Hi David Yes this has always been my understanding of the original derivation of the name PAYNE even wider than just Scotland. Those outside the major cities - "the country dwellers" which is more like the original meaning - were more likely to be non-Christians and so the name changed from country dwellers to Pagan to PAYNE, PAIN or PAINE, a point that has always interested me The word PAGAN itself is Middle English from the Latin 'paganus: 'villager, rustic' from pagus 'country district': in Christian Latin = 'civilian, heathen'. The meaning of civilian has been suggested that it was because the Christians reckoned themselves soldiers of Christ, though I wonder if it was also because the (Roman) soldiers would have taken their discharge, been recruited from and/or garrisoned cities. It would follow from this that my PAYNE/PAINE/PAIN family which I can trace back to Great Addington, NTH, ENG IN 1813 would not necessarily be related to your family - something like the SMITH families no being necessarily all related. Rev Jim PAYNE Jim & Bev Payne NEW ZEALAND jr_bjpayne@xtra.co.nz -----Original Message----- From: David Payne [mailto:otime1@yahoo.com] Sent: 24 October 2000 11:53 a.m. To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Pagan