I need help with George W. Payne of Lawrence Count Alabama. He married Emily Garrison there in 1864. He lived in the mountain Home area until 1894. Families associated with him were Letson, Hamilton, Farley and Stanley.

I am seeking information on James Payne, son of Berry Payne who married Catherine Farley in Lawrence County Alabama in 1860. I know that James joined the Confederate Army in 1861 and died in 1863 near Jackson Mississippi. His widow Catherine filed and was granted a pension on him. I have a record of the filing but have not seen a copy of the pension request. They had one dayghter Molly.

At 01:21 PM 07/11/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Ok.. for those of us women that have Payne relatives.. >is there a connection to Moses Payne son of John >Payne and Ayres.. John was a brother to Isaac Payne (1790-1849) who married >1814, Charlotte McDaniel. So where would I look for a connection to which >Payne family... >Thank you for your help on this. They simple answer to this is YES. Moses Payne (1806-aft 1850), m. 1827 Elizabeth Walker, in Rutherford County, NC. He was a son of John Payne and Philadelphia Ayres, who was a grandson of Isaiah Payne (1735-1818) of Maryland. A descendant of Isaiah participated in our DNA test (945O). Since Moses and his father were direct descendants of Isaiah, their male descendants would carry the same DNA as Isaiah (and our test participant). Therefore, any descendant of Isaiah Payne would align with our Payne Lineage 1, Ancestral Type 1, as outlined in the report. This same process holds true for any descendant of the ancestors represented in our test. I want to stress to everyone that the Y chromosome is passed from every man to his sons- no matter how many sons he might have had. In the case above, Isaiah had several sons and each would have received his Y chromosome. They, in turn, passed it on to their sons, and they to theirs. The process of passing Isaiah's Y chromosome will continue in this fashion, through ALL of the male descendants from him, until the male lines die out. When the very last male descendant from Isaiah dies, so will his Y chromosome. Having now addressed how the Y chromosome is passed down the chain- we must also realize the there was a reverse process too! Isaiah got his Y chromosome from his father, Isaac Payne (ca. 1713-bef. 1801). The Y chromosome that Isaiah passed to his sons (and their male descendants), was identical to the Y chromosome that he received from his father Isaac- and Isaac received his Y chromosome from his father, and so on. We can take this process (in this example anyway) all the way up to Thomas Payne (d. 1673) of St. Mary's County, Maryland, who married Jane Smallpiece. Thomas Payne began the process of passing his Y chromosome on to his sons and since we have not determined who his father was, the buck literally stops with him, genetically speaking. However, we know that the DNA of Thomas' father would be the same as his- and ALL of his male descendants too. This is how we know that, somewhere along the line, all of those individuals in Lineage 1, Ancestral Types 1, 2, and 3, shared a common ancestor- because they all demonstrate the same DNA signature. This was the easy explanation. It gets a little bit more complicated when we consider the "Mutation" factor. When you look at the result chart (using Ancestral Type 1 as an example- but this holds true for all of the Lineages identified as well), you notice that not every participant shared the same value in all 24 locations tested. For example, when you look at the results for the descendant of Isaiah (945O) and the descendant of Thomas Payne (945J), you see that under DYS389II, the descendant of Isaiah had 29 segments of DNA at that location while the descendant of Thomas had only 28. This is referred to as a "mutation." 29 segments appears to have been the standard in this Lineage as all of the others in it had 29 segments of DNA at this location. Their DNA is the same in all other respects- 23 of the 24 "locations" tested. They only differ at this one location (DYS389II), and it is a "one-step" mutation, meaning that only one segment (or strand) of DNA was removed in the case of Thomas' descendant. This means that beginning with the living descendant of Thomas (the person tested) and working our way up the pedigree, somewhere along the line, this mutation occurred. Thomas Payne (b. 1664) may not have actually had this mutation in his DNA- although it is possible that he did have it. He could have received it from his father, or grandfather, or gr-grandfather, etc... All we can determine from the results is that at some point in his line, a mutation DID occur and one segment of DNA at this location on the Y chromosome was not created. Someone in the line started the process whereby one less DNA segment was created at this location then other males in his line- who got all 29 segments. These "mutations" allow geneticists to determine the Most Recent Common Ancestor (MRCA), because mutations at particular locations on the chromosome occur at fixed rates. This gets into statistics, and I am terrible at math so I won't even attempt to explain it... Suffice it to say that the comparison of DNA signatures helps us to determine when a common ancestor had lived. If there is only one mutation (as in this case) that common ancestor probably lived fairly recently and they can be said to have been close relatives. As the number of mutations increases, the less likely it is that individuals were related. Generally, it is said that separation by 3 or 4 mutations indicates no relationship between people. However, the lab pointed out to me that as the length of the genealogical pedigree increases, the greater the number of mutations allowed to indicate relatedness. So while it may hold true that 3 mutations in a family that has traced their ancestry back to the 17 or 1800s may indicate no relationship, that will not necessarily hold true for a family that has traced their ancestry back to the 1500s, as more mutations can occur over that period of time. It is strictly dependant on the mutation rate for that particular location. Some mutations might occur frequently (say every 100 years). Others occur maybe every 200 or 300 years. I am picking numbers out of the blue here just to illustrate how it works. I don't have any specific knowledge about how often mutations occur at a given location.

Hello Everyone, I have a lot of new information to put out regarding our DNA testing and I know that many of you have been waiting patiently for this. I first informed our test participants that the report was on-line to allow them some time to review it before making it generally available. With that done, I am sure that you will want to see what Relative Genetics has to say. Before getting into that, however, I want to make you aware of a really great web site that provides a wealth of good information on Molecular Biology and the process of Genetics Testing. This site was created by a High School Biology teacher by the name of Nancy Custer and it is located at: http://www.contexo.info/DNA_links.htm. If you really want to understand how Genetics testing can be useful to genealogy and how it can be applied, I highly recommend browsing the links provided at this site. Get yourself a cup of coffee (or your favorite beverage) and prepare to spend some time. There are some really nifty animations that make understanding it all relatively easy. If you want to cut right to the chase without spending the time visiting all of the links, you really should not miss the following: http://gslc.genetics.utah.edu/basic/basics.html - Basic Genetics, produced by the University of Utah. Just click on the link "Tour the Basics" to begin. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/genome/program.html- The PBS show, NOVA, offers this web site with (16!) videos of their show "Cracking the Code of Life." Chapter 2 of this series, "Getting the Letters Out," runs almost 6 minutes in length. I downloaded the Quick Time version of this for viewing and it took no time at all with my Satellite connection to the Internet. Your mileage will vary depending on your connection, but I suspect that even with a modem, it will not be a painful wait for the files to load. I have included Nancy's web site as a link from my main page at http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203 as well, but recommend that you book mark one (or both!) of these sites for future reference. Now that everyone has good resources available for understanding the role of genetics in genealogy, we can move on to our results. You can view our final report and analysis by either clicking on the link to "Final Report and Analysis" provided on the main page at http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203 or you can get there by going directly to the page at http://papayne.rootsweb.com/dna-project/analysis-1.html. Once there, you will be presented with a short list of definitions of the terms used in our testing. This is followed by individual links to the report pages, beginning with an "Explanation" page which explains Haplotyping, Principles and Methods used in the test. IMPORTANT NOTE: While the "Explanation" page is HTML, all other pages of the report are in .PDF format and will require you to have Adobe's Acrobat Reader to view the pages. Most computers nowadays come with the Reader already installed. If for some reason you find that you DO NOT have Acrobat Reader, it is available for FREE download at http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html. Page 1 of the report is simple a list of our participant. The "Sample ID" in the first column of the page is the identification number assigned by the lab to each participant and this ID is used throughout the report when referring to a given participant. Although the report also sometimes refers to the participants ancestor by name, I recommend that you have this list handy for the times when they do not. Otherwise, it will be difficult for you to recognize who the report is referring to. The third column on page 1 is the Identifier that was assigned to each participant by me when we initiated the project to protect their privacy. This identifier, therefore, corresponds directly with the ID assigned by the lab. I have made it easier for everyone to convert these identifiers on the result chart page located at http://papayne.rootsweb.com/dna-project/. The first column on this chart has ALL of the information for each participant, including the project identifier, information on the ancestor, and the labs Sample ID (given at the end in bold type). While I am referring to the result chart, another IMPORTANT NOTE is that this chart has changed since I first made it available. The lab had some corrections to it that have now been incorporated. So if you printed it out or something in the past, you will want to make these corrections as well. You will also note that I have added the different Lineages found in our testing to the chart. Payne Lineage 1, Ancestral Types 1, 2 and 3 are all grouped together to show their relationship to one another. Although it would appear that Ancestral Types 1, 2 and 3 comprise of only 8 participants, the number is actually 10, and this is explained in the report. These 10 individuals all descend from a common ancestor. The other Lineage identified in our test is indicated on the chart by Lineage 2. This Lineage is comprised of 5 participants, who show a high degree of relatedness and also descend from a common ancestor, however, they are separate and distinct from those of Lineage 1- indicating that the two Lineages do not share a common ancestry. While I do not intend to describe every page of the report here, it need to make some comments about Page 2. This page includes an "Objectives" paragraph that the lab produced using the genealogies supplied by the participants as well as research notes that I provided to the lab to indicate where I thought we might find relationships between some of our participants. Because of this construction and the labs very limited knowledge of Payne genealogy, there are items contained in this section that I am sure will raise the eyebrows of some readers. So it is important for me to elaborate on why the lab chose the wording they did in some cases. You will also note an error or two on the page which I could not correct without destroying the formatting. For example, the lab mentions a family from NEW JERSEY, when in fact, this should read JERSEY, referring to Jersey in the Channel Islands. More significantly, readers may wonder where the heck the reference to John Payn (d. 1402) of Wymondham, Norfolk, comes from and why he is mentioned as the possible progenitor of four of our main branches! John Payn is not mentioned in ANY of our published genealogies, or any where else to my knowledge. I discovered details about John some time ago and have been digging up several interesting facts about his life ever since. The records surrounding John indicate that he was an ancestor of the Paynes of Leicestershire, and as such, ancestor of the Paynes of Bury St. Edmunds, Suffolk, and of Huntingdonshire. Although it has not been generally accepted at this time that the Paynes of Suffolk and Huntingdonshire were kinsmen, I believe that my research establishes this relationship when we consider such things as the fact that John Payn's nephew, Edmund Winter, of Norfolk, had purchased Hengrave Manor in Suffolk. The later bailiff's of this Manor at Hengrave were William Payne, grandson of Sir Thomas Payne of Leicestershire, followed by his son, Henry Payne, Esq. (d. 1568). This father and son were members of the branch known as the Paynes of Suffolk (more specifically, of the area surrounding Bury St. Edmunds) and their family had purchased land in the county from the Drury family, with whom they became closely attached in a variety of ways. Henry Payne above mentions members of the Drury family in his will, providing provisions for them to reacquire land that he held. Henry Payne also owned what is now known as the Ellesmere Chaucer (see notes on Baron Lavington at my web site connecting him to the later owners of this Manuscript), which came into his possession through the Drurys. Edmund Winter, as nephew of John Payn, had also been associated with the Drurys. Also of great interest to me is the fact that Henry Payne, apart from his close attachment with the Drurys, had served as bailiff of Hengrave under Sir Thomas Kytson, whose will and administration he took upon Kytsons death. Sir Thomas Kytons sister, Margaret, was the wife of John Washington, whose descendants immigrated to Virginia. We know through the genealogical record that the Washingtons were known to their Payne neighbors and their are several accounts of the friendships between the two families. The Drurys also came to America, settling in Maryland, where they too became involved with a Payne family. The DNA testing, which now confirms relationships between branches of the Maryland and Virginia Paynes, may provide us with new clues about these relationships with the Washingtons and Drurys and, perhaps, shed light on both the genetic and genealogical evidence pointing to a common descent from John Payn. This is no longer the great leap of faith or speculation that it once was. We have a wealth of record evidence that can now be supported by genetics. The tie between the Suffolk and Huntingdonshire Paynes, apart from numerous associations found through their social activities and relationships, can be seen in the fact that Robert Payne (father of Sir Robert Payne, 1573-1631), had purchased in 1590, land in Huntingdonshire from Katherine Fermor PULTENEY, widow of Michael Pulteney of Misterton, Leicestershire, and her then husband, Sir Henry Darcy. Michael Pulteney was a near kinsman of Sir Thomas Payne of Market Bosworth and his wife, Margaret Pulteney. Albert W. Paine, in his "Paine Genealogy- Ipswich Branch," which was published in 1881, first made the suggestion that the Paynes of Huntingdonshire descended from an elder son of Sir Thomas Payne of Leicestershire. He largely based his suggestion on the fact that Robert disappeared from the Leicestershire records and does not appear with his kinsmen in Suffolk. He concludes that either Robert must have died (although there is no indication for it in the Leicestershire records) or that he had removed to another county. He mentions that a Robert Payne appears at the correct time in the records of Huntingdonshire, and this Robert was that from whom Sir Robert Payne descended. This information can also be found in Col. Brooke Paynes "The Paynes of Virginia," under the entry for Sir Robert Payne whereby the College of Arms in London provides us with a biographical sketch of Sir Robert, describing him as a great-grandson of Robert Payne. When all of the record evidence is taken together and applied to the genetics, a clear relationship between these families emerges and also explains for us why we see the connections between various branches of the family in nearly every subsequent generation right up to the 19th-century with the family of Baron Lavington. This genealogical picture can be deduced when we consider our family traditions claiming that the immigrant John Payne of Westmoreland County, Virginia, had been a son of Sir Robert Payne of St. Neots, Huntingdonshire, and that his neighbors, Thomas and Ralph Payne, of Lancaster and Middlesex County, had been descendants of the line which had also produced Baron Lavington. This family is believed to have come from Jersey in the Channel Islands and we know through the genetic testing that it also includes the family of Isaiah Payne (d. 1735) of Maryland (a descendant of Thomas Payne and Jane Smallpiece, of St. Mary's County), as well as two other previously unrecognized relations- Charles Payne of Virginia, who married Elizabeth Davis; and William Payne who had married Celia Lewis. Anyone who has conducted research on the name Smallpiece can tell you that it is a very uncommon surname in both England and America. It is curious, therefore, that when the surname is encountered, it is in connection with either Thomas Payne of Maryland, the Paynes of Suffolk, or John Payn of Wymondham, whose wife, Sibyl de Hethersett, had been a kinsman of Humphrey Smallpiece of Norfolk. The DNA testing suggests that these groups (descendants of John Payne, and the descendants of the Jersey family), shared a common ancestor during the time of John Payn of Wymondham, Norfolk. John Payn appears to have had his own connections to Jersey, and may have been a member of that family. If that proves to be true, then we can see how (and why) the record evidence would link him and the Paynes of Leicestershire, Suffolk, Huntingdonshire, Jersey, Virginia and Maryland. The one piece of the genetic puzzle that we are lacking to further support this suggested pedigree is participation in our DNA testing from known descendants of the Bury St. Edmunds branch of the Payne family. If we can include some of these descendants and their DNA signature falls within our newly defined Payne Lineage 1, then we would have a complete genetic pedigree on which to base our genealogical research with the knowledge that they can be shown genetically to descend from a common ancestor (currently pointing to the time of John Payn). I understand that these short paragraphs are not going to sway anyone from the established way of thinking when it comes Payne genealogy. But I take consolation in the knowledge that the DNA results have broken new ground in several areas, even at this early stage in the game. We now know that branches of the Payne family, previously thought to have been unrelated, did, in fact, descend from a common ancestor. There is simply no way to discount the similarities in the DNA between them. In some cases, the DNA signatures were identical (24 out of 24 Alleles tested). In fact, nearly HALF of the 23 participants tested show common ancestry- 10 of 23. We are now confronted with making sense of what the DNA is telling us and when we combine these results with the traditional record evidence, a very plausible and reasonable genealogical pedigree begins to emerge. I do not pretend that my research is without error or that holes do not exist in it. But at the same time, I feel it is on the right track. The majority of the genealogical proofs that we need are to be found only in England, where very little research has been conducted other than direct line research. To my knowledge, only one researcher has approached the problem with this particular idea of inter-relatedness in mind, and this research has been spotty at best. But it is a start, and it has allowed us at least a glimpse of the truth. Okay, enough of all that... Getting back to the report, you will notice that under each page of the report there are links to "Notes." These are my notes where I attempt to further explain the results or to fill in where the report leaves off. Keep in mind that I am not a geneticist. I am simply trying to make sense of the results by comparing it with the genealogy. While I am providing my own notes, I am encouraging others to offer their opinions too. Our participants have been provided the means to contact one another to compare notes and discuss these results. As they share their findings with me, I will incorporate that information into the report, either as a web page or with a post to the mailing lists (probably both). My goal is for this project to NOT become a one-man exercise! One of the primary goals I had in initiating this form of research was to present enough evidence to stir the minds of Payne researchers. I would like for us all to rethink, question, and/or add to what we think we know about Payne genealogy. After all, in many cases, the genealogies we are working off of have not been updated in a very long time. Paine Genealogy- Ipswich Branch was published 112 years ago; The Paynes of Virginia 67 years ago; and An Armorial of Jersey more than 100 years ago. These three sources are the foundations of virtually everything we know about the Suffolk, Virginia and Jersey branches of the family. These genealogies constitute research on only one particular line of descent. In the case of Paine Genealogy, it represents the family of William Paine of Boston and Ipswich, Massachusetts, and overlooks nearly all other male lines of descent in the family. The Paynes of Virginia traces the descendants of John Payne, and although it mentions the possibility of kinships with other branches, fails to offer much beyond that. In short, there has never been a serious attempt to connect branches of the Payne family. It is now apparent that such an effort is desperately needed. I have spent the last several years piecing together every scrap of record evidence indicating relationships between our branches. This has grown to two volumes comprising over 700 pages (each) of unedited research. It is very raw data and the editing process extremely slow. Adding to this is my desire to cite appropriate source information which is something not found in even our best Payne family resources. The DNA record must now also be incorporated into the these volumes which will add further complications resulting in delay. While the end result of this effort will still not satisfy most genealogists desire for the definitive proofs necessary to establish relationships between some of our branches, it is still valuable for the shear weight of the facts it does contain and the clues that the associations provide. If it accomplishes the goals of bringing about change in our thinking and bringing researchers together in a new effort of research, it will have been well worth my effort. To that end, I have identified a publisher, however, with the large amount of editing required, I do not believe that I could have anything ready for many months. So if anyone has experience with editing, proofreading, publishing, etc., and you have the time to be involved in this process, I would certainly welcome your assistance. Perhaps that would speed of the process greatly... Regards, Patrick Payne

In a message dated 7/7/2002 3:04:01 PM Central Standard Time, PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: > The 2nd Lineage consists of 5 or possibly 6 > individuals (5 of which have identical DNA signatures) and are represented > on the chart by all of the ORANGE entries. > patrick, who is the sixth one? ray

In a message dated 7/7/2002 3:04:01 PM Central Standard Time, PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: > I would like to be included in > any tests on my family lines if they can do it from the female chromosone > and will force my husband to do it if they offer it for the German line of > Halls. > it does not have to be your husband if you want to find out the relationships. the testing can be on any of his brothers or his own sons or his brothers' sons, if i understand the amazing patrick payne thus far. ray lewis payne

Thank you Bill and Patrick for answering me. Sometimes I'm slow to pick up on things, so I have a couple of questions "just to make sure". First, does the DNA testing only work when the gene has been passed from male to male, no females? Second, the way I understand the answers, the descendents who can "prove" that they are descended from Payne A, are tested and then others who "think" they're descended from Payne A are tested to match with the ones who can prove it. Is that correct? I just want to understand a little better as I would like to be included in any tests on my family lines if they can do it from the female chromosone and will force my husband to do it if they offer it for the German line of Halls. Thank you again. Kelly Hall _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Kelly and all... I made an error in my last post that I need to correct. In the second paragraph of my post, it should say that if the baby received an X chromosome from its father, the baby will be a FEMALE (not male as I wrote). The thing I was trying to get at is that the Y-chromosome determines maleness and because it, unlike the X chromosome, changes very little generation after generation, it is ideal for genealogical purposes. Sorry for the error. Patrick

At 11:08 AM 07/06/2002 -0500, Kelly Hall wrote: >I've been watching with great interest (from the sidelines) all of the DNA >info, and unfortunately not understanding a lot. My husband is the Payne >descendant and won't agree to be tested (for now). Anyway, my biggest >question is how is the DNA determining which Payne you are descended from? >How do they know what the DNA is of i.e. John Payne of Westmoreland? Dear Kelly, There are a number of good web sites out there that explain the process in as much detail as you'd care to know- some of those sites are linked from my page at http://home.earthlink.net/~ppayne1203. To briefly answer your question, "How do they know what the DNA is of i.e. John Payne of Westmoreland?," is really quite easy if you stop to think about it. Remember that all babies, be they male or female, receive chromosomes from their parents- in fact, one chromosome each. If a baby gets an X-chromosome from his father, the baby becomes a male. If the baby, however, gets a Y-chromosome from the father, it becomes a male. If you keep that in mind, then it is pretty straightforward to follow the rest of the story. In the case of males (babies who got the Y-chromosome from their dad), they ALL pass this very same (or nearly so) Y chromosome on to their MALE sons. The chromosome does not change. Therefore, a descendant of the immigrant John Payne of Westmoreland today carries within him the same Y chromosome of John Payne himself (as well as John Paynes grandfather, and great-grandfather, etc., on through the male history of that Payne line). Therefore, we do not need to have a DNA sample from the bones of old John Payne. His DNA lives within his descendants and makes it possible for us to compare the DNA signature of his descendants. If there is a match (see the results chart at http://papayne.rootsweb.com/dna-project) in this DNA signature (or more specifically, in the Y chromosome signature) between two individuals, then we can conclude that they were related. If you look on the result chart, for example, scroll down to the bottom of the chart and look at the RED entry for descendants of Thomas Payne and Mary Snow. This is just an example, but a good one. These two participants knew through their genealogy that they were 8th cousins, once removed. The DNA testing bears this out as their DNA signatures are identical all the way across the chart. No question they descended from a common ancestor. As I said, they knew going into the test that they were related. Others in the test did not know they were related going into the test. For example, the descendant of Isaiah Payne and Charles Payne (near the top of the chart) also share an identical DNA signature indicating they are closely related through a common ancestor. The descendants of Isaiah Payne of Maryland and Thomas Payne of Virginia (number 3 and 4 on the chart) also share a nearly identical DNA signature- but there is one difference. You will notice that under the heading DYS389II there is a value of 28 for the entry for Thomas, while the entry for Isaiah shows 29. This is simply telling us that at this particular location on the Y chromosome, their is a "mutation," whereby the descendant of Thomas has one less segment (or strand) of DNA at that location than the descendant of Isaiah at the same location. Mutations are known to occur in different Y-chromosome locations over time. If the rate of these mutations can be determined, then it can be calculated WHEN they shared a common ancestor. I hope this brief explanation clears things up for you on the testing process and the value of it. It might not replace genealogy, but its value lies in its ability to show relationships between branches of a family. In our test results, we identified two primary Payne lineages. The first Lineage consists of 10 individuals (on our chart, you can see who they are by all of the GREEN). The 2nd Lineage consists of 5 or possibly 6 individuals (5 of which have identical DNA signatures) and are represented on the chart by all of the ORANGE entries. Regards, Patrick

I've been watching with great interest (from the sidelines) all of the DNA info, and unfortunately not understanding a lot. My husband is the Payne descendant and won't agree to be tested (for now). Anyway, my biggest question is how is the DNA determining which Payne you are descended from? How do they know what the DNA is of i.e. John Payne of Westmoreland? Thank you. Kelly Hall _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

Amen Stephen. What would we do without Patrick? Count me in for further testing if it will help the cause. Don Payne

As one of the 23 participants in the first round of Payne DNA testing, I want to express my appreciation here for all of the work of Patrick Payne in trying to provide us with an alternative input for our genealogical pursuit of Payne ancestors. I'm sure that the conclusions reported by Relative Genetics and Patrick don't begin to square with or address all of the information or interests of participants, but they do seem to create a reasonable base from which further work by us as individuals or groups might extend. I hope others will want to be included in a second round of DNA tests. The more of us that can be tested, there should be increasing evidence to support or refute initial results and to provide more linkages on these early Paynes. Since results in my own case suggest a strong link somehow to John Payne, the immigrant to Westmoreland Co., VA, I'd like to do more study on him and about three generations of his descendants. Perhaps there is some evidence that I haven't seen yet that would somehow link this John and his close kin to my earliest known ancestor, Phillip Payne, and probably three or four Payne brothers/cousins who started settling in the Craven/Kershaw/Camden area of South Carolina in the 1750s and 1760s. Although several of us have been collecting info on these SC Paynes, there has been little evidence other than family legends linking them directly to earlier Virginia Paynes. My own speculation has been these SC Paynes are a branch of earlier Goochland and/or Pittsylvania, VA Paynes who moved into some of the North Carolina counties before continuing south to the Camden, SC area, but this speculation is based on very little information that certainly needs to be challenged and developed further. If others have information or guidance on tracking these VA to SC Paynes (early/mid 1700s), please let me know. Thanks. --- Steve Payne

I'm changing my address to <likejazz@juno.com> Marilyne Short Payne

Still looking for info on Elizabeth Beatrice Payne daughter of Victor Virgil and Lucy Wood Payne. Family lived in Illinois but am unable to identify county or township. Do any of you nice people out there in Genealogy land have anything on this family? Ed Pigeon Forge, TN

Does anyone have a current address for David Champion? His old e-mail address was<champion@olo.net> My mail was returned and I would like to give him some data I found on his Spradley family. Thanks. Martha B. Steward <MBStew@worldnet.att.net.>

Seeking descendants of Fleming Caleb PAYNE, b. 20 Jan 1854, who died between 1913 and 1920 in either Carroll or Douglas County, Georgia. Burial place is unknown. Would like to share family information. Our family called him "Uncle Cale." He was a Baptist minister and farmer and lived in the Fairplay area of Carroll County. History books list his preaching assignments in Carroll County as Bethel Baptist (1892-93), Mt. Pleasant Baptist (1892-1897), Abilene Baptist (1901), and Consolation Baptist (1912-1913). Married first to Ella Williams (in 1875) and second to Retta Exom or Elam (in 1897). Children, all with first wife, were: Charles R. Payne Robert Homer Payne m. Fannie Tyson Roxy V. Payne m. Steve Clawer William Jasper Payne m. Jewel Johnston John Payne m. Mollie Pope George Washington Payne m. (1) Lula Beatrice Noles and (2) Cora Geneva Griffis Rilla Payne m. Alton Brock Joseph J. Payne m. Birtie Freeman Some of these children are known to have lived in Douglas County. William Jasper Payne was the mayor of Douglasville in 1933. Cale was the twin brother of my great-grandfather, Joseph Joshua Payne who married Louisa Elizabeth (Lou) Boyd. Joseph and Lou are buried at Powell's Chapel in Carroll County. Here is Cale's story as we have it so far: Cale, a twin, was born Jan. 20, 1854, in Monroe County, Tennessee, to William Jasper Payne and Mary Ann (Polly) Wood(s). His parents were married Jan. 21, 1852 in Monroe County and lived in the Sweetwater area in the northeast section of the county. Mary Woods Payne was the daughter of Joel Wood(s) and Mary Sellers whose ancestors came from Pennsylvania to Tennessee in the late 1700s. Joel Wood was the son of Mary Price and the Rev. Richard Wood, a Baptist minister of some renown in Eastern Tennessee. William Jasper Payne is thought to be the son of Fleming and Evaline Payne who also lived in Monroe County until they moved to Whitfield County, Georgia, sometime before 1860. Cale had four brothers and sisters by 1860 ... an older sister, Elizabeth, b. 1852; his twin brother Joseph (listed as Joel in the 1860 Monroe census); Rachel Saphronia, b. May 1856; and James C., b. 1858. Sometime after June 1860 when the Monroe census was taken, Cale's parents moved to Carroll County. The reason being, probably, that his Woods grandparents had already moved to Carroll between 1850 and 1860. Joel Woods, Mary Payne's father, may have been gravely ill as records show his will was made in late 1860 and recorded, following his death, in October of 1860. So the Payne family move from Tennessee to Georgia was probably made between July and September of that year. Whether they intended to move here permanently is unknown, but stay they did, and settled in the Fairplay area of Carroll County. In May of 1861, Cale's father, William Jasper Payne, joined the Civil War effort, enlisting with Co. I, 19th Ga. Regt., the "Villa Rica Gold Diggers." His uncