Roger, Did your Kitchener family move back to PA, perhaps under the name Kitchen? I know someone researching the names Kitchen which was to have been Kitchener. Betty Blair -----Original Message----- From: Roger <rbstorm@becon.org> To: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:45 PM Subject: Re: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web >I'm Canadian and PA Dutch. >Having trouble with the statement presented here. My ancestors left the Penn >area during the American Revolution to travel to Canada because they were >having trouble with the English? These people are called United Empire >Loyalists (UEL). >Then why go to Canada that was controlled by the English? I think that >American patriotism is turning this statement around. They refused to give >allegiance to the Yankees so they left for Canada and their lands were >confiscated by the Americans. We PA's are all through Canada but the >Kitchener >area has a large Amish community that still use horse and buggies >As an interesting addage to this about 5 years ago the U.S. government tried >to inflict their authority on Canadian companies with some assets in the >States. They were threatening to confiscate these assets from any company >that was doing business with Cuba. An elected Member of Parliament >retailiated by tabling a bill confiscating all assets of American companies >doing business in Canada until all United Empire Loyalists descendants were >compensated for any lost property during the American Revolution. Niether >bill was passed or made into law. >Roger Storm > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Betty Blair <blair8535@nbn.net> >To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:57 PM >Subject: Re: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > >| I have been told they did move to Canada because they >| did not condone war and the English did confiscated their >| homes and goods when they did not swear allegiance. >| But I don't know for certain. >| >| -----Original Message----- >| From: Pat Ratcliff <pratclif@topsurf.com> >| To: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> >| Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 2:00 PM >| Subject: Re: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web >| >| >| >Thanks for clarifying this. Are there any records of Pennsylvania Dutch >| >migrating to Canada? My Gra(y)bills were listed as from Holland when an >| >ancestor answered a census taker about where his family came from. He >| >told them that they were Pennsylvania Dutch. >| > >| >Pat Ratcliff >| >Baumholder, Germany >| >Researching >| >Ratcliff/Grabill/Button/DeWitt/Hicks/Liebler/Tuttle/Main/Touchstone/Butt >| >s/Knight/Clough/Worthley/Yarrow/Burchett >| >http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/r/a/t/Patricia-Louise-Ratcliff >| >----- Original Message ----- >| >From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> >| >To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> >| >Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:58 AM >| >Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web >| > >| > >| >> >| >> >| >> >| >> >| >> >| >> PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: >| >> Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were >| >Lutherans. >| >> German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their >| >own, the >| >> latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German >| >speaking >| >> Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, >| >spoke >| >> different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also >| >German >| >> Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the >| >various >| >> Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. >| >> >| >> The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the >| >Netherlands, >| >> nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first >| >applied to >| >> German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late >| >eighteenth >| >> century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several >| >theories >| >> exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a >| >descendant of >| >> the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and >| >sixteenth >| >> centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as >| >Dutch >| >> regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. >| >"Deutsche" >| >> is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have >| >> resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed >| >to >| >> America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have >| >lead to >| >> the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a >| >> regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor >| >pidgin >| >> (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). >| >> >| >> >| >> Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? >| >> A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from >| >> the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the >| >> Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania >| >German. >| >> Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the >| >term >| >> Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning >| >before 1800. >| >> The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but >| >were a >| >> loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and >| >> confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into >| >being in >| >> 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas >| >before >| >> 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, >| >> Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more >| >formal >| >> definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America >| >from >| >> those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those >| >that came >| >> after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just >| >German >| >> immigrants. >| >> >| >> <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, >| >Swiss, >| >> Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. >| >What >| >> makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in >| >Philadelphia >| >> no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had >| >begun) and >| >> lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, >| >WV, or >| >> further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of >| >> Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German >| >government or >| >> flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be >| >Pennsylvanians and >| >> NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving >| >after >| >> 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> >| >> >| >> >| >> Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? >| >> >| >> The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states >| >and >| >> Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 >| >people >| >> live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, >| >family and >| >> community, and separation from the world. >| >> Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania >| >Dutch are >| >> not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, >| >> particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, >| >they >| >> are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly >| >German >| >> background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or >| >German). >| >> They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry >| >> >| >> >| >> >| >> ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >| >> New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH >| >> are gladly advertised here. >| >> >| >> >| >> ============================== >| >> Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >| >> http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >| >> >| > >| > >| >==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >| >New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH >| >are gladly advertised here. >| > >| > >| >============================== >| >Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >| >http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >| > >| >| >| ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >| Welcome to our list! We are always friendly here. >| >| >| ============================== >| Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history >| learning and how-to articles on the Internet. >| http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library >| > > > >==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >Abbreviations---PD=Pennsylvania Dutch, PMH=Pennsylvania Mennonite Heritage magazine, MFH=Mennonite family History magazine, MRJ=Mennonite Research Journal, LMHS=Lancaster Mennonite Hist. Society. > > >============================== >Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 >Source for Family History Online. Go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB >