Dear List & Administrator, I did not intentionally send the e-mail you received with a virus. It was my first virus also. My computer was infected with a virus called W32/Badtrans@MM yesterday evening when I opened an e-mail from a trusted genealogy correspondent that had previously sent attachments with no problems. Of course, it was blank, but the damage was done by then and it apparently sent e-mail to anyone's e-mail that was still in my in-box. You should update your virus scan files and scan your entire system. I'm really sorry about this. You can find info on the virus at http://vil.mcafee.com. Again, I am so sorry that others were infected, too. If it hadn't been for my daughter's Internet provider alerting me that they had stopped an infected e-mail to her, I still wouldn't know I had the virus. I had not sent an e-mail to her or anyone else yesterday. I have the virus cleaned off my computer, but my VirusScan didn't detect it until I updated the DAT files and search engine. Pat Shoemaker pshoemaker@worldnet.att.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Paynevj@aol.com To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 2:10 PM Subject: Virus Alert - Payne List Dear Listers & List Administrator, FYI I received my first virus from a person by the name of Shoemaker. The subject line was Re: Joseph Payne and was directly linked to emails on this list. While I know better, I opened it thinking it was pertinent Payne information, however it appears that the virus was sent intentionally. Just thought I would alert the Administrator and listers that this has occurred. Regards, Virginia

This article is a bit lengthy, but is very interesting. It's also nearly two years old and the prices mentioned have obviously come down considerably, at least in our project's case (which may be in part to BYU funding). Patrick http://www.ancestry.com/library/view/ancmag/1480.asp Ancestry Magazine 1/1/2000 - Archive January/February 2000 vol. 18, no.1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Genetic Codes Unraveled: New Clues to Human History – Candace L. Doriott EDITOR'S NOTE: See also "Human Genome Project Goals" and "Another Reason to Dig Up Your Ancestor." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Tracing a family tree back beyond a few centuries is a challenge genealogists. Many depend on secondary sources to expand their pedigree into the past, bemoaning the difficulty of finding primary records to prove their lineage. Some have downloaded files from online databases or exchanged data with an alleged distant relative in order to extend their genealogy by another generation or two, despite not knowing what sources were used. The desire to connect to early ancestors prompts less sophisticated individuals to believe mythical genealogies linking them with the Emperor Constantine or even the Biblical Noah. Knowledgeable genealogists empathize with the desire, but cringe at the naiveté of anyone thinking they could prove a link to ancient people. So, needless to say, it was astonishing in 1997 to read news reports about a British schoolteacher’s familial connection to the so-called Cheddar Man. British filmmakers were working on a documentary in 1997 about the skeleton of a prehistoric man found in a cave in Cheddar Gorge in southwest Britain. Researchers at Oxford University were asked to conduct genetic tests to compare DNA from this Stone Age human with that of modern residents of the area. Cheek swabs for DNA samples were taken from one classroom of students and their teacher at the school in a community near where the skeleton was found. Incredibly, when testing was complete, they had found a familial match between the 9,000-year-old skeleton and the history teacher, Adrian Targett.1 Many papers misreported the connection, describing the prehistoric man as a direct ancestor to the modern day teacher. However, the tests compared mitochondrial DNA, which is passed to children from mothers, not fathers. Thus, what the test actually indicated was that the prehistoric man and the modern schoolteacher descended from the same female ancestor. In kinship terms, they are some degree of cousin approximately 315 times removed! In the News Genealogy is not usually the stuff of newspaper headlines. In recent years, however, reports of genealogical discoveries and controversies ranging from Cheddar Man to Kenewick Man to the Romanovs to the Jefferson-Hemings tests have appeared as front-page stories in major news publications. (See Mark Howells’ article, “Double Helix Genealogy,” p. 52) What made these stories newsworthy was not traditional research and documentation of a pedigree based on accepted genealogical proofs. These stories were news because the evidence was in the DNA. Until recently, most genealogists wouldn’t think of science as relevant to research on family trees. But anyone holding that view should have changed it dramatically after the news reports on the Jefferson-Hemings case. Although there are criticisms about the process used, the DNA testing of the Y chromosome appears to corroborate a long-standing oral history that Thomas Jefferson fathered at least one child by his slave, Sally Hemings. Reports of DNA tests done for the express purpose of confirming or ruling out a genealogical relationship are exciting. Prior to Jefferson-Hemings, the primary use of DNA testing was for contested paternity cases, or for research and diagnosis of hereditary disorders. A review of some history and definitions may be beneficial before we discuss the potential promises and pitfalls genetic research holds for genealogy. The Hunt for Genes Attempts to manipulate genes has a long history, including some of the most tragic events of the twentieth century. The eugenics movement in the United States began in the early 1900s and resulted in forced sterilization of over 60,000 people to prevent them from passing on “undesirable” family traits. Families with criminal histories or those judged to be “morons” were targeted, but sometimes their only defect was poverty. The Nazi attempt to breed the “perfect race” and eliminate those they considered impure shocked Americans, and had a chilling effect on the popularity of the eugenics movement.2 Meanwhile, scientists engaged in research on plants and fruit flies made progress in furthering their knowledge of genes and DNA. Research has proven that the blueprint for life is contained in the chromosomes of each plant or animal. For humans, there are twenty-three chromosome pairs, each composed of a double strand of coiled DNA. Genes are situated at various locations along the long strands of DNA and between the genes are stretches of DNA material that for some time did not appear to have any function. However, as research on human DNA progressed, differences in the makeup of these seemingly empty stretches proved valuable in the search to locate genes. Although nobody knows how many human genes there are, it is estimated we have close to 100,000. Concern about hereditary disorders prompted interest in studying human DNA. But earlier efforts to discover the genes responsible for devastating disorders such as Huntington’s disease or hemochromatosis had met with failure. Research using Mormon genealogies coupled with biochemical discoveries led to the identification of genetic markers that made locating and mapping human genes significantly easier. These markers are short sections of DNA where the arrangement of molecules cause the sections to take on a color in reaction to a specific chemical. Using a variety of chemicals brings out a variety of different colored markers. Mutations or changes in DNA may result in the deletion of some marker segments and the addition of new ones, and the mutations are passed on to the person’s descendants. Hereditary diseases are due to changes in a segment of DNA that contains a gene. Researchers used DNA markers to help them detect differences among those who inherited a disorder with those who did not. The gene for Huntington’s disease was discovered in 1983 and in the years that followed, scientists identified genes implicated in other hereditary disorders. Of course, pedigree and descendancy charts were crucial elements in these endeavors.3 Locating the gene involved in a hereditary disorder is a first step to understanding how the gene affects health and functioning. But determining the specific gene defect requires additional efforts. Because of this, scientists began discussing a proposal to map the entire human genome. This would simplify research on specific disorders, and prevent scientists from wasting valuable time mapping sections of the genome that were already mapped. The Human Genome Organization was founded in 1989 by an international group of genetic researchers. In 1990 the National Institute of Health and the Department of Energy agreed to coordinate efforts by establishing the Human Genome Project. The Project was expected to take fifteen years, but advancements in procedures have reduced the estimate to thirteen years.4 DNA & Genetic Research Up to now this discussion has focused on nuclear DNA. This genetic material exists in the nucleus or center of each cell. A second type of DNA exists inside each cell but lies outside the nucleus. These are short strands of DNA called mitochondria. A child receives half of his or her nuclear DNA from the mother and the other half from the father, but the mitochondrial DNA comes only from the mother. This inheritance pattern means that, except for random mutations, mitochondria passed from mother to children are exact replicas through the generations. Mitochondria are considerably shorter and less complicated than nuclear DNA, and thus are easier to analyze and use as a tool for ancestral research. Mitochondrial DNA (abbreviated as mtDNA) became part of the vernacular with the announcement that researchers had used it to determine the theoretical mother of us all. By comparing mtDNA of sample populations from each continent, and estimating the rate of mutations, they calculated that this prehistoric female, dubbed Eve, had lived in Africa about 200,000 years ago. Although the announcement was met by skepticism and created significant controversy, it opened up a world of possibilities for paleoanthropology and research on migration patterns.5 As work progressed on mapping the genome, some researchers focused on the Y chromosome. Just as mtDNA can be used to trace a direct female line, the direct male line can be traced using the Y chromosome, passed from father to son. This, of course, is the basis of paternity testing. Although researchers discovered that Y chromosomes may change slightly from generation to generation, there is a section of the Y chromosome that remains intact, without changes except for mutations. Researchers now had a tool to trace male lineages and migration patterns. Confirming Oral Histories As a child sitting around listening to grown-ups talk during family get-togethers, you probably heard stories of where grandparents or great grandparents originally came from. In some families, stories of migration may be part of a larger oral history that encompasses the entire ethnic community. For years, anthropologists studying the peoples of Hawaii and Polynesia heard tales of sea travel between these far away islands and stories of ancestors from distant isles. Anthropologists discounted the tales as being too fanciful because they couldn’t imagine ancient peoples with the skills to travel great distances across the Pacific Ocean. DNA testing has since proved this oral history was based on reality. Hawaiians share a close common genetic lineage with the peoples of Polynesia.6 On a familial level, DNA research is providing support for a Jewish tradition which holds that priests are descendants of Aaron, the brother of Moses. Therefore, priesthood in the Jewish community is based on heredity, passing the line of authority from father to son. In both Ashkenazi and Sephardic branches of Judaism, the family name Cohen or Kohen means priest. Researchers found markers on the Y chromosome of Cohens from Israel, Britain, and North America that are not found on the Y chromosome of other Jews. Similar markers among Cohens indicate a shared male ancestor.7 The Lemba tribe of South Africa provides another example of oral history doubted by outsiders but proved by DNA research. Many traditions of the Lemba are similar to those of Jewish communities. Their oral history described ancestors from the north who were priests, metalworkers, and traders. They arrived in Africa after crossing a vast expanse of water. DNA testing of Y chromosomes has confirmed their Semitic origins, with the Bantu group of Lemba possessing the same markers as the Cohens.8 In British Columbia, native peoples of the Champagne-Aishihik First Nations have oral histories that tell of trade routes crossing glaciers to reach coastal areas on the Pacific. In August of 1999, the remains of an ancient hunter were found frozen in a glacier. Radiocarbon dating of the garments he wore reveals they were created in the early 1400s. Scientists and Native Americans in Canada are working together on a plan of research for this frozen 550-year-old man. Within the next year, members of the Champagne-Aishihik First Nations hope to learn whether they share a family connection with this unknown hunter.9 Genetic Roots Interest in genealogy got a boost in the United States when Alex Haley’s Roots was broadcast on television. Despite questions about veracity and plagiarism, Haley’s story raised the profile of genealogy. Haley dreamed of tracing his roots back to Africa, but could only speculate on where his line originated. Genealogist’s working on Afro-American lines still face special challenges in researching their family trees. While European and Asian Americans usually know the country(s) their forebears emigrated from, the descendants of slaves forcibly brought from Africa rarely have information on the country of origin. The United States is often called a melting pot, comprised of people who immigrated from various nations. Over the years, the genes of these diverse peoples have been mixed. Sometimes family traditions or genealogical research has identified the variety of ancestral origins. In other families, the history may be shrouded due to family separations, lack of interest, or family secrets long forgotten. Research in Ethiopia provides an example of using a variety of genetic markers to determine the multiplicity of ethnic ancestors. Researchers used both mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome patterns to identify ancestral origins. In earlier times, Ethiopia was at the center of several trade routes, with diverse peoples passing through or settling among the native population. Many of these visitors left their mark, as evidenced in the genes of modern Ethiopians.10 A Shared Heritage Populations that have remained relatively isolated, with few immigrants to broaden the genetic pool are termed homogeneous. People in homogeneous societies have very similar DNA, so random mutations that differentiate family groups are easier to find and trace. Populations that are isolated genetically tend to experience a unique set of hereditary disorders that attracts researchers. Genetics used in the study of linguistic groups and patterns of migration have identified homogeneous populations in Europe, including Fins and Basque. The earliest genetic studies were conducted by the U.S. Department of Energy due to the devastation wrought by atomic bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima in Japan. U.S. and Japanese researchers searched for possible mutations caused by exposure to radiation. In the process, it was discovered that people in each city had inherited unusual differences in DNA that distinguished residents of one city from the other. Due to Japan’s isolation, neither city had many immigrants to contribute to the gene pool. The variance in DNA was traced back to different founding populations of warring clans 8,000 years ago.11 One of the most interesting genealogical stories to come out of the Human Genome Project is the history of Iceland. Iceland was founded by Vikings in 874 AD. After an early influx of Irish genes from women captured to be wives for the Vikings who settled the western coast of Iceland, the population remained genetically isolated. Heroic tales recorded in those ancient times, called the Icelandic Sagas, include extensive genealogies of the early settlers. Church records of births and deaths were first recorded in 1000 A.D. With this history, many residents can trace their family trees back to these early times.12 As mentioned earlier, DNA similarity among homogeneous populations simplifies research because small differences stand out. To facilitate research on hereditary disorders, a company called DeCode created a database of Icelandic genealogies that begins in 900 A.D. With government authorization and the approval of the majority of Icelanders, DeCode is collecting blood samples from everyone in the population willing to participate in the creation of a DNA database.13 Genealogical Genetics Mapping the human genome to facilitate research on hereditary disorders, and using DNA to determine where and when our species evolved, and thereby study the migration and connections between ancient populations is extremely important work. However, many genealogists will only take an avid interest in genetics if it can help them research their own family tree. The rise of the computer and the Internet has been a mixed blessing for genealogists. Unfortunately, many genealogists contribute to the Internet’s biggest genealogical problem by disseminating erroneous genealogical data that are impossible to track down and correct. Now, the rise of genetics may finally give us a tool to validate the accuracy of careful research and expose bogus ancestral lines. Genetic testing will be an important aid for researchers with common names in helping determine which family to pursue. Testing may corroborate genealogical research on disputed lines. It may also assist genealogists who have been frustrated by situations where long-held family secrets obscured the identity or ethnicity of an ancestor. However, genealogists who have been intent on collecting hundreds of undocumented relatives to expand their family tree will likely face the collapse of their collection, as branches have to be excised from their tree. Advancements made as a result of the Human Genome Project will provide a variety of ways to employ DNA checks of family lines. Mitochondrial DNA tests for direct maternal lines, while the Y chromosome can determine the paternal line. Gene mutation and defects is one way to prove descendancy for other lines. Plus there are the genetic markers that occur in sections of non-functioning DNA between the genes. Comparing the pattern of these markers in selected segments of DNA provides another way to test for relatedness and ancestry. In addition to direct DNA testing, researchers will discover additional indirect means, such as blood chemistry, that correlate with genetic patterns but are cheaper and more available. Not There Yet Despite the Jefferson-Hemings test, use of DNA to investigate family lines is still in the future for most genealogists. The first time I wrote about genetics in Genealogical Computing, several readers wondered how they could get DNA testing done. Unfortunately, genetic testing is still very expensive (almost $500 for paternity testing and almost $1,000 for DNA sibling tests) and not readily available for purely genealogical purposes. Researchers may be familiar with the Umbilical Lines Project directed by Thomas Roderick at the Center for Human Genetics in Bar Harbour, Maine. Aside from a Web page, Roderick gave presentations on the Project at genealogical conferences. The goal of the Project was to collect genealogies and blood samples to find people whose mtDNA might identify a shared ancestor in the early 1800s or before. Unfortunately, Roderick retired from the Center for Human Genetics and, without funding, the Project has been put on hold.14 Another project which uses the Y chromosome to research the Savin male lineage is being conducted in Great Britain. Alan Savin, a genealogist who maintains the database for the one-name Savin study, proposed the project to scientists at University College in 1997. Funding is through the College and the Institute of Heraldic and Genealogical Studies. To date, the project is proceeding and preliminary results have been shared with participants in the study.15 Be Prepared Although genetic testing is not assessible to most genealogists, it doesn’t mean you should not be prepared, according to Envirolutions, Inc. This company recognizes the market potential of genealogists for DNA tests. Their Web site includes this pitch for their DNA Archive Kit: “DNA information will become increasingly valuable to genealogists who want firm proof of ancestral relationships. Preserve your DNA with DNA-Arc as an heirloom for future generations right along with your photos, scrap books, hair clippings, and other family momentos.” Now we have the means to obtain and conserve DNA samples of living relatives. However, the question not yet answered is how to get samples from the dead. On a less ghoulish note, genealogists should keep informed of scientific advancements that will someday affect us. If you haven’t already done so, it’s time to add new bookmarks to your Web browser, and time to browse a different kind of periodical at the bookstore. General interest science magazines, such as Discover and Scientific American, often include news about genetic research written for the non-professional. American Scientist and Science Spectra are geared toward a more sophisticated readership. If you are up to technical reading, publications such as Nature, the Journal of Human Genetics and Science feature peer reviewed reports on the latest research. Many of these publications post articles on the Web. It’s not just individual genealogists that have to prepare. Organizations that base membership on proof of pedigree should plan for the inevitable challenges of genetic science. DNA testing will uncover more than shoddy research. How will the organization handle genealogically-proven but biologically-incorrect lineages? If document trails do not exist, will DNA evidence be accepted as proof of descendancy? The Jefferson-Hemings test was the first shot across the bow of lineage societies and incautious genealogists. Research on human genetics will ensure that more will follow, as the new science alters the practice of genealogy. Notes 1Shanti Menon, “Son of Cheddar Man,” Discover, January 1998, 33; Sue Leeman, “Science finds man's great, great, great, great...” Associated Press, http://ardmoreite.com/stories/030997/news/news21.html [11/14/99]; Chris Mihill, “Modern man finds ancestor 9,000 years old,” Electronic Mail&Guardian, March 11, 1997, www.mg.co.za/mg/news/97mar1/10mar-family.html [11/14/99]; Daily Review, “DNA links cave man to British teacher,” Los Angeles Times, March 1997. 2Dave Manney, "Sterilization," HOUR Detroit, September 1999, 68-74; Steve Jones, The Language of Genes (New York: Doubleday, Anchor Press, 1994; originally published in the United Kingdom by HarperCollins, 1993), 18-21. 3Jerry E. Bishop & Michael Waldholz, Genome, updated ed. (San Jose: iUniverse.com, toExcel, 1999). 4Bishop & Waldholz, Genome; The Human Genome Organization, modified 03-Nov-99, www.gene.ucl.ac.uk/hugo/ [11/14/99]; Human Genome Project Information, modified November 12, 1999, www.ornl.gov/TechResources/Human_Genome/home.html [11/14/99]. 5Tabitha M. Powledge and Mark Rose, “The Great DNA Hunt,” Archaeology (Sept/Oct 1996). 6Adam Goodheart, “Mapping the Past,” Civilization (Mar/Apr 1996), 43; History, Tahiti Explorer, n.d., www.tahiti-explorer.com/index.html [11/15/99]; Dennis Kawaharada, “The Settlement of Polynesia,” Part 1, The Polynesian Voyaging Society, 29 January 1996, http://leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu/org/pvs/migrationspart1.html [11/15/99]. 7Tim Radford, “Cohens in a (gene) class of their own,” Electronic Mail&Guardian, 14 January 1997, www.mg.co.za/mg/news/97jan1/14jan-gene.html [11/17/1999]; Neil Bradman and Mark Thomas, “Why Y? The Y Chromosome In The Study Of Human Evolution, Migration And Prehistory,” Science Spectra, no. 14 (1998), www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/ScienceSpectra-pages/SciSpect-14-98.html [11/17/1999]. This is a good overall explanation of X Y chromosome research including info on the Lemba and the Cohen. 8Bradman and Thomas, “Why Y? The Y Chromosome In The Study Of Human Evolution, Migration And Prehistory”; Hillary Mayell, “DNA Evidence Supports African Tribe's Jewish Connection,” National Geographic, 24 June 1999, www.ngnews.com/news/1999/06/062599/lembamen_3775.asp [11/20/1999]. 9David D. Kuehn, “Frozen in Time,” Discovering Archaeology, November/December 1999, 78-81; James Brooke, “Lost Worlds Rediscovered as Canadian Glaciers Melt,” New York Times On The Web, 5 October 1999, www.nytimes.com/library/national/science/100599sci-archeology-canada.htm [11/20/1999]. 10Giuseppe Passarino and others, “Different Genetic Components in the Ethiopian Population, Identified by mtDNA and Y-Chromosome Polymorphisms,” American Journal of Human Genetics, 62 (1998):420-434, electronically published 13 February 1998, www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues /v62n2/970077/970077.text.html#crf53 [11/06/99]. 11Jones, The Language of Genes, 39. 12Robert Kunzig, “Blood of the Vikings,” Discover, December 1998; Zina Moukheiber, “Genes for Sale,” Forbes Magazine, 27 July 1998, www.forbes.com/forbes/98/0727/6202203a.htm [11/19/1999]; Transcripts (Show 803), “Nordic Sagas: Iceland Genes,” Scientific American Frontiers, 1997-1998, www.pbs.org/saf/8_resources/83_transcript_803.html [11/12/1999]. 13Moukheiber, “Genes for Sale.” 14Umbilical Line Project, info posted by FEEFHS, 21 March 1996, http://feefhs.org/misc/frg-chg.html [11/06/1999]. 15Alan Savin, The D.N.A. Detective, updated 9 May 1999, www.savin.org/dna/ [11/21/1999]; Alan Savin, “Y Chromosome Project Synopsis,” March 1998, www.savin.org/dna/y-chromosome-project.html [11/21/1999]. Candace L. Doriott, Bits & Bytes columnist for Ancestry’s Genealogical Computing, is a registered nurse. Since 1993, Doriott has explored current issues and the evolving technology that shapes the future of family history research.

