This was originally drafted as a response to an e-mail I had received about our DNA project. Since it directly relates to our project and some of the reasons for it, I decided to post to the list as well. At 09:30 AM 06/11/2002 -0400, you wrote: >John Payne and his wife Anne Jones were in King George Co., VA. Anne and his >son Reuben were named executors of his estate 1762 and the will was >witnessed by George Payne, James Pair and James Glendenning. John Payne b. >1696 Richmond Co., VA d. 1762 naming wife Ann and son, Reuben: exors.. I have this John born ca. 1696 Richmond Co., son of George Payne (d. 2 May 1711) of Richmond Co., and probably of "Red House," now Westmoreland, by his wife, Jane(?), dau. of Thomas White (d. 1687) of Mattox Creek. John was a grandson of the immigrant John Payne (d. 1689/90). I have John's death date as 2 July 1772 (as found in "The Paynes of Virginia" unless I have transcribed it wrong). His sibliings include: George Payne (d. 1745 K.G. Co.), who was under-Sheriff of Richmond Co. and m1. Martha ___ (who m2. John Peyton), m2. Mary ___; Thomas Payne (b. ca. 1700); William Payne (ca. 1702-bef. 1770) of Richmond Co., m1. bef. 1732 K.G. Co., Mary Jones, m2. bef. 1750 K.G., Mary Ball, by whom he had 12 children; Jane Payne (b. ca. 1703). >Records of Fauquier Co., VA; 1771, Reuben Payne leased 140 and 200 acres in >Manor of Leeds¹ from Lord Fairfax listing heirs wife Ann and son Colson¹ >(Warren Co OH records). In 1775, William Payne rec¹d lease in Manor of Leeds >for life of himself, wife Ann (Pannell) and son, Frank; adj. to Francis >Payne. The Paynes of Virginia gives Reubens wife as Elizabeth Wilkerson (see p. 377), citing the will of Gerrard Wilkerson of Hanover Parish, K.G. Co., dated 1789, which refers to his daughter Elizabeth Payne. In 1790-1814, Reuben paid taxes continuously in Orange County. In 1815, he and wife Elizabeth sold to son Charles their 100 acres on the west side of Russell Run and went to visit his son William in Ro. Co., to whom he deeded all his personal estate in the same year. So the 1771 record you cite, where Reuben had leased 140 acres and 200 acres in the Manor of Leeds listing his heirs as wife Ann and son Colson (or Colston?), must be referring to his mother, Ann, rather than wife. Further, POV states Reuben married about 1772, so this record may be before he married. To complicate matters, POV lists five children by Reuben and Elizabeth: William H., Gabriel, Elizabeth, Sally and Charles. No Colson (or Colston). However, if the record you cite can be trusted (other than the name of his wife) I suppose that it would serve to at least identify Colson's parents and it is evident that Colson had a connection with the family. All else in your post was new to me as I have only a partial interest in this line. What I find interesting about it all is that this line of the Smoot family had its origin in Charles County, Maryland (with interests in St. Mary's as well). They later had interests in King George County (my home) where a Lewis Egerton Smoot dedicated the library here. He descended from the Charles County family. Another line, that I have not been able to place, but who evidently also descend from the Charles Co. Md. group was Elizabeth Jenifer, daughter of Daniel Jenifer Smoot (29 Jan. 1792-8 Aug. 1865). Elizabeth Jenifer Smoot married 24 Dec. 1844 in Madison County, Va., Albert W. Payne (1819-1854), a descendant of the immigrant John Payne (d. 1689/90) of Westmoreland County. The reason that I say they must descend from the Maryland group is due to the name Jenifer. There were several Daniel Jenifer's of Maryland that the Smoot's appear to have adopted their name from. There was a Daniel "of St. Thomas" Jenifer of St. Mary's, son of Dr. Daniel Jenifer, who was son of Capt. Daniel "of St. Thomas" Jenifer (b. 1672) of Accomack County, Virginia, who later removed to Calvert and St. Mary's County. He married Elizabeth, granddaughter of John Michael, Sr. (d. 1679) of Graft, Holland & Lower Norfolk County, Virginia, and his wife, Elizabeth, daughter of Adam Thoroughgood (1604-1640) by Sarah Offley (1609-1657). Adam Thoroughgood had come to Virginia in 1635 aboard the John & Dorothy, John Payne, Commander. I believe this John Payne later settled in Westmoreland County and is the subject of the Paynes of Virginia. Elizabeth Michael (wife of Capt. Daniel Jenifer), was a niece of Sarah, daughter of Col. Southey Littleton of Northampton County. Sarah's sister, Eshter, was the 3rd wife of Col. William Whittington (1650-1720) of Accomack, Va. and Somerset Co., Md. Now it gets really interesting for me as Whittington's 2nd wife (and her 4th husband), Elizabeth Spinke, was a daughter of Thomas Spinke of St. Mary's, Maryland, by Jane Payne, a daughter of Thomas Payne (d. bef. 1731) and Tecla Thompson. [See Whitelaw, "Virginia's Eastern Shore] Whittington's 1st wife, Attalanta Toft, was a daughter of Mrs. Ann Toft (d. 1688) of Back Creek, Accomack County, Va. In 1668/9, Mrs Ann Toft is listed in Accomack Co. Court Orders, vol. II, p. 146, as having received land in Accomack for transporting several persons, including an Izard Payne- whom we have been unable to trace. I suspect that Izard had been a kinsman of the burgess Florentine Payne who had been partnered with Richard Lee I (m. Anne Constable), and also a kinsman of Daniel Payne, who had married Hannah Scarburgh, a granddaughter of Col. Edmund Scarburgh of Accomack & Northampton County, with whom Ann Toft had been closely associated with. So close that it has led some to speculate they were man and wife. About 1652, William Payne, of Boston and Ipswich, Mass., who descended from the Paynes of Suffolk, England, began a collection effort to recover money owed to him by Col. Edmund Scarburgh. This account appears in Northampton County Orders, Deeds & Wills, 1651-1654, Book VI, p. 170, citing folio 197. This record states "Be it known unto all men by these presents that I, William PAYNE (as opposed to Paine which some researchers today like to argue over the spelling of) of Ipswich in New England merchant have made, nominated, constituted, and appointed and by these presents do make, nominate, ordaine, constitute and appoint and in my place and stead put my loving friend William Stangridge of Virginia mariner my true and lawfull attorney for me and in my name and to my use, to ask, claim, recover and receive all and singular such debts, due, demands, sum and sums of money due, owing, and appertaining unto me, the said Wm. Payne by Mr. Edmund Scarburgh of Virginia by bill, bond, account, or otherwise, how so ever in Virginia, giving and by these presents granting unto my said attor. my full power and lawful authority for me and in my name, to sue, arrest, attach, declare, implead, imprison, condemn, and release the said debter, acquittance or acquittances or any other lawful discharge for such sum or sums as he shall receive for me and in my name to make, seal, and deliver one attorney or more under him to ordain and make, and at his pleasure again to revoke and more over to say, do execute, perform, conclude and finish what so ever matter or things shall be need full or requisite, in or about the premisses as fully and effectually as I, myself maybe might do (if I were there personally present) and had done the same myself ratifying, confirming and establishing whatsoever my said attorney shall happen lawfully to do or cause to be done in and about the promises and there unto I bind myself, my heirs, execs., and admins firmly by these presents. In witness where of I have here unto set my hand and seal the ninth day of October in the year of Our Lord one thousand six hundred fifty two. [signed] William Payne. recorded sexto die September 1654 per Edm. Mathews clk cur. [Note, William Stangridge's will was probated in Northampton County 28(?) April 1655:- "My beloved wife Mary Stangridge and my friend William Kendall extrs. and my whole estate to eq. div. betwixt them..." As late as 1654, although Stangridge had made good on his effort to collect the debt for William Payne, it had not been resolved. In a record from Northampton County Order Book V, fol. 24, dated 28 Aug. 1654 [assuming Stangridge was by this time ill], William Kendall had taken over the collection effort on William Payne's behalf:- "Whereas William Kendall, the lawful attorney of William Payne of Ipswich in New England merchant hath this day petitioned the court, against Lt. Col. Edmund Scarburgh for three hundred & seventy pounds sterling money (as ____ of the cause, before the court proceeded to judgement) the said Lt. Col. Edm. Scarburgh petitioned for an appeal before the Governor & Council (according to the Act of Assembly). It is therefore thought fitt & ordered that an appeal be granted unto him for hearing and determination of the said cause before the Honorable the Govenor and Council at James Citty upon the sixth day of the next ____ court provided that Mr. Scarburgh put in sufficient security for damages (according to Act of Assembly) in case he be cast in the suit." On September 27, 1651, Edward Gibbons and William Brenton of Boston, merchant, received a bond from Edmund Scarborough for beaver and tobacco for 1000 pounds sterling. [SLR 1:195; "The Great Migration Begins," Vol. II, p. 751.]. Gibbons had been a partner of William Payne and on 30 October 1651 he assigned a bond to William Paine [SLR 1:291; "The Great Migration Begins," Vol. II, p. 751]. Gibbons was also a partner of Thomas Hawkins, who would appear to have been a kinsman of Timothy Hawkins (ca. 1612-1651) of Watertown, Mass., who had married by 1637, Anna Hammond, daughter of William Hammond and Elizabeth Paine, sister of the William Payne of Boston and Ipswich, named in connection with Col. Scarburgh of Virginia. [See "The Great Migration" entry for Timothy Hawkins]. Gibbons was sued by Scarburgh in August 1654 for an accounting of their joint ownership of the ship "Artillery" [see Whitelaw's "Virginia's Eastern Shore," Vol. I, p. 631- which also mentions the suit brought against Scarburgh by William Payne]. Thomas Hawkins, although he owned land in Dorchester, Mass., was a mariner & shipwright and spent much os his time away. He was also a London merchant according to Thomas Lechford [see Lechford's Notebook 1638-1641]. Hawkins was a partner of William Robinson, whom Lechford describes [p. 211] as "of Dorchester, is continually found in the records of that town, where he was a well-known citizen. He came over in 1636, and was admitted freeman 1642. Both Hawkins and Robinson were friends of Roger Ludlow who "went off to Virginia, 1654, "under a maledict." And Savage says "for carrying away the town rec., wh. was a charge long aft. refut. by find. the vol. in town." Roger Ludlow was a kinsman of Sarah Ludlow who married John Carter of Virginia. Sarah's father was Gabriel Ludlow of Dinton, Wiltshire, uncle of Roger Ludlow above [see "The Great Migration" entry for Roger Ludlow establishing his Wiltshire roots; for Sarah Ludlow, there are numerous resources. The one I had available was Clifford Dowdey's "The Virginia Dynasties"]. John Carter's 2nd wife had been Eleanor, sister of William Eltonhead (ca. 1616-1655) who married Jane, daughter of Dr. Thomas Gerrard- all of Northampton County, Va. and of St. Mary's County, Maryland. Dr. Gerrard, however, died in Westmoreland County before 1673. All of this is significant for Payne researchers because it clearly shows a connection between William Payne of Boston and Ipspwich, Mass. with the Paynes of Virginia and Maryland. From Northampton County, Orders, Deeds and Wills, 1651-1654, Book IV, p. 48: "Novo die December 1651 present ut antea; Whereas Major Obedience Robins hath commenced a suit agt. Mr. Wm. Eltonhead for nine hundred and nine pounds of tobacco with four years interest and charges. The said Eltonhead pretending that he could make it appear that the tobacco was all satisfied. It is ordered that the said Mr. Wm. Eltonhead shall immediately put in sufficient security (such as shall be answerable for the debt) to make his personal appearance upon the 20th of January next nine at Accomacke in court to make appearance that the said debt is already paid otherwise exrc. then to precede for the said debt. damages and court charges. The said Eltonhead then promising in court not to export or alienate his estate (now in this county) until the performance of this debt. p. 60: "Whereas Major Obedience Robins had this day made appearance to the court that ***Capt. [later Col.] Edm. Scarburgh was security for personal appearance of Mr. Wm. Eltonhead of Maryland*** to answer his suit upon an account of debt for the sum of nine hundred and nine pounds of tobacco with four years interest and charge in the suit (the said Mr. Eltonhead failing his appearance). Its therefore thought fit and ordered (according to order of the court entered the 9th of December last) where in is expressed that ***such security shall be taken of Mr. Eltonhead as shall be answerable for the debt that Capt. Edm. Scarburgh*** shall forth with make payment of the said debt with four years interest and court charge atr exrc. For as much as Major Obedience Robins hath this day procured order against Capt. Edm. Scarburgh (the security for Mr. Wm. Eltonhead of Maryland, for a debt of nine hundred and nine pounds of tobacco with four years interest and charge in the suit its therefore ordered that Capt. Edm. Scarburgh shall detain is his custody and possession so such goods (appertaining unto the said Mr. Wm. Eltonhead) as well be sufficient to make him satisfaction to the full value of the order this court passed against him at the suit of the said Major Robins with damages and charges atr exrc." The Eltonheads owned a slave by the name of Francis Payne:- p. 151: "Francis Payne [note he is not given as "Negro" here] after my love to thee and I cannot hear of any servants in York. They are all sold but if you do get your tobacco in cask, I question not but to get them, when I come down again, and likewise I will being [bring?] down some cask with me (if I can come soon enough) so I rest. Your loving master Wm. Eltonheade. From York 13th of December 1649. Recorded 4 die March 1653 per me Edm. Mathews clk cur." There are many more records pertaining to this Francis Payne, slave of William Eltonhead and his wife Jane. He was actually a slave of Jane Gerrard and subsequently to her children by a prior marriage:- "Northampton County, Virginia. Orders, Deeds & Wills 1651-1654, Book IV, p. 99: "These presents do testify that I Jane Eltonhead wife to Wm. Eltonhead gent. do covenant and agree to and with Francis Payne my negro servant (he being part of the estate belonging to my children) as followeth first that I the said Jane do resign all my right of this insueing crop that he is now a working in unto the said Francis warranting him to enjoy the same quietly for any trouble or molestation that nay or can arise from any person or persons. Likewise I do authorize him to use the best means lawful be and can for the further bettering of the said crop. In consideration whereof I the said Francis an[d] to pay to me the said Jane (the year following) fifteen hundred pounds of tobacco and six barrels of corn. At the end of this present crop and to have the power from time to time to make use of the ground and plantation until such time that I have freed myself of this judgment, witness our hands this 13th of May 1649." Signed Jane Eltonhead & Fran. Payne. Witness Wm. Pindley. Recorded Decimo die mensis December 1652 per me Edm. Mathews cur clk. "The condition of these presents is in manner following first that I Francis Payne negro am to pay to my mistress three sufficient men servants between the age of fifteen and twenty four and they shall serve for six years or seven at the least and that I Francis am to pay these servants the next crop after the date here of and that I Jane Eltonhead am to free the said Francis (on the present after the performance of these contents) but if the said Francis do not perform these presents, then it is void and of no effect 1649." Signed Francis Payne, Jane Eltonhead. Recorded date decimo die December 1652 per me Edm. Mathews cur clk. (page 119) "Received by me Wm. Eltonhead gent. of Francis Payne Negro the quantity of sixteen hundred and fifty pounds of tobacco and two servants (according unto the condition between him and his mistress) also a bill take in of his mistress which she passed unto Mr. Edward Drew for the maid servant I say received by me Wm. Eltonhead the second of April 1651." Signed William Eltonhead. Witness John Dolby. Recorded 10 die December 1652 per me Edm. Mathews cur clk. "Memoranda that I Wm. Eltonhead do acknowledged to have taken bill of Mr. Peter Walker merchant for two men servants which is for the use of Francis Payne Negro towards his freedom as witness my hand the 2nd day of March 1649." Signed Wm. Eltonhead. Witness Derrick Derrickson. Recorded 10th die December 1652 per me Edm. Mathews cur clk." Now, these Eltonheads were the aunts and uncles of Eltonhead Conway (daugther of Edwin Conway and Martha Eltonhead) who married about 1662 Henry Thacker (d. 1674) and their son, Henry (1663-1710) married Elizabeth Payne, granddaughter of the immigrant John Payne (d. 1689/90). Elizabeth was a niece of William Payne (ca. 1652-1697/8), who had appointed Richard Lee II and his wife, Lettice Corbin, as the guardians of his children:- "Crozier, p. 8: "Paine, William, of Cople, gent., 31 Jan. 1697-8; 23 Feb. 1697. Eldest son William when 16 years; son Edward 700 acres in Stafford; my eldest daughter Anne by a former venture, my dau. Betty; my dau. Mary; dau. Anne and son William exors.; my said dau. Anne to go after me decease to Col. Lee's house; my loving wife." Brooke Payne expands on this by including: -"Will written 31 Jan. 1697/8, names his loving friend Richard Lee of Lower Machotique as guardian of his children. He instructed his daughter Anne to go immediately to Col. Lee's house." Richard Lee II's father, Richard Lee I, had been continously associated with Florentine Payne, an early burgess of Elizabeth City and mariner. [see Clifford Dowdey's "The Virginia Dynasties" as well as "Cavaliers and Pioneers," Vol. I naming Florentine in records of Richard Lee.]. Recall that William Payne of Boston and Ipswich, Mass. had made William Kendall his attorney to collect the debt from Col. Scarburgh. Hancock Lee, the brother of William Payne's (d. 1697/8) "loving friend" Richard Lee II, had married Mary Kendall, daughter of William Kendall. I don't know how much clearer the records have to be to indicate a connection here between the Massachusetts and Virginia branches. For the life of me, I don't understand why we, as Payne researchers, have not latched on to this and begun a serious investigation and called into question past statements that there had been no relation between them. There is no room for coincidence here as it comes about from so many different directions- all pointing to the same conclusion. The snag here, as some may have gleaned from our DNA results chart, is that the DNA signature from descendants of Thomas Payne and Mary Snow of Eastham, Mass. [Thomas suspected of being a cousin of William Payne of Boston], do not seem to fit any of the other participants DNA results which would indicate a relationship. However, I feel that before we can rule it out, we should attempt to include other known descendants of William Payne of Boston. Daniel Payne which had married Col. Scarburgh's granddaughter Hannah, is believed to have been an ancestor of the Paynes of Worcester County, Maryland. Here too, I have found several links back to the descendants of the immigrant John Payne through their mutual kinsmen the Sturmans and Popes (as well as several others). It would take me a considerable amount of time to list all of these connections between these branches and I have been working on doing just that. I just can't possibly post it all to mailing lists. I currently have over 700 pages (unedited) of these connections between the Colonial families alone. Another volume of equal size showing the same type of connections among the branches of the Payne family in England (prior to the immigration by some of them between 1635 and 1650). There are NO OTHER examples of this occurring in any genealogy that I am aware of other than those with proven relations between their branches- and those families had ties with the Paynes- such as the Lee's, the Washington's (whose ancestry takes them back to Suffolk, England, with John Washington, who had married a sister of Sir Thomas Kytson- whose bailiff of Hengrave had been Henry Payne, an ancestor of William Payne of Boston/Ipswich.), and other dynastic families with similar pedigree's reaching back into England's past long before the colonization period began. Now we have DNA evidence to support ties between some of our Maryland and Virginia branches, and I believe that with continued testing to include more members of our various early Payne branches in America, we will discover even more. We've missed the boat by allowing ourselves to rely to heavily on blanket statements made by past researchers who claimed no relationship existed between branches, although our only published genealogies are direct line in nature and written between 70 and 120 years ago! By their very nature it is evident that there was no real research into the question for such statements to be made. The ONLY basis for the claims of no relationships between branches is the lack of records to establish it. But I ask, how many of us name our uncles and cousins in our wills or deeds today? I'd venture a guess and say not many of us do. If we take that element away, we are left with really only one source that would establish these relationships, and that is birth records. How many of us have been to England to search for them? In our known English lines, how many sons and daughters have been completely overlooked? Here is one example- In 1935, Col. Brooke Payne had correspondence with the College of Arms in London in an effort to establish family traditions claiming that the immigrant John Payne of Virginia had been a son of Sir Robert Payne of Huntingdonshire. They concluded that Sir Robert had only three sons, none with the name of John Payne. Nor, they said, did Sir Robert have any immediate kinsmen with the name John. As a result, we all but abandoned the old family traditions and have pretty much left it at that. Though no fault is given to the College of Arms as they simply based their statement on records submitted to them in 1613 by Sir Robert, it has since been discovered that Sir Robert had two additional sons AFTER 1613 (though their names are not known). This information can be found on Sir Robert's tomb in Huntingdonshire which names 5 sons (and two additional daughters previously unknown to us as well). It has also been discovered through primary records that Sir Robert did in fact have a brother by the name of John Payne who had been Rector of Southoe, Hunts. in 1603, whose daughter, Anne Payne, was the wife of William Leete, later Governor of Hartford, Ct. No NEW genealogy has been undertaken between the publication of "Paine Genealogy- Ipswich Branch" or "Paine Family Records" in 1881, and "The Paynes of Virginia" in 1935. We have not advanced much beyond what is contained in them. They are of great value, and well-done, but we've generally come to accept everything in them as gospel and refused to consider alternatives. We regurgitate and perpetuate the good, as well as the bad contained in them. Then the Internet, with all of its benefits, has now come to replace real "research." Instead of spending time in Records Offices, University Libraries, Courthouses, etc., many of us are more prone to copy research found on the web and call that research (with the added downside that the resources are often not cited, and when they are, the information is conveniently cut and pasted into web pages or mailing list posts, giving no credit to the individual responsible for the research or transcription work. Which, I am sure, has caused many researchers to refrain from sharing information altogether). In the past, I have made efforts to bring some of these clues to the attention of other researchers in the hopes that we might consolidate our research efforts to gain ground on many of the questions and problems we face. But these efforts have been piece mealed. It doesn't do just to the big picture to approach it in that way. This post, for example, shows some of the connections, but based on this one example alone, one might conclude that it is nothing more than coincidental or circumstanstial to the fact that as merchants or business men that it is inevitable that families would come into contact with one another. I agree with that to some extent, but would ask to see examples of it in other genealogies. When all of the evidence is brought to bear in our case, it becomes much to large to attribute to chance. See also http://papayne.rootsweb.com/Ralph-Payne and http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203/poa to bring more of this puzzle together. Purists still want proof in the form of primary records explicitely confirming the connections. I believe these records do exist- but they will not be found in America. Our answers lie on dusty shelves in England- and not necessarily where we'd expect them to be as many of these families had interests in several counties, not just the traditional family seat we've come to know. Our DNA project has already proven its value for some of us. I, for one, can say it was the best $150.00 for research that I've ever spent. It has opened new doors and will continue to do so as long as we have willing participants seeking answers to their own genealogy mysteries. DNA research will never fully replace traditional genealogical research, but it can be (and has shown) its worth in that it provides scientific support to the genealogical record evidence by establishing relatedness- even if it might leave us with the holes to fill. Regards, Patrick Payne ppayne1203@earthlink.net