At 10:57 AM 08/30/1999 -0400, Patrick Payne wrote: > >For some, this will be a welcome post and one long overdue... > >This will be my last post to this list. It seems there are those out there >that are hell bent on twisting my words and discrediting my research >efforts- without once referring to the records. These people have NEVER >visited my web site to review the records available there (one reason that >I required registration in the first place), base their attacks solely on >my posts to the list (- after mixing my words around to suit their >purpose), . . . . . . . .snip. . . . . . Patrick, I do hope you will reconsider your decision, as many of us do appreciate your research. I, for one, am very gratefull for your research as you have provided me the ancestors of Dorcas PAYNE, dau of Isaiah PAYNE and Ann WILLIAMS, who married James MACHEN. This is one of my lines that I had not yet allocated time to research. But when I do get the time, you have given me the background references to go to search for the proof. [I intend to fill you in on the descendants of this marriage within the next few weeks.] I am a retired research chemist, and am familar with the techniques of literature research, and for folks to reject and criticize your work is either just plain ignorance of research techniques or just plain bull headed arrogance. [I do remember that there were all kinds of hell raising over your use of a username and password.] On a list as large as this one, there are always a few who will accuse anyone of most anything, just because they want and expect to see every little thing printed in black and white with all the "i's" dotted and the "t's" crossed. They are intolerant of "hyphotheses" and "theories" because they want only "FACTS" (or "LAWS"). You are working on your hyphotheses and by gathering information have formulated a theory about the Payne families. Ultimately you hope to gather enough information to prove your theory or discount it. This is the scientific method which applies to any kind of research, whether it is chemistry, physics, history or genealogy. People who are critical of your research remind one of the folks who said Columbus was going to sail off the edge of the earth into space because the earth "is flat". I do hope you will stick with us and don't give up the ship. You have made progress and I believe the majority of us are interested in your findings and wish you luck in your quest. Whether you are right, or wrong, in your theory, you will have gained a greater understanding of history and the Payne family, and will be a better person from your experience. The objective of research is to gain knowledge, and those who reject this objective are really not interested in genealogy. Unfortunately, some are only interested in "a real long list of names" and care less about the people and their contributions to society, family, etc. Wishing you the best, and whether you stay or go, I'll keep in touch, Bill McMahon List Manager: BROWDER & McMAHON Lists. McMAHON List Welcomes ALL Spelling Variants of McMAHON,McMAHAN,McMAHEN,MAHON,MAHAN Your Support Keeps RootsWeb FREE TO All!! http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html

Hello, I am searching for J.G. Payne also known as James G. Payne had 8 children in Bell Co. TX Born around 1824 in Tenn. or Missouri. Died in 1897 of MArch in Bell County Texas. His wife's name Mary M, of LA. found them in the 1880 census but last name spelled wrong, (PANE) Anyone out there, can you help me. I am stuck. Thank you Sherry Davis-Ellis

