That reminds me of Henry Kissinger, who always sounds to me as if he just got off the boat, but he came when he was about 12 I think - he went to high school in Brooklyn if you can believe it. But he has said that when he goes to Germany the Germans say he speaks German with an American accent. Jan Bettie Weyler wrote: > > This great little treatise reminds me of a friend from Jasper, Indiana, > whose family has lived here for several generations. He still switches from > English to German at will and, when relaxed, makes his English so accented > that you could believe he just got off the boat. He would assure you that > "Schwarzies" all come from Schwarzwald. > Bettie

Betty, My mother, born in 1904, 2nd or 3rd generation, told me she had to use a "deutsch" word occasionaly at aschool untilshe was 12 and finally had enough English. She lived at the top of Negro Mountain in Garrett County, MD. Bettie ----- Original Message ----- From: Betty Blair <blair8535@nbn.net> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:46 PM Subject: Re: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > Right, and even the Scots members of my family (who settled in the > Lancaster County area of PA about 1742) spoke PA Dutch and > English or PA Dutch as their "native" language. Many of the children > only learned English when they attended school. This was until about > 1920 - 1940's when their children were being ridiculed in school as > the "dumb Dutchies/Dutchmen", even by some teachers, so parents > taught their children English at home instead of PA Dutch. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: MarkleVon@aol.com <MarkleVon@aol.com> > To: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 11:00 PM > Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > > > > > > > > > > > > >PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: > >Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. > >German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the > >latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking > >Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke > >different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German > >Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various > >Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. > > > >The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, > >nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to > >German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth > >century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories > >exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of > >the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth > >centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch > >regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" > >is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have > >resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to > >America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to > >the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a > >regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin > >(a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). > > > > > >Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? > >A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from > >the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the > >Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. > >Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term > >Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. > >The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a > >loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and > >confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in > >1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before > >1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, > >Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal > >definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from > >those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came > >after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German > >immigrants. > > > ><!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, > >Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What > >makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia > >no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and > >lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or > >further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of > >Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or > >flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and > >NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after > >1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> > > > > > >Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? > > > >The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and > >Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people > >live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and > >community, and separation from the world. > >Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are > >not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, > >particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they > >are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German > >background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). > >They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry > > > > > > > >==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > >New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > >are gladly advertised here. > > > > > >============================== > >Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > >http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > The official webstie for this list is at: > http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/~padutch/ > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > >

Eva Marie, I have Rogers and Griffiths who came from Wales between 1850-1879, but they didn't go to PA. However, they were petite and dark-haired with ruddy complexions, as your Rogers were. Perhaps Black Dutch were early Welsh settlers to PA? Our family Bible had a weekly Welsh language newspaper in it from Utica, NY dated 1851. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Interesting. Could be a possibility. My ggrandfather was welsh and came to America. We are in the process now of doing the Griffith family tree. Will be interesting to see what turns up. hahahaha His daughter, my grandmother was Merwyn Sue Griffith, can't get anymore Welsh than that. hahaahaha Thanks for the information. Eva Marie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin B." <robinjb10@hotmail.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:36 AM Subject: [PADutch] Black Dutch=Welsh? > Eva Marie, I have Rogers and Griffiths who came from Wales between > 1850-1879, but they didn't go to PA. However, they were petite and > dark-haired with ruddy complexions, as your Rogers were. Perhaps Black > Dutch were early Welsh settlers to PA? Our family Bible had a weekly Welsh > language newspaper in it from Utica, NY dated 1851. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > Keep those PA DUTCH traditions alive and share them with the list. > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library >

My grandmother (descended from both Amish and Lutheran Germans) has always siad her grandmother called the family Black Dutch. Grandma said its because they were from the Black Forest areas of Switzerland and modern Bavaria... After years of research I discovered that they actually were! my 2 cents, Kelly Smith _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

This great little treatise reminds me of a friend from Jasper, Indiana, whose family has lived here for several generations. He still switches from English to German at will and, when relaxed, makes his English so accented that you could believe he just got off the boat. He would assure you that "Schwarzies" all come from Schwarzwald. Bettie ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 12:43 AM Subject: [PADutch] Black Dutch--Take your pick > BLACK DUTCH: > Some say that the term "Black Dutch" refers to Sephardie Jews who married > Dutch Protestants to escape the Inquisition, many of their descendants later > moving to the Americas, the "black" referring to their dark hair and > complexions; perhaps rarely, German immigrants from the Black Forest region, > e.g., "For the most part, the Black Dutch came after 1740." Others disagree > and say it is doubtful that the Black Dutch were of Jewish or (Holland) Dutch > heritage. > > Others say that no authoritative definition exists for this intriguing term. > There are strong indications that the original "Black Dutch'' were swarthy > complexioned Germans but Anglo-Americans loosely applied the term to any > dark-complexioned American of European descent. Some say the term was adopted > as an attempt to disguise Indian or tri-racial descent. > > By the mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a derogative > term for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring, working-class > status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign extraction. It has been > used as a derogatory expression labeling German Union troops in the Civil War. > > Another fanciful and widely circulated explanation about the "Black Dutch'' > is that they were Netherlanders of dark complexion who were descendants of > the Spanish who occupied The Netherlands in the late 16th century and early > 17th centuries, and intermarried with the blonde natives. However, the Dutch > government's Central Bureau for Genealogy, established as a state archive and > genealogical organization, is unable to offer an explanation for the term. > > Some genealogists have suggested that the Black Dutch were either an offshoot > of the Melungeons or one of the tri-racial isolate groups in Appalachia. > > > > > > > There are strong indications that the original "Black Dutch" were swarthy > complexioned Germans. > Anglo-Americans loosely applied the term to any dark-complexioned American of > European descent. > The term was adopted as an attempt to disguise Indian or infrequently, > tri-racial descent. > By the mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a derogative > term for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring, working-class > status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign extraction. Gordon McCann, > an Ozarks folklorist, speculates that "Black Dutch" might be a derogatory > expression labeling German Union troops in the Civil War. While Raymond G. > Matthews, a consultant at the Family History Library, says "it is doubtful > that the Black Dutch were of Jewish or [Holland] Dutch heritage (one popular > theory), and Dr. Arlene H. Eakle of the Genealogical Institute in Salt Lake > City stated there was "absolutely no Jewish culture tie-in" found during an > in-depth genealogical study of one line that family members claimed was > "Black Dutch." > > Another fanciful and widely circulated explanation about the "Black Dutch" is > that they were Netherlanders of dark complexion who were descendants of the > Spanish who occupied The Netherlands in the late 16th and early 17th > centuries, and intermarried with the blonde natives. However, the Dutch > government's Central Bureau for Genealogy, established as a state archive and > genealogical organization, is unable to offer an explanation for the term. > > > Jared Suess, the Family History Library's Swiss specialist, believes the t erm > "Black Dutch" probably was derived from those who came from areas in the > Schwarzwald, or Black Forest of Germany, which runs along Switzerland's > northern border. Back in the 1600s this forest covered a much larger area, > extending to Switzerland and Bavaria > > > > > > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library > >

Thank you, Markle Von! Accurate information and sweet reason are always a pleasure to find! Love and peace, Bettie ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:58 PM Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > > > > > PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: > Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. > German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the > latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking > Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke > different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German > Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various > Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. > > The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, > nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to > German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth > century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories > exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of > the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth > centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch > regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" > is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have > resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to > America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to > the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a > regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin > (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). > > > Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? > A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from > the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the > Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. > Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term > Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. > The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a > loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and > confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in > 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before > 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, > Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal > definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from > those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came > after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German > immigrants. > > <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, > Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What > makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia > no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and > lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or > further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of > Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or > flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and > NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after > 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> > > > Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? > > The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and > Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people > live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and > community, and separation from the world. > Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are > not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, > particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they > are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German > background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). > They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 > >

MiMi, Well, if you want to find out if your family belonged to the PA German Society, you may want to contact them -- they're located in Kutztown, PA (sorry, I don't have a good phone # -- call information). They may archive their membership information. About the witchcraft or pow wow -- though this was not black magic it was still very secret, and people did not necessarily discuss it. It was not information that would be written down in most cases. You'd probably have to go to the community where these family members lived, and try talking to some of the "old-timers." Pow wowing was still alive and well into the 20th century, and some locals may remember. Also, if your family had in their possession a book called "The Long Lost Friend" by Hohman there's a good chance that they were involved, at least superficially, in pow wow. Candace Perry ----- Original Message ----- From: <Crochetwitch@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:24 AM Subject: Re: [PADutch] and witchcraft >

American Indians at that time were present in great numbers in PA at that time. Wm. Penn and others worked with them. There are many references to all the activities in Histories of PA. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Betty Blair" <blair8535@nbn.net> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:28 AM Subject: Re: [PADutch] 1778 Oath of Allegiance | >please add to the list of blending of nationalities in pa.dutch country- | >american indian. believe it or not . | | Sure the original Americans were here and although they were mostly | gone by then, many of the ones who did not move were killed by diseases | and conflicts with the new settlers, there were documented intermarriages. | | The huge wave of German immigrants to south central PA caused land to | become scarce and prices to rise and there were periods of widespread | illnesses. Large groups of people moved west and south to settle the | wildernesses of what are now Ohio, the Carolinas, Tennessee and Kentucky | scattering families and ethnic groups. | | Seems to me that is what made America and it people so successful and unique; | our diverse yet blended heritage. | | | | | ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== | Haven't found a post of interest? Why not generate one of your own? Transcribed records get lots of appreciative readers. Or try a surname query you haven't posted in a while. | | | ============================== | Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! | http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 |

Candace How would you suggest I proceed with my research on my line and proving or disproving this theory. MiMi

Kelly this is the first time I have ever heard someone to say they were Black Dutch, define were they came from and actually be from there. This is new information for me. Thank you. This would match up with the Norman ancestors and would fit with the Rogers name. We know that Rogers is French and could be Dutch. Since that area was so mingled in the Norman time, it could have easily had a German pronunication. Something to look for. Thank you for your information. Eva Marie Rogers ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kelly Smith" <yadilla@hotmail.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 9:15 AM Subject: [PADutch] Black Dutch > My grandmother (descended from both Amish and Lutheran Germans) has always > siad her grandmother called the family Black Dutch. Grandma said its because > they were from the Black Forest areas of Switzerland and modern Bavaria... > After years of research I discovered that they actually were! > > > my 2 cents, > Kelly Smith > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > Abbreviations---PD=Pennsylvania Dutch, PMH=Pennsylvania Mennonite Heritage magazine, MFH=Mennonite family History magazine, MRJ=Mennonite Research Journal, LMHS=Lancaster Mennonite Hist. Society. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

You be one smart frauline

Mimi, You may be referring to the PA German Society. Also, PA German "witchcraft" may actually be "pow wow" which is a form of healing, not at all to be connected with the "black arts." Candace Perry Schwenkfelder Library & Heritage Center ----- Original Message ----- From: <Crochetwitch@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [PADutch] and witchcraft > I was told that our family were members of the PA Dutch/Deutch Society. I was > also told that our family was involved in witchcraft. Where would I look to > be able to prove disprove this information. Books, information available for > inter library loan etc. > > Thanks > MiMi > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB > >

Very interesting messages this morning defining PA-Dutch ancestry. Much of this needed to be shared with other listers. These various messages give us more insight into why Philadelphia is known as the "Cradle of Liberty", a place where different religions and ancestry were accepted. The Quakers were a major group in early Philadelphia, along with the Germans and Welsh. There was much intermarriage and the early Germans in that area (Philadelphia and Chester Counties) made an effort to adopt the English ways, in speech, mannerisms, food, etc. Many of the early Mennonites to Philadelphia (1709) settled in what is now Montgomery county and Berks. The Lancaster County Mennonite groups arrived about 1740's, and they seem to have kept more to themselves - this last group is what is usually considered "Pa-Dutch" in today's world, probably because of the tourism industry which has developed in Lancaster County. About names - some clues to ancestry may lie in names. Usually if one finds a man or woman in early Pennsylvania with a double name it is most likely that is a Lutheran or Reformed family. The Mennonites seem to use only single names. The middle name is the name the person was known as, be it a man or woman. There are many nicknames also - perhaps someone will define some of those. Collins - Have you considered that HUGHES might be Welsh? Perhaps English, especially if your HUGHES family ancestors might have been from Southwest Wales - those peoples moved back and forth from England to Wales quite a bit. Not to be forgotten is the group of people in Germany recruited by Penn to settle in early Pennsylvania, but because of the political climate in England were held there (some being sent to Scotland and Ireland), and some others who finally sailed and landed in New York State instead - those Germans finally traveling down the Susquehanna River beginning in two waves in 1720's to settle what is known as the Tulpehocken area of Berks County, PA. They were called the "Schoharie Settlers" in NY - some of those fought in Queen Anne's War. I have a list of names of the Schoharie dorf residents if anyone wants a look-up. Elida, Researching STUTZMAN, STUTSMAN, WERI, WERY, WEHRY, WEARY, REDEBACH, SCHAEFFER, SHAFER, SCHNEIDER, SNYDER, STAUFFER, STAFFORD, POWELL, THOMAS, PARSELL, ULRICH, DIETRICH. My web page: www.angelfire.com/sc/elida ----- Original Message ----- From: <Collins30038@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:19 AM Subject: Re: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > I think I should have been reading all of this from the first. My Hughes > family, probably coming in one of the Irish/Scot immigration waves in the > 1700's to PA married German women. Bricker is one of the names that I know > of. York/Mifflin Co. area. And another Hughes married a Martha, who was born > in PA or Germany, but I don't know her last name. The names of the children > have a Germanic sound to me - Jacob, Christiana, Barton.....seems to me to be > a blend of the two peoples prominent in rural PA at that time. I've never > heard the term Black German before, but I've heard Black Irish, which is what > someone said that we were.... > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > Abbreviations---PD=Pennsylvania Dutch, PMH=Pennsylvania Mennonite Heritage magazine, MFH=Mennonite family History magazine, MRJ=Mennonite Research Journal, LMHS=Lancaster Mennonite Hist. Society. > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library >

Hi Eva, The explanation I heard was that the Black Dutch came from the Black Forest area in Germany. Don't know if you had heard that one or not. Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: Eva Marie Rogers <evamarie@htcomp.net> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 7:11 AM Subject: Re: [PADutch] Black Dutch > I want to thank everyone for their explanation of Black Dutch. We have had > many rumors in our family and stories which we have proven to be true. This > term used in my family to describe one line has always been a mystery to me. > > The persistent story that has traveled through the family referred to as > Black Dutch is that we are of Jewish descent. I have yet to prove this. > It is the only story handed down that I haven't been able to prove. My > father says that the Rogers family which originally came to England with > William the Conquerer were William's spearsmen. The whole line consisted of > small men with swarthy complextion and small feet. Curly hair that > becomes curly during puperty. Some men bald. > > I suspect that we became a tri-racial family back during the time we were in > Norman country, which were parts of France, Holland and Germany. I know > that my family line was primarily caucasian during the time in England and > early America. Today however, the family has married into many diverse > cultures. > > I tend to agree that the term became derogatory similar to calling a person > white trash. A term used in Texas to refer to a less desirable group of > people. > > Every Jewish person I have ever spoken to says that Black Dutch is a term > that travels with there culture, but they were not authoritives on the > subject. > > Again, thank y'all for your input. > > Eva Marie Rogers > > RESEARCHING ROGERS, MELTON, LEATHERMAN, STEPHENS, ROBERSON, AND GRIFFITH > > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry.com for a FREE 14-Day Trial and enjoy access to the #1 > Source for Family History Online. Go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/subscribe/subscribetrial1y.asp?sourcecode=F11HB >

>please add to the list of blending of nationalities in pa.dutch country- >american indian. believe it or not . Sure the original Americans were here and although they were mostly gone by then, many of the ones who did not move were killed by diseases and conflicts with the new settlers, there were documented intermarriages. The huge wave of German immigrants to south central PA caused land to become scarce and prices to rise and there were periods of widespread illnesses. Large groups of people moved west and south to settle the wildernesses of what are now Ohio, the Carolinas, Tennessee and Kentucky scattering families and ethnic groups. Seems to me that is what made America and it people so successful and unique; our diverse yet blended heritage.

I want to thank everyone for their explanation of Black Dutch. We have had many rumors in our family and stories which we have proven to be true. This term used in my family to describe one line has always been a mystery to me. The persistent story that has traveled through the family referred to as Black Dutch is that we are of Jewish descent. I have yet to prove this. It is the only story handed down that I haven't been able to prove. My father says that the Rogers family which originally came to England with William the Conquerer were William's spearsmen. The whole line consisted of small men with swarthy complextion and small feet. Curly hair that becomes curly during puperty. Some men bald. I suspect that we became a tri-racial family back during the time we were in Norman country, which were parts of France, Holland and Germany. I know that my family line was primarily caucasian during the time in England and early America. Today however, the family has married into many diverse cultures. I tend to agree that the term became derogatory similar to calling a person white trash. A term used in Texas to refer to a less desirable group of people. Every Jewish person I have ever spoken to says that Black Dutch is a term that travels with there culture, but they were not authoritives on the subject. Again, thank y'all for your input. Eva Marie Rogers RESEARCHING ROGERS, MELTON, LEATHERMAN, STEPHENS, ROBERSON, AND GRIFFITH

I think I should have been reading all of this from the first. My Hughes family, probably coming in one of the Irish/Scot immigration waves in the 1700's to PA married German women. Bricker is one of the names that I know of. York/Mifflin Co. area. And another Hughes married a Martha, who was born in PA or Germany, but I don't know her last name. The names of the children have a Germanic sound to me - Jacob, Christiana, Barton.....seems to me to be a blend of the two peoples prominent in rural PA at that time. I've never heard the term Black German before, but I've heard Black Irish, which is what someone said that we were....

Eva Marie Rogers wrote: > I have often heard this term by many folks, saying that they were black dutch. Does anyone know what Black Dutch is? > > Eva Marie Rogers > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~hornbeck/blkdutch.htm go to this link -- Deborah L. Fox from,N.E.Phila,Pa to Fairfax,Va.to Front Royal,Va. GENEALOGY & RESEARCH LINKS-UPDATED MAY 25,2001 http://sites.netscape.net/INVESTIGATORFOX/homepage updated and revised added gedcom MAY 27,2001 ALSO SEARCH WITH GOOGLE AND PICO ON SITE FOR FREE GROCERIES-COUPONS http://www.valupage.com/Entry.pst?From=AFF002909

BLACK DUTCH: Some say that the term "Black Dutch" refers to Sephardie Jews who married Dutch Protestants to escape the Inquisition, many of their descendants later moving to the Americas, the "black" referring to their dark hair and complexions; perhaps rarely, German immigrants from the Black Forest region, e.g., "For the most part, the Black Dutch came after 1740." Others disagree and say it is doubtful that the Black Dutch were of Jewish or (Holland) Dutch heritage. Others say that no authoritative definition exists for this intriguing term. There are strong indications that the original "Black Dutch'' were swarthy complexioned Germans but Anglo-Americans loosely applied the term to any dark-complexioned American of European descent. Some say the term was adopted as an attempt to disguise Indian or tri-racial descent. By the mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a derogative term for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring, working-class status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign extraction. It has been used as a derogatory expression labeling German Union troops in the Civil War. Another fanciful and widely circulated explanation about the "Black Dutch'' is that they were Netherlanders of dark complexion who were descendants of the Spanish who occupied The Netherlands in the late 16th century and early 17th centuries, and intermarried with the blonde natives. However, the Dutch government's Central Bureau for Genealogy, established as a state archive and genealogical organization, is unable to offer an explanation for the term. Some genealogists have suggested that the Black Dutch were either an offshoot of the Melungeons or one of the tri-racial isolate groups in Appalachia. > > There are strong indications that the original "Black Dutch" were swarthy complexioned Germans. Anglo-Americans loosely applied the term to any dark-complexioned American of European descent. The term was adopted as an attempt to disguise Indian or infrequently, tri-racial descent. By the mid-1800s the term had become an American colloquialism; a derogative term for anything denoting one's small stature, dark coloring, working-class status, political sentiments, or anyone of foreign extraction. Gordon McCann, an Ozarks folklorist, speculates that "Black Dutch" might be a derogatory expression labeling German Union troops in the Civil War. While Raymond G. Matthews, a consultant at the Family History Library, says "it is doubtful that the Black Dutch were of Jewish or [Holland] Dutch heritage (one popular theory), and Dr. Arlene H. Eakle of the Genealogical Institute in Salt Lake City stated there was "absolutely no Jewish culture tie-in" found during an in-depth genealogical study of one line that family members claimed was "Black Dutch." Another fanciful and widely circulated explanation about the "Black Dutch" is that they were Netherlanders of dark complexion who were descendants of the Spanish who occupied The Netherlands in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, and intermarried with the blonde natives. However, the Dutch government's Central Bureau for Genealogy, established as a state archive and genealogical organization, is unable to offer an explanation for the term. Jared Suess, the Family History Library's Swiss specialist, believes the term "Black Dutch" probably was derived from those who came from areas in the Schwarzwald, or Black Forest of Germany, which runs along Switzerland's northern border. Back in the 1600s this forest covered a much larger area, extending to Switzerland and Bavaria