > is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that > > copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") > > is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. > > The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you > > could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by > > making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. > > > > Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits > > involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington > > Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion > > ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at > > little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to > > work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, > > permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' > > heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a > > task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial > > undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even > > using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs > > involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do > > not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP > > articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the > > authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other > > people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your > > help would be welcome, too. > > > > Katherine > > > > > > >Katherine Cochrane wrote: > > > > > > > > Sue, > > > > > > > > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking the > law? > > > > > > > > Katherine > > > > > > > > >Hello, > > > > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their > > > > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in > the > > > > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material > from > > > > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through > > > > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. > An > > > > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's > > > > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > > > > > > > > > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be > > > > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, > or > > > > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. > Most > > > > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few > that > > > > >are only "takers." > > > > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is > completely > > > > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that > might > > > > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > > > > > > > > > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money > to > > > > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because > of > > > > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where > > > > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they > wish. > > > > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there > is > > > > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and > > > > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how > this > > > > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your > > > > >organization? > > > > > > > > > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up > with > > > > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of > the > > > > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > > > > >Sue > > > > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > > > > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > > > > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the PRA > web site > > > > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. > > > > >__________________________________________________________ > > > > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > > > > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > > > > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > > > > > > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > > > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > > > > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are > expecting > > > > For addition virus info see http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > > > > http://www.mcafee.com/ > > > > > >I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was that > > >if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend to > > >turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not writing a > > >book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see people > > >lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I like to > > >have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare it, > > >etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in front of > > >you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. It's > > >great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling anyone to > > >make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. > > >Sue > > > > > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > >To search the archives of this mail list see > > >http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > > >The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site > > >http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! > > > > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > The Pennington Research Association Web Site > > http://penningtonresearch.org > > for subscribe and unsub instructions, > > follow the links to e-mail group. > > > > > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > Happy Holidays >

