Robert, Still, we don't know whether Bernard was or wasn't Ralph's son, do we? I will keep an open mind on this until we find more and I think now we will since we got lots of folks looking. Also Bowie has about 1635 date for Ralph Payne's birth, so they, as we, don't know when he was born for sure. Right? David Robert King <reking@alaska.net> wrote: Jim and David, With due respect to everyone, I assume that you will now question Jack and Sharon Bowie as to where they got the information on Ralph Payne supposedly having more children than just Thomas. If they have documentary evidence, then great! I would be delighted to learn about it! But if they don't have documentary evidence, then you will have to make your own judgments as to what to believe. As you know, there is a lot of family information posted on the web based only on incorrect assumptions and second-hand "sources" without real proof, so we all must be very cautious in doing genealogical work off the web unless we verify our findings with original source records. From my research in original records, I have found no contemporary documents to even suggest that Ralph Payne had more children than the one named Thomas. The Bowie web site also has other statements which you may wish to weigh very carefully. One is the statement that Ralph Payne was "born Abt. 1635." In earlier e-mail I provided evidence that Ralph Payne most likely was born several years prior to 1635. In brief, here's why: Virginia land patent records show that Ralph received a land patent in 1652 for land in what is now Essex County, VA for transporting people to Virginia (you can even download a copy of this 1652 patent from the Library of Virginia web site). If he were born "Abt. 1635," then he'd have been about 17 years old when this happened in 1652. To me, it seems most unlikely that a teenager could have financed transporting people to America and I'm also not at all sure that any teenagers could have qualified to have gotten land patents simply because they were not of legal age. Thus, I conclude that Ralph Payne most likely must have been of legal age (21 or older) by 1652, though how much older is unproveable. As to the birth year of his son, Thomas Payne, contemporary records suggest that Thomas was born earlier than "Abt. 1660." Here's the evidence: "Old" Rappahannock, VA Deed Abstracts 1672-1676. Part 2, page 67 reports that a Thomas Payne served as a witness in court on 27 Sept 1673. Since Ralph Payne's apparent brother Thomas Payne had died in 1663, then presumably the Thomas Payne of 1673 is Ralph's son since we know of no other Thomas Paynes at this time in this area. Being a witness in 1673 probably meant that he was at least in his later teens, and, I suspect, more likely was an adult (age 21+). Thus, I think that Thomas Payne, son of Ralph Payne, was born several years prior to "Abt. 1660." Maybe early 1650's and possibly even before that, though exactly when I don't really know and I don't think anyone else knows either. (And indeed, I don't think that anyone can really prove that he was born in Virginia. Just possibly he was born BEFORE the family settled in Virginia. Again, we just cannot prove it one way or the other.) In earlier e-mails I also pointed out that Thomas Payne, son of Ralph Payne, cannot be proven to have died in 1698 either. Records discuss his estate, but only because he had apparently left the region due to debt problems, and the records discussing his estate were only in regard to selling his property to pay off his debts NOT because Thomas was dead. Also, I sent previously sent e-mail explaining that 9 of the children of Thomas Payne (II), who died in 1761, most likely were all from his 1st wife, Catherine Lydford. Jane Bush was only the mother of Sarah, as far as I can determine. While some people have claimed that Thomas Payne (II)'s 1758 will indicates that William and some of the other children of Thomas (II) were children of Jane Bush, that is only an assumption. The Thomas Payne (II) 1758 will makes no such definitive statement concerning which wife was the mother of which children. His son William Payne (died 1818), as I also pointed out, was born sometime between the mid-1720s and the 1730s. He certainly was born well before "Abt. 1747." Among other things, William was having children by the mid-1750's, so most certainly was more than 8 years old when his first children were born. As for Col. Brooke Payne's book and records, yes, for certain, if you have the opportunity, do go through his unpublished records. But his book is valuable too, especially if you have never seen it before. I truly hope you can find clues in it or in his unpublished records on your Bernard Payne family. I, too, am curious who Bernard Payne was since he was not the son of Ralph Payne or of Ralph's apparent brother Thomas Payne (d. 1663). Good luck! Robert King Jim wrote: Thanks David. This is what I was looking for. It has the right wife for Bernard, Another tiny scrap... "David S. Payne" wrote: Jim, I didn't get the info from Kevin Allen <critter@mnic.net> I do have a file from Jack and Sharon Bowie jsbowie@erols.com that has Bernard as a son and it has lots of other info on Weekes, Minors, Montagues, etc. that I am attaching and I don't know much about these Bowies. It has been a while. The Attached file has lots of good info in it but I haven't proven the info yet. Jim <jtpayne1@mindspring.com> wrote: Thanks, Robert. I believe we do then have the same question. David, I note on your page with Ralph's sons, you have a reference to the email critter@mnic.net. Is this the source of your information conncerning Ralph's sons? There seems to be some detail beyond just the names implying some underlying documentation that might be worth consideration. Robert, I don't have a copy of Brooke Payne's book nor have I seen one. Among those with whom I've communicated concerning our branch, there seems to be a consensus that his unpublished material is our best bet. It was David's update on getting that meterial on line that brought his site to my attention. David S. Payne, 1614 Chapman Rd., Anderson, SC, 864-225-3253 otime1@yahoo.com My line: http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=otime Searching for surnames mostly in Upstate SC/GA: ADDISON, ALLISON,ARENDALL, CANADY, CORBIN, COX, CRAIG, DEAN, FOWLER, HALEY, GORDON, HENSON, JAMES, McMILLIAN, McPHERSON, MOODY, PARKER, PAYNE, POINDEXTER, REDWINE, REID, SWANN, WEST, TODD, WHITMIRE --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax