Does anyone know what Payne family is referred to in the following excerpt from a relative's obituary in 1902: "The Payne family is of great antiquity and one of the oldest in this country. John and William Payne, brothers of Sir Robert Payne, came over to America in 1620. They were both knighted by King James I before leaving England. Mrs. B's particular branch of the family were 6 brothers who settled on the James River in Virginia." Is this a serious and researchable bit of family history, or just some family legend? I have been unable to find any such group of people. Any suggestions from Payne family researchers? Richard Reeves < Pesterp2@aol.com >

At 12:38 AM 9/6/00 -0400, Pesterp2@aol.com wrote: >Does anyone know what Payne family is referred to in the following excerpt >from a relative's obituary in 1902: > "The Payne family is of great antiquity and one of the oldest in this >country. John and William Payne, brothers of Sir Robert Payne, came over to >America in 1620. They were both knighted by King James I before leaving >England. Mrs. B's particular branch of the family were 6 brothers who settled >on the James River in Virginia." There was definitely a Sir Robert Payne of Medloe and St. Neots, Huntingdonshire. He was MP for Hunts. between 1614 and 1625 (replacing Oliver Cromwell in the latter year). He died in Hunts. circa 1647. His father was also named Robert Payne, as was his great-grandfather and possibly his grandfather as well. From what I have learned in researching Sir Robert, his father seems to have married a sister of Lawrence HAWES, of Cambridge (near to St. Neots). Lawrence named his brother-in-law, Robert Payne, as an executor to his will. Either Robert's grandfather or his great-grandfather was responsible for the dissolution of the church lands in Huntingdonshire during the reformation under Henry VIII. The Payne's of Hunts. were closely associated with the MONTAGU'S, RUSSELL'S and CROMWELL'S. As for siblings of Sir Robert, none are known with certainty. His official record at the College of Arms does not name any. He was created knight on March 22, 1605 at Gravesend. He is thought to have been born about 1597. To my knowledge, there has been no in depth research done on Sir Robert and his family other than some correspondence conducted over 50 years ago by Col. Brooke Payne with the College of Arms. As a result, we are largely in the dark. I spent two weeks in Hunts. last year to come up with these tid-bits. There is much more to add, but it is taking me forever to pull it all together. I hope to lend support to (if not prove) A. W. Paine's (Payne Genealogy- Ipswich Branch, 1881) conjecture that Sir Robert's great-grandfather, Robert, was the son of Sir Thomas Payne of Market Bosworth, Leicestershire. > Is this a serious and researchable bit of family history, or just some >family legend? I have been unable to find any such group of people. Any >suggestions from Payne family researchers? Along with this "legend" Brooke Payne in "Paynes of Virginia" identified about 13 other versions. None have offered any references in proof. But they are all curiously similar, which leads me to believe that there is some truth to be found in them. I personally don't believe that Sir Robert had any brothers named William or John that were knighted and then came to America. However, I do believe that Capt. George Payne which married Rachel HAWES in 1634 was the son of Sir Robert. George was a mariner and partner of the leading merchant brothers, Joseph and Nathaniel Hawes of London. They were also the brothers-in-law of merchant Randell MAINWARRING, who married Rachel's elder sister, Elizabeth Hawes. Randell Mainwarring was the cousin of New England merchant, Mathew CRADDOCK whose factor in New England had been (Gov.) Thomas MAYHEW, who had married the widow, Jane GALLION, of Thomas PAYNE "late merchant of London." Thomas Payne and Jane Gallion married in Wantage, Berkshire in 1620. In 1639, Thomas Mayhew and Jane Gallion named Richard Payne of Abingdon, Berks. as their attorney and procurator of the lands in Northamptonshire left to Thomas Payne, Jr. Of particular note here is that John PAYNE of Lancaster and Rappahannock County, Virginia (subject of Paynes of Virginia) was ALSO a partner of Joseph and Nathaniel Hawes. Together, they owned the ship JOHN and DOROTHY, which brough Adam THOROUGHGOOD to Virginia in 1634/5. In Thoroughgoods resulting land patent in lower Norfolk County, Virginia (he claimed some 120 head rights- "Cavaliers and Pioneers, Vol. 1, p. 22) we find the names John WITHERS and John REYNOLDS. Withers was named in an Admiralty Court case as having been a servant of John Payne, who had been living in Dublin, Ireland, about 1634. Also named in the court case was Col. John WALKER. Walker's daughter, Anne, married John PAYNE, Jr. (d. 1669) in Virginia. As for John REYNOLDS, the name appears in 1673 as the executor of the will of Thomas Paine of St. Mary's County, Maryland. I believe that this John Payne (Sr.) is the source for the John, brother of Sir Robert. I have a similar explanation for the William, but I'll withhold that for now, except to say that I have discovered that there are deeds in Northampton County, Virginia naming William Payne of Ipswich, Massachusetts. Thomas Mayhew and Matthew Craddock were close to John WINTHROP, whose son, John Jr., initiated the New England Iron Works that William Payne "of Ipswich and Boston" had invested heavily in and eventually became the proprietor of the works at Saugus. Another heavy investor had been Gov. William BERKELEY of Virginia. Berkeley had attempted his own iron works project in Virginia at MARTINS Hundred, but the forge was destroyed in an Indian attack before it went into production. Martins Hundred had been patented to Capt. John MARTIN, who, in 1638, had transported the family of Stephen PAYNE (d. 21 Aug 1679), "of Great Ellingham, Norfolk, England and Rehoboth, Mass." to New England aboard the DILLIGENT. I'll leave the rest for another time. Resources: "The History of Parliament," published by Cambridge University Press under the auspices of The History of Parliament Trust by Act of Parliament, 1926. "Thomas Lechford's Note-Book", Picton Press "Merchants and Revolution," Princeton University Press, 1994 "The New England Merchants in the Seventeenth Century," Bernard Bailyn, 1955 "Victoria's History of the Counties of England- Huntingdonshire" "Origin and Migration of the English Atlantic World," Alison Games, 1999 "Cavaliers and Pioneers, Vol. 1," Nugent "Records of the Virginia Company of London" "Hotten's Lists" John Camden Hotten "Northamptonshire Deeds and Wills" Regards, Patrick Payne Atlanta, Georgia