Hello everyone, The DNA project has attracted over one dozen participants to date, representing as many families. There have been as many, if not more, responses from individuals who unfortunately cannot participate as they either were not male and/or not a Payne. It's wonderful to receive so many responses from so many interested people, regardless of their surname! This is great news and I would like to thank all of those who have responded thus far. One of the continuing questions I am getting is why females cannot participate. So I'm going to give a *very* brief biology lesson which should clear things up, and perhaps the details will entice some other Paynes to join the project. We desperately need to have representation from descendants of the early Payne families. Those with a known connection to the Paynes of Virginia and New England, for example. Those families are the key to the whole project as they will form the baseline Y-chromosome markers for the rest of us who suspect a connection to them. I'll get into this a bit more in a moment. Males have one X and one Y-chromosome, and they produce both X and Y chromosome's in the reproduction process. Women have a pair of X-chromosomes in their DNA. During reproduction, if the egg is fertilized by an X-chromosome, it produces a girl. If fertilized with a Y-chromosome, it produces a boy. This Y-chromosome is passed virtually unchanged from father-to-son, and it is for this reason that the chromosome can be studied over very long periods of time- many generations- but only in the male line. If the male line is uninterrupted by things like adoption or marital infidelity, the Y-chromosome in each generation will be the same, or nearly so. This isn't "Jurassic Park" or "Cloning" stuff! It's basically the simple comparison of a portion of our DNA, which is collected by swabbing the gums. The Y-chromosome is unaffected by exchange or any other influence of the X chromosome that came from the mother. It is the only nuclear chromosome that escapes the continual reshuffling of parental genes during the process of sex cell production, which makes it particularly useful to genealogy. Thomas H. Roderick, PhD, Center for Human Genetics, states that "a male has a Y chromosome essentially identical to that of his father, and his father's father, and his father's father's father, and so on back indefinitely through all ancestral generations on the Y chromosome line, more succinctly called the Y-line. (For a recent more complete discussion of the Y line see this author's article: The Y chromosome in genealogical research. Nat. Geneal. Soc. Quart. 2000, Vol. 88, No.2, pp.122-143). But rare changes or mutations in the Y chromosome can occur over time. Therefore, over many generations, we develop altered molecular sites in our Y chromosomes. Some of these changes survive, and once they happen can persist over many generations or indefinitely. Thus, for genealogical research, we are fortunate that molecular variants in the Y chromosome occur, but that they are relatively rare. Without the inherited variants (similar to being without variations in surnames) we could not derive or comprehend separate lineages. With the inherited variants we can provide evidence for genealogical relationships over a few or many generations. Very common molecular change or mutation would permit us only to identify connections between closely related families. Rare and unique changes, on the other hand, make it possible to identify connections into great antiquity well beyond historical records. Fortunately we have both kinds. Let's take a specific question that might confront say the hypothetical Humpke Family. There is good evidence that those with this name came from only two different immigrating founders in the 17th century. Their European ancestry is expected to be German but is not known, and there is no evidence that they were in contact with each other after migrating to North America. But the Humpke Family Association, which admits members descending from both immigrants would dearly like to know if they are related, and if the Humpke name in these two families derives from a common male Y line ancestor. If all Humpkes come from one male who took the name as a surname, then we say the surname is "monophyletic," another useful term for genealogists. So we contact one of the few commercial companies analyzing differences among Y chromosomes and obtain kits that provide a cotton tipped stick for one to take a swab of tissue from the inside of the cheek. A good scraping, which does not hurt, is sufficient for the company to make the analysis over several polymorphic sites. The Humpke Family Association gets three or four males of the name from one Humpke immigrant and three or four males of the name from the other immigrant, to get an inner cheek (buccal) sample, pays the money, and waits for the results. The results come back saying all eight men have identical or nearly identical molecular Y patterns (called Y haplotypes), thus confirming that all eight and thus including the two early immigrant Humpkes derive from the same Y line in relatively recent time. The conclusion is that the name is indeed monophyletic. The Y haplotypes are identical among these men or nearly so, and depending on closely they match, an estimate of the genealogical distance between the two Humpke immigrants could be made." This hypothetical Humpke family has a lot in common with our early Paynes. We know, for instance, that William Payne of Boston and Ipswich (proprietor of the Saugus Iron Works), had interests on VIRGINIA'S Eastern Shore in the 1640s, where he conducted business with Col. Edmund Scarburgh, who had been close friends with John Neale and William Eltonhead. William of Boston had to dispatch his "loving friend" Capt. William Kendall, to collect a debt from Scarburgh, as he could not make the journey himself [see Whitelaw, "Virginia's Eastern Shore,"; "Northampton County Wills and Deeds," Frank Walzyck; and Alison Games, doctoral thesis, "Origin and Migration of the English Atlantic World," Princeton University Press, 1999]. William Eltonhead should be a name immediately recognizable to the PAYNES of Virginia [and Maryland too for that matter]. Although Eltonhead was initially from the Easter Shore of Virginia (across the bay from John Payne in Westmoreland County), and thereafter settled in St. Mary's County, Maryland, his sister, Martha Eltonhead, was the grandmother of Elizabeth PAYNE, the granddaughter of John Payne, the immigrant [Paynes of Virginia]. William Eltonhead and his wife, Jane Gerard, owned a slave by the name of Francis Payne, who negotiated his freedom in 1649 from Eltonhead! [ Northampton County Wills and Deeds] All coincidence you say? Well then... Add in the fact that Col. Richard LEE, the immigrant (m. Anne Constable), was often found in early Virginia records with Florentine Payne [Cavaliers and Pioneers, vol. i]. Col. Lee's son, Richard II, married Lettice Corbin, daughter of Henry Corbin by Alice ELTONHEAD, another sister of William! William Payne (d. 23 Feb 1697/1698), in his will dated 1 Jan. 1697/8, names "his loving friend Richard Lee of Lower Machotique as guardian of his children. He instructed his daughter Anne to go immediately to Col. Lee's house." [Paynes of Virginia] This daughter Anne (b. ca. 1689), married Vincent Cox, Jr. (d. 1712), and her sister-in-law, also named Anne, married John Redman, who received a patent with John NEALE of Accomack, for Smith's Island ["Virginia's Eastern Shore"; Paynes of Virginia]. Capt. Kendall's (later Col. Kendall) daughter Mary, married Hancock Lee (1653-1709) ["Virginia's Eastern Shore"]. That's all I'll get into for now [I don't want to give away to many highlights just yet!], but I believe it is evident that there is good sound reason to pursue this project! There are several other questions that can be answered as well. Brooke Payne cited several reasons for believing that there had been a connection between other Virginia branches within his Paynes of Virginia. Yet he never got around to the 2nd volume he eluded too. Now we have the opportunity to see if he was right. By combining the results of this project, with Brooke's and our own research, we can not only determine these connections if they existed, but stand a very good chance of identifying the generation the relationship occurred. With that, we may be able to identify the common ancestor's name. We just need descendants of these families to participate in the project. I've never been great a the PR game [I'm a Payne afterall!'], but I hope that the information I have provided is of interest enough to encourage members of our mailing lists to become a part of this project, whether it be as an active participant, or by simply informing others of it who might become one. I'm happy to answer any questions or concerns. The project page is located at http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203 , which I am keeping updated. Regards, Patrick

I've had a chance to read over the information sheet sent to me by BYU/Relative Genetics and thought I would post it to the list so that those interested can read the details. I've posted it on the project's web site at: http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203/index.html , under "Project Details". They sent it in HTML format and because the listserver will not accept posts in that format, you'll have to go to the web site to read it. The response to date has been encouraging and several people have signed up to participate. I've also had numerous people respond wishing to participate that unfortunately cannot because of the nature of the test. The information on the site explains the test and the process pretty well. However, for clarification purposes, to participate you must be a MALE and a PAYNE. The details explain why that is so. There is currently no date set for sending out test kits to participants and we won't begin that process until we have representatives from the lines we'd like to include in the test. Ideally, we'd like to have at least three from the major lines of interest- particularly those from New England, Virginia, and Jersey. Other's who would like to determine if there was a genealogical connection to those lines, or any other lines that participate, would also benefit from the test. Regards, Patrick

Nancy Payne born 1808 married to 1) Wilson 2) J. Gentry and 3) Joshua Coleman. I show her father to be William Payne born 1787 in Fairfax, Virginia and her mother to be Sarah Hamilton born 1790 in Kentucky. If anyone can help me with this I would appreciate it. Mollie Jo

Well, I heard back from BYU much quicker than I anticipated! Their "special cases" coordinator now works for Relative Genetics and they handle the special cases for BYU's Molecular Genealogy Project. I am happy to say that they have accepted the PAYNE family to participate in their study! They have sent me a Word attachment that I have not yet been able to thoroughly read as I received this while at work. I'll have all of the details when I get home and will make it available at the Project's web site- http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203/index.html The attachment contains the process of the testing procedure, how the tests are performed, what information we can expect from the results, and how they will assist in the interpretation of the results- among other things. I also plan to create a participants page where I will assign a reference number to each person as they respond (for privacy), giving details of their pedigree, such as the earliest known ancestor. That way we can track the branches of the family that intend to participate. Ideally, we'll want as many participants as possible from each branch that we can sign up. A minimum of three is suggested I believe, although one will do. It just helps to confirm the results if we have more than one per branch for comparison. So far, the response has been good. We have over a dozen signed up so far, including one participant from France and one from the Caribbean where his ancestors have lived for over 200 years. He is a likely descendant of Sir Ralph Payne, Lord Lavington, who had been Governor General of the Leeward Islands. It is hoped that we'll soon have participants from the New England and Virginia lines. At the moment, I believe we have one or two representatives of those lines. We'd certainly like to include as many as possible. One important thing that I need to include at this point is that unlike my earlier impression, the testing is not free of charge. They are not that well funded unfortunately. However, it is significantly cheaper than it would have been had we gone to another lab. The cost is $150.00 per participant. Fortunately, EVERYONE that has responded so far has indicated that they would be willing to pay a fee if needed. If it comes down to it in order to get the participation we need, I may dig into my own pocket to cover expenses of those wishing to participate that would not be able to do so otherwise. I'll have to wait to see how this goes first though. I don't want this wrinkle to prevent the project from continuing! As I see it, the benefits that we stand to gain from this project greatly exceed the cost involved. Considering the price of books, memberships, photocopying, and all else, I know I spend more than that for just a few books! Have to run back to work! Just wanted to keep everyone posted on the progress. Patrick

Hello everyone, Not so long ago, you may recall the hoopla surrounding the use of DNA analysis to help establish that Thomas Jefferson had fathered a child by his slave, Sallie Hemings. The use of DNA testing has become firmly established in our courts for the purpose of identifying everything from felons to fathers. Now it has found it's way into genealogy with growing acceptance too. In fact, it's now something that universities all over the world are applying to many different problems, such as determining population migrations. Many families have already made use of the technology in order to assist them with their genealogical problems and it has made it's way into the pages of academic journals, and mainstream magazines. Now we have the chance of participating too. For details, please visit the page at http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203/index.html In short, I am trying to enlist volunteers for a study being conducted by researchers at BYU. I have contacted them in response to their search for families that would be interested in participating with their research. If we have any hope of being accepted, we're going to need to be prepared. I think this is a great opportunity and I hope you will too. I can assure you that everything will be treated confidentially and the process is easy and painless. Collection requires nothing more than a swab of the gums. All participants are assigned a code so that their identities are protected. We have a good start already. I've heard from several people interested in participating, and they have gone so far as to say that if BYU doesn't use us in their study, they would be willing to contract with another lab to do the testing. Of course, that would involve a fee, but as a contingency we're trying to prepare for that too- just in case. Regards, Patrick

new email address: marcellastein@juno.com old email: marcellmassey@juno.com Please make a note of it.