William, Please re-read my earlier message. Making one copy for personal or scholarly research is authorized under the Fair Use clause of the Copyright act. When libraries make a copy for someone (say, for InterLibrary Loan), they are doing that as the agent of the researcher, which is also covered under Fair Use (libraries are specifically mentioned in the Act). Someone may not plan to distribute anything she's given, but if someone other than the author, copyright holder (author, author's heirs or publisher who has a copyright) makes those copies and gives them to her, that person is doing distribution. By asking someone to do that, one is asking them to break the law, and becomes an accessory to an illegal action. There is a way around all this mess -- if someone reads an article and quotes small portions of it, or rephrases the facts (citing the original author as their source, of course), that's called research or scholarship, and is perfectly within the law. It is the EXPRESSION of a work that is copyrighted, not discrete facts embedded within it. So, if I write a biography of my GGGG grandfather, Riggs Pennington, you can't legally copy it and give it away or sell it, but you can discover within that work that I believe Riggs was the son of Timothy Pennington, that he was a land surveryor and he died in Texas after living in KY, IN and IL, and you are perfectly free to use those bits of information any way you like. If you properly cite your source, you're doing good genealogy research, but even if you don't it's not illegal to use the information itself. Remember that ethics, law and rules of research are three different things, even though they overlap in many areas. Look, I didn't write this law, and I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not even writing this as a PRA representative. I'm not on the PRA Board, I don't make policy for the group. I'm simply trying to provide some information to this group (and the PRA Board) about the law that I've had to acquire (and abide by, and expect others to abide by) in my business as a publisher. It's really pretty simple. If you don't own something, you can't give it away without stealing it unless you have the owner's permission to do so. Intellectual property is still property, just like personal property or real property. If you take the results of someone's work, whether it is from a writer or a woodcarver or a car manufacturer, and give it to someone else without paying the maker (or the maker's distributor) for it and without the maker's permission, you're guilty of theft regardless of whether you made a profit on it or not. The confusion arises in the case of intellectual property because the law actually allows one to do this in a limited way under certain conditions, but if you don't meet those conditions you are violating the law. The PRA board is trying very hard to understand how to make the literature they've published over the past 30-40 years available and still be legal and not bankrupt the organization by reproducing material without compensation. Progress really is happening, but remember this is a volunteer organization, and that sometimes makes things take longer than if it was a commercial outfit doing it. Katherine >I suppose the libraries are breaking the law by having the copy >machines there. Why, because what is there to copy in libraries but >copyrighted works Sue already stated that she did not intend to >distribute the material. Your splitting hairs here. >-----Original Message----- >From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:52 AM >Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > > > >Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court > >on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, > >mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than > >to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and > >distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold > >copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't > >mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research > >is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that > >copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") > >is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. > >The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you > >could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by > >making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. > > > >Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits > >involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington > >Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion > >ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at > >little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to > >work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, > >permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' > >heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a > >task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial > >undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even > >using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs > >involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do > >not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP > >articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the > >authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other > >people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your > >help would be welcome, too. > > > >Katherine > > > > > >>Katherine Cochrane wrote: > >> > > >> > Sue, > >> > > >> > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking >the law? > >> > > >> > Katherine > >> > > >> > >Hello, > >> > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered >their > >> > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information >in the > >> > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that >material from > >> > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read >through > >> > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the >family. An > >> > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my >husband's > >> > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > >> > > > >> > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could >not be > >> > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington >officers, or > >> > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. >Most > >> > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very >few that > >> > >are only "takers." > >> > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is >completely > >> > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues >that might > >> > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > >> > > > >> > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid >money to > >> > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group >because of > >> > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library >where > >> > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as >they wish. > >> > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and >there is > >> > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books >and > >> > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with >how this > >> > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join >your > >> > >organization? > >> > > > >> > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come >up with > >> > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all >of the > >> > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > >> > >Sue > >> > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > >> > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > >> > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the >PRA web site > >> > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. > >> > >__________________________________________________________ > >> > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > >> > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > >> > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > >> > > >> > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >> > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > >> > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are >expecting > >> > For addition virus info see >http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > >> > http://www.mcafee.com/ > >> > >>I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was >that > >>if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend >to > >>turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not >writing a > >>book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see >people > >>lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I >like to > >>have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare >it, > >>etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in >front of > >>you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. >It's > >>great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling >anyone to > >>make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. > >>Sue > >> > >> > >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >>To search the archives of this mail list see > >>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > >>The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site > >>http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! > > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >The Pennington Research Association Web Site > >http://penningtonresearch.org > >for subscribe and unsub instructions, > >follow the links to e-mail group. > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >Happy Holidays

At 09:52 AM 12/24/99, William Penington wrote: >I suppose the libraries are breaking the law by having the copy >machines there. Why, because what is there to copy in libraries but >copyrighted works Sue already stated that she did not intend to >distribute the material. Your splitting hairs here. As one who's made his living from copyright for more than 50 years now (I'm a writer) I agree that there's hair-splitting here, but I don't think it's the same hair you seem to have in mind. I don't know of any library at which the librarian will make your copies for you. The exception in the law is for _personal_ use of the copy, so you must make your own copies. THAT, I believe, is the hair in question. When it comes to scanning in copyrighted material and sending it to a relative, that's on the same level as the librarian making your copies, and so is technically illegal. Nevertheless I don't think the spirit of the law is being violated when I make a copy for someone else, or ask someone else to make a copy of some small part of a work for me. In fact, the legalese that Broderbund puts onto their World Family Tree CDs directly addresses the point, and authorizes the licensee to make a _limited_ copy for transmission to an individual for non-commercial purposes, while prohibiting mass copying or commercial use of the data! Seems to me that a similar disclaimer could be applied to most all of our copyrighted data, thus preventing many future problems. Of course, that cannot solve the problems already present. However it seems to me that the copyright owner (which is, I presume, the PRA) has the legal right to post the already published information on web pages, with restricted access, and put such a license on the use of those pages. The success of subscription organizations such as ancestry.com and others indicates that such an approach might well be self sustaining! --jk-- mailto:[email protected] Visit me at http://www.jimkyle.com

I suppose the libraries are breaking the law by having the copy machines there. Why, because what is there to copy in libraries but copyrighted works Sue already stated that she did not intend to distribute the material. Your splitting hairs here. -----Original Message----- From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:52 AM Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information >Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court >on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, >mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than >to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and >distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold >copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't >mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research >is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that >copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") >is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. >The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you >could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by >making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. > >Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits >involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington >Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion >ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at >little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to >work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, >permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' >heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a >task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial >undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even >using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs >involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do >not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP >articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the >authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other >people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your >help would be welcome, too. > >Katherine > > >>Katherine Cochrane wrote: >> > >> > Sue, >> > >> > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking the law? >> > >> > Katherine >> > >> > >Hello, >> > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their >> > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in the >> > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material from >> > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through >> > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. An >> > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's >> > >lines. You just never know what you may find! >> > > >> > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be >> > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, or >> > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. Most >> > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few that >> > >are only "takers." >> > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is completely >> > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that might >> > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? >> > > >> > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money to >> > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because of >> > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where >> > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they wish. >> > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there is >> > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and >> > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how this >> > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your >> > >organization? >> > > >> > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up with >> > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of the >> > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! >> > >Sue >> > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at >> > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org >> > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the PRA web site >> > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. >> > >__________________________________________________________ >> > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. >> > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net >> > > or via e-mail at [email protected] >> > >> > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >> > Do not post virus warnings on this list. >> > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are expecting >> > For addition virus info see http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or >> > http://www.mcafee.com/ >> >>I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was that >>if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend to >>turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not writing a >>book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see people >>lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I like to >>have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare it, >>etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in front of >>you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. It's >>great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling anyone to >>make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. >>Sue >> >> >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >>To search the archives of this mail list see >>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >>The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site >>http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >The Pennington Research Association Web Site >http://penningtonresearch.org >for subscribe and unsub instructions, >follow the links to e-mail group. >

Merry Christmas to ALL: I am in group 6, does it lead off of group 5 and group 7 from group 6 and so on and so forth, or am I trying to put something together that is not there, I hope someone understands what I mean, I'm not sure myself. ~Mary

Dear God, So far today I've done all right. I haven't gossiped or lost my temper. I haven't been greedy or grumpy or nasty or selfish or over indulgent, and I'm very thankful for that. But God, in a few minutes, I'm going to get out of bed and from then on I'm probably going to need a lot more help. Amen MERRY CHRISTMAS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! LUV TO ALL, Pam

I have watched this exchange with interest and now will add my "two cents worth", for whatever it's worth! :-) It should be noted that I always do my very best to live within the laws of our society. First of all I have no intention of having the information, I am collecting by various means, on my family history published. However, I do most certainly plan to share any information with any interested family member! I feel it is OUR Family History and we should ALL be entitled to it regardless of our station in life! I can not even begin to tell you how disgusting I find the division in our society between "the haves and the have nots!" At the same time I feel any source I use should absolutely be given credit for the information they have collected, as they have assisted my research! So now, I've shared my views on the subject.... For whatever it's worth.... I hope everyone on the list has a wonderful Christmas and New Year filled with all those things they hold dearest in their hearts! Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Friday, December 24, 1999 6:50 AM Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court > on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, > mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than > to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and > distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold > copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't > mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research > is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that > copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") > is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. > The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you > could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by > making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. > > Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits > involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington > Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion > ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at > little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to > work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, > permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' > heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a > task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial > undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even > using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs > involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do > not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP > articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the > authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other > people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your > help would be welcome, too. > > Katherine > > > >Katherine Cochrane wrote: > > > > > > Sue, > > > > > > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking the law? > > > > > > Katherine > > > > > > >Hello, > > > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their > > > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in the > > > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material from > > > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through > > > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. An > > > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's > > > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > > > > > > > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be > > > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, or > > > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. Most > > > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few that > > > >are only "takers." > > > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is completely > > > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that might > > > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > > > > > > > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money to > > > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because of > > > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where > > > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they wish. > > > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there is > > > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and > > > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how this > > > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your > > > >organization? > > > > > > > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up with > > > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of the > > > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > > > >Sue > > > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > > > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > > > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the PRA web site > > > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. > > > >__________________________________________________________ > > > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > > > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > > > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > > > > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > > > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are expecting > > > For addition virus info see http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > > > http://www.mcafee.com/ > > > >I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was that > >if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend to > >turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not writing a > >book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see people > >lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I like to > >have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare it, > >etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in front of > >you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. It's > >great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling anyone to > >make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. > >Sue > > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >To search the archives of this mail list see > >http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > >The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site > >http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > The Pennington Research Association Web Site > http://penningtonresearch.org > for subscribe and unsub instructions, > follow the links to e-mail group. >

Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in court on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with it, mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators than to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal research is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking that copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or "distributing") is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or not. The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, you could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS discussion ongoing about how to make information from back issues available at little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time to work out the details. One complication is that to observe the law, permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the authors' heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite a task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that even using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some costs involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone do not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate the authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. Other people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure your help would be welcome, too. Katherine >Katherine Cochrane wrote: > > > > Sue, > > > > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking the law? > > > > Katherine > > > > >Hello, > > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their > > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in the > > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material from > > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through > > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. An > > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's > > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > > > > > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be > > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, or > > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. Most > > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few that > > >are only "takers." > > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is completely > > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that might > > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > > > > > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money to > > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because of > > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where > > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they wish. > > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there is > > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and > > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how this > > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your > > >organization? > > > > > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up with > > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of the > > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > > >Sue > > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the PRA web site > > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. > > >__________________________________________________________ > > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > > > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are expecting > > For addition virus info see http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > > http://www.mcafee.com/ > >I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was that >if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend to >turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not writing a >book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see people >lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I like to >have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare it, >etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in front of >you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. It's >great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling anyone to >make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. >Sue > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >To search the archives of this mail list see >http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl >The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site >http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark!

Katherine Cochrane wrote: > > Sue, > > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking the law? > > Katherine > > >Hello, > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in the > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material from > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. An > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > > > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, or > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. Most > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few that > >are only "takers." > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is completely > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that might > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > > > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money to > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because of > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they wish. > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there is > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how this > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your > >organization? > > > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up with > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of the > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > >Sue > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the PRA web site > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. > >__________________________________________________________ > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you are expecting > For addition virus info see http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > http://www.mcafee.com/ I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said was that if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't intend to turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not writing a book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see people lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I like to have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to compare it, etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in front of you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. It's great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling anyone to make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. Sue

Sue, So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate breaking the law? Katherine >Hello, >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in the >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material from >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. An >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's >lines. You just never know what you may find! > >I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, or >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. Most >researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few that >are only "takers." >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is completely >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that might >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money to >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because of >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they wish. >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there is >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how this >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your >organization? > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up with >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of the >help, and have a Merry Christmas! >Sue >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > http://www.penningtonresearch.org >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on the PRA web site >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the author. >__________________________________________________________ > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > or via e-mail at [email protected]

Hello, I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that offered their help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the information in the older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that material from one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to read through what some of the previous researchers had to say about the family. An unexpected surprise was some information on another of my husband's lines. You just never know what you may find! I did receive one email telling me that the information could not be sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington officers, or the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy here. Most researchers "share" their information. I've run across very few that are only "takers." That information in the older issues, for the most part, is completely lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all issues that might contain a few pages, but at what cost? Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who paid money to join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group because of copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any library where issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages as they wish. No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., and there is usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from books and periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem with how this is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to join your organization? Just a little something you might want to think about, and come up with a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for all of the help, and have a Merry Christmas! Sue

Did you happen to notice that on E Bay Auction they have what they call family group sheets for sale. There are a lot of surnames being offered for sale all of a sudden. Now they have one for Pennington # 225135039. Wonder what that is...Joy

Maurine, This is in response to your query of Dec. 22 regarding Edmond D. Pennington. I believe that you are a member of Group V. There is an Edmund Pennington who is the son of John Pennington and Nancy Harris. Give me you linage back to Edmund and I should be able to tell if you are in Group V. The information I have is that Edmund died in 1900 in Douglas Co. MO.if this is the same as your Edmund. Ewin Kiser -----Original Message----- From: Maurine Johnson [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 11:32 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PENNINGTON-L] Capt. Edmond D Pennington I am trying to figure out which family group I belong in. My great-great-great grandfather was Capt. Edmond D. Pennington who served in the Civil War from Missouri or Tennessee. This is the oldest relative I have been able to locate. Any assistance is much appreciated. -- Maurine Johnson [email protected] ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== Happy Holidays

I just visited a couple of interesting sites listed in the latest issue of "Missing Links" from RootsWeb. I thought you may enjoy them as well. The first link is the home page of the Chahta and Choctaw. Click on the underlined URL if your browser supports this feature or enter the URL as listed ---->http://freepages.cultures.rootsweb.com/~choctaw/ . There are several greats links for mailing lists and other resources including a page that is "... is intended to help those in search of their Native American Ancestry where the Five Civilized Tribes are concerned. The Five Civilized Tribes are Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek, Cherokee, and Seminole. With the exception of the Cherokee, all of the above are of the Muskoghean linguistic stock". Click on the underlined URL if your browser supports this feature or enter the URL as listed ----> http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/2765/ . Happy Holidays! Gene Pennington (Group 7) Research Director Pennington Research Association www.penningtonresearch.org

Dear Bill, In response to your query about Susannah Pennington who is buried in Wolf Creek Cemetery in Whitely County, KY. This is, I believe, Susannah (Nossman) Pennington, daughter of John Nossman and wife of William Pennington, Jr., son of William Pennington, Sr. (c1755-1821) of Monroe County, VA/WV and progenitor of the Pennington Research Association's Family Group 26. Susannah and William's marriage is recorded in Monroe County and they are listed on the 1810 census of that county; they are recorded in Whitely County by 1812 and are enumerated on the Whitley County census of 1820. Susannah's husband and sister-in-law, Elizabeth (Pennington) Ellison (and family) and brother-in-law, Andrew Pennington, lived in the Clear Fork area of Whitley County. Andrew died in the 1830s; Susannah's husband, William, and Elizabeth (Pennington) Ellison lived there until their deaths. Both are listed on federal censuses throughout their lives. Whitley County deeds provide a clear picture of where these families lived during this period. I have lots of documentation for this family; if you are interested, I'll be happy to pass it along. Ric Blake PRA Family Group 26 Leader 123 Fieldstone Drive, Londonderry, NH 03053-2709 / 603-434-4932 - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------- In a message dated 2/12/99 7:24:44 PM, [email protected] writes: >In my wanderings I have come across a cemetery listing of SUSANNAH >PENNINGTON at Wolf Creek Cemetery located at the Wolf Creek Baptist >Church on Highway 628 about 2-3 miles west of I-75 in Whitley Co., KY. >No information appears on the grave marker other than her name and the >date of death which is 13 October, 1834. There are no other Penningtons >listed as being buried at the cemetery and there are no related family >names shown.. This discovery could be of significance if it could be >determined that this Susannah is the Susannah Kelly who married Elijah >Pennington in 1800. The Elijah who married Susannah Kelly was the son >of Micajah Pennington and Rachael Jones Pennington. The 1800 marriage >of Susannah and Elijah was in the Ashe Co., NC area and very little if >anything is known of Elijah after 1800. He was born in 1761 and may >have been married to some other lady before he met Susannah. If this >Susannah is Susannah Kelly (which admittedly is a long shot) it would >show that she apparently spent some of her life in Whitley County which >would likely indicate a relationship to other Whitley County >Penningtons, and particularly Wells Pennington who moved his family >through Whitley County during the years ca 1818 to 1828. I have >speculated that Elijah Pennington might have been the father of Wells. >I would certainly welcome comments especially from anyone who might have >an ID on this Whitley County Siusannah. Bill Pennington, PRA Group 31