Thanks for clarifying this. Are there any records of Pennsylvania Dutch migrating to Canada? My Gra(y)bills were listed as from Holland when an ancestor answered a census taker about where his family came from. He told them that they were Pennsylvania Dutch. Pat Ratcliff Baumholder, Germany Researching Ratcliff/Grabill/Button/DeWitt/Hicks/Liebler/Tuttle/Main/Touchstone/Butt s/Knight/Clough/Worthley/Yarrow/Burchett http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/r/a/t/Patricia-Louise-Ratcliff ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:58 AM Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > > > > > PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: > Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were Lutherans. > German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, the > latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking > Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke > different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also German > Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the various > Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. > > The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the Netherlands, > nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to > German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late eighteenth > century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several theories > exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant of > the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and sixteenth > centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as Dutch > regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. "Deutsche" > is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have > resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to > America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead to > the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a > regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor pidgin > (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). > > > Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? > A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from > the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the > Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. > Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term > Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before 1800. > The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a > loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and > confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being in > 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas before > 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, > Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more formal > definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from > those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that came > after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German > immigrants. > > <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, > Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What > makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in Philadelphia > no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) and > lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, or > further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of > Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or > flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians and > NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving after > 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> > > > Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? > > The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and > Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 people > live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family and > community, and separation from the world. > Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch are > not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, > particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, they > are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German > background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or German). > They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH > are gladly advertised here. > > > ============================== > Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! > http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

I have heard that too Leon

In a message dated 5/30/2001 5:50:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, blair8535@nbn.net writes: << been told they did move to Canada because they did not condone war and the English did confiscated their homes an >> HI There is an old book that I think is out of print called Trail of the Conestoga or something to that effect that talks about a group of Mennonites from Lancaster and surrounding counties that moved to Canada. Part of the reason was because they didnt want invovlement in the war and the other part was cheap land. I am not sure exactly where they first bought land -but most of them ended up in the Kitchener -Waterloo area. I do know that the Webers were part of the group. I think the reasoning for cheap land was because the land was "running out " in terms of being able to provide the "proper acreage " for each son. Shirley

The "Longwood estate of Pierre S. DuPont, several miles east of Kennett Square." is now Longwood Gardens. I think I saw Indian Hannah's grave there a few years ago. Marge Green

I have been told they did move to Canada because they did not condone war and the English did confiscated their homes and goods when they did not swear allegiance. But I don't know for certain. -----Original Message----- From: Pat Ratcliff <pratclif@topsurf.com> To: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web >Thanks for clarifying this. Are there any records of Pennsylvania Dutch >migrating to Canada? My Gra(y)bills were listed as from Holland when an >ancestor answered a census taker about where his family came from. He >told them that they were Pennsylvania Dutch. > >Pat Ratcliff >Baumholder, Germany >Researching >Ratcliff/Grabill/Button/DeWitt/Hicks/Liebler/Tuttle/Main/Touchstone/Butt >s/Knight/Clough/Worthley/Yarrow/Burchett >http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/r/a/t/Patricia-Louise-Ratcliff >----- Original Message ----- >From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> >To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:58 AM >Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > >> >> >> >> >> >> PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: >> Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were >Lutherans. >> German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their >own, the >> latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German >speaking >> Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, >spoke >> different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also >German >> Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the >various >> Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. >> >> The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the >Netherlands, >> nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first >applied to >> German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late >eighteenth >> century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several >theories >> exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a >descendant of >> the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and >sixteenth >> centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as >Dutch >> regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. >"Deutsche" >> is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have >> resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed >to >> America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have >lead to >> the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a >> regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor >pidgin >> (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). >> >> >> Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? >> A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from >> the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the >> Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania >German. >> Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the >term >> Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning >before 1800. >> The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but >were a >> loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and >> confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into >being in >> 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas >before >> 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, >> Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more >formal >> definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America >from >> those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those >that came >> after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just >German >> immigrants. >> >> <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, >Swiss, >> Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. >What >> makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in >Philadelphia >> no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had >begun) and >> lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, >WV, or >> further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of >> Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German >government or >> flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be >Pennsylvanians and >> NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving >after >> 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> >> >> >> Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? >> >> The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states >and >> Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 >people >> live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, >family and >> community, and separation from the world. >> Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania >Dutch are >> not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, >> particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, >they >> are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly >German >> background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or >German). >> They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry >> >> >> >> ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >> New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH >> are gladly advertised here. >> >> >> ============================== >> Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >> http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >> > > >==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH >are gladly advertised here. > > >============================== >Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

I can only tell you about Lancaster/Lebanon/Berks Counties by 1778 hardly any were left in this area, we had "Indian scouts" long before then and both sides were hostile. Earlier many farmers in this area had been harassed or killed plowing and tending crops and they in turn had scouts who killed the indians. Most of the others had left the area but were very angry as they had used this area to stock up for winter. -----Original Message----- From: Robert J. Letson <rletson2@home.com> To: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [PADutch] 1778 Oath of Allegiance >American Indians at that time were present in great numbers in PA at that >time. Wm. Penn and others worked with them. There are many references to >all the activities in Histories of PA. > >Bob >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Betty Blair" <blair8535@nbn.net> >To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:28 AM >Subject: Re: [PADutch] 1778 Oath of Allegiance > > >| >please add to the list of blending of nationalities in pa.dutch country- >| >american indian. believe it or not . >| >| Sure the original Americans were here and although they were mostly >| gone by then, many of the ones who did not move were killed by diseases >| and conflicts with the new settlers, there were documented intermarriages. >| >| The huge wave of German immigrants to south central PA caused land to >| become scarce and prices to rise and there were periods of widespread >| illnesses. Large groups of people moved west and south to settle the >| wildernesses of what are now Ohio, the Carolinas, Tennessee and Kentucky >| scattering families and ethnic groups. >| >| Seems to me that is what made America and it people so successful and >unique; >| our diverse yet blended heritage. >| >| >| >| >| ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >| Haven't found a post of interest? Why not generate one of your own? >Transcribed records get lots of appreciative readers. Or try a surname query >you haven't posted in a while. >| >| >| ============================== >| Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >| http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >| > > > >==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >The official webstie for this list is at: >http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/~padutch/ > > >============================== >Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >

The Pa. German Society was originally a lineage organization. I think you had to have a German immigrant ancestor in the US before something like 1800 or so. It might have also been a male only group??? In the 1970's they realized that their membership was elderly and younger people weren't joining. They opened membership to anyone. I was a member for a few years but had to drop it when my husband's health got bad. Just so people don't mix these up. These are different organizations: The Pennsylvania German Society is interested in Pa. Dutch. No web site right now. The German Society of Pennsylvania is interested in German and is an active organization in Philadelphia. http://www.germansociety.org/ Recently, I asked the Penna Dutch Life list if anyone knew where the Pa. German Soc. was now. It moved a while ago. The answer I got was: > The Pennsylvania German Society > P. O. Box 244 > Kutztown, PA 19530-0244 > Phone: 610.894.9551 > Fax: 610.894.9808 > Office Hours: Tuesday and Thursday 9:00 a.m. - 3:00 p.m. Marge Green

Unsubscribe. Going to Australia for three years. Will re-subscribe when we return. schwenkfelder library & heritage center wrote: > > MiMi, > > Well, if you want to find out if your family belonged to the PA German > Society, you may want to contact them -- they're located in Kutztown, PA > (sorry, I don't have a good phone # -- call information). They may archive > their membership information. About the witchcraft or pow wow -- though > this was not black magic it was still very secret, and people did not > necessarily discuss it. It was not information that would be written down > in most cases. You'd probably have to go to the community where these > family members lived, and try talking to some of the "old-timers." Pow > wowing was still alive and well into the 20th century, and some locals may > remember. > > Also, if your family had in their possession a book called "The Long Lost > Friend" by Hohman there's a good chance that they were involved, at least > superficially, in pow wow. > > Candace Perry > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <Crochetwitch@aol.com> > To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 8:24 AM > Subject: Re: [PADutch] and witchcraft > > > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > Have you written that story down from your grandmother's childhood? > Do it now so that others may know of her when she is gone. Keep the > PADUTCH traditions alive! > > ============================== > Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp

========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 16:14:24 -0500 From: "Russ McGrew" <russmcgrew@email.msn.com> To: PACHESTE-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <000a01be3f3a$5e453700$f9032599@mainmcgrew> Subject: Re: Indian Hannah - a notice Tom (et al)-- I, for one, found your discussion of Indian Hannah and the attendant ceremonies and dedications very interesting. First, my wife's ancestors (Wm I HARVEY's) were from th Embreeville area -- referred to as Harvey's Bridge. Second, related to genealogical pursuits, I have picked up two books of an earlier John Russell HAYES, viz., "The Collected Poems of..." --last c/r 1916 & "Brandywine Days" printed in 1910. The former is a copy he presented to his aunt , with affection, Mary Russell WHITSON. Within it is the following poem: "The Indians' Grave" A dedicatiion box goes: "Here rest Indian Hannah, the last of the Lenni Lenape Indians in Chester County, who died in 1802" "Last of her race, she sleeps in this lone grave,-- Kowly and lone, and dim and half-forgot In these last hundred summers since she died; Last of her race, - laid here so long ago And gently mourned by folk of alien stock, But not of alien hearts, kind Quaker folk Who cherished the lone Indian, cared for her, And made her loneliness less sorrowful, Till life went out. And so went out a race That through uncounted cycles had their home Beside Wawassan's wild and wandering stream, - Tracking the bear and elk among these hills And taking fish in those rude stone-built dams That still remain in old Wawassan's stream, And celebrating round their flickering fires Strange pagan rite and solemn dance of war, - So long and long ago! - ere yet our sires Forced Magna Carta on reluctant John, Or yielded unto Alfred's kindly law, Yea, even ere they stormed the eastern shores Of Britain, rovers on the wild North Sea, - So long ago this old Algonquin folk Hunted and warred and worshipped 'mid the wood That hid these hill in endless greenery. What tribal memories survived in her, That last lone Indian woman, -- what remote And pale tradition from the ancient years, Of sylvan loves and wars, heroic deeds Of deathless chieftans, wisdom of the gods? I think some primal feeling surely stirred At times that lonely heart brooding the Past, When in gray autumn twilights by her fire She mused and mourned, recalling how in youth She heard old men grieve, old women weep O'er territory wrested from their tribe by the intruding English. Hopelessly They grieved and wept; - she could not understand The great All=Father's will, she only knew How numbers lessened, ho the forests fell And spoiled the hunting, how the fishing failed, And how as farmland after farmland spread Along Wawassan's shores, her peiple waned In ancient power and comfort. --'Tis but little We do, in honoring her name today, Toward offering penance for the pitiless force Exerted by our sires against her race. Today, among those grand old Indian hills, And by this wild and wandering Indian stream, In reverance and sorrow let us rear This strong rude boulder o'er the Indian's grave, - We, of the alien English, paying thus Some tribute small of honor and remorse Unto the noble natives of these hills By Indian Wawassan's mourning stream." Dated: Embreeville, 1909 Russ ______________________________ ------------------------------

============== Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 11:51:08 EST From: <Judiciary@aol.com> To: PACHESTE-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <a945ea59.369ccefc@aol.com> Subject: Indian Hannah - a notice Hope this is of interest to some-- from Tom Martin - email: Judiciary@aol.com http://members.aol.com/Judiciary/A.html A MEMORIAL TO INDIAN HANNAH from the Bulletin of the Chester County Historical Society, 1929 (p. 34) [Note: The bronze marker described below may be viewed still in 1999 on the east side of Pennsylvania Route 52, about 1/10 mile north of U.S.Route 1, in Chester County, Pennsylvania.] The tablet marking the birthplace of Indiah Hannah (Mrs. Hannah Freeman), the last of the Lenni-Lenape Indians (or Delawares) in Chester county, was formally unveiled and dedicated with very appropriate and interesting exercises on Saturday afternoon, September 5, 1925, in the presence of an unusually large gathering of residents of this section and nearby. The tablet was erected under the auspices of the Pennsylvania State Historical Commission and the Chester County Historical Society. The boulder is a picturesque, water-worn stone, secured from the bed of old Pocopson creek, a western branch of the famous Brandywine. To this rock is attached an inscribed bronze tablet, designed by the architect, Paul. P. Cret, Philadelphia. This marker is located on the east side of the West Chester road, about 400 yards north of the site of the old Anvil Tavern, which stood on the old Nottingham road of Colonial days, now the Baltimore Pike, on the Longwood estate of Pierre S. DuPont, several miles east of Kennett Square. Following is the inscription upon the tablet: INDIAN HANNAH 1730-1802 the last of the Indians in Chester County was born in the vale about 300 yards to the east on the land of the protector of her people the Quaker Assemblyman WILLIAM WEBB Her mother was Indian Sarah and her grandmother was Indian Jane of the Unami Group their totem the tortoise of the Lenni-Lenape or Delaware Indians ------------ Marked by THE PENNSYLVANIA HISTORICAL COMMISSION and the CHESTER COUNTY HISTORICAL SOCIETY 1925 A small platform had been erected in the shade of the trees near the boulder, with rows of chairs fronting it and alongside the roadway. At 2 o’clock, Albert Cook Myers, Secretary of the Pennsylvania Historical Commission, called the meeting to order. Col. Henry W. Shoemaker, chairman of the Pennsylvania Commission, made a short address, in which he referred to this noted historic shrine and expressed his thanks to the generosity of Mr. And Mrs. DuPont, and to the hearty co-operation of the Chester County Historical Society. Mr. DuPont then presented the deed of gift for the site of the land on which the marker stands, to the Pennsylvania State Historical Commission. Col. Shoemaker accepted the deed and expressed his thanks for the munificent gift, that is more valued than acres of land. The tablet was then unveiled by Miss Beulay E. Webb, eighth in direct descent from Wm. Webb, upon whose land Indian Hannah was born. Mr. Myers, the next speaker said: Today is of greatest interest in the Commonwealth. Just south of here was the old Anvil Tavern and the road which was the path of the British at the Battle of the Brandywine; nearby is the meeting house of the Progressive Friends, and the “Westminster Abbey of Chester County,” where are buried Hon. Bayard Taylor, and other distinguished sons of the county; also, near here is Pierce’s Park, or arboretum, and the Kennett Friends’ Meeting House, erected in 1710; also Longwood, where there was an underground railroad station. This section is part of the tract of 15,500 acres that William Penn gave to his beloved daughter Laetitia, in 1701, for one beaver skin yearly and her affection. Among the papers of the Marshall family was found data referring to the birth of Indian Hannah, in 1730, in Kennett township, on land of William Webb, fifty yards from the Marlborough line. There was a pond in this vale where the papooses were soused into the cold water to make them hardy, after the ice had been broken by tomahawks. The old house, now occupied by Mr. And Mrs. DuPont, was erected in 1730 also, and on the datestone are the initials of Joshua [Peirce], whose wife was Rachel Gilpin. William Webb, who took care of Indian Hannah, was a Member of the Assembly, Justice of the Peace, surveyor and traveler; he was a good Quaker, but did not like the Scotch-Irish Presbyterians. Mr. Myers also said that William Webb had lived in a house one mile from here that is still standing, Hannah spent her maidenhood int he usual handiwork, and one basket that had been made by her was shown, (the property of Miss Martha G. Cornwell, West Chester). Indian Hannah lived for a time in wigwams and cabins along the Brandywine, and spent her time, too, in the families of the Chandlers, as Thomas and Swithin Chandler were devoted to the Indians, because their ancestors had been kindly treated by the Indians. The meadow on the farm of Jared Darlington, near Darlington [Delaware County, PA], was the migratory home of Indian Hannah, who also sojourned on “Whiskey Run,” near Swarthmore [also in Delaware County]. At some length Mr. Myers reviewed the wanderings of Indian Hannah for several years, and then said that in the early days of the Revolution she took her abode on the lands of the Marshall’s at Northbrook, on what she considered her own land. In 1795, Jacob Pierce [Peirce?] entered upon his books that he had bled Indian Hannah, and again in 1799, and in 1800, he took her to Moses Pennock, near Kennett. Indian Hannah traveled as far southward as New Castle, eastward to Goshen, northward to Northbrook, and westward to Avondale. She made a great impression upon the white people. In winter, she made brooms and baskets, etc., and in the spring time and summer, she wandered around selling the baskets, etc. She had a horse, and rode horseback, accompanied by two dogs and some pigs. In an interview with Amos Burton, aged ninety years, he said that Peter Tuscoraro, an Indian, had developed smallpox and had jumped into the Brandywine and was drowned. The Indians were fond of tortoises and they cooked them in the fireplaces. On one occasion while Hannah was visiting the Harlans, near Embreeville, she sat near the fire and smoked a pipe, and when invited to eat at night, she replied, “Me no owl, me no eat at night.” When visiting in the white families, she spun flax and wool. She was afraid of thunderstorms, and would leave the neighborhood until the storm ceased. She was not given to drunkenness, but was very fond of cider in all its stages. In 1770, she remarked to George Martin, “Me love cider.” Mr. Myers then referred to an original document dated 1798, relative to kindness extended to Indian Hannah, signed by a number of the residents of this county, who agreed thereby to subscribe to contribute to her maintenance, and the funds to be paid to trustees, one of whom was Mordecai Hayes, great- great-grandfather of John Russell Hayes and J. Carroll Hayes. She was passed around from the home of one neighbor to another, and then when the Chester County Home was opened in 1800, she was admitted as one of the first inmates, on November 12, 1800, age 69 years. She died there on March 20, 1802, and her death was the first recorded at the institution. She was interred in the almshouse cemetery, and in 1909, the Chester County Historical Society placed a tablet there on a large boulder. The Society has also placed markers on the site of her last cabin, and the Indian burial grounds near Northbrook. Hannah was promised burial in the grounds of her people in Newlin. Now through the generosity of Mr. DuPont, the place of her birth is marked by a water washed boulder from Pocopson creek. Col.Shoemaker thanked Mr. Myers for his address, and introduced Dr. Andrew Thomas Smith, Principal of the West Chester State Normal School, and Vice- President of the Chester County Historical Society, who in turn introduced Prof. John Russell Hayes, Librarian at Swarthmore College, and former resident of West Chester, who read an original poem on Indian Hannah. Working ‘mid my marigolds and zinnias, I found some arrow-heads the other day- Straight I journeyed in imagination To an earlier era far away. When those Newlin Township hills were peopled By an older, simpler race than ours, Folk, perchance with little time for musing ‘Mid low orchard boughs and summer flowers, Little time to watch the slow unfolding Of the silken-petalled hollyhocks And the strange and fragrant fascination Of pungent peonies and purple phlox. Or did perhaps those simple forest children Look with wistful wonder now and then On wild daisies dancing on a hilltop Or Quaker ladies in a mossy glen? While their fathers tracked the fleet-footed foxes, Did the little woodland children there Gather berry-blooms to weave in garlands And roses wild to wind among their hair? I can picture one bright, dark-eyed damsel Roaming often by Wawassan’s stream, Wandering far apart from all her playmates By those grassy shores to muse and dream; Happy in her world of winds and waters, Clouds and leaping fish and warbling birds; Learning nature’s secrets through the seasons, Chanting of her love in liquid words. In these ancient meadows here about us Stood the wigwam of her infant days; Here her father set forth on his hunting, Here her mother worked their patch of maize. Here the maiden watched the summer sunsets, Heard the frozen forest’s wintry roar, Heard the hills re-echo songs of triumph As the warriors hastened home from war. Here she heard the tribal incantations Chanted to a wild and wizard tune, Here she joined the mystic tribal dances Underneath the drowsy harvest moon. And wherever was her future biding, To whatever valleys she might roam, Still she cherished lifelong recollections Of those ancient fields, her childhood home. Now besides the waters of the Wawassan, Northward from these meadows of her birth, Lies the last of Chester County’s Indians, Wrapt in slumber in the quiet earth. ______________________________ ------------------------------

For more information of the Lenape Indians try: www.web-savvy.com/river/Schuylkill/lenape.html There is a link on that to a little information on "Indian Hannah" who died in Chester Co, in 1802 - thought to be the last of the Lenapes. Her grave was the site of a government memorial service some years back, a story which included a really nice poem to the memory of Hannah - unfortunately it has been deleted from my computer. Elida in SC ----- Original Message ----- From: "schwenkfelder library & heritage center" <schwenkfeld@netcarrier.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [PADutch] 1778 Oath of Allegiance > The Lenape groups in eastern PA, however, were pretty much gone from the > scene by the early - mid 18th century. At some point soon after Penn's > agreement with the Lenape, they moved westward to the Susquehanna, I > believe. > > Candace Perry > Schwenkfelder Library & Heritage Center > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert J. Letson <rletson2@home.com> > To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 11:54 AM > Subject: Re: [PADutch] 1778 Oath of Allegiance >

Thanks to Elida in SC for sharing useful information. Carol in Louisiana.

Jeanne ? I can't your line to this without more information. What I enclose is part of my line, you probobly tie in where the second Christian Clemmer appears. I have no further on his line than this info. His marriage and his family I don't know. He was my great- great-great grandfather's brother. I know he was active in 1847-8. He was a speaker at the Oberholzer revolution. See if you can find out more about your Christian Clemmer. Leon Clemmer Clekeres@ix.netcom.commmer Clemmer is an old Montgomery County name. the earliest Clemmer arrival in America was a Bishop Valentine (Felty) Clemmer ( Clymer), America's first Mennonite Bishop. He was called by the meeting in Germantown and arrived in 1717. As a family, it has produced numerous branches. They have spread from Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, to Tennessee, Ohio, and Texas. There have been few outstanding leaders, a number of Mennonite preachers, doctors, lawyers, educators, architects, but, mostly they remained dirt farmers. One house painter in Jenkintown served on the school board for many years. A highwayman named James Clemmer was hanged in Norristown in 1899. A book about the "tragedy" entitled, "life and trials of Kaiser, Clemmer and the Lady in Black," is our claim to literary fame. Abraham Clemmer served in the revolutionary war militia. Four other Clemmers that we know of refused to serve on the grounds of religious objections. At least one served in WW- 1, Dr. Leon Clemmer, and he was decorated for valor by the United States, Greece, and Italy (my dad). I served in the South Pacific WW-2 in the Navy, and participated in the Phillippine Liberation Operations. On the whole, we have been described as typically large boned, light complected stubborn, and opinionated, (germanic types), typical of the rhineland farmers William Penn recruited to farm his lands in the new world. It all began with William Penn,' in fact, with the debt owed to Penn's father by the King of England. So it was that on March 14th, 1661, Charles II, King of England granted William Penn 40,000 square miles of land, in what is now called Pennsylvania. Two forces focused on this land. Penn had been granted what would be the breadbasket of the new world. Some of the potentially most fertile farm land in the new world belonged to Penn. Rivers were the major means of transportation, and the land was serviced by two rivers. Until the Erie canal and the railroads opened the routes to mid-America, Philadelphia was the central transportation and cultural center of the Colonies. The Delaware and Schuykill rivers were the superhighways of the times. But, Penn needed farmers to till the land. Enter the Mennonites of Germany. Their movements actually trace back to the Swiss Brethern Movement and to the Dutch Anabaptists of the sixteenth century. The teachings of Conrad Grebel, Felix Mang, and George Beaurock centered in Zurich, but the principal religion in the area was the Roman Catholic Church, and they hated these peace-loving farmers. The Decree of the Diet of Speyer in 1529 ordered the execution of any Anabaptists, wherever found in the Holy Roman Empre, without trial. Anabaptist ideas of religious freedom, separation of church and state, non-resistance and non-forswearing of oaths, sounds today like the freedoms we all take for granted. In 1500 in Switzerland and in Holland, these were ideas that were repugnant to the establishment. Because of their belief in these ideals, the early Mennonites were persecuted, burned at the stake, and in some instances, they were sold by the Swiss to the Italians to man their galley ships as oarsmen. By 1600, most of the Brethern in Moravia and Switzerland were largely annihilated. The remaining were driven from their homes to the Rine River and the Renish Palatine. The Thirty Year War had left the Palatine greatly wasted and reduced in population. The local Counts, such as Count Ludwig, invited the Swiss Brethern to settle on their lands. Earlier, in the Netherlands, a great preacher arose. Menno Simons. originally trained as a Catholic priest, he was converted to the peaceful group of Anabaptists called "he Obbenites in 1536. As an inspiring and influential leader, he traveled through northern Germany and the Netherlands, with a price on his head; preaching and organizing churches. He died in 1561, but his followers, as early as the 1540's were knows as Mennonites. It was to these persecuted Mennonites that Penn came in 1677, before he received his grant, to preach the advantages of emigration to "Penn's wood," or Pennsylvania. Penn's agent, Benjamin Furly, published Dutch and German pamphlets advertizing Pennsylvania. The earliest group, the Crefeld group, came to America in 1683, the same year as did Penn, and settled in what is now Germantown. Later, settlers would move on to Skippack. The influx of the German farmers had begun. The first documentary evidence of the residence of Henry is 1738. That year the formal formation of the Salford Mennonite Congregation occurred. In the Deed of Trust, dated January 25, 1738, covering the land necessary for a Meetinghouse and Cemetery among the 17 mentioned is Henry Clemmer of Franconia, along with Frederick Alderfer, Hans Ruff, and Henry Ruth. When Henry Clemmer located in Franconia is not known, but one can readily believe that it was shortly after his arrival in this locality with Johann. He had probably taken up land prior to the formation of the Salford Mennonite Congregation. He undoubtedly was a respected member of his community at that time. Under the date of December 27, 1738, Preacher Dielman Kolb and Elizabeth, his wife of Salford Township, conveyed to Henry Clemmer a tract of land containing 156 acres located on the present Allentown Road South of the present village of Franconia. The greater portion of this Homestead tract has never been out of the Clemmer family, having descended from Henry the Pioneer to his son Abraham: to his son Abraham M; to his son Abraham D; to his son Hiram D; and then to his son Laaden M. Clemmer. The property in 1990 is still known as the "Clemmer Farm." Since Preacher Dielman Kolb purchased this tract in 1734, it is quite likely that he soon afterward sold it to Henry under lease, and by 1748 final payment being made formal transfer by Deed settled the fate of this tract down to the present time. John (Johann) had acquired 100 acres of land in Lower Salford in 1734. He signed an agreement to purchase this land; but, according to the Alderfer family history, he died before the final payment to Hans Reiff. John died in 1737 and left a widow, Anna, and two daughters, Susanna and Catharine. In 1738, Anna Detwiler Clemmer married Frederick Alderfer and they lived in the house on the farm that John had been purchasing from Reiff. Henry Clemmer and Anna's father, John Detwiler, had signed a bond for Anna, thereby preserving the title to the land for Anna. Frederick Alderfer is the first immigrant in America of that family line. All this is contrary to the report of a death of an Andreas Klemmer, who had returned from America and died in Friedelsheim, Germany in 1757 at the age of 57. The support Henry gave to John does seem to indicate a filial relationship, but there is no proof. Since both Henry and John bought land and long term lease purchase arrangement, it seems to dispell the theory that they were two wealthy, (royal) brothers who had been banished to the new world for "indiscretions." The records are meagre regarding Henry's pioneer life. With the formation of the Franconia Mennonite Congregation, he undoubtedly became a part of the meeting. The homestead was cleared and tilled, buildings of some kind erected for in 1769 he is listed as owning 155 acres, 4 horses, 7 cattle, no servants, and paid a tax of 16 pounds, 11 shillings. The eldest son Abraham, was of age and at home, he did not own property and therefore paid no tax. In the Effective Supply tax for the year 1779, Henry paid 15 pounds. He paid 4 pounds 5 shillings in addition for his state tax in 1779. The effective Supply tax for 1780 lists Henry Clemmer, Sen'r for a tax of 120 pounds on a valuation of $4000. The same tax for 1782 is 3 pounds 9 shillings and 2 pence on a 513 pound valuation. After this date, Henry Senior is no longer rated as a taxable, and therefore, it is presumed that Abraham the eldest son had actually taken over the ownership of the Homestead even though he did not acquire legal possession until after the father's death in 1791. In the Federal Tax for 1783, Abraham Clemmer is listed for 156 acres, 2 horses, 5 cattle, 9 sheep and no negroes. Henry Clemmer died intestate in 1791. The administrators were his sons Abraham and Henry and their records were proved June 2, 1791 before the Register of Wills at Norristown. Soon after the death of the father, all the children joined in a Deed conveying the Homestead to the eldest son, Abraham. In the grave yard adjoining the Franconia Mennonite Meetinghouse are the tombstones of Henry Clemmer and his wife Maria - bearing the following inscriptions: Henrich Clemmer ist qeboren 1700 ist gestorben 13 Jenner 1791 Maria Clemmer ist geboren 1720 ist gestorben 1 ocdobe 1777 The children of Henry and Maria Clemmer were: 1. Catharine,b 1776;m Henry Lederach (17) who died 1799. Lived in Lower Salford Township, Farmer, Mennonites. 2. Elisabeth; m Preacher Jacob Oberholtzer who died 1814 son of Jacob and Deborah (Haldeman) Oberhcltzer. This is the son of the Oberholtzer on board the "Alexander and Anne" with Henry Sr. They lived in Franconia Township, Jacob was the Preacher at the Franconia Mennonite Congregation from 1775 to 1813. 3. Anna, b 1743; m Jacob Geil b province of Alsase 1742 d Rockingham County, Virginia 1802. Lived in Springfield Township, and New Britan Township, Bucks County. He later married again and removed to Tredyfferen Township, Chester County Penna. and finally to Virginia. Jacob Geil by a second marriage had a son Preacher John Geil, who served as a minister at Line Lexington Mennonite Meeting for fifty-five years. 4. Abraham, b 1745 - d 1838; married Susannah Miller, 1759. 5. Christian, b 1759 - d 1837; married Catherine - lived in Sellersville, Bucks County. 6. Henry, d 1802; m Mary, daughter of Peter Hendricks of Towamencin Township. Buried at Line Lexington Mennonite Meetinghouse. Lived in Hatfield Township. 7. John, b 1757 d December 14, 1836; m Margaret (Godshalk?) b 1758, d February 11, 1841. Up to 1800 lived in Towamencin Township. After that date in Lower Salford Township. Farmer - Mennonites - Buried at Salford Mennonite Meetinghouse. 8. Maria, b September 3, 1762, d November 19, 1834; m Jacob Moyer, b April 18, 1754, d October 11, 1826. Farmer - Mennonites - Lived in Franconia Township. Buried at Franconia Mennonite Meetinghouse 9. Valentine (Clymer-change of name); b August 1763; d August 24, 1833; m Hannah-Johnson, b December 1766 d February 2, 1848; daughter of John Johnson of Hatfield Township. Lived early married life in Towamencin Township. In 1792 they purchased the Godfrey Miller farm of 125 acres in New Britain (now Warrington) Township, Bucks County. Farmer. Mennonites. Buried at Line Lexington Mennonite Meetinghouse. 10. Christian 1759 - 1837 Christian was born on 10/20/1759, presumably on his father's farm In RockhIll Twp. Tax and census lists Indicate that he stayed there until his death In 1837. His wife, Catherine, gave him a probable maximum of six children (1800 Census), five of whom were living at his death. Christian is buried in Rockhill Mennonite Cemetery. These were: GEORGE - 1/29/1786 6/25/1864 Abraham Samuel -10/7/1793 3/12/1865 m.Elizabeth - 8/15/1805-12/3/1852 buried at Rockhill Mtg. Catherine m. Jacob Detweller Marizarete m. David Gelsinger of Hilltown Twp. Bucks Co. Christian wrote his will on 8/23/1832 and It was proved on 5/23/1837- It provided for Samuel's Inheritance of three tracts In Rockhill Twp. containing about 128 acres. (Bucks Wills 7038). The two older brothers had evidently set out on their own leaving the youngest with the homestead. Christian (10/20/1759 - 4/12/1837) and his wife Catharine (1764- 1/10/1844) are buried In the cemetery of the Rock- hill Mennonite Meeting. GEORGE CLEMMER 1786 - 1864 Family tradition has it that George Clemmer walked from his father's farm near Sellersville, Bucks Co. to Clayton, Hereford Twp., Berks Co and found employment there with George Lahr (or Lohr). On 6/10/1809, George Lahr of Hereford Twp. and Catherine his wife conveyed land to "---and ---Christian Clemmer of Rockhill Twp Bucks Co."Christian paid--'2100 for four tracts of land In Hereford Twp. The witnesses were George Clemmer and John Thompson (Berks DB 541,403)., At this time, there was only one adult Christian Clemmer living In RockhIll Twp., according to census and tax reports, ie. Christian, son of Martin Clemmer. On 8/23/1832, the very date this Christian Clemmer wrote his will, a Christian Clemmer of Hockhill Twp. and Catharine, his wife conveyed land to George Clemmer of Hereford Two Berks Co., son of said Christian. George paid $3466.66 for 92 acres in four tracts. The witnesses were Samuel Clemmer and Abraham Heaney (who also witnessed Christian's will) (Berks DB 46,475). On 8/14/1809. George married Anna Gelssinger (3/26/1787-12/ 25/1872) who gave birth to seven children: John G. - 9/8/1810 - 6/21/1894 m. Susan Bauer - 9/1/1813 4/2/1900; a farmer near Bally; buried at Hereford Mennonite Church. Rev, Christian - 2/8/1813 - 3/9/1883 M. Barbara Gehman - 11/22/1894; a well-known "New Mennonite" minister at Hereford; buried at Hereford Church. David G. - 9/23/1815 - 5/20/1893 m. Mary - 3/20/1820 - 111131 1886-.lived on George's farm; buried at Hereford Church. Catherine b. 8/22/1818 m. David Hiestand of Lehigh Co. REV, SAMUEL- 8/10/1821 - 2/16/1870 Anna - b.8/21/1824 m. John H. Bechtel. Abraham - b. 8/20/1828; died and buried In the state of Washnington. George evidently helped his sons start out on their own. In 1842. he conveyed 99 acres to John Clemmer. his son, of Hereford and Washington Twps. (Berks DB 50,80) and In 1848, David Clemmer bought land from his father (Berks DB 88,586). The father wrote his wjil in 1862 stipulating that each of his seven children wet an equal share of the profits from the sale of his land. His widow retained the household goods. (Barks Wills 11,329). At least part of the original farm continued In the possession of David Clemmer. It Is reported to have been he who built the mill,part of which still stands (as of 1970) near his father's house.~ After David's death in 1893, James B. Funk took possession of the farm. He had married David's daughter, Susanna. As of 1970 It was owned by Stanley Fox. Annie Clemmer Funk , daughter of David’s daughter Susanna, was a Mennonite missonary, she was told that her mother was dying in America. She returned from India where she was stationed. and sailed, second Class on the Titanic. The ship that was on which she was booked could not get coal for the passage because of a strike. The new ship The Titanic could. She did not survive the sinking in 1912. George Clemmer and his wife Anna are buried at the Hereford Mennonite Church. REV. SAMUEL CLEMMER 1821 -1870. Presumably was born on the Clemmer farm near Clayton. On 11/11/1851, he married Judith Gerhard (3/18/1828- 8/13/1895) and they had six children: Andrew George 12/11/1852-10/5/1914 m. Mary Emily Miller. Catherine Anne 11/30/1854-9/11/1944 m. Rev. Albert Funk 6/22/1852 - 11/3/1927, Pastor of the First Mennonite Church, 1874-1881 and from 1890 - 1915, Gen. Secretary of the Christian and Missionary Alliance, New York City; both are burled at Hereford Church. Daughter - stillborn 7/19/1857; buried at Hereford Church.. Sarah - 7/30/1858 - 12/3/1876; buried at Hereford Church Jonas G. 6/30/1860 - 10/27/1935 - Martha F. Smith - 1864- 1947, Drug salesman In Phila. Both buried at Hatboro Cemetery Joel Gerhard - 8/9/1864 - 11/14/1931

The Lenape groups in eastern PA, however, were pretty much gone from the scene by the early - mid 18th century. At some point soon after Penn's agreement with the Lenape, they moved westward to the Susquehanna, I believe. Candace Perry Schwenkfelder Library & Heritage Center ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert J. Letson <rletson2@home.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [PADutch] 1778 Oath of Allegiance >

Here are some deaths reported in "Der Libanon Demokrat", a German newspaper in PA: BRANDT, Sarah, died Nov. 26, 1838 at age 83 years in Swatara Twp., Lebanon Co., PA - wife of Adam Brandt. MILLER, Elisabeth - died Dec. 6, 1838 in Bethel Twp., Lebanon Co. at age 85 yrs. 11 mn. 8 days. - widow of David Miller. FASNACHT, Conrad - died Dec. 8, 1838 in Lebanon at age 60 yrs. 5 mn. 3 dys. GASS, Widow - died may 24, 1840 in Schaefferstown, age 77 yrs + 4 mn + 18 dys. STROHM, Maria - b. Feb 12, 1765 - d. Feb. 13, 1845 in south Lebanon Twp., Lebanon Co. - age 80 and 5 hours. Widow of the late Henry STROHM. REAM, Martin, Sr. - died in Heidelberg Twp., Lebanon Co. age about 72 yrs. SMITH, John - Revolutionary War soldier - died Aug. 13, 1845 in Annville Twp. Lebanon Co. age 92 yrs., 7 mns. 3 dys. SHOUFLER, Col. Valentine - Revolutionary War soldier - died Aug. 7, 1845 at age 93 yrs. 3 mns. 27 dys. in Swatara Twp. Sprecher, J. Frederick - d. Nov. 24, 1846 in South Lebanon Twp. age 69 yrs and 27 dys. GROVE, Hannah - died April 25, 1847 in Lebanon, age 77 yrs., 4 mns., 24 dys. GASSERT, Barbara - d. May 2, 18 50 in S. Lebanon Twp. , age 78 yrs, 9 mns., 24 dys. BAILER, Anna Maria - d. May 6, 1850 in S. Annville Twp. age 94 ys +9 mns. + 5 dys. MILLER, Jacob, D.D. - d. May 16, 1850 - last preacher of Evangelical Lutheran Church in Reading at age 62. HESS, Anna Barbara - d. May 1, 1850 in Lebanon, age 88 ys. 7 mns., 9 dys. DERR, Mrs. - d. May 26, 1850 in millcreek Twp., age 96 yrs., 8 mns., 28 dys. GRAYBILL, Catharina - d. June 3, 1850 in Millerstown, Lancaster Co., age 100 yrs. She was married on the day of the Battle of the Brandywine in the Revolutionary War. MELONE, Eva - d. June 17, 1850 in Munnastown at age 73 - wife of Kelp Melone. STOVER, Maria, Mrs. - d. July 6, 1850 in S. Lebanon, age 71 yrs., 3 mns., 27 dys. GROSS, Maria - d. July 10, 1850 in Ephrata, Lancaster Co. age 65 yrs., 9 mns., 21 dys. Widow of John Gross, Esq. GROSCH, Samuel, Esq. - d. July 12, 1850 in Littitz, Lancaster Co. age 83. CLEIMER, Joseph - d. July 25, 1850 in N. Annville Twp., age about 72 yrs. MEILY, Martin - d. Aug. 2, 1850, a respected citizen of Jonestown, age 88 yrs. 29 dys. Good luck, Elida in SC

This was sent in answer to a query from a fellow lister, but it may be useful to others. So - ----- Original Message ----- From: Elida Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 1:39 PM Subject: STAUFFER, SNYDER, SCHAFER My STAUFFER (STAFFORD) ancestor was Hans STAUFFER who left Schweitz, Germany on Nov. 5, 1709 with his wife and children: Jacob age 13, Daniel age 12, Henry age 9, and married daughter Elizabeth PAULUS with her husband and their child Mary. The family arrived in London Jan. 26, 1710 - later that year they arrived in Philadelphia, settling in the French Creek area of Chester Co. near Valley Forge. Hans is buried in the Mennonite Graveyard near Valley Forge. I am descended thru the line of Han's son Jacob, who was born in Switzerland 1696 (he's the 13 yr-old son above). Jacob died March 1780 at Bally, Berks Co., PA and is buried in the Mennonite Cemetery there along with his wife Barbara who died 1785, also at Bally. Their son Christian was born Dec. 16, 1728 and died July 14, 1797 at Bally. He is also buried in the Mennonite Cemetery at Bally. His wife was Susanna BUCKWALTER. Christian STAUFFER served in the Revolutionary War. His military service can be documented through DAR (Daughter's of the American Revolution) records. Christian and Barbara had a son John, born Dec. 24, 1758 in Montgomery Co., PA and died March 5, 1845 in Schuylkill Co., PA and is buried at St. Peter's Cemetery, Barnesville, Schuylkill Co. He married Elizabeth YEAGER, born Nov. 15, 1767. This is the first generation to have left the Mennonite religion to become Evangelical Lutherans. They had a son Jacob, born 1783 who had three wives. His surname was changed from STAUFFER to STAFFORD by the time of the 1860 Census in Schuylkill Co., PA. He and wife #3 were the parents of my greatgrandmother, Hettie STAFFORD. There is an entirely different line of the STAUFFER family who arrived in PA about mid-1700's and went directly to Lancaster Co. I believe these are the STAUFFER Mennonites who moved into other states. My SCHNEIDER ancestors from Berks Co. early 1700's also had their name changed to SNYDER by mid-1800 Census in Schuylkill Co., PA. They were Evangelical Lutherans as far back I find them in PA. The SCHAEFFER (SHAFER) family were also Evangelical Lutherans. All of my PA ancestors were in Eastern PA counties - and stayed there. As far as researching first and second names in records: I think church records would be in the full name, example my Johan Christian STUTZMANN, Sr. marrying in Zion & St. Michael's Evan. Lutheran in Philadelphia 1766, and my Maria Christina SCHAFER marring Gottfried STUTZMAN, with land records and census records often appearing as the middle name with the surname. It was the usual practice for the early German families to call the children by the middle name. I hope this is helpful, Elida in SC

Indeed there were intermarriages with American Indians in eastern PA. One of the earliest of the Brethren, Johann Jakob Preisz from Schwartzenau, apparently arranged a marriage of his sickly only son, Johannes, to an Algonquin lady of the Unami (Turtle) tribe, about 1720. She gave birth to 2 sons before Johannes died about 1724. This happened in what is now Lower Salford Twp., Montgomery County. Thus the thousands of descendants of the 2 "Price" brothers carry Algonquin ancestry along with the German. Documentation is in the book "A Genealogy of The Descendants of Rev. Jacob Price: Evangelist--Pioneer" compiled for The Price Family Association by Geo. F. P. Wanger, The Evangelical Press, Harrisburg, PA, 1926. Best Wishes, Don Boyd Fairborn, Ohio U.S.A. <A HREF="http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/b/o/y/Donald-L-Boyd/">http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/b/o/y/Donald-L-Boyd/</A>

Leon, Do you have any additional information on the Clemmer line? My Clemmer line is as follows: Barbara Clemmer born in the 1750s probably in the Harleysville area of Bucks County. She married Abraham Delp. Barbara's father was Christian Clemmer. I have no information on him. Any help would be appreciated. Jeanne At 10:22 PM 5/29/01 -0400, you wrote: >Pastorious, Rittenhouse etc where the earliest, in fact they set up the >Mennonite Church in Germantown in 1690 and petitioned the Mennonite Church of >the Netherlands to send a Bishop to America. They sent Bishop Felte Clemmer >to America in 1712. The Bishop lived and worked in the "Great Swamp"Meeting >in upper Montgomery County. They were really " Penna-Dutch" not scotch-irish. > >Leon Clemmer > > >==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >Check out the Mid-Atlantic Roots Network at: >http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/ > > >============================== >Search over 1 Billion names at Ancestry.com! >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/rwlist1.asp

60 years ago , when I was a young girl, a german family moved into the town where I lived. She spoke very little english, dressed in home knit sweaters,had long blonde braids, & was named,"in the german tradition". Her first name,Susan, then her mothers FULL name (first & last) then the family name. Barb in MI -----Original Message----- From: JANET MASTERS <janet.masters2@verizon.net> To: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 12:30 AM Subject: Re: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web >The following e-mail is of great interest to me. I have a problem with my >ggrandmothers name. Also I have met a gentleman that has the same problem >with a female in his tree. Both used the name Palmer when they were married >for the first time but gave the name McFarland as their maiden name when >they had children. My Armenia also was listed as Mary. > >I am most interested in the specifics of the tradition of a German girl >being given their mothers name plus one of their own usually a godmother. >Are we talking about first names and last names? > >Janet >----- Original Message ----- >From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> >To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 7:58 PM >Subject: [PADutch] Definitions of Pa. Dutch culled from the web > > >> >> >> >> >> >> PENNSYLVANIA DUTCH: >> Do not look for them in Dutch records. They are Germans and were >Lutherans. >> German girls were often given their mother's name plus one of their own, >the >> latter usually a godmother. Pennsylvania Dutch were also German speaking >> Swiss and some French Huguenot. The Germans and Swiss, even then, spoke >> different dialects of German. They were not only Lutherans, but also >German >> Reformed, and pietists such as Moravians, Mennonites, Amish, and the >various >> Brethren groups, including the ones known as Dunkers. >> >> The term "Pennsylvania Dutch," refers not to immigrants from the >Netherlands, >> nor the native tongue of Holland. Instead, the phrase was first applied to >> German-speaking Deutschlanders who arrived from Europe in the late >eighteenth >> century and settled in Southeastern Pennsylvania counties. Several >theories >> exist on the accepted definition of "Pennsylvania Dutch" as a descendant >of >> the original German settlers in Pennsylvania. In the fifteenth and >sixteenth >> centuries, the English referred to all people of germanic heritage as >Dutch >> regardless of whether they came from the Netherlands or Germany. >"Deutsche" >> is the German word for German, and a linguistic corruption could have >> resulted in the designation. Moreover, most German immigrants sailed to >> America from Dutch ports of Rotterdam and Amsterdam, which may have lead >to >> the confusion. Language spoken by these Pennsylvanians is a dialect (a >> regional variety) of German, and is not a broken form of German, nor >pidgin >> (a simplified speech) or creole (a language evolved from pidgin). >> >> >> Q. Who are the Pennsylvania Dutch? >> A. The Pennsylvania Dutch are not even Dutch at all. They are not from >> the country that we know today as the Netherlands. Some say that the >> Pennsylvania Dutch should be more properly known as Pennsylvania German. >> Deutsch means German and the early English in America corrupted the term >> Deutsch to Dutch. The term German though had a different meaning before >1800. >> The Germans were not members of a formal country at that time, but were a >> loose collection of principalities, free cities, protectorates and >> confederations. The country that we know today as Germany came into being >in >> 1848 with the unification process starting around 1800. German areas >before >> 1800 included areas that are now part of Poland, the Czech Republic, >> Switzerland, Russia, France and other areas as well as Germany. A more >formal >> definition of Pennsylvania Dutch then are those that came to America from >> those areas where the German language was spoken before 1800. Those that >came >> after 1800 are usually referred to as Pennsylvania Germans or just German >> immigrants. >> >> <!--StartFragment-->"Pennsylvania Dutchmen can be either German, Swiss, >> Alsatian, or even Holland Dutchmen , and they can live most anywhere. What >> makes them Pennsylvania Dutch is the fact that they arrived in >Philadelphia >> no later than 1808 (which is when the unification of Germany had begun) >and >> lived for a time in Pennsylvania before moving on--usually to MD, VA, WV, >or >> further south, or to the midwest. Before 1808 any arriving European of >> Germanic language and culture bore no allegiance to a German government or >> flag--only to a culture. They considered themselves to be Pennsylvanians >and >> NOT Germans--but they did call themselves Deutschmen! People arriving >after >> 1808 are more correctly called German-Americans." <!--EndFragment--> >> >> >> Who are the Amish? Are they the same as the Pennsylvania Dutch? >> >> The Amish are a religious group who live in settlements in 22 states and >> Ontario, Canada. The oldest group of Old Order Amish, about 16-18,000 >people >> live in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. The Amish stress humility, family >and >> community, and separation from the world. >> Although Lancaster Amish are Pennsylvania Dutch, all Pennsylvania Dutch >are >> not Amish. The Pennsylvania Dutch are natives of Central Pennsylvania, >> particularly Lancaster and its surrounding counties. Unlike the Amish, >they >> are not all one religion. Instead, their common bond is a mainly German >> background (Pennsylvania Dutch is actually Pennsylvania Deutsch, or >German). >> They also have Welsh, English, Scottish, Swiss, and French ancestry >> >> >> >> ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >> New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH >> are gladly advertised here. >> >> >> ============================== >> Create a FREE family website at MyFamily.com! >> http://www.myfamily.com/banner.asp?ID=RWLIST2 >> > > >==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== >New lists and web sites that are about the PA DUTCH >are gladly advertised here. > > >============================== >Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history >learning and how-to articles on the Internet. >http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library >

I reread this letter and you just might be right. However, the Rogers roots are Norman. I am sure many settled in Wales and intermarried, as they did in England and Ireland. Eva Marie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin B." <robinjb10@hotmail.com> To: <PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 10:36 AM Subject: [PADutch] Black Dutch=Welsh? > Eva Marie, I have Rogers and Griffiths who came from Wales between > 1850-1879, but they didn't go to PA. However, they were petite and > dark-haired with ruddy complexions, as your Rogers were. Perhaps Black > Dutch were early Welsh settlers to PA? Our family Bible had a weekly Welsh > language newspaper in it from Utica, NY dated 1851. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > Keep those PA DUTCH traditions alive and share them with the list. > > > ============================== > Visit Ancestry's Library - The best collection of family history > learning and how-to articles on the Internet. > http://www.ancestry.com/learn/library >