Dear Listers & List Administrator, FYI I received my first virus from a person by the name of Shoemaker. The subject line was Re: Joseph Payne and was directly linked to emails on this list. While I know better, I opened it thinking it was pertinent Payne information, however it appears that the virus was sent intentionally. Just thought I would alert the Administrator and listers that this has occurred. Regards, Virginia

----- Original Message ----- From: <PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <PAYNE-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 10:01 AM Subject: PAYNE-D Digest V01 #131 I want to know if I fit into your plan. Here is what I have as of now. Dale T Payne 2Aug 1930 Des Moines Co.,Iowa Arthur Wick Payne 24 May 1895 Henry Co.,Iowa Elisha Morgan Payne 30 Dec.1845 Henry Co.,Iowa Henry Payne 2 Aug 1783 Berkeley Co.,Va. Henry Payne 5 Mar 1756 York Co., Pa. George Payne 4 Oct. 1728 Chester,Pa. Josiah Payne 1690 England Josiah Payne 29 Sept 1662 St. Martins L,England John Payne 2 Feb. 1639/40 Medbourne L,England Michael Payne 1614 Medbourne L,England Thanks for all the info. Dale ( Tom ) Payne puzzles@enetis.net

I'm male descendant of Susannah (Payne) Slinker, the daughter of Joseph Payne of Bedford Co., VA. She was wife of Frederick Slinker. Would that be qualification for DNA testing? What's involved. Wayne Witt Bates

Duncan PAYNE b Mar 1853 MO; d after 1907; married Elizabeth Epley b Nov 1858 MO; had children: James R. PAYNE b Oct 1884 MO; Mary E. PAYNE b May 1886-1891MO d 1966 Lodi, Wayne, MO, married Thomas W. ROACH (1885-1963); Matilda E. PAYNE b Aug 1889 MO; Nathaniel G. PAYNE b Dec 1894; Lavina PAYNE b Feb 1896 MO. Duncan was AKA Nelson Payne, A.N. Payne, and "Uncle Dunk". We would like to know the names of the parents of Duncan Payne and will share information. Kathie Donahue

I received a virus on this list from someone called Joanna using the above subject heading. 'Paynes in Ontario'. It was no problem as Norton jumped on it but the person concerned might like to know. I printed the email to identify the email address but it just had Joanna. regards, Shane London Sydney, Australia

This is a reply to Phyllis Payne Turner and Virginia Payne, regarding Joseph and Pheobe Payne, of Bedford County, VA. I am a direct descendant of Joesph and Phoebe through their son James Payne who was married Sarah Anderson. My information comes from the PDA book by Gerald Wilson. There was a direct male descendant from this family named Dale Payne, living in Fayetteville, West Virginia. It's possible he is a descendant of Braddock Payne who married Sarah Craig. Braddock was the brother of my ggg-grandmother Lucy Payne Webb. I don't know if he subscribes to this list or not. It would be nice to know if this Payne family has ties to any of the other Paynes of Virginia. My grandfather's aunts claimed that we were related to Dolley Payne Madison. Two of them belonged to the DAR. I have been trying for years to get the information they submitted for membership. A cousin in Florida has a copy, but when I wrote she did not respond. Joseph is in the DAR Patriots Index. He gave 400 lbs of beef to the Continental Army. In return he was given approx. 400 acres. It would be nice if there are any male Payne's who are descendants of Joseph and Phoebe, who would be willing to participate. If my surname was Payne I would. Last year the Mumma/Moomaw family did DNA testing with very interesting results (I am a descendant of Leonard and Juliana Mumma). Josh D. Dean

Hi everyone, My name is Linda Michals-Lapinski, my maiden name was Payne. I am new to this list. I have been researching the Payne's since March of this year and am against a brick wall. This is what I have so far: Myself: Linda Payne, born 7/29/1955 Father: Keith H. Payne, b. 2/28/1933, Chicago, IL, d. 8/26/2000, Ispheming, MI Grandfather: Joseph H. Payne, b. 12/30/1902, Many, LA, d. 5/27/1966, Carthage, TX Gr. Grandfather: Jack M. Payne, b. 10/1861, Texas,(per 1900 census) d. 4/22/1940, Shreveport,LA Of course, I have the spouses and children for these men, but did not want to bore everyone! I know that Jack and his wife Alice left Many, LA around 1909 and moved to Palestine, TX. There they had 3 children that I know of. A total of 11 children were born to Jack and Alice. It is rumored he worked for the railroad in Palestine, do not the RR line, however, since he died in 1940, The Railroad Pension Board cannot help me, he would not have drawn a pension. I could not find him in the 1910 or 1920 Palestine, TX census either. Which is odd since he had at least 3 children there from 1909-1915. I'm thinking of looking again! Since the state of Louisiana did not keep death records until 1942, I'm stuck there also. No known military service either. I have looked and searched with all the search engines, genforums, etc. Without knowing his parent's names, it's been very frustrating. There are no living children of this marriage left. I only have a few aunts left who know very little, plus some scattered cousins who I can't find either. So, I am hopeful this posting will produce some results amongst the "Paynes" who subscribe. Thank you

Patrick, I am very iliterate on such scientific knowledge and testing, though I am trying to understand the basics. Do I understand correctly that the only ones eligible are the direct Payne lines---females not included? How can I understand, with my very limited knowledge---the reason why that women can't show the bloodlines too? I know this is showing my health and science ignorance!<grin> Mamie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patrick Payne" <ppayne1203@earthlink.net> To: <PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:59 PM Subject: Re: DNA testing. > This was an excellent question, so I'm posting to the list. > > If we have participants with a KNOWN genealogical descent from the family > of Thomas Paine and Mary Snow, the test can determine if your Ycs (DNA) > matches, in which case you can be assured that you shared a common > ancestor. The test will also make a determination on how many generations > separate you from that common ancestor. With that information, we can turn > to genealogical research to determine who that common ancestor was- if that > common ancestor is known to us. While we do not have the DNA of Thomas > Paine, he left descendants that carry his Y-chromosome- AND his male > ancestors (father, grandfather, gr-grandfather- gr-gr-gr- grandfather, > etc.), brothers and children all carry the same Y-chromosome as well. This > is why it is so important to have as much participation as possible from > known descendants of these early Payne lines. The more participants we > have, the more likely it will be that we will obtain a good profile on that > line. One is good, but two or more is much better because comparisons can > be made between them. In this case, we don't need DNA from Thomas Paine, > because his descendants carry it with them. If there are no descendants of > Thomas, we could still use the DNA of his brothers or uncles descendants > who would also carry the DNA of Thomas. > > Now for an example. Let's say that you believe you have a connection with > the family of Thomas Paine of Eastham and you take the test along with a > known descendant. Also participating are several other lines of the Payne > family from various places, such as Virginia, Maryland, England, etc. The > results come back showing that in all 14 Ycs markers tested, you match the > known descendant. This tells you that you are, in fact, a descendant of > Thomas Paine of Eastham. It does not tell you exactly how, but at least you > know. The test results will, however, indicate the nearest common ancestor > between you. Say it is 7 generations. We can then look at the genealogy of > the known descendant (or what is known of the family in general) to trace > back 7 generations in the family. If that leaves you with only one male in > that generation, you would have very good reason to look to that individual > as your ancestor. Even if there were multiple males born in that > generation, you would have narrowed your search possibilities considerably. > How is this common ancestor determined? Well, it has to do with small > changes in the Y-chromosome signature over time. My Y-chromosome, for > example, might be slightly different from my brothers and I will pass this > difference on to my children, and to their children, etc. Since the change > originated with me, and does not show up further up the line, it singles me > out in the generation. If my great-grandson decides to check his DNA, he > will find that the difference in his Y-chromosome ends with me. Although it > will still match my father, and my 9th gr-grandfather, that slight change > will provide him with the knowledge that he descends from me, not my brother. > > > There are some good links on my web site that might explain this better, > but that is the crux of it. > > Continuing with the above example though, let's say that one of the other > participants also has the same markers as you and the other participant, > yet his family was from the Virginia line. The same situation applies. > We'll know that somewhere along the line, all three of you shared a common > ancestor. In this case, it may be 10 generations distant. So we do the same > calculation by tracing the family line back 10 generations... > > Where no match occurs, we can conclude these were separate and unrelated > lines. > > The great thing about this, whether there are matches or not, is that it > will establish signatures for each line so that any one in the future who > wishes to take the same test as we did can do so and determine which line > they descend from. We are creating our own record that is just as valuable > as any paper record- and in cases where the trail has grown cold, it can be > invaluable to them. > > I hope this helped to explain things a little better. If you would still > like to know more, or you just don't trust my knowledge of genetics (!), I > highly recommend that you take a look at some of the links from my page at > http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne 1203, or I can always forward your > questions on to my contact at Relative Genetics. > > Regards, > > Patrick > > At 10:08 AM 11/27/01 -0500, you wrote: > >For Patrick: > >I, Forrest R. Paine, have volunteered to participate in this test. > Perhaps I > >have missed something or NOT understood completely WHAT this test is going > to > >prove. My question is: How will it be determined that "MY" DNA matches that > >of - - say Thomas Paine, husband of Mary Snow, or one of his ancestors? > >I can understand how, because of our DNA it can be determined that the > >participants are related. But does BYU have the DNA of (in this example) > >Thomas Paine mentioned above? If not, how will the correlation be made? > >OR, are we merely going to prove that all the participants are related BUT > >not necessarily to a particular individual in the past. > > Wondering . . > > > > > >Forrest R. Paine > >201 Meadow Lane > >Schertz, Texas 78154-2418 > >(210) 659-8351 > >MeGoToo@aol.com > > >

This was an excellent question, so I'm posting to the list. If we have participants with a KNOWN genealogical descent from the family of Thomas Paine and Mary Snow, the test can determine if your Ycs (DNA) matches, in which case you can be assured that you shared a common ancestor. The test will also make a determination on how many generations separate you from that common ancestor. With that information, we can turn to genealogical research to determine who that common ancestor was- if that common ancestor is known to us. While we do not have the DNA of Thomas Paine, he left descendants that carry his Y-chromosome- AND his male ancestors (father, grandfather, gr-grandfather- gr-gr-gr- grandfather, etc.), brothers and children all carry the same Y-chromosome as well. This is why it is so important to have as much participation as possible from known descendants of these early Payne lines. The more participants we have, the more likely it will be that we will obtain a good profile on that line. One is good, but two or more is much better because comparisons can be made between them. In this case, we don't need DNA from Thomas Paine, because his descendants carry it with them. If there are no descendants of Thomas, we could still use the DNA of his brothers or uncles descendants who would also carry the DNA of Thomas. Now for an example. Let's say that you believe you have a connection with the family of Thomas Paine of Eastham and you take the test along with a known descendant. Also participating are several other lines of the Payne family from various places, such as Virginia, Maryland, England, etc. The results come back showing that in all 14 Ycs markers tested, you match the known descendant. This tells you that you are, in fact, a descendant of Thomas Paine of Eastham. It does not tell you exactly how, but at least you know. The test results will, however, indicate the nearest common ancestor between you. Say it is 7 generations. We can then look at the genealogy of the known descendant (or what is known of the family in general) to trace back 7 generations in the family. If that leaves you with only one male in that generation, you would have very good reason to look to that individual as your ancestor. Even if there were multiple males born in that generation, you would have narrowed your search possibilities considerably. How is this common ancestor determined? Well, it has to do with small changes in the Y-chromosome signature over time. My Y-chromosome, for example, might be slightly different from my brothers and I will pass this difference on to my children, and to their children, etc. Since the change originated with me, and does not show up further up the line, it singles me out in the generation. If my great-grandson decides to check his DNA, he will find that the difference in his Y-chromosome ends with me. Although it will still match my father, and my 9th gr-grandfather, that slight change will provide him with the knowledge that he descends from me, not my brother. There are some good links on my web site that might explain this better, but that is the crux of it. Continuing with the above example though, let's say that one of the other participants also has the same markers as you and the other participant, yet his family was from the Virginia line. The same situation applies. We'll know that somewhere along the line, all three of you shared a common ancestor. In this case, it may be 10 generations distant. So we do the same calculation by tracing the family line back 10 generations... Where no match occurs, we can conclude these were separate and unrelated lines. The great thing about this, whether there are matches or not, is that it will establish signatures for each line so that any one in the future who wishes to take the same test as we did can do so and determine which line they descend from. We are creating our own record that is just as valuable as any paper record- and in cases where the trail has grown cold, it can be invaluable to them. I hope this helped to explain things a little better. If you would still like to know more, or you just don't trust my knowledge of genetics (!), I highly recommend that you take a look at some of the links from my page at http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne 1203, or I can always forward your questions on to my contact at Relative Genetics. Regards, Patrick At 10:08 AM 11/27/01 -0500, you wrote: >For Patrick: >I, Forrest R. Paine, have volunteered to participate in this test. Perhaps I >have missed something or NOT understood completely WHAT this test is going to >prove. My question is: How will it be determined that "MY" DNA matches that >of - - say Thomas Paine, husband of Mary Snow, or one of his ancestors? >I can understand how, because of our DNA it can be determined that the >participants are related. But does BYU have the DNA of (in this example) >Thomas Paine mentioned above? If not, how will the correlation be made? >OR, are we merely going to prove that all the participants are related BUT >not necessarily to a particular individual in the past. > Wondering . . > > >Forrest R. Paine >201 Meadow Lane >Schertz, Texas 78154-2418 >(210) 659-8351 >MeGoToo@aol.com >

Phyllis, I have missed part of the email string on the DNA testing as I wasn't interested until you mentioned this line. I believe I am related to this line but can't prove it. If you have done research, I was wondering if you have heard of a Silas Payne, born abt. 1820 in Virginia. Lived in Franklin/Roanoke Co, Va. I can't determine who his father/mother are but we believe him to be related to Isham Payne, a descendent of the Joseph Payne line. Also, I was wondering if there was a way to link our family through this DNA project if Joseph Payne descendents participated. Any thoughts or comments? Thanks. Virginia Payne

For Patrick: I, Forrest R. Paine, have volunteered to participate in this test. Perhaps I have missed something or NOT understood completely WHAT this test is going to prove. My question is: How will it be determined that "MY" DNA matches that of - - say Thomas Paine, husband of Mary Snow, or one of his ancestors? I can understand how, because of our DNA it can be determined that the participants are related. But does BYU have the DNA of (in this example) Thomas Paine mentioned above? If not, how will the correlation be made? OR, are we merely going to prove that all the participants are related BUT not necessarily to a particular individual in the past. Wondering . . Forrest R. Paine 201 Meadow Lane Schertz, Texas 78154-2418 (210) 659-8351 MeGoToo@aol.com

Do you know if anyone that is a descendant of Joseph and Phoboe Payne of Virginia is planning to participate in this genetics testing? Do you think they would share the results of the test with others( this is one time that I wish I had been born a boy) From what I have read it is difficult to determine if this branch of Paynes were related to the more prominent Paynes of Virginia, and as of now no one has been able to provide documentation to connect this branch. I sure would appreciate any information you might have. Thank you Phyllis Payne Turner

Leslie Walker sent me an e-mail aboutmy post on the Michigan Paynes, but I cannot read it. Can you resend the reply to Michigan Paynes. Richard Clark

Hello, I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving. While I spent the week in Maryland with my in laws, I managed to contact Relative Genetics to pose some questions to them that I have received from those interested in participating in the DNA study. I have included the questions and responses for you here. Our participant count stands around 20, representing almost as many separate families. This is good in that we have a lot of different lines seeking to discover if they connect with some of our early Payne lines. It is those early lines that are so important to this study. We currently have a few participants representing Virginia lines from Goochland, Culpeper and Stafford Counties. As well as a couple representing Maryland lines. However, we have only one participant representing the New England lines, and that is a descendant of Thomas Paine and Mary Snow of Eastham, Massachusetts. I hope we will get more representation from these New England lines as I believe their participation is crucial. I'd like to make one more appeal to descendants of the New England families to consider being a part of this project. Having said all that, I am happy to say that we have located two individuals whose participation should prove interesting. One is a Payen from the Caribbean Islands whose family has lived there since at least the early 1700s. The other is a Payne whose ancestors hailed from Newton Solney, Derbyshire. Their ancestors are thought to have been the Paynes of Suffolk, England, and therefore related to the Paynes of Boston and Ipswich represented by William Payne and his wife Hannah North. Ron Payne of New Zealand, who has been conducting research in the Channel Islands, is attempting to contact members of the Payn family of Jersey in the hopes they will participate as well. Now to the questions posed to Relative Genetics. If there are others, please don't hesitate to contact me with them. 1. Several people have expressed privacy and security concerns regarding their profiles. How will they be used and what will become of them after the results are made available to us? Who will have access to them and for what (if any) purpose? A: Your individual genetic profiles will only be released to those to whom it is given consent to release them to. So, in your case, the participants will be releasing their information to you, the group leader. They will also have the option of having their data released to other Paynes who might inquire later, but it is not required that they do this. Their information will help to build what the Payne Ycs looks like, in a sense, but their personal information will be kept separately. 2. If members of one line have similar Y-chromosomes, why do we need to sample more than one person from that line? A: Basically, it is to ensure that we are correctly genetically documenting one line. It is just like having two witnesses for anything is better than having just one. It really helps to determine who is of the "true" line and who is not. Also, if you use men from the same line who are separated by three or four generations, it also helps us to pinpoint where in time mutations occurred. 3. How many "markers" are used to create our DNA fingerprints? A: 14 [this is 2 more markers than any of the other labs I checked] 4. How long will it take before we can expect results once all samples have been submitted? A: About three weeks. 5. Is the cost static at $150, or is it based on the number of participants? Some labs have reduced the price if a certain number of participants are obtained. A: I shouldn't have quoted a price before ours were set, but since I did...well, let's just say you are getting a substantial discount. 6. What are the qualifications and reputations of the staff at Relative Genetics? What projects are you associated with? A: Our lab director is Dr. Scott Woodward who is also the head of the Molecular Genealogy Research project at Brigham Young University. We are also doing all the lab work for that project. 7. What can we expect to learn from the results? I've described to you that we have several branches of the family that came to America by 1650. The genealogies are fairly well developed on some of these, but there is no documentary evidence of a relationship between them. However, there is a great deal of circumstantial evidence. Would it be possible, should DNA marker's for one or more of these lines match, to use our genealogical records to determine with any degree who our common ancestor was? If two participants find that they shared a common ancestor removed by say 7 generations, would it be possible to look at the pedigree's of these participants in order to draw any conclusion? A: The results will show, first of all, if the lines do share a common ancestor within a reasonable number of generations, in your case, back to 1650ish. It will be very obvious if the lines do not connect at all. So from the statistical estimation of the number of generations separating any two lines, you should be able to find the common ancestor genealogically. 8. I also mentioned to you the claim of the Lumbee Indians that the descend from surviving members of the Lost Colony of Roanoke. Although some have reported they descend from Henry Payne, I have not yet located them. Would it be useful to include any other members of the tribe or would it necessarily be limited only to those claiming descent from Henry? Also, Henry's ancestry has not been determined with certainty. We suspect he was a member of the Suffolk, England family, members of which settled later in Massachusetts. This family has descendants. So the idea was to find Lumbee's claiming descent from Henry to see if they match the profile of the Massachusetts line (or any other line), who were perhaps descendants of a brother of Henry. Would that be a way to determine which line Henry was associated with as well as establishing the Lumbee claim? A: To determine the Lumbee possibility, you would definitely need to find one who believes he is a direct male descendent of Henry. So, what you proposed is a great idea, if you can be sure you have found [a suspected] direct male descendents of both Henry's line and the Suffolk, England line. 9. To what degree will Relative Genetics provide an interpretation of our test results? What can each participant expect to get? A: I hope I answered that already, if you still aren't clear, please let me know. The group leader will receive a hard copy of the report, as well as a computerized copy if so desired. The group leader is then in charge of the information and can release it to the participants. 10. Do you have recommendations on how to best approach potential test participants? Many of the people I am contacting live in the area where our American branches formerly resided, yet they may view my effort as a scam of some kind. How can I ease their concerns? I have set up a web site at http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203 and would like to ensure that I am representing the test correctly. A: I think your web site is very clear and well done. If individuals do have concerns, please have them contact me via email.

Jeremiah Payne b 1827 Lockport NY d 15 Mar 1905 Reedsburg MI m 1849 Patience Jane Salsbury in Spencer OH.He was a Methodist preacher He was son of Hiram Payne & Calista Smith. 2 children Frank & Sylbia b 1850-53 Ohio, both d Cedar Springs MI. Frank Payne b 1853 Ohio d 1908 Coopersville MI m 1879 Frances Edmonson in Elm Hall MI, 4 children b Grand rapids MI 1880-94. I have been unable to trace th roots of Hiram Payne nor Calista SMith. Richard Clark

I am from the Payne's in Michigan. I can't find much info on them as no one really knows where who was born Here is the info I have I am hoping someone out there can help me shed some light on this branch of my family. My Great Great Great Grand Father was David Payne- b. abt 1817 PA. m. <?> Sarah A.\\ (b. OH abt 1826) I have no death dates and no marriage sate found him residing in Denver County, Newaygo County, MI 1870 Census My Great Great Grandfather and his Siblings. Great Great Grand father info Elijah Payne b. abt 1849 IND. m. Oct 1870 Sarah Elizabeth Woodruff d. unknown Andrew J Payne b. abt 1856 IND (can't read) W. Payne b. about 1865 MI Great Grand Father Allen Edward Payne b.January 20, 1870 Aetna, Newaygo County, Michigan m. Edith Melvina Briggs d. December 8, 1939 Pavilion Township, Kalamazoo County, MI He was suppose to be a Methodist minister in Bitely Michigan and founded the Payne Church, A school was also named after him called the Payne School and a cemetery Payne Cemetery The church was suppose to be torn down Have found no info on the church but have found the Payne School but no other info on it or the Cemetery. He was also a Trapper and had a resort on Pickerel Lake In Newaygo County, I don't know of any Siblings but there could be. My Grand Father: and his siblings Alfred D. Payne b.July 13, 1910 Bitely-Lilley, Newaygo County, Michigan m. Nov. 18, 1931 Bessie Marion Hammer (DenHammer), d. April 3, 1956 In Kent County, Michigan (was killed in the Tornado that hit acrossed Michigan). Claude Barzil Payne b. mar 11 1908 m Lola Doris Strubir Clarinda Almeda Payne b. Nov 21 1912 m. Morris Fuller Briggs Minnie Payne April 21 1915 Have no info on her Sadie M Payne b ? d. apr 20 1918 She was at Home of the Good Shepherd Grand Rapids, Kent COunty, MI I have a letter from there sending their condolences. Does anyone have a part of their Payne family who migrated to Michigan? If so I could really use some help as my Grand Mother recently passed on and my grqandfather has been gone for a long time I have no one else who can give me any info to go on. Elizabeth

Good luck, Kevin. Your message discusses a situation similar to mine with the WARINGs of Essex Co. There are significant omissions and errors in the genealogy of the principal genealogist, Hoskins. It was only through the help of online "cousins" that I was able to get information on my PAYNEs, John (b. abt. 1615 in England) and his son, Robert, the namesake of many WARINGs to follow. My PAYNE connection ends at Thomas WARING (b. 1719) --sixth great grandfather, who married Elizabeth (Betty) PAYNE in abt. 1738. She was allegedly born in Hanover Co. VA. date unknown. Would like to know more about Robert PAYNE who went by the name Robert DAVIES for a period of approx. five years prior to 1667 when his petition to restore his name as PAYNE was approved by the County Court at Rappahannock (later Essex) Co. Your message betrays (if that's the correct word) the problem with the PAYNEs, several groups of whom lived in Lancaster/Rappahannock/Essex Co. area in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Col. stated that among ". . .the fairly well defined groups of Paynes,. . .there does not appear to be any convincing evidence of consanguinity. . . ." I think it exists, but he just didn't have "proof." I trust you will post your findings on the PAYNE-L page etc. and we can follow it. Thanks for your posting. John Anderson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: 7/27/01 8:52:06 AM Subject: Reuben Payne family of Orange, VA Fellow Payne researchers-- Are any of you researching the Reuben Payne family of Orange Co., VA? The reason I ask is that it is increasingly apparent to me that Col. Payne's reconstruction of this family in the Paynes of Virginia is seriously flawed. For example, a comparison of the Orange Co. and Rockingham Co. Marriage volumes by Vogt Kegley reveal at least one daughter unknown to Col. Payne. Second, William Harrison Payne, considered by Col. Payne to have been the eldest child and to have been born about 1776, is consistently tracked in the various census records of Rockingham Co. as having been born about 1791. This is not to criticize Col. Payne and I know that Vogt Kegley's books also contain errors. My interest is simply to accurately reconstruct this family. Can anyone help? Thank you. Kevin Thompson katatty@socket.net --- kS2Oc5yKeBE= dpVpTiYLRebzj//JP08P3A== --- mijojohn@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.

Good luck, Kevin. Your message discusses a situation similar to mine with the WARINGs of Essex Co. There are significant omissions and errors in the genealogy of the principal genealogist, Hoskins. It was only through the help of online "cousins" that I was able to get information on my PAYNEs, John (b. abt. 1615 in England) and his son, Robert, the namesake of many WARINGs to follow. My PAYNE connection ends at Thomas WARING (b. 1719) --sixth great grandfather, who married Elizabeth (Betty) PAYNE in abt. 1738. She was allegedly born in Hanover Co. VA. date unknown. Would like to know more about Robert PAYNE who went by the name Robert DAVIES for a period of approx. five years prior to 1667 when his petition to restore his name as PAYNE was approved by the County Court at Rappahannock (later Essex) Co. Your message betrays (if that's the correct word) the problem with the PAYNEs, several groups of whom lived in Lancaster/Rappahannock/Essex Co. area in the 17th and 18th centuries. The Col. stated that among ". . .the fairly well defined groups of Paynes,. . .there does not appear to be any convincing evidence of consanguinity. . . ." I think it exists, but he just didn't have "proof." I trust you will post your findings on the PAYNE-L page etc. and we can follow it. Thanks for your posting. John Anderson ----- Original Message ----- From: To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com Sent: 7/27/01 8:52:06 AM Subject: Reuben Payne family of Orange, VA Fellow Payne researchers-- Are any of you researching the Reuben Payne family of Orange Co., VA? The reason I ask is that it is increasingly apparent to me that Col. Payne's reconstruction of this family in the Paynes of Virginia is seriously flawed. For example, a comparison of the Orange Co. and Rockingham Co. Marriage volumes by Vogt Kegley reveal at least one daughter unknown to Col. Payne. Second, William Harrison Payne, considered by Col. Payne to have been the eldest child and to have been born about 1776, is consistently tracked in the various census records of Rockingham Co. as having been born about 1791. This is not to criticize Col. Payne and I know that Vogt Kegley's books also contain errors. My interest is simply to accurately reconstruct this family. Can anyone help? Thank you. Kevin Thompson katatty@socket.net --- kS2Oc5yKeBE= dpVpTiYLRebzj//JP08P3A== --- mijojohn@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet.