Cousins, I have corresponding with Robert King, see below, and he seems to have found new info on some of our Paynes and may have a different outlook on our Paynes than we have had before. Seems he has done his homework too. He has written a book that may be of interest to many of the descendants of Ralph Payne that was in Essex Co. VA in the mid 1600s. Robert King <reking@alaska.net> wrote: Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 13:50:09 -0900 From: Robert King Reply-to: reking@alaska.net To: "David S. Payne" CC: Jerry Wilson , Kitty Alexander , johnthepayen@yahoo.com, jtpayne1@mindspring.com Subject: Ralph Payne and his family Hello David, and Happy Easter, Thank you for forwarding recent e-mail from John Payne and Jim Payne. If I understand the information you sent, both John and Jim are descendants of Barnett Payne/Paine who married Elizabeth, with Barnett (per Jim's data) also known as Barnabus or Barnard Paine. And if I also understand this correspondence, both John and Jim apparently found your (David's) statement that Ralph Payne "had four known sons, John, Thomas, Robert, and Bernard." Now, both John and Jim are considering if this is true. For clarification, the Ralph Payne I refer to is the Ralph Payne/Paine mentioned in records as being in what is now Essex County, Virginia as least as early as 7 Feb 1652. On that date, he was listed as a landowner there in a parent of 1250 acres to Samuel Parry who was obtaining nearby land. This 7 Feb 1652 patent to Parry is recorded in the following book: "[Virginia] Land Office Patents No. 3 (1652-1655)," page 81. The original patent can be viewed on the Library of Virginia web site. At that time (7 Feb 1652), the region where Ralph Payne/Paine lived was part of Lancaster County, VA, and then became part of "Old" Rappahannock, VA in 1656. Still later, it became part of Essex County in 1692. I know of no earlier documentary evidence for Ralph Payne being in Virginia prior to 7 Feb 1652. Thus, I believe that the most accurate statement about him would be that he settled in Virginia by 7 Feb 1652, but how much earlier is unknown. Similarly unknown are any members of his immediate family (possible sons or daughters) other than one son, Thomas Payne, who is specifically mentioned to be his son in the following record recorded in Old Rappahannock County, VA Deed Book 7, pages 513-516, located in the Essex County, VA courthouse in Tappahannock, VA. This deed, dated 17 Jan 1688 reported that Thomas Payne was selling land which had been patented to his father, Ralph Payne, in 1655. The deed directly calls Thomas Payne as the "son" of Ralph Payne. Apart from this connection, I have never found any other contemporary deeds, court records, wills, or anything else giving even a clue as to other children of Ralph Payne. I'd be delighted if any such records exist, but after many years of tracking down Payne records, I'm getting doubtful that they do exist. So who was Barnett Payne? I really don't have any idea. The best study I have seen of the early Payne Payne/Paine families of the region was done by Col. Brooke Payne. He published a book in 1937, entitled "The Paynes of Virginia," which focused on his line of Paynes who descended, he reported, from a John Payne who settled in Lancaster Co., Va. Yet, in studying his ancestry, his research turned up no fewer than four other families of Paynes/Paines, about which he provided brief overviews in his book. This included Payne families in Northumberland County, in Westmoreland County, and in Essex County--with the latter people NOT connected to the Ralph Payne group of Paynes which he termed still another group: the "Rappahannock group." I am NO authority on any of these other (non-Ralph Payne) groups of Paynes. I am also not an authority on still other early Paynes and Payne families which were in Virginia prior to 1700 and NOT mentioned in Col. Payne's wonderful book. Re! search on them hopefully will be done (or is being done) by other people. My notes on them are fragmentary at best. Instead, my focus has been on the Ralph Payne family from which I descend, and, as noted, I just have found nothing whatsoever to connect any children to him other than the one son Thomas. Hope that helps a little, and if anyone does have documentary evidence to show that Ralph Payne had more children, please let me know. Also, if anyone can prove that Ralph Payne were alive after October of 1659, I'd appreciate that information also. From my research, the last known reference to him is dated October 1659 (exact day in October not reported), when he and his apparent brother Thomas Payne served to help appraise "Rockingham," the name of the estate of a former neighbor, Lieut. Colonel Tobias Smith. This was done at the request of the local court and is recorded in Old Rappahannock County, VA Deed Abstracts 1656-1664, Part 1, p. 61; also in Essex County, VA Deed Book 2, p. 98; plus in Col. Payne's 1937 book on page 4. Because Ralph Payne is not found in known later records of the region (after October 1659), and because his apparent brother Thomas Payne is mentioned quite a bit in these records until his death in the 1660s, this can be taken as circumstantial evidence that Ralph Payne MIGHT have died fairly soon after October 1659. While this is NOT PROOF, this speculation is reasonable given what I have said about the know records for Ralph Payne. In my view, to think that Ralph Payne lived on for several years afterwards and was not mentioned at all in any more records, and also had several more children just isn't as easy to square with the few facts which can be proven about Ralph Payne. Sincerely, Robert King "David S. Payne" wrote: Robert, Check out this query that may correspond with our discussions. David john payne <johnthepayne@yahoo.com> wrote: Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:54:17 -0800 (PST) From: john payne Subject: BERNARD PAYNE, SON OF RALPH PAYNE To: jtpayne1@mindspring.com, "Gale \(Michael\) Nagy" , otime1@yahoo.com, ppayne1203@earthlink.net, "Rich \(Joyce\) Payne" Everybody: This information has me interested. Ralph Payne was born ca 1625 in England and moved to Virginia by 1650. He had four known sons, John, Thomas, Robert, and Bernard. Since all four of these names are common in our Spotsylvania Co. Paynes, it does make you wonder. The earliest known ancestor of our line is Barnett Paine, who marrried Elizabeth _________. Their first child was born ca 1692, which would fit in well with his having been born ca 1670. I have seen the names Bernard and Barnett used interchangably as regards to our anc! estor. I am wondering if Ralph Payne is not the father of our Barnett Paine. Another point to consider: Ralph Payne lived in Rappahanock Co., VA, which I believe eventually became Essex Co., VA. Essex and King and Queen Counties were two of the counties that eventually formed Spotsylvania Co., VA. ALso, Barnett Paine lived in King and Queen County, which adjoined Essex Co. I would love to hear from all of you about this. John Payne johnthepayne@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ David S. Payne, 1614 Chapman Rd., Anderson, SC, 864-225-3253 otime1@yahoo.com My line: http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=otime Searching for surnames mostly in Upstate SC/GA: ADDISON, ALLISON,ARENDALL, CANADY, CORBIN, COX, CRAIG, DEAN, FOWLER, HALEY, GORDON, HENSON, JAMES, McMILLIAN, McPHERSON, MOODY, PARKER, PAYNE, POINDEXTER, REDWINE, REID, SWANN, WEST, TODD, WHITMIRE --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send greetings for Easter, Passover