While I have not been on this list too long, I can tell you that I have lines that want to argue and alienate over the spelling of a name, much less hanky panky between cousins etc. If I had let this get to me I would have quit searching for my "families" about as soon as I got started. If you leave now, you will only leave a void for researchers looking only for the truth, that void being filled by those that mutually, we can all do without. Best of Wishes With Your Decision Wesley Gann Patrick Payne wrote: > For some, this will be a welcome post and one long overdue... > > This will be my last post to this list. It seems there are those out there > that are hell bent on twisting my words and discrediting my research > efforts- without once referring to the records. These people have NEVER > visited my web site to review the records available there (one reason that > I required registration in the first place), base their attacks solely on > my posts to the list (- after mixing my words around to suit their > purpose), have made NO EFFORT to study the records of the over one dozen > ACTIVE PAYNE mariners of the 17th century (that nobody ever seems to > discuss or even mention), refuse to believe there is ANY possibility of a > relationship between branches- although there is tons of evidence within > *these* records that strongly suggest otherwise. Regardless of what anyone > believes about these families or what the truth will ultimately turn out to > be- these records deserve our study as all published sources are silent on > them. We have glaring holes in our research if we don't include them. > Moreover, I have raised numerous questions that deserve some answers. We > are "missing the boat" if we don't account for them or consider the > importance of the facts that they owned and captained ships (THE SAME > SHIPS!) throughout the 17th century, regularly intermarried and associated > with families of the same surnames (- no matter where we find them and over > a period of decades, not just a couple of records- mounds of them), were > involved in such large enterprises as iron works (not just in New England > either) which was a very significant concern in those days, intermarried > and associated with some of the most notable clergymen of the day, or a > host of other important considerations that is NEVER brought to the > forefront of our research. I simply tried to address those issues that we > otherwise never hear about. > > There are OTHER WAYS to prove relationships apart from a record that says > Joe was the son of John DOE! A record like that might be ideal, but in the > early 17th century, we may never have that luxury and we therefore must > make the best use of ALL THE DATA we have available to us. Yes- that means > that we will sometimes have to wade through some dung to find the gold. > Those that refuse to do so and wait on the magic record to appear, in my > opinion, are the ones responsible for both limiting progress and alienating > some fine researchers from contributing their finds. In short, if you are > going to criticize someone, at least have the consideration to have given > their ideas serious thought and study. If you haven't even LOOKED at it- > what right do you have? It's as if these people believe that solely because > I have found the same names occurring in records that I have somehow > determined that there is a relationship between them! This only goes to > show that they have not been paying attention :-} > > I will be leaving my web site on-line but I do not know if I will continue > trying to make updates to it. Haven't decided yet... The mailing lists will > also remain active, although I will probably seek a new owner for them. I > hate to do this to the many kind folks I have met over the years who have > given me their support. Unfortunately, for every 100 letters of support I > get, the few I get from these others ruins any satisfaction I would get > from my effort. It makes it all seem pointless and has made me think about > who I am doing this for anyway? The answer is for myself and my family. > > I don't think some people realize the time, effort, and money that I have > sunk into this project. Over nearly three years, I have pursued this > "hobby" virtually full-time. I don't mean 8 hours per day either. Every > waking and free moment has been spent on it. I left my job (as an > administrator with a high-tech company) in order to pursue this research > unhindered by any other responsibilities. Since that time, I have spent > roughly 18 hours per day and literally thousands of dollars in savings for > travel costs, books, memberships, and professional assistance. I did not > do this on a whim. I did it because I was convinced by *these* records > (combined with known facts) that I was on to something *and* I still > believe that! Over the past several months, many others have come to feel > this way too as every week it seems I would receive some information that > coincides perfectly with the story I have been putting together. They, too, > are becoming excited about the new doors that have opened for them. This > support has come from not only PAYNE researchers, but Allied families as > well. I have received encouragement from noted historians, such as > Professor Bailyn (please read "The New England Merchants of the 17th > Century") and others. I suppose I'm being rather "thin-skinned" in the long > run, but it's just not worth it anymore. At a time when the research has > been yielding some of its best results too! > > I would like to think that I am an intelligent person with an above > average ability in abstract reasoning, problem-solving, etc. My IQ, as last > tested by the military, was 128. I passed the air-traffic controllers exam > with a score of 97 (102 if I include my veterans preference points). If > anyone has ever picked up a study guide for that exam in a bookstore, you > know that this was no easy accomplishment! You may wonder, "what does THAT > have to do with genealogy research?" Much more than you would think, > believe me! One of the prime reasons of the test is to determine the > ability to recognize patterns and recurring events. I don't include this as > some form of self-praise. Just to show I'm no idiot, as some would > apparently label me. > > Lastly, I want to say how unfortunate it is that I am not alone in my > feelings. I have met several researchers who simply have given up for the > same reasons- a few bad apples who do not realize the insult they give. > Maybe I am guilty of it too. I understand that many of you have been > researching for years and years- possibly even longer than I've been alive! > But that is NO EXCUSE for some of the letters I have received. Just because > you may have spent the last 100 years researching, it does not mean that > there is no room for alternate ways of thinking. Nor does it give you > license to become the PAYNE POLICE and attack others. If you disagree with > the research of others, point out SPECIFIC items. But DO NOT just attack > every aspect of their effort! > > Good Luck to you "thicker-skinned" folks out there. I'm not admitting > defeat- just moving on to avoid people like these- who uncannily seem to > all be on this list! But- there I go using my brain again to draw > conclusions based on observation and record ;-} The very thing that caused > this mess to begin with! Those of you who would like to keep in touch with > me will know how to reach me and I look forward to hearing from you. It's > just time to become a little less public for fear of being trounced. Walls > may come down here and there, but this is the biggest one we face. Until it > comes down, no significant advances will be made on answering many of the > questions. Everyone is to afraid to ask them or suggest solutions for them- > because they are not based on the same old outdated accounts of the 1930's > that we have grown accustomed to. While those accounts have their place, > they are but foundations to build on at this point. Just like the > historians accounts of Colonial America, these, too, have limited > themselves to particular areas of settlement- Virginia, Massachusetts, > Maine, Connecticut, etc... There is a bigger picture out there folks! > > I hope we all come to realize that one day. Buck the norm. Be original and > consider everything- no matter how outlandish you may think it is. It may > be the key you need. > > A last contribution on a happy note- although no PAYNE's are mentioned in > the following, it does have its place in PAYNE research for those that will > look for it. It was posted to the LONDON-COMPANYS-L list today: > > "The Story of the Pilgrim Fathers, > 1606-1623 A.D." by Edward Arber > Chapter "The two Virginia Companies" > Page 254 > "The Rev. Doctor E.D. Neill adds, "He was hired by Daniel Gookin, owner > of the Providence, to take that ship to Virginia which arrived April > 10th, 1623.[see S.P. Colonial, Vol.II, 10 April 1623]." > This reference refers to John Clarke, hired by Gookin. John had taken > cattle from Ireland to Virginia in 1619. > > On this site,http://www.ida.net/users/dhanco/names.htm#names1, I found > the following: > 1644 > Daniel Gookin (1612-1687), son of an early Irish settler in Virginia, > moves to Massachusetts and eventually becomes a member of the > Governor's > Council, major general of the militia, and superintendent of Indian > affairs. > Are we talking about the same family here??? > > At this site: > > http://www.historichamptonroads.com/Documents/Definitions/Definitions.htm > > Marie's Mount: Pronounced "Mary’s". Located in current day downtown > Newport News. Marie's Mount was named after the wife of the first known > settler in Newport News, Daniel Gookin, Sr. > > Here: > > http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dave_rigney/history/history.htm > >From Adventures of Purse and Person > > William Cole (William) bought, 1671, the "Bolthrupe" plantation of 1350 > acres lying on the Warwick River between "Denbigh," the > Mathews plantation, and "Windmill Point," the seat of the Carys. In > addition, on 20 April 1685 Cole acquired 1433 acres laying > largely in Warwick County but partly in Elizabeth City, "commonly called > Newport News according to the most ancient and lawful > bounds." This was the major portion of a grant to the heirs of Daniel > Gookin, who had settled at Newport News, March 1621/22. > It extended along the James River from its mouth approximately four > miles. > And here: > > http://www.heritagebooks.com/neweng.htm > > The Register, Vol. 4, 1850 - Genealogies: Bradford; Davenport; Gilbert; > Gookin; Leverett; Otis; Wentworth; Winslow; Wright. > Records: physicians of Ipswich MA; Saybrook CT vr; list of Freemen; > Dover NH town records; Plymouth Co MA wills; Suffolk > Co MA wills; Boston area vr; Weymouth MA vr; passengers for VA; Wrentham > MA vr; marr & deaths from news.; Dorchester > MA inscr; Marshfield MA inscr; Gloucester MA vr; Reprint, 388 pp., > index. paper, $31.00 #ZNR04 > > One of Daniel's men: > > http://www.esva.net/ghotes/saxis/d2/i0012015.htm > Henry immigrated to 1623.(10339) Henry was living after 1632/3 in > Accawmack Co, VA.(10340) Henry's will was probated 26 Nov > 1635 in Accawmack Co, VA.(10341) Henry Carsley came to Virginia in 1623 > in the "Providence" and at the age of 23 years when > the muster was taken in Feb 1624/5, was living at Newport News, VA, as > one of Daniel Gookin's men. Henry was a headright > named in Daniel Gookin's patent for 2500 acres in Upper Norfolk Co, 29 > > Dec 1637, pursuant to order of court, 25 Feb 1634/5. The > shipping and cattle breeding enterprise projected by Gookin did not > prosper and Henry Carsley migrated to the Eastern Shore > where many settlers began to take up land after the 1621/2 massacre. On > 19 Feb 1633/4 Carsley petitioned the court held at"Accawmack" for a > lease of 50 acres upon Old Plantation Creek (in present day Northampton > Co) on the south side of Fishing Creek. > > At least this begins to give you a picture of where the grant was and > confirms the cattle tie to the Gookins. I believe you will find Daniel, > the owner of the Providence to be the father of the Daniel who came to > Virginia (born 1612) and then to Massachusetts. The patent in 1620 would > have been to the father. One of the Masters of the Providence was a > Richmond. > > Gail > > ______________________________X-Message: #5 > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:41:33 -0400 > From: Gail Howard <dardena@mix-net.net> > To: LONDON-COMPANYS-L@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <37CB32CD.F7AFE8BE@mix-net.net> > Subject: Re: GOOKIN reply > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Today I have found Daniel Gookin's name spelled Coohin and Cookin so be > aware that the G looks like a C in handwriting and the k like an h. > Below is from the Virginia Library Colonial Records Project: > > SR05860 > Reel #856 page 5 > > 6, f.375vo 25 Aug 1624 > > "John Driver of Bristol, shipwright, aged 38, deposed that he built > the ship Mary Providence of Cork near Bristol about 2 1/2 years before, > and that it was sold to Daniel Coohin of Galway and Jenkins, and fitted > out for a voyage to Virginia, and he knew that the cost of fitting her > out was L400 and upwards." > > So we have learned Daniel Gookin was the owner of at least two ships, > the Providence and the Mary Providence. That they likely sailed out of > Cork, Ireland with cattle for Virginia and Daniel was "of Galway and > Jenkins". > He apparently had his ships built at Bristol (at least one was) and from > the list at the Colonial Records Project, the Providence made many > trips. > Considering the cost of outfitting a ship for upwards of L400, Daniel > apparently was not poor. > > In Richmond Family Records (I found the connection, Dick!) > Page 146 > Jan. 9, 1623/4 > Capt. Richard[Richmond alias Sheppard] with his brother or son Lt. John > is last heard of in command of a privateer, the Mary Providence, in Va. > > In Bennett's History of Bandon, p243. > Daniel Gookin, gent., who owned part of the cargo of this ship [Mary > Providence] and who founded a colony in Va. was related to the Gookins > of Ireland. > > These are people from Bandon in County Cork, Ireland. You may find the > family vital statistics there. > Good Luck! > > Gail

> Patrick, My grandmother always said, when I was particularly upset, "If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it." I have learned so much from your posts and look forward to them. Don't let those Payne's in the neck get the better of you. Every Payne in my family has a wonderful quality, we are all stubborn! So get your Payne up and hit that delete button! Cherie R. Olson

Hi My name is Jessie Payne Day I've have been reading your e'mail messages with great interest, but I have come to the conclusion that you must not be from my Payne family. If anybody said anything derogatory to any of us, we immediately bristled and went after them - how dare they say that. Maybe you got that soft heart from your Mothers side. And believe me that's good to be sensitive - however, don't let some boor out there that don't even like themself or anybody else that's doing something good for other people stop you. Get your dander up and know there are lots of us out here that say thank you. I'm 65 years old and don't fully understand this computer and not even sure I have your right address, but I trust in God that you will receive this. God Bless you and Please don't give up Jessie Payne Day

Hello, I want to thank you for replying to me about Henry Paine. I found it all very very interesting and helpful. sorry I didn't get back right away. I am just swamped with mail and every now and then I accidently hit the "mark all as read" key and then really get behind. Anyone know how to "undo" the "mark all as read" key? Thanks Pat for being so quick to share. diane

Dear Patrick- I was just talking with another Payne researcher today about your family research, and then I read your post, and was very disappointed. I know when someone says something mean to me it takes a long time to get over it. But I certainly wish you would get over it, and learn to use your delete button more quickly. Don't let the bad guys win! Brenda. Brenda Darlene Gaines- Monroe Swamp Creek Garden -Oregon http://www.pioneer.net/~brendad/ Mom's side - Smith, Payne, Ward, Rowland, Killcreece, McDaniel, Lamb Dad's side - Gaines, Malcome, Holderby, Lewis, Harvey. Felix

I am new to this website and need help trying to locate any Payne's that lived in the Delaplane, Purcellville, Hamilton area of Virginia. My grandfather was Ewell Jennings Payne born around 1887. His mother was Susan Elizabeth Payne (also her maiden name). There is no one left to talk too about this everyone has passed away. Ewell Payne (my grandfather) is buried in Union Cemetery, Leesburg VA. If anyone has a link to this line let me know. Thanks Ann (payne) Higbee

Patrick; I have enjoyed your posts greatly , the ones that attack you if they would spend the time in research as you do they would not have time to put you down. PS. don't throw in the towel put it where it blongs ,stuff it in where it will stop the sound. Lew

Cousins, I just joined this list about a week ago. The first mail I got was sent privately instead of the list. The quote was, "there are a lot of people there who have to be right ( whether they are not.) The arguing and insults got old." Now we have this dialogue going on about throwing in the towel! What is the matter with you people. Is this part of the Payne personality? People on other list that I belong to don't act this way. I though it was all about helping one another to gather as much information as possible then prove or disprove the information together as a team. I am amazed! Barbara Bryant Clearwater FL and Wakefield, PQ

Patrick, I for one have been enjoying your info that keeps coming in on the list. Please don't stop. Just ignore the stiffs. If you quit, let me know where I can find your info. I am having trouble getting info from your site. Don't you have a Rootsweb list? I have lost it. Please dont give up. David ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Patrick, Yes, I am another who appreciates your postings. And finally I might even have done enough family history to be able to connect my Paynes to those back in the early 1700s and 1600s. I appreciate all the clues I can get about my family history. Regards, Diann Payne

Just had to share our excitement of finding our PAYNE FAMILIES!!!!! Janet & The PaynePack ----- Original Message ----- From: janet payne <successwoods@thegrid.net> To: Kay Anderson <yak2usal@frontiernet.net> Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 8:30 PM Subject: Hey there Cuz!!! > Well now its For Sure!!!! There are FOUR descendents online right now on > the PayneList ...ALL from the same couple!!!!!! What are the odds of that > happening????!!!!!!!! ISAAC(#5) PAYNE,born ca. 1755, & MARY(unk)= KAY from > JOHN PAYNE....Larry(& me (-:)=AQUILLA PAYNE......WENDELL & VEGA=MOSES > PAYNE.....VIVIAN=ISAAC PAYNE !!!!!! What are the odds of FOUR Payne > Brothers Families finding eachother online in such a short time & all on > the same list??!!! WOW!!! This is so cool! We need to have a Family > ReUnion, Cyber-Style!!! Yer Cuz, Janet & Larry Payne >

With MJD, the affected person has symptoms that mimic "essential tremors" but, unlike Parkinson's, there is no dementia. The person remains as sharp as a tack into their twilight years. Like Parkinson's however, affected people sometimes have slurred speech. My uncle slurs like the Devil at times, but he is as sharp today as he was at 35. This is why I believe that he has been misdiagnosed. I am beginning to believe that he and those of my family in generations before him in fact had MJD. My great-grandma Nancy E. Monday Payne claimed to be Black Dutch, but Native Americans who have looked at her photos have asked me what tribe she belonged to! Its unmistakable. If you put a pair of braids on her, she could pass as Sitting Bull's twin sister! I am beginning to believe that she was in fact Melungeon, which would explain the tremors so prevalent within my family. Regards, Barb McCreary Visit my website at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hollow/9401/ ----- Original Message ----- From: <DRowe85608@aol.com> To: <stnpride@linkline.com>; <PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, August 28, 1999 10:32 AM Subject: Re: THE FAMILY OF JOHN AND FRANCES COLEMAN PAINE > That's interesting because my father had "the shakes", his mother being the > one I suspect to be of Melungeon descent. I, too, have an occasional tremor > if I am holding something with a little weight (like a cup of coffee) at an > odd angle. I had always presumed what my dad had was something called > "essential tremor" which is what Kathryn Hepburn has. She insists she does > not have Parkinsons which the media has presumed she has. My grandmother who > descends from John and Frances Payne died at 94 but had no tremors. My other > grandmother always said she was Black Dutch. > > DJ > >

Looking for James G. Payne born 1824 in Tenn his father was from VA. James moved to Texas ans married Carrie M. Somebody HElp. Sherry Davis-Ellis PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Subject: > > PAYNE-D Digest Volume 99 : Issue 185 > > Today's Topics: > #1 Payne's in OR [Mikki95210@aol.com] > #2 Re: [Re: PAYNE UNknowns/BrickWalls [Joe Payne <smokymtnmanjoe@netscape] > #3 Re: [PAYNE BRICKWALL KNOCKED DOWN! [Joe Payne <smokymtnmanjoe@netscape] > #4 Re: THE FAMILY OF JOHN AND FRANCES [DRowe85608@aol.com] > #5 Re: PAYNE-D Digest V99 #183 [BENTFOTO@aol.com] > #6 PAYNE Unknowns/Brickwalls ["Diann Payne" <diann@f1.net.au>] > #7 Malockie Paine/Henry Paine ["diane k" <skunk@coastalnet.com>] > #8 Re: PAYNE Unknowns/Brickwalls ["gencon" <gencon@harborside.com>] > > Administrivia: > To unsubscribe from PAYNE-D, send a message to > > PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com > > that contains in the body of the message the command > > unsubscribe > > and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software > requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Payne's in OR > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:22:37 EDT > From: Mikki95210@aol.com > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > The "brick wall" struck a chord with me. In the process of trying to trace > my family, I've been thinking about doing a single surname study of Payne's > in OR before 1900. I don't know if it's just me, or if it's really true that > most people run into roadblocks when their family members moved far away. I > would like some input on this idea. In starting my search (yes I am new at > this), I have found connections with other Payne families (unk whether they > are related) that help me locate my Payne's. I'm hoping that a study will > help others as well. Some of what I have so far: > > Uriah Payne, b IL 1815, m Matilda Farnsworth, b IL 1824, in Winnebago Co, IL > His parents were from NY and Penn (possibly Tenn) > Children: Andrew Payne, b 1843 WI > Henry Payne, b 1847 WI > Thomas Jefferson Payne, b 1850 WI or PA > Matilda d 1853 and there is no evidence that Uriah remarried. He and the > boys were in MN in the 1860 census (Blue Earth Co, Mapleton twp). They were > in OR by 1870. In the 1870 OR census, Andrew and Henry were in Clackamas Co, > OR and Thomas was in Yamhill Co - staying with a Malinda Payne, dtr-in-law of > Aaron Payne. > Trying to find out if Aaron is part of my family. Here's some of what I > have on Aaron so far: > Aaron Payne b 1789 PA where his father had a large land holding. Aaron > fought in the was of 1812 and in the Blackhawk War in IL after his brother > was killed (don't have names of rest of family). He married unk Murphy and > had 13 children (unamed except for one - Caleb J Payne, b 1821 IL). 11 of > them survived to maturity. They had a farm in Sangamon Co in IL. Mrs. Payne > died in 1846, and Aaron went to OR the following year with his children. The > following children were listed in his estate records: > Caleb J Payne > John Payne > Jeremiah Payne > William Payne > Louisa Payne > Minerva Payne > Margarette (?) Payne > > Any additional info would be very helpful in helping me to determine whether > there is a family connection between Uriah and Aaron. > I know, it's long. Is it useful to others as well? > CiCi Morse in CA > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [Re: PAYNE UNknowns/BrickWalls/BottleNecks/Etc] > Date: 29 Aug 99 14:36:29 PDT > From: Joe Payne <smokymtnmanjoe@netscape.net> > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > Diann, > That was my page but I removed it and put another series of pages up in it's > place so anyone accessing my page should hit this link: > > http://homepages.msn.com/YosemiteDr/smokymtnman/payne/pafg08.htm#11 > > If you have a problem with the lineage please be advised that this is purely > speculitive research and as a disclaimer has been posted on my main page. > Would you object if I add your email to the page that connects you Payne's to > this line so that anyone hitting the page could email you? > Joe Payne > Knoxville, TN > Hawkins County, Tennesee, on this page: > http://bsd.pastracks.com/~ehayden/payne/ but there is something confusing > have changed his email because my message came back. > > Diann Payne > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [PAYNE BRICKWALL KNOCKED DOWN!!!!] > Date: 29 Aug 99 14:51:49 PDT > From: Joe Payne <smokymtnmanjoe@netscape.net> > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > Janet, > Thank you for your comments. I warn you though that a lot of what I have > online is purely specultive but some is years of work of research from > outstanding geneologists. I have reconstructed the Isaac PAYNE website with > the new PAF 4.0 Software. It is now located at: > > http://homepages.msn.com/YosemiteDr/smokymtnman/payne/index.htm > > And unless I am wrong we are distant kissin cousins and you should be directly > related to Patrick Payne. > Take a look at what I have and I would love to add your family info so that > many many others could contact you should the stumble across it. > Joe Payne > Knoxville, TN > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: THE FAMILY OF JOHN AND FRANCES COLEMAN PAINE (2nd VERSION) > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 19:16:48 EDT > From: DRowe85608@aol.com > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > Can you give us any background on Barnett's wife, listed as Nancy in one > compilation and Elizabeth in the second? DJ > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: PAYNE-D Digest V99 #183 > Date: Sun, 29 Aug 1999 21:53:41 EDT > From: BENTFOTO@aol.com > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > In a message dated 8/28/99 1:36:08 AM Central Daylight Time, > PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > << Can someone tell me how to open a MIME File after I have successfully > downloaded it. >> > > if the file is not too large, aol will open it for you if you have the latest > version. just go to the top of your aol program to FILE and then to OPEN and > then select the file you downloaded. in the box that appears ask it to show > all files in order to identfy yours. it will show you the text of the mime > file in a readable form unless the file is too large. i have found for > example that some of the payne digests come with mime files attached and aol > will let me read some and not others due to their size. for the larger files > you just need a decoding program. you can go to the aol software section and > download vuepro which will decode mime and many other odd types; at least i > know vuepro does this for graphics files. there should be software there in > the aol section that would do the same for text files if the vuepro does not > do so. > hope this helps. > rlpayne > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: PAYNE Unknowns/Brickwalls > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 03:16:44 +1000 > From: "Diann Payne" <diann@f1.net.au> > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > Thank you so much for contacting the Payne list and putting the upgraded > web page address on the list. You may have already done that before I > joined the list. Put my email address on there by all means. > > When I first came across your information, it was such a breakthrough for > me, because I had been looking for the father of my George Washington Payne > for years. I am still confused by the information about Lindsey Payne's > father, Archibald Payne Sr. (Nehemiah, Isaac). It looks like he was a > father at the age of 3 and that is not possible. What am I missing or > misreading? > > Lindsey's grandson, Joseph Payne (son of George Washington Payne) had > another son before Ira. Robert Leaton Payne, my great grandfather, was > Joseph's oldest son, born 27 Dec. 1877. I thought Joseph Payne and Milley > Hopper were married before 1880 but I don't know for certain. Are you still > adding info to this Payne line? Do you want more info? > > Diann Payne > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Malockie Paine/Henry Paine > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 04:33:58 -0400 > From: "diane k" <skunk@coastalnet.com> > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > Does anyone know anything about Malockie Paine mentioned in this article? > http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/lit/molung.html > > The Wild Shores, "Americas Beginnings", By Tee Loftin Snell, 1974, a > National Geographic book, shows similar information as above, with some > additional information and, of course, wonderful color pictures, as all > N.G.S. books do. In this article, the group of colonist with White were said > to number 117 settlers. This is the group left there by mistake. > > When they landed, they did find the bones of one man, wrote John White. He > later learned from Manteo's people, whom he visited at Croatan Sandbar, > present day Hatteras, that 13 men rowed their boats away from Roanoke during > an Indian attack. Perhaps they still lived, lost in the wilderness. Manteo, > was the chief of the tribe already living on Roanoke. He was taken to live > in England for a year and it looks as if he returned when the White colony > was brought over. White stayed on the island and visited Manteo's people for > one month when he returned to find everyone gone. He made numerous water > colors of the local people, flora and fauna. These drawings are on display > at the British Museum in London today. Roanoke has a festival each summer > with a play of the story presented. This article says the Lumbee Indians in > present Robeson County , North Carolina "have a strong tradition that the > Roanoke colony amalgamated with them," as historian Samuel Eliot Morison > says in "The European Discovery of America". Some blue- eyed, fair-haired > types, Elizabethan words, and surnames all "bear this out, " he adds. The > Lumbees, he notes, earlier known as Croatan or Hatteras Indians, migrated > inland about 1650. > > About 1660, Rev. Morgan Jones wandered into their midst and to his surprise > "conversed in English" with them. But did all the Hatteras clans go inland? > About 1700 John Lawson, exploring North Carolina's coast, wrote that > "gray-eyed" Hatteras Indians said "several of their ancestors were white > people, and could talk in a book." (this was the early Cherokee term for > reading...vjj) The article continues. And I heard these intriguing remarks > from Sheriff Frank Calhoun , 67, at Manteo on Roanoke Island: "My > grandfather, born in 1830, told me that in his Indian village he lived in > one of several very old two-story houses of hand hewn timbers and boards on > the mainland across from Roanoke. His blond, blue-eyed mother, Malockie > Paine, we believe, was descended from colonist Henry Paine." > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: PAYNE Unknowns/Brickwalls > Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 05:43:24 -0700 > From: "gencon" <gencon@harborside.com> > To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com > > > > looking for the father of my George Washington Payne > > for years > > Diann, where was your George Washington PAYNE from? What year? > I have a gr grandfather George Washington PAYNE..and can't find his > parents.. > > My GWP was born 4 May 1854 in Indiana... he md Rosa Burnett.. they had 3 > ch.. Nettie, Lester & Theresa.. Lester died from burns he rec'd from falling > into the fireplace while the mother was down the hill getting water.. she > left 3 year old Nettie to watch him... he was in his high chair...don't know > what happened..but the high chair and Lester fell into the fire place.. > probably little Nettie climbed up on the high chair, or Lester tried to > stand up in it.. > > Thanks, > Wilma Fleming Haynes > gencon@harborside.com

At 04:33 AM 8/30/99 -0400, diane k wrote: >Does anyone know anything about Malockie Paine mentioned in this article? >http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/lit/molung.html I would like to point out that the Sir Richard GREENVILLE mentioned in the article should be Sir Richard GRENVILLE, also known as GRANVILLE. I have the information available, if anyone is interested, on why the two names were used. In short, GRENVILLE was the name preferred by his family. http://www.butterfly.net/lotus/genealogy/patents.html#granville Having said that, I think it is important to note that the Lord GRENVILLE of 18th century America was of the house of CARTERET from the isle of JERSEY where the PAYN family I keep harping out was from. Like some members of the PAYN family of Jersey, Lord GRANVILLE was from Devonshire (where all of the famous merchants and explorers of England were from). These two families had been intermarrying since about the 13th century (see "An Armorial of Jersey" at my web site). The CARTERET family was given charters for New JERSEY and North Caroline. I believe they were also part of the 1607 settlement on the Kennebec River (now Maine). Lord GRENVILLE did not relinquish his interest in NC until the Revolutionary War and he remained the proprietor of about half of the Northern portion of the state until that time. Interestingly, at least two PAYNE families both from Maryland (although they both seem to have come there earlier from VA), left about 1765 for Rowan County, NC. They remained there until about 1790 when they removed to Greenville District, SC. (funny if you remove an E from Greenville, you get GRENVILLE!). I have not been able to determine if ROWAN, NC was under the propriety of the King or of CARTERET (GRENVILLE) in 1765. SO- there is about a 50/50 chance (since he held half the state) that it was under CARTERET :-} Henry and Rose PAINE are on the 1587 Roanoke muster (see my web page in the research room under musters), as is MANTEO. However, no children are listed for Henry & Rose at that time. Also in 1587, men of Jersey and the west country of England (where RALEIGH, DRAKE, CABOT, WEST, CARTERET, CALVERT, HOWARD, BERKELEY, and some PAYNE's, were from) were establishing a colony at Newfoundland. Guess what? The same names that are in Roanoke, Jersey, and the west country are all found in Newfoundland too. http://www.heritage.nf.ca/avalon/history/documents/names_a_d.html#a http://www.heritage.nf.ca/exploration/sponsored.html ( I recommend spending some time at this site) John MARTINE, about this time captained one of DRAKE's ships (and he also made the around the world voyage with DRAKE). He conceivably was with DRAKE when he visited the Colony at Roanoke prior to its disappearance and Martin may have had relatives at the Colony- George MARTYN. This John MARTINE is found in numerous PAYNE records (see my web site). He transported a family of PAINE's to New England in 1638 aboard the DILLIGENT, was known for his involvement with the Virginia Company as proprietor of Martin's Hundred, where there was much interest in establishing an iron works. These are all VERY important items I think. It is also important to note the names of the Roanoke Colonists apart from George MARTYN, and Henry and Rose PAINE. Here are some of interest: John WHITE Clement TAYLOR Thomas BUTLER Roger BAILY William Sole (COLE?) Edward POWELL Christopher COOPER Thomas STEVENS Thomas COLMAN John Sampson William BROWNE Dionys Harvie Mark BENNETT Michael MYLLET Roger PRAT Thomas SMITH Thomas HARRIS Nicholas JOHNSON Richard TAVERNER Ambrose Viccars William Willes John Sampson John BROOKE Margery Harvie John BRIGHT Agnes WOOD Ambrose Viccars William WATERS Winnifred POWELL John BRIDGER Joyce Archard Thomas HUMFREY William CLEMENT Jane JONES Hugh TAYLER Richard WILDYE Michael Bishop Jane PIERCE John PRAT William WYTHERS Henry PAINE Thomas HARRIS Alice Chapman Thomas SCOT George MARTYN -------- COLMAN Griffin JONES William NICHOLS Margaret Lawrence ------- Harvie Cutbert WHITE Joan WARREN Henry BROWNE John WRIGHT Rose PAYNE Manteo Cutbert WHITE Elizabeth Viccars Henry JOHNSON John JONES Most of these surnames later have direct correlations with PAINE/PAYNE's in the 17th century colonies (and into the 19th c. in some cases) by either marriage or close business contact. Particularly TAYLOR, BUTLER, BAILEY, COLE, POWELL, COOPER, COLEMAN, BROWNE, BENNETT, MYLETT (MALET), PRATT, WOOD, WATERS, WITHERS, MARTIN, NICHOLS, and WARREN. We either have marriages into these families or initimate business associations with them through shipping, iron works, trade, or through the clergy. More often than not, WHEREVER you find one surname, you will find them dealing with the others too. Not just one of them- several of them. Always forming a group. Moving into the 17th century, we have the sailing of the Second Supply in 1609, led by the SEA VENTURE. Aboard her were later Pilgrim Stephen HOPKINS (whose grand-daughter married Thomas PAINE of Eastham, Mass.), John ROLFE (the VA tobacco guy with servant Robert DAVIES in 1621- the alias of Robert PAYNE) and- Henry PAINE, gent. Names found with them at Bermuda include (from the book "Isle of Devils"- Jean Kennedy and first hand accounts by Jourdain (JORDAN) and William Strachey): BAYLEY's Bay- 234 BURROWS, Ellen- 248 BUTLER, Ann- 227 BUTLER, Nathaniel- 51-2, 77, 129, 134-58, 163, 164, 173, 198, 259, 264, 265, 266-7 CARTER, Christopher- 45, 49-68, 84, 88, 90-1, 105, 115 CARTER, Elizabeth- 227-8 COOPER's Island- 76, 85, 90, 94, 158, 168 DAVIS, Robert- 67-9, 73 De La WARRE, Lord (Thomas WEST)- 56, 131 DEAN(E), Paul- 104 DEANE, William- 240 DRAKE, Francis- 15, 62 EDWARDS, Rev. Mr.- 227 "Elizabeth" the ship- 73, 76 FELGATE, Capt. (Henry or Tobias?)- 162, 167, 168, 170, 172 "George" the ship- 96, 97 "Gillyflower" the ship- 129, 133 HALL, Robert- 104 HARRISON, John- 161, 164-5 HAWKINS, John- 207 HEYDON, Sir John- 236, 240-4, 264, 269 "Hopewell" the ship- 121, 122 HOPKINS, Stephen- 28, 36-7, 47-8, 59, 62 HUTCHINGS(Hutchins?), John- 216 "James" the ship- 154 JENNINGS, Richard- 173-5, 207 "Joseph" the ship- 145, 148, 160 JOURDAN, Silvanus- 59 KENDALL, Edwin- 67, 68-9, 73, 84, 91 KENDALL, Miles- 123-42, 152-6, 162, 167 KNIGHT, Mr.- 84, 85 LEE(Lee), Copeland- 254 LEE, Philip- 218, 219 "Margaret" the ship- 78 "Marmaduke" the ship- 16 MIDDLETON, John- 167, 199-200 MOORE, Goody- 200 MOORE, Richard- 66-86, 142 MORGAN, Bellingham- 169 Needham- 147 "Neptune" the ship- 117 NICHOLL, John- 232 POWELL, Capt.- 121-2, 143, 148, 150 POWELL, Thomas- 46 POWELL, Elizabeth- 46 PRYNNE, William- 189, 191 RICH, Sir Nathaniel- 100-1, 109, 111, 112, 113, 119, 128, 139, 177, 232 RICH, Robert- 109-20, 128, 139, 278 RICH, Sir Robert (Earl of Warwick)- 95, 101, 109, 127, 131, 138, 158, 163, 177, 206, 209, 265, 266 ROLFE, John- 48, 58, 184 ROSE, George- 225-6 ROWE, Owen- 229 SANDYS, Sir Edwin- 126-7, 128, 129, 137, 146, 151-2, 155, 157, 176-7 SANDYS, George- 129 "Sea Venture" the ship- 26-35, 41, 42, 52, 55, 60, 70, 154, 258, 260 "Seaflower" the ship- 134, 161-2, 164, 173 SMITH, John- 24, 54, 59, 259 SMITH, Samuel- 230 SMITH, Sir Thomas- 82, 126-9, 137, 139, 149-50, 176 SOMERS, Sir George- 27-61, 151, 259 SOMERS, Mathew- 53, 57, 58, 61 STAFFORD, Richard- 240, 244, 251 "Swallow" the ship- 26, 55 "Treasurer" the ship- 124, 125, 131, 137, 138, 140, 143, 146, 148, 150, 264 TUCKER, Daniel- 56, 92-3, 96-125, 128, 133, 147, 150, 162, 244, 263-4 TUCKER, Francis- 220 TUCKER, George- 93, 162, 219-20, 222, 269 TUCKER, Henry- 162, 219-20, 240, 248-9, 269, 271 TUCKER, James- 174-5 TUCKER, John- 249, 256 TUCKER, Teddy- 258, 260, 265 TURNER, Thomas- 191, 192, 197, 202-3 "Unitie" the ship- 26, 55 WALLER, Dr.- 100 WATERS, Edward- 48-66, 84, 85, 104, 108-9, 157, 264 WHITE, Anthony- 251, 270, WHITE, David- 227 WHITE, Nathaniel- 177, 178, 185-197, 226, 229, 268 WOOD, Ensign- 123-4, 130, 131, 132, 135 WOOD, John- 102, 103 WOOD, Roger- 161, 162, 167, 170, 171, 175, 209, 233 WRIGHT, Joseph- 161 I won't continue on and list the musters of JAMESTOWN, PLYMOUTH, MASSACHUSETTS BAY, NEWFOUNDLAND, etc..., but it's the same names all over again. We can continue to chalk it all up to coincidence, but no matter how you slice it, the fact remains- SOMETHING caused families having the SAME SURNAMES to have a mass exodus (apparently) from England and Jersey, at the same periods in history- 1587, 1607, 1609, 1620, 1630, and 1635 primarily, to emigrate. I chose to believe that it was something OTHER than a genetic precondition stemming from the surname alone that caused them to up and risk their lives every few years! After all, there were PLENTY of other surnames in England! Why these over and over again? Remember, we are talking about dates here when the number of settlers COMBINED was counted in the hundreds. Accounts taken in the 1640s put the population of English settlers in ALL of America at under 25,000. How in the world could so many people having the same surname, intermarrying and regularly conducting business together whereever we find them, come here and NOT share a relationship? Most of these names were appearing together by 1635. Especially in 1635 come to think of it. At this point, I have managed to associate more than one dozen families between New England and Virginia. Reliable sources such as Robert Charles Anderson, Thomas Lechford, William Strachey, Bernard Bailyn, David Hackett Fischer, James P. Horn, and societies such as the General Society of Mayflower descendants, all confirm that some of these families either had kin and/or other interests in the other colonies. Bernard Bailyn (probably the most respected Colonial American historian of our day) states emphatically that in regard to the first generation of merchants of New England, that they were "after three generations, in effect, one large family." I believe this to not only be true, but that that "family" extended to just about ALL of the colonies- from Roanoke in 1587 through at least Maryland in 1634, if not to North Carolina (and some in between) later. In any case, it is possible in some cases here to track family relationships over literally centuries- Like the CARTERET/PAYN marriages I mentioned from the 13th century. We can find Payne's indirectly associated with them still in the late 17th century in the tobacco trade between the colonies and Jersey. And, if I'm right about Rowan County, NC., possibly well into the 18th century too. Anyway, I am continuing to sort the records I have collected- mostly business, admiralty, and shippings accounts, which when applied to existing research are telling this story accurately I believe. If they are not, then it is the most complex and sustained instance of coincidence in the history of the world! One thing that I hope we remember, is that these records I am talking about- all the shipping and business records- of the 17th century are NEW. Nobody has taken these men into account within their research. At least, not these particular activities. I have not found any reference to them in any published source. No mention of the JOHN & DOROTHY, ELIZABETH, SUSAN & HELLEN, and the mariners Thomas, John, Edward, George, Nicholas, Nathaniel, Robert, William, Silvanus, or Tobias PAYNE, or any of the other ships these PAYNE's were involved with; I've never read in a PAYNE genealogy anything about Henry PAINE of either Roanoke or Bermuda; No mention of William PAYNE who built ships for William CLAIBORNE; No mention of John PAYNE of Dublin, Ireland or that he was imprisoned in Galway for a year; In short- we simply must come to grips with these NEW PAYNE's in our research. When we do, we will be able to figure out the Roanoke mystery and Henry PAINE, our connection to Jersey, Ireland, and Scotland. Maybe even Holland and Portugal... Who knows where it will all lead! Heck- I've been contacted by several people who are apparent followers of the proclaimed Duke of Albany, hire to the STUART thrown! Anyone else heard of this guy, Michael STUART? Anyway, they tell me that these men of my network had links to the masons and the Knights Templar- and we all know who the founder of that group was- Hugh de PAYEN :-} That's even a little much for me to swallow! But who knows what we could find? Why has nobody found this by now? I believe that it is largely due to the fact that history has compartmented itself so much that they can't see beyond one area of specialty. They focus on New England, or they focus on Virginia. There are very few publications that address both. The most important works that do are apparently Fischer's "Albions Seed" and Horn's "Adapting to a New World," where they even address these family networks I am writing about. Yet, they provide very little insight into the families that comprised them. Nobody has apparently taken the time to figure it out to see where it leads. Maybe one day they will... Lord knows I'm doing my best to bring it to someone's attention! Problem is, who the heck am I to stick my nose in their business? That's how they tend to make you feel. It all sounds to much like fiction, doesn't it? ;-} That's a good reason to ignore it I guess. Those I have spoken to give polite encouragement to my "project" or more likely, discount it before looking at record one. Posts like those coming to the list these past few days are the kind that stimulate others into putting their thinking caps on though. I hope it continues! Others may scoff at it as "unprofessional" or "not scholarly research," but it is being imaginative and original. It's those people that get things done- just look at history ;-} On with the search! Patrick http://papayne.rootsweb.com

Thanks for the information on opening MIME Files. Your way sounds so simple I surely hope it works. Thanks, again. Mary Ellen

For some, this will be a welcome post and one long overdue... This will be my last post to this list. It seems there are those out there that are hell bent on twisting my words and discrediting my research efforts- without once referring to the records. These people have NEVER visited my web site to review the records available there (one reason that I required registration in the first place), base their attacks solely on my posts to the list (- after mixing my words around to suit their purpose), have made NO EFFORT to study the records of the over one dozen ACTIVE PAYNE mariners of the 17th century (that nobody ever seems to discuss or even mention), refuse to believe there is ANY possibility of a relationship between branches- although there is tons of evidence within *these* records that strongly suggest otherwise. Regardless of what anyone believes about these families or what the truth will ultimately turn out to be- these records deserve our study as all published sources are silent on them. We have glaring holes in our research if we don't include them. Moreover, I have raised numerous questions that deserve some answers. We are "missing the boat" if we don't account for them or consider the importance of the facts that they owned and captained ships (THE SAME SHIPS!) throughout the 17th century, regularly intermarried and associated with families of the same surnames (- no matter where we find them and over a period of decades, not just a couple of records- mounds of them), were involved in such large enterprises as iron works (not just in New England either) which was a very significant concern in those days, intermarried and associated with some of the most notable clergymen of the day, or a host of other important considerations that is NEVER brought to the forefront of our research. I simply tried to address those issues that we otherwise never hear about. There are OTHER WAYS to prove relationships apart from a record that says Joe was the son of John DOE! A record like that might be ideal, but in the early 17th century, we may never have that luxury and we therefore must make the best use of ALL THE DATA we have available to us. Yes- that means that we will sometimes have to wade through some dung to find the gold. Those that refuse to do so and wait on the magic record to appear, in my opinion, are the ones responsible for both limiting progress and alienating some fine researchers from contributing their finds. In short, if you are going to criticize someone, at least have the consideration to have given their ideas serious thought and study. If you haven't even LOOKED at it- what right do you have? It's as if these people believe that solely because I have found the same names occurring in records that I have somehow determined that there is a relationship between them! This only goes to show that they have not been paying attention :-} I will be leaving my web site on-line but I do not know if I will continue trying to make updates to it. Haven't decided yet... The mailing lists will also remain active, although I will probably seek a new owner for them. I hate to do this to the many kind folks I have met over the years who have given me their support. Unfortunately, for every 100 letters of support I get, the few I get from these others ruins any satisfaction I would get from my effort. It makes it all seem pointless and has made me think about who I am doing this for anyway? The answer is for myself and my family. I don't think some people realize the time, effort, and money that I have sunk into this project. Over nearly three years, I have pursued this "hobby" virtually full-time. I don't mean 8 hours per day either. Every waking and free moment has been spent on it. I left my job (as an administrator with a high-tech company) in order to pursue this research unhindered by any other responsibilities. Since that time, I have spent roughly 18 hours per day and literally thousands of dollars in savings for travel costs, books, memberships, and professional assistance. I did not do this on a whim. I did it because I was convinced by *these* records (combined with known facts) that I was on to something *and* I still believe that! Over the past several months, many others have come to feel this way too as every week it seems I would receive some information that coincides perfectly with the story I have been putting together. They, too, are becoming excited about the new doors that have opened for them. This support has come from not only PAYNE researchers, but Allied families as well. I have received encouragement from noted historians, such as Professor Bailyn (please read "The New England Merchants of the 17th Century") and others. I suppose I'm being rather "thin-skinned" in the long run, but it's just not worth it anymore. At a time when the research has been yielding some of its best results too! I would like to think that I am an intelligent person with an above average ability in abstract reasoning, problem-solving, etc. My IQ, as last tested by the military, was 128. I passed the air-traffic controllers exam with a score of 97 (102 if I include my veterans preference points). If anyone has ever picked up a study guide for that exam in a bookstore, you know that this was no easy accomplishment! You may wonder, "what does THAT have to do with genealogy research?" Much more than you would think, believe me! One of the prime reasons of the test is to determine the ability to recognize patterns and recurring events. I don't include this as some form of self-praise. Just to show I'm no idiot, as some would apparently label me. Lastly, I want to say how unfortunate it is that I am not alone in my feelings. I have met several researchers who simply have given up for the same reasons- a few bad apples who do not realize the insult they give. Maybe I am guilty of it too. I understand that many of you have been researching for years and years- possibly even longer than I've been alive! But that is NO EXCUSE for some of the letters I have received. Just because you may have spent the last 100 years researching, it does not mean that there is no room for alternate ways of thinking. Nor does it give you license to become the PAYNE POLICE and attack others. If you disagree with the research of others, point out SPECIFIC items. But DO NOT just attack every aspect of their effort! Good Luck to you "thicker-skinned" folks out there. I'm not admitting defeat- just moving on to avoid people like these- who uncannily seem to all be on this list! But- there I go using my brain again to draw conclusions based on observation and record ;-} The very thing that caused this mess to begin with! Those of you who would like to keep in touch with me will know how to reach me and I look forward to hearing from you. It's just time to become a little less public for fear of being trounced. Walls may come down here and there, but this is the biggest one we face. Until it comes down, no significant advances will be made on answering many of the questions. Everyone is to afraid to ask them or suggest solutions for them- because they are not based on the same old outdated accounts of the 1930's that we have grown accustomed to. While those accounts have their place, they are but foundations to build on at this point. Just like the historians accounts of Colonial America, these, too, have limited themselves to particular areas of settlement- Virginia, Massachusetts, Maine, Connecticut, etc... There is a bigger picture out there folks! I hope we all come to realize that one day. Buck the norm. Be original and consider everything- no matter how outlandish you may think it is. It may be the key you need. A last contribution on a happy note- although no PAYNE's are mentioned in the following, it does have its place in PAYNE research for those that will look for it. It was posted to the LONDON-COMPANYS-L list today: "The Story of the Pilgrim Fathers, 1606-1623 A.D." by Edward Arber Chapter "The two Virginia Companies" Page 254 "The Rev. Doctor E.D. Neill adds, "He was hired by Daniel Gookin, owner of the Providence, to take that ship to Virginia which arrived April 10th, 1623.[see S.P. Colonial, Vol.II, 10 April 1623]." This reference refers to John Clarke, hired by Gookin. John had taken cattle from Ireland to Virginia in 1619. On this site,http://www.ida.net/users/dhanco/names.htm#names1, I found the following: 1644 Daniel Gookin (1612-1687), son of an early Irish settler in Virginia, moves to Massachusetts and eventually becomes a member of the Governor's Council, major general of the militia, and superintendent of Indian affairs. Are we talking about the same family here??? At this site: http://www.historichamptonroads.com/Documents/Definitions/Definitions.htm Marie's Mount: Pronounced "Mary�s". Located in current day downtown Newport News. Marie's Mount was named after the wife of the first known settler in Newport News, Daniel Gookin, Sr. Here: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/dave_rigney/history/history.htm >From Adventures of Purse and Person William Cole (William) bought, 1671, the "Bolthrupe" plantation of 1350 acres lying on the Warwick River between "Denbigh," the Mathews plantation, and "Windmill Point," the seat of the Carys. In addition, on 20 April 1685 Cole acquired 1433 acres laying largely in Warwick County but partly in Elizabeth City, "commonly called Newport News according to the most ancient and lawful bounds." This was the major portion of a grant to the heirs of Daniel Gookin, who had settled at Newport News, March 1621/22. It extended along the James River from its mouth approximately four miles. And here: http://www.heritagebooks.com/neweng.htm The Register, Vol. 4, 1850 - Genealogies: Bradford; Davenport; Gilbert; Gookin; Leverett; Otis; Wentworth; Winslow; Wright. Records: physicians of Ipswich MA; Saybrook CT vr; list of Freemen; Dover NH town records; Plymouth Co MA wills; Suffolk Co MA wills; Boston area vr; Weymouth MA vr; passengers for VA; Wrentham MA vr; marr & deaths from news.; Dorchester MA inscr; Marshfield MA inscr; Gloucester MA vr; Reprint, 388 pp., index. paper, $31.00 #ZNR04 One of Daniel's men: http://www.esva.net/ghotes/saxis/d2/i0012015.htm Henry immigrated to 1623.(10339) Henry was living after 1632/3 in Accawmack Co, VA.(10340) Henry's will was probated 26 Nov 1635 in Accawmack Co, VA.(10341) Henry Carsley came to Virginia in 1623 in the "Providence" and at the age of 23 years when the muster was taken in Feb 1624/5, was living at Newport News, VA, as one of Daniel Gookin's men. Henry was a headright named in Daniel Gookin's patent for 2500 acres in Upper Norfolk Co, 29 Dec 1637, pursuant to order of court, 25 Feb 1634/5. The shipping and cattle breeding enterprise projected by Gookin did not prosper and Henry Carsley migrated to the Eastern Shore where many settlers began to take up land after the 1621/2 massacre. On 19 Feb 1633/4 Carsley petitioned the court held at"Accawmack" for a lease of 50 acres upon Old Plantation Creek (in present day Northampton Co) on the south side of Fishing Creek. At least this begins to give you a picture of where the grant was and confirms the cattle tie to the Gookins. I believe you will find Daniel, the owner of the Providence to be the father of the Daniel who came to Virginia (born 1612) and then to Massachusetts. The patent in 1620 would have been to the father. One of the Masters of the Providence was a Richmond. Gail ______________________________X-Message: #5 Date: Mon, 30 Aug 1999 21:41:33 -0400 From: Gail Howard <dardena@mix-net.net> To: LONDON-COMPANYS-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <37CB32CD.F7AFE8BE@mix-net.net> Subject: Re: GOOKIN reply Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Today I have found Daniel Gookin's name spelled Coohin and Cookin so be aware that the G looks like a C in handwriting and the k like an h. Below is from the Virginia Library Colonial Records Project: SR05860 Reel #856 page 5 6, f.375vo 25 Aug 1624 "John Driver of Bristol, shipwright, aged 38, deposed that he built the ship Mary Providence of Cork near Bristol about 2 1/2 years before, and that it was sold to Daniel Coohin of Galway and Jenkins, and fitted out for a voyage to Virginia, and he knew that the cost of fitting her out was L400 and upwards." So we have learned Daniel Gookin was the owner of at least two ships, the Providence and the Mary Providence. That they likely sailed out of Cork, Ireland with cattle for Virginia and Daniel was "of Galway and Jenkins". He apparently had his ships built at Bristol (at least one was) and from the list at the Colonial Records Project, the Providence made many trips. Considering the cost of outfitting a ship for upwards of L400, Daniel apparently was not poor. In Richmond Family Records (I found the connection, Dick!) Page 146 Jan. 9, 1623/4 Capt. Richard[Richmond alias Sheppard] with his brother or son Lt. John is last heard of in command of a privateer, the Mary Providence, in Va. In Bennett's History of Bandon, p243. Daniel Gookin, gent., who owned part of the cargo of this ship [Mary Providence] and who founded a colony in Va. was related to the Gookins of Ireland. These are people from Bandon in County Cork, Ireland. You may find the family vital statistics there. Good Luck! Gail

> looking for the father of my George Washington Payne > for years Diann, where was your George Washington PAYNE from? What year? I have a gr grandfather George Washington PAYNE..and can't find his parents.. My GWP was born 4 May 1854 in Indiana... he md Rosa Burnett.. they had 3 ch.. Nettie, Lester & Theresa.. Lester died from burns he rec'd from falling into the fireplace while the mother was down the hill getting water.. she left 3 year old Nettie to watch him... he was in his high chair...don't know what happened..but the high chair and Lester fell into the fire place.. probably little Nettie climbed up on the high chair, or Lester tried to stand up in it.. Thanks, Wilma Fleming Haynes gencon@harborside.com

Does anyone know anything about Malockie Paine mentioned in this article? http://www.yvwiiusdinvnohii.net/lit/molung.html The Wild Shores, "Americas Beginnings", By Tee Loftin Snell, 1974, a National Geographic book, shows similar information as above, with some additional information and, of course, wonderful color pictures, as all N.G.S. books do. In this article, the group of colonist with White were said to number 117 settlers. This is the group left there by mistake. When they landed, they did find the bones of one man, wrote John White. He later learned from Manteo's people, whom he visited at Croatan Sandbar, present day Hatteras, that 13 men rowed their boats away from Roanoke during an Indian attack. Perhaps they still lived, lost in the wilderness. Manteo, was the chief of the tribe already living on Roanoke. He was taken to live in England for a year and it looks as if he returned when the White colony was brought over. White stayed on the island and visited Manteo's people for one month when he returned to find everyone gone. He made numerous water colors of the local people, flora and fauna. These drawings are on display at the British Museum in London today. Roanoke has a festival each summer with a play of the story presented. This article says the Lumbee Indians in present Robeson County , North Carolina "have a strong tradition that the Roanoke colony amalgamated with them," as historian Samuel Eliot Morison says in "The European Discovery of America". Some blue- eyed, fair-haired types, Elizabethan words, and surnames all "bear this out, " he adds. The Lumbees, he notes, earlier known as Croatan or Hatteras Indians, migrated inland about 1650. About 1660, Rev. Morgan Jones wandered into their midst and to his surprise "conversed in English" with them. But did all the Hatteras clans go inland? About 1700 John Lawson, exploring North Carolina's coast, wrote that "gray-eyed" Hatteras Indians said "several of their ancestors were white people, and could talk in a book." (this was the early Cherokee term for reading...vjj) The article continues. And I heard these intriguing remarks from Sheriff Frank Calhoun , 67, at Manteo on Roanoke Island: "My grandfather, born in 1830, told me that in his Indian village he lived in one of several very old two-story houses of hand hewn timbers and boards on the mainland across from Roanoke. His blond, blue-eyed mother, Malockie Paine, we believe, was descended from colonist Henry Paine."