PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). Q.     Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? A.      The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German immigrants. <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and community, and separation from the world. Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry

Good information--Thanks. Our Klums have been arguing over the Deutsch or Dutch ancestry for some time. Have been told the early immigrants were "patroons." Am still looking for ancestors and descendancy of William and Jacob Clum/Klum b. VT, 1795 and 1797. Pat Hart Klum

The following e-mail is of great interest to me. I have a problem with my ggrandmothers name. Also I have met a gentleman that has the same problem with a female in his tree. Both used the name Palmer when they were married for the first time but gave the name McFarland as their maiden name when they had children. My Armenia also was listed as Mary. I am most interested in the specifics of the tradition of a German girl being given their mothers name plus one of their own usually a godmother. Are we talking about first names and last names? Janet ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > > > > > PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: > Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. > German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the > latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking > Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke > different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German > Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various > Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. > > The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, > nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to > German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth > century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories > exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of > the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth > centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch > regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" > is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have > resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to > America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to > the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a > regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin > (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). > > > Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? > A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from > the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the > Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. > Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term > Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. > The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a > loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and > confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in > 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before > 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, > Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal > definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from > those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came > after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German > immigrants. > > <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, > Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What > makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia > no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and > lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or > further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of > Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or > flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and > NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after > 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> > > > Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? > > The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and > Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people > live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and > community, and separation from the world. > Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are > not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, > particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they > are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German > background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). > They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

Thanks for posting this information! It's very interesting and I'm sure all on the list will benefit from it. Jan Lund ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:58 PM Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German immigrants. <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and community, and separation from the world. Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry

Thank you, Markle Von! Accurate information and sweet reason are always a pleasure to find! Love and peace, Bettie ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:58 PM Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > > > > > PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: > Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. > German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the > latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking > Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke > different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German > Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various > Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. > > The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, > nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to > German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth > century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories > exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of > the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth > centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch > regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" > is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have > resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to > America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to > the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a > regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin > (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). > > > Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? > A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from > the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the > Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. > Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term > Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. > The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a > loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and > confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in > 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before > 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, > Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal > definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from > those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came > after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German > immigrants. > > <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, > Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What > makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia > no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and > lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or > further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of > Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or > flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and > NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after > 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> > > > Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? > > The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and > Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people > live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and > community, and separation from the world. > Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are > not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, > particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they > are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German > background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). > They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > >

Thanks for clarifying this. Are there any records of Pennsylvania Dutch migrating to Canada? My Gra(y)bills were listed as from Holland when an ancestor answered a census taker about where his family came from. He told them that they were Pennsylvania Dutch. Pat Ratcliff Baumholder, Germany Researching Ratcliff/Grabill/Button/DeWitt/Hicks/Liebler/Tuttle/Main/Touchstone/Butt s/Knight/Clough/Worthley/Yarrow/Burchett http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/r/a/t/Patricia-Louise-Ratcliff ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:58 AM Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > > > > > PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: > Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. > German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the > latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking > Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke > different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German > Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various > Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. > > The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, > nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to > German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth > century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories > exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of > the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth > centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch > regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" > is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have > resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to > America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to > the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a > regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin > (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). > > > Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? > A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from > the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the > Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. > Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term > Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. > The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a > loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and > confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in > 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before > 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, > Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal > definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from > those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came > after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German > immigrants. > > <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, > Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What > makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia > no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and > lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or > further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of > Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or > flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and > NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after > 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> > > > Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? > > The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and > Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people > live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and > community, and separation from the world. > Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are > not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, > particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they > are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German > background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). > They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >