Please note that I have changed my address to maryjo@thegrid.com What good postings have I missed in the last two weeks? Still working on the Batdorfs, Bottorff, Pottorf etc. as well as Calkins. Hello to you all, and glad to be back. Mary Jo Fritz ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== We get too soon old and too late smart!

Schell/ Shell: Rev. John Casper Stoever's Records: 1. Peter Schell to Maria Catharine Walborn-Tulephocken, 6 Oct. 1730. Rev. William Boos: 1. Catharina Elizabeth Shell to Mathias Mueller, Heidelberg - 25 May 1784. 2. Heinrich Schell, Bern to Eva Lerch - 18 Nav. 1788. 3. Simon Schell, Heidelberg to Susanna Mueller - 23 Sept. 1794 4. Adam Schell, Bern to Elisabeth Kirschner - 2 Dec. 1794. Churches: Records were taken from 11 Churches in Berks Co. Christ Luthern Church, Stouchburg, Marion Twp: 1. Peter Schell, s/o Martin to Anna Maria Wolf d/o George - 2 April 1771. 2. Christian Shell, s/o Martin, to Sybilla Bechtel, d/o Nicholas, all of Tulpehocken 6 Sept. 1774. 3. John Schell, widower to Anna Maria Conrad - 19 Aug. 1788 4. Anna Maria Schell to Jacob Kobel - 8 Sept. 1789. 5. John Adam Schell to Maria Anspach - 4 Jan. 1795. Trinity Tulpehocken Reformed Church, at this time Tulpehocken Twp., now Jefferson Twp., Lebanon County. 1.Peter Schell to Barbara Schwerth - 12 Nov. 1796. St. Joseph's (Hill) Union Church, Pike Twp. 1.Anna Schell to Johannes Baumann - 22 Nov. 1796. Next will be the Obit's from "The Reading Adler" a German speaking Newspaper in Reading, Berks Co., PA. Sylvia ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ====

Kramer/Kraemer/Kremer: Rev. William Boos: Elisabeth Kramer to Martin Koch - 28 Oct. 1783 Heinrich Kremer, Maidencreek to Elisabeth Mueller - 29 June 1794. Missed this one because of the spelling, is it prnounced w/ an E or PA Dutch Dialect? This one starts w/ C, but in reality it ia a K, as it is a collateral line.\ Rev. Phillip Pauli: Jacob Craemer, to Catharine Mengel , both of Maidencreek - 30 Sept. 1800. I went through the 2 volumes & checked all spellings this time, I have a different setup, so I don't miss any names in future. Estate File Index for all variations can be found under KRAMER at Register of Wills, Berks County Courthouse, Reading, PA. I think they do mail research for $1.00 a page,ask first to make sure & always ask first how many pages, there can be many in an Estate File, consists of a will(if they had one, or if not an Adaminstration), Orphan Court Records, Real Estate, Inventory etc. Can have a large Estate File, but on other hand can be small., only 1 or 2 sheet. The Mormons filmed 1752 to 1850, they can be ordered from your local Family History Center. I have index from 1752 to 1883, but each Estate File may not be complete, they are finding new info, not alays but sometimes, depends on the name. Sometimes the Will doesn't name all the children, but the Estate File sometimes does, there are severar Will I got before they had Estate Files. I will send this to all lists so I don't have to retype the Estate File info, but will include Kramer in this E-mail, will send each other lists seperate. Kramer Estate Files in Berks County: There are 22 Kramer Estate Files, some original Spellings: Kremer, Creamer, Kreamer, but all can be found under KRAMER. It is so much for me to copy, therefore, why don't you ask me to look up , remember I have index only. I will do lookups for my lists only for now. You can see what lists under the cc: Sylvia P.S. Again only for my lists if you had someone die in Berks County, I do have the Abstracts for Wills & some Administrations, they have everything Genealogical valuable. If you ask for a look up be patient, I have several lists I didn't get to yet on the Records to 1800. Miller, Schmidt, Schneider are very big in Berks County. All good stuff takes time, and remember I am typing all this, I have no scanner. ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Visit other PDL listmember webpages. Links are Located at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlurl.html

We had a "shutup" post today. This type of post is specifically forbidden per the PDL webpage info re:posts. If you haven't yet visited the site, please do. <A HREF="http://members.aol.co m/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html">Penna-Dutch-L Home Page</A> or http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Forgot how to SUBSCRIBE or UNSUBSCRIBE? Send the appropriate one word message to PENNA-DUTCH-L-REQUEST@ROOTSWEB.COM

i think you miss the point of the question. it's not about "owning" surnames(that has never been an issue) it's about owning my labor. If I spend hundreds of hours compiling them over 17 months does a former listmember, contrary to my clear instructions, have the right to take my work(compilations-cemetery, church records or any other- are copyright protected, got nothing to do with ownership of the "surnames") and post them to his website. his website is an ego-driven effort to get website awards. My wife who doesn't work for broderbund but is an attorney and has confirmed a big "no". Actually it was a rhetorical question. If you've looked at the surnames list it is no small amount of work. why should someone, without my permission take my work to fatten up the content of their page? for the purpose of self-promotion? and after using my work as the foundation the webpage owner has the audacity to put an "all rights reserved" copyright statement on his borrowed work. This borrower was told by me to remove "my work: from his page and was also aske by some listmembers to remove their surnames email addresses etc. He has not done it. Further since he borrows the work, he never edits it or corrects it. so the point is....? But if your answer is really what you believe then why don't you do all the surnames list work in the future and tell me when its ready to post to the PDL webpage? At least I won't just take it from you. rod ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== New? Looking for a quick connection? Visit the surnames list associated with this mail list at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlsurnames.html

Hi, I am looking for information on the family of my great-great-grandmother Rachel Jennie KRAMER. I believe her father may be Benjamin KRAMER and that she may have had a brother named Benjamin KRAMER. Her tombstone says she was born in 1854. She appears in the 1880 census in East Earl Township, Lancaster County married to John AYERS. One of her son's delayed birth certificates says that she was born in Kinzer, Lancaster County. If anyone could help me on this line, I would be extremely grateful! Thanks Triste Elliott | "If you can't get rid of them ugly old cateline@chesco.com | skeletons in your closet, at least teach 'em | how to dance funny." Rev. Billy C. Wirtz ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Visit other PDL listmember webpages. Links are Located at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlurl.html

Seeking information on descendants of David SHERRICK/SHIRK, born ca 1753 Lancaster Co., PA, died bef 1831 York Co., PA. He was the son of Ulrich and Anna (SWARR) SCHERK. David married Barbara ERB, daughter of Jacob and Magdalene (SCHRANTZ) ERB. Barbara died March 1831 in Windsor Twp., York Co., PA. I descend through their son David, and would like to expand my database of descendants. Also am looking for contemporary records of David's life in York & Lancaster Cos. PA. Travis LeMaster Descendants of David Sherrick Generation No. 1 1. DAVID3 SHERRICK (ULRICH2 SCHERK, ULRICH1 SCHUERCH) was born Abt 1753 in Lancaster Co., PA, and died Bef 1831 in York Co., PA. He married BARBARA ERB, daughter of Jacob Erb and Magdalene Schrantz. Children of David Sherrick and Barbara Erb are: i. JOHN4 SHERRICK. ii. DAVID SHERRICK, b. Abt 1787, Pennsylvania; d. February 22, 1874, Ashland Co., OH1; m. EVE ???. Endnotes 1. Ashland County Cemetery Book Reprint of Early Vital Records of Ashland County, Ohio, Sarah Copus Chapter, NSDAR, Unigraphic, Evansville, IN, 1979 ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Abbreviations---PD=Pennsylvania Dutch, PMH=Pennsylvania Mennonite Heritage magazine, MFH=Mennonite family History magazine, MRJ=Mennonite Research Journal, LMHS=Lancaster Mennonite Hist. Society. This and more list info at: http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html

For Better, for Worse is the Tim Allen new movie due out in 'mid December. ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Have you visited the webpage associated with this mail list? If not go to http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html

I chose to give nothing to commercial enterprises, I work, they lurk and they benefit much more than I. The one CD I purchased was returned the same day as worthless to me. Live and learn. Yes, I see my inconsistency in giving nothing and still purchasing. These were steps in learning. JOyce Stevens Livonia, I ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== We get too soon old and too late smart!

Broderbund has rights in their compilation of data, not in the data itself, so enough already ! ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ====

In a message dated 97-11-07 12:03:20 EST, EllieSS@aol.com writes: > Sure don't want to be forbidden to use my own > information. A kinsman sent my family lineage to Broderbund (w/o my > permission) and that may even be "sticky"... Does anyone > know? Ellie, I think there is some misunderstanding here on someone's part. Broderbund does not take away your right to use your material any way you see fit in the future. They must obtain permission from the submitter to use it on their CDs--this is what is meant by their obtaining the rights. Read their information cafefully--nowhere does it say this takes any rights away from you. In fact, they specifically say they do NOT take away your rights. I for one have learned as much as I have given by putting my family information on the FTM World Family Tree CDs. I am glad I did it! And I am also thankful to the others whose information has been helpful to me have seen fit to do so also. I have met many cousins I would otherwise have never known. Joan Myers Young ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== New? Looking for a quick connection? Visit the surnames list associated with this mail list at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlsurnames.html

What's the name of the movie? ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Visit other PDL listmember webpages. Links are Located at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlurl.html

That's the reason I've never sent anything to Broderbund... for them to make a profit and keep it restrictive. I'm not sure what I will want to do with my own info in the future, but I certainly want to SHARE it if needed. That's what it is all about, or so I thought! ? Presently I'm writing several family histories and want to make them useful for anyone needing to connect. Sure don't want to be forbidden to use my own information. A kinsman sent my family lineage to Broderbund (w/o my permission) and that may even be "sticky"... Does anyone know? EllieSS@aol.com ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Visit other PDL listmember webpages. Links are Located at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlurl.html

Julie - I am not an expert on this. My opinion is that the surnames I am researching and my e-mail address was contributed to the Penna-Dutch list - and does not become public property for anyone to post to their webpage without my permission. I, for one, am grateful to Rod for the time and effort he has put in maintaining this list and respect his opinion on this subject. Betty ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Abbreviations---PD=Pennsylvania Dutch, PMH=Pennsylvania Mennonite Heritage magazine, MFH=Mennonite family History magazine, MRJ=Mennonite Research Journal, LMHS=Lancaster Mennonite Hist. Society. This and more list info at: http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html

According to Broderbund software, no one "owns" surnames. However, other details surrounding that individual such as service in ARW or CW, whether they came to an area by boat or covered wagon, family legends, etc. are covered by copyright and not freely transferable. Those of us who submit to FTM for the World Family Tree project were warned to make certain that there is no information in our notes that we would wish to later publish because once FTM transfers everything to CD and the World Family Tree, then those items become the property of Broderbund software who owns the copyright on the WFT. If someone "owned" the surnames, then none of us would get anywhere, would we? This is a part of their guidelines, as I understand them, for working with their copyrights and developing our family trees. However, if we take the surnames from them, then we need to give recognition of that. Julie PennaDutch@aol.com wrote: > every once in awhile someone who has never made an unauthorized > photocopy > posts a lecture on copyright. will they or someone else explain to me > what I > don't understand about the following: > > Over a year ago there was this mail list located at maiser and a > webpage I > didn't announce or put time into. There was also the "Ruckel family > history > homepage". kraig ruckel was a member of this group. > > Some months ago he changed the name to "Palatine and Pennsylvania > Dutch > homepage" > > The problem is that not only does he essentially borrow the name and > concept > of this list, he has in fact,without my permission, posted my > compilations of > surnames onto his webpage with the caution "all rights reserved..." I > have > since told him to remove the pirated work(how many others?) which he > has > never done. Yet he clamors for webpage awards. how nice, if only it > was his > product. (since kraig only borrows my compilation, his list never gets > > corrected. it is filled with defunct and changed addresses of PD > listmembers) > > There was a to-do when I told him to remove everything he has borrowed > from > this mail list and we lost some listmembers who inexplicably got in > the > middle. despite being told by them to remove their surnames from his > page, he > has not. So for those who enjoy plagiarism/copyright debate please > tell me > what I don't understand and tell me why ruckel deserves accolades for > "his" > work > > rod > > ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== > New? Looking for a quick connection? Visit the surnames list > associated with this mail list at > http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlsurnames.html ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Abbreviations---PD=Pennsylvania Dutch, PMH=Pennsylvania Mennonite Heritage magazine, MFH=Mennonite family History magazine, MRJ=Mennonite Research Journal, LMHS=Lancaster Mennonite Hist. Society. This and more list info at: http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html

Saw a movie preview about a future release. It depicts Tim Allen and Kirstie Allie as a married couple in deep doodoo with the government, specifically the IRS. They run away to hide and end up living with an Amish couple. I'm not sure yet whether the portrayal of the Amish makes them appear foolish. Hope not. Joyce Stevens Livonia, MI ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Post your PD Holiday recipes!

Sorry if this is a repeat but I'm not sure if my message was sent out. I am looking for someone who may have a Mary Sworm/Swarm (spelled both ways), in their genealogical line. She was married to a Henry Sassaman and the date is estimated. She could have been a daughter of Jacob or Joseph Sworm. They lived in Union County, Pa. around the 1820's. I'll take any Mary Sworm in Union County, Pa. I can get, I'm desperate! ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Visit other PDL listmember webpages. Links are Located at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlurl.html

every once in awhile someone who has never made an unauthorized photocopy posts a lecture on copyright. will they or someone else explain to me what I don't understand about the following: Over a year ago there was this mail list located at maiser and a webpage I didn't announce or put time into. There was also the "Ruckel family history homepage". kraig ruckel was a member of this group. Some months ago he changed the name to "Palatine and Pennsylvania Dutch homepage" The problem is that not only does he essentially borrow the name and concept of this list, he has in fact,without my permission, posted my compilations of surnames onto his webpage with the caution "all rights reserved..." I have since told him to remove the pirated work(how many others?) which he has never done. Yet he clamors for webpage awards. how nice, if only it was his product. (since kraig only borrows my compilation, his list never gets corrected. it is filled with defunct and changed addresses of PD listmembers) There was a to-do when I told him to remove everything he has borrowed from this mail list and we lost some listmembers who inexplicably got in the middle. despite being told by them to remove their surnames from his page, he has not. So for those who enjoy plagiarism/copyright debate please tell me what I don't understand and tell me why ruckel deserves accolades for "his" work rod ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== New? Looking for a quick connection? Visit the surnames list associated with this mail list at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlsurnames.html

Goodmam/ Gutman/ Guthman: Rev. John Casper Stoever: 1. Stephen Gutman to Eva Margaretha Kreutzer - Tulpehockin - 23 Mar 1739. 2. Catarina Margaret Guthman- Northkill to George Muench- 5 Jan. 1752. Rev. Carl Friedrich Wildbahn: 1. Samuel Gutman, s/o Peter, Reading to Maria Schreffler, oldest d/o Christoph, Reading - 15 Nov. 1789. Rev. Phillip Pauli: 1.Peter Gutman, Reading to Betsy Nagel - 12 Nov. 1797. 2. Elisabeth Gutmann to Gabriel Gansert, Alsace - 5 Aug. 1800 3. Johannes Gutman to Maria Magdalena Schumacher - 25 Nov 1792. (#3 entry is also in Rev. Wm. Boos Record, Rev. Boos served at First Reformed Church, 1789 to 1792 & Rev. Phillip Pauli, 1793 to 1815.) Rev. William Boos: 1. Maria Gutmann to Phillip Emmerich, Alsace - 16 June 1782. 2. Jacob Gutmann, Oley to Magdalena Mueller - 6 April 1783 3. Eva Gutmann to Johannes Ehrwein, Reading - 11 June 1797. 4. Maria Gutmann to Louis Hildebrant, Exeter - 31 March 1799. 5. Susanna Gutman to Jacob Kraul, Reading - 8 June 1794. Churches in Berks Co, 1730-1800 next. Sylvia ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Have you visited the webpage associated with this mail list? If not go to http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html

I hate to forward this but it might be important to someone. Doug's Line: John E. Goodman married Catharine Armell not Catharine Arman. The Chronicle of the Times, page3. Edition, April 6, 1823,on Thursday last,by same= Rev. Muhlenberg: Mr. John Goodman & Catharine Armell of this borough (Reading, PA.) History of Berks by Morton Montgomery calls her Catharine Allison in a Goodman Bio(which has many errors). Her mother Maria was born in N.J. acc to a census, Maria married John Lindenkugel. John came to this country in 1803,1 yr. after Catharine was born. Maria & John had a son born 1810. Also I said they were of Reformed faith, Rev. Henry A. Muhlenberg, D.D. served Trinity Luthern Church, Reading, PA. from 1803 to 1828, therefore, you will find the family in both TLC and First Reformed in Reading. I stand corrected. Sylvia --------------------- Forwarded message: From: BeatAGoose@aol.com Resent-from: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com To: GOODMAN-L@rootsweb.com CC: PENNA-DUTCH-L@rootsweb.com Date: 97-11-03 04:50:09 EST My husband,s Gutman/Goodman family is from Reding, Berks Co., PA. I am pretty sure they were from Exeter Twp. before moving to Reading. The church records(Minister) sometimes spelled it Gutman/Guthman. I find other than church records named spelled Goodman. Jacob Goodma,b.8 March 1780 - d., 21 Nov. 1844. Married Catharine Levan, d/o Jacob and Susanna(Ludwig) Levan, b. 1779 & d. 16 Dec. 1849, both buried at Charles Evans Cemetery, Reading, PA. Children: 1. My husbands line: John E. Goodman, b. 26 Oct. 1801 married Catharine Arman (d/o John Armen? need more proof & Elizabeth Armen ? Evidently was raised by John Lindekunkle who only came to America 1803, her mother was born in N.J. Catherine was born 29 April 1802. 2. Peter Goodman 3. George Michael Goodman 4. Ruebin Goodman 5. Aaron Goodman 6. Isreal Goodman 7. Lewis Goodman 8. Margareth Goodman 9. Esther Goodman 10. Amos Goodman 11. Maria Goodman 12. Magdalena Goodman Goodman's belonged to 1st Reformed Church, Reading, PA. John Goodman ( Doug's line) had a Wheelwright Shop in Reading, PA. Before I add anything else to list, I want to know if you want the Goodman/ Gutman/Guthman, German Family from Readin, Berks Co. is acceptable to the list. Doug's mother was a Goodman. Sylvia and Douglas Graybill ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== Abbreviations---PD=Pennsylvania Dutch, PMH=Pennsylvania Mennonite Heritage magazine, MFH=Mennonite family History magazine, MRJ=Mennonite Research Journal, LMHS=Lancaster Mennonite Hist. Society. This and more list info at: http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pennadutch.html ==== PENNA-DUTCH Mailing List ==== New? Looking for a quick connection? Visit the surnames list associated with this mail list at http://members.aol.com/PennaDutch/pdlsurnames.html