I need to see if anyone has access to ancestry.com and can find the birth date and date of death for a child named Terry Payne he would have been born between 1963-1965 and died when he was three or four of pneumonia. His mother died just this past week and we want to put a date on his tombstone. Please can someone help? He was buried by a funeral home in Beebe, AR but they said their records are packed away and it will take weeks to find it. We need these dates as soon as possible. HELP! Amy amymac@alltel.net Working on finding those elusive branches of our Family Tree. MCLEAN, LINCOLN, SKINNER, LEECH, CARY, WARREN, STURGIS, HALL, WEST, VAUGHAN, BEVERAGE, MASON

I have searched and searched looking for Thomas 1) PAINE - he came from England to America in 1774 - he was the author of the Patriot Pamphlete published in January 1776 called "Common Sense" "Thomas PAINE was a tempestuous, restless man, he became involved in the histories of three nations - his native England, France and especially, America. After losing a position as office of the excise because he had written a fiery pamphlet about the corruption in the service resulting from poor salaries, he met Benjamin FRANKLIN, who sent him to America. Thomas PAINE arrived in late 1774 and became an editor of the Pennsylvania Magazine in Philadelphia. As soon as the Revolution broke out he began advocating separation from Briton. In 1787 Thomas PAINE returned to England after writing "The Rights of Man" a defense of the French Revolution which urged the England to overthrow their monarchy, he was forced to flee France. There he was elected to national office and ultimately got into trouble for voting against the execution of the deposed King Louis XVI. His age of Reason, a deistic treatise opposing organized religion, alienated many of this friends. Thomas returned to America in 1802, dying in 1809." Do any of you know about him, or where I can find information on him? I am interested in his brother John [who my aunt says we come thru] and his parents. Thanks a bunch Wilma Fleming Haynes gencon@harborside.com

Looking for ancestors of James P., lived in Delta Colorado in 1912 and G.W., who lived in Sacramento, California in 1912. Thank you. Ann --- Ann Everingham --- aeveringham@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

Hello all William Featherstone Payne married Sophia Avards at Tunbridge Wells16 June 1829. Does anyone know him. Believe he and Sophia moved to USA. Regards June

I am looking for the ancestors or descendents of George Washington Payne, Sr. He is buried in the Brownsville Cemetery, Yuba, California. He was killed by a train 26 July 1888. According to his obituary, he was 77, died near Challenge Mills, native of Illinois. We have also discovered a G.W. Payne in another obituary. Angeline Payne, 9 month old daughter of Mr. Mrs. G. W. Payne, died in Long Bar Twp, Yuba, CA on 8 June 1880. G.W. Payne , Jr., age 25, is listed in the Great Register of Yuba Sutter Counties of 1875 1879. Registered as a miner on 16 April 1867 at Foster's Bar. There was no Naturalization Record. Age 25 in 1867, therefore born 1842. If anyone knows of this family, I would appreciate hearing from you. --- Ann Everingham --- aeveringham@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

I am seeking information on the descendents of Berry Payne and Mary Polly Farley. They were in Lawrence County Alabama from 1860 through 1870.

I found some papers that my aunt wrote several years ago - she is deceased and I can't ask her any questions - At one time she had our family traced [STEVENS / STEPHENS] traced by what she called a 'professional genealogist' This was several years ago, like 50 years ago. Then she burned it cuz she said no one was interested - I asked her "What was I, chopped liver?" Any way what I found was some writings found in her home after her death- Perhaps some of you can shed some light on what she is talking about- I can't make any progress with it - nor do I see a connection.. I think perhaps she was not remembering when she wrote this - "my great grandmother [she didn't say which one] was born to John PAINE'S brother - I do not have his first name. John PAINE was the states men from England whom was a important man of the 13 colonies and with General George WASHINGTON and other leaders won the war with England and established the language of our constitution. John PAINE returned to England and married, but his wife died in child birth as did the child. He brought his young brother back to the colonies before the Revolutionary war with England. John went to France to purchase boots and clothing for the officers and men of the early military in the new world. When the goods and uniforms arrived the agent in France charged three times the purchase cost - there was nothing to do but pay, we had no money to speak of so General George WASHINGTON paid for the shipment himself, they were needed. Now his brothers name just came to me, Thomas PAINE - my great grandmother was Thomas PAINES daughter- now one more generation - Thomas PAINE'S daughter married John ADAMS the s/o President John ADAMS- John ADAMS jr married [her name was Sarah].. I have a gr grand mother of hers - that I don't know her lineage - other wise I have 'em all through many years of searching - I have a lot of ADAMS' - and PAINE'S but am not doing so well in following her story line - Any one have any ideas? Thank you very much Wilma Fleming Haynes gencon@harborside.com

In a message dated 10/17/01 9:23:43 AM Central Daylight Time, jeff@naicu.edu writes: > This may not be a hoax, per se, but it IS pointless to sign and forward it. > (Go to http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/firemansday.html for a good > discussion of why it's pointless.) > > For starters, the "petitions" are supposed to go to a Hotmail address -- but > Hotmail's Terms of Service expressly prohibit this kind of chain letter. > That's probably why the address is no longer working (as another poster > noted). > > What a wonderful way for a no gooder to collect E-Mail addresses from innocent do gooders. No public official is apt to pay any attention to one of the petitions even if it is legitimate. Now, lets get back to genealogy. Jno

This may not be a hoax, per se, but it IS pointless to sign and forward it. (Go to http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/firemansday.html for a good discussion of why it's pointless.) For starters, the "petitions" are supposed to go to a Hotmail address -- but Hotmail's Terms of Service expressly prohibit this kind of chain letter. That's probably why the address is no longer working (as another poster noted). I'm sure the originator and the signers were well intentioned. We all want to do something in the wake of September 11. But just forwarding e-mails is not going to help anyone. As David Emery, host of the About Urban Legends site, says, "Some people argue that even if email petitions are ineffective as a tool of protest, they can at least, because of their wide circulation, inform vast numbers of people that certain problems exist. But it's just as arguable that 'signing' such documents lulls people into a false sense of actually contributing to solutions." If you want to do something, bake some cookies and take them to your local firehouse. Every day they stand between you and the kind of disaster we saw on September 11. Or write a check to the Salvation Army. Or volunteer for your local Red Cross chapter. But please, before you hit the "Send" button on any e-mail petition, check it out at http://urbanlegends.about.com, or the Urban Legends Reference Pages at http://www.snopes2.com/. Your correspondents will thank you for it. --Jeff Hume-Pratuch -> -----Original Message----- -> From: BECalnon@aol.com [mailto:BECalnon@aol.com] -> Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 9:25 AM -> To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com -> Subject: Subj: FW: National Firefighters day -> -> -> Subj: FW: National Firefighters day -> Date: 10/16/01 8:49:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time

It's true about the petition for a National Firefighter's Day being a hoax. The email address that the petition is supposed to be sent to when it reaches 500 names does not exist at Hotmail. ----Original Message Follows---- From: PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com Reply-To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com To: PAYNE-D@rootsweb.com Subject: PAYNE-D Digest V01 #117 Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:00:56 -0600 << message2.txt >> << message4.txt >> << message6.txt >> << message8.txt >> << message10.txt >> _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Merced Sun-Star, Monday, October 15, 2001 LUTHER PAYNE, 74 Janitor Luther Lee-Edward Payne, a resident of Merced for 50 years, died Oct. 6 in Merced. He was born May 30, 1927, in Weleetka, OK. He was a janitor with Morris Garden Convalescent for 20 years. Mr. Payne is survived by his daughters, Shawn Payne Heath, Rosslyn Payne, and Arnetta Lee Payne, all of Bakersfield, and Kristy Payne of Merced; his son, Luther Payne, Jr. of New Jersey; his sisters, Verma Hamm and Erma Jones of Merced; and Thelma Smith of San Francisco; his brother, Percy Payne of Kansas City, MO; 10 grandchildren and 10 great-grandchildren. Visitation will take place at Stratford Evans Merced Chapel Tuesday from noon to 7pm. A funeral will take place at the chapel Wednesday at 1:30pm. Burial will take place at Merced District Cemetery under the direction of Stratford Evans Merced Chapel.

That petition is a "hoax"-- just try sending it to the address suggested. I'm getting 2 or 3 of these types of things each day. All our energy to no avail.

Subj: FW: National Firefighters day Date: 10/16/01 8:49:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time Firefighters from all over have come to the aid and rescue of the tragedy   In New York, Washington D.C., and Pennsylvania. Many firefighters have   lost their lives to save someone else's. The truth of the matter is they   do this every single day. They truly are heroes. I know many of you feel the same as I do - - helpless; especially those   of us who live far from NY and DC and PA. We all want to do something to   show our appreciation and our support (aside from displaying our American   Flags, our Red, White & Blue colors and our yellow and/or PURPLE RIBBONS. I think we can do more . . . In honor of the bravery, courage and determination of American   firefighters, there should be a day in our nation to celebrate and   appreciate their hard work and never-ending passion for saving lives.   Let's start a petition for a National Firefighters Day. Will you join me? Please type in: the chronological number, your name, city & state, and   pass it along! You must copy this message (by cut & paste method) into   your outgoing e-mail in order to add your name. Thank you. * When the list reaches 500th person, please Email to:   skfcardart@hotmail.com 1. Susan Keh - Los Angeles, CA 2. Leor Mendel - Los Angeles, CA 3. Cat Bartik-Sweeney - West Toluca Lake, CA 4. Mary Donohue - Burbank, CA 5. Patti Thompson - Las Vegas, Nevada 6. Kaci Thompson - Las Vegas, Nevada 7. Rita Hussey - Burbank, California 8. Pilar Tavera-Burbank, California 9. Beth Agresto Atlantic Highlands N.J. (2 Brothers NYFD) 10.Frank Mangiaracina Staten Island , NY 11. Lisa Schantz, Queens,NY 12. Elena Olaru, Queens, NY 13. Melanie Ricci, New York, NY 14. Patricia Hickey, New York, NY 15. Cynthia Van Sluytman, New York, NY 16. Chris Berkley, New York, NY 17. Dawn Kearney, Nanuet, NY 18. Maureen McKenna, Nanuet, NY 19. Tracey Armstrong, Brooklyn, NY 20. Jessica-Lauren C. Wickiewicz, Ballston Spa, NY 21. Cathy D'Angelo, Mineola, New York 22. Marnie Weidenfel d, NY, New York 23. Jaimee Fleischman New York, NY 24. Michele Sheckman - New York, NY 25. Jody Schwartz - New York, NY 26. Danya Gerstein- New York, NY 27. Jackie Goldstein - New York, NY 28. Shaun Jacobson - New York City, NY 29. Iris Lapas - McLean, VA 30. Daniela DiMaggio - Emerson, NJ 31. Larissa Pelc - Fair Lawn, NJ 32. Jennifer K. Siegel - Brooklyn, NY 33. John McNamara (FDNY) - Brooklyn,NY 34. Sharon Cortese- Staten Island, NY 35. Frank Cortese -Staten Island, NY 36. Kimberly Heaney -Brooklyn, NY 37. Jessica Roth stein, New York City, NY 38. Amy Johnson, New York, NY 39. Melissa Moyer, Hartford, CT 40. Tania Deist, Norwalk, CT 41. Kerry Franco, Cos Cob, CT 42. Jonette Raus Stamford, CT 43. Tina Raus Stamford, CT 44. Deanna Tedesco Stamford, CT 45. Jennifer Stebbins Stamford, CT 46. Stephanie Stebbins, Mohegan Lake, NY 47. Sue K. Enos, Brewster, NY 48. Susan E. Becker; Wappingers Falls, NY (Wappingers FD Co.1 ~ FF#147) 49. Shane W. Shifflett,Sr. (firefighter-tech) 50. Brandi Cook, Fayetteville, PA 51. Shawn Locke, Fayetteville, PA 52. John P. Heck, Lords Valley, PA (Firefighter/EMT Hemlock Farms Fire   and Rescue Co.) 53. Joseph J. Heck, D.O., Henderson, NV (EMS Medical Director, Clark   County Health District) 54. Jason J. Kepp, Washington DC 55. William Baxt, M.D. University of Pennsylvania Chair Emergency   Medicine Phil., PA 56. Kevin Ross Hardy, Wilmington, DE 57. Sarah Batcheler, Philadelphia, PA 58.  Richard King, Philadelphia, PA 59. Mary King-Maxey, Mechanicsburg, PA 60. Margaret E Calnon, Palmyra, PA

I have an obit for a Luther Lee-Edward Payne, resident of CA. He was born in Weleetka, OK. Please email if interested or if anyone can claim this Payne. Karen Merced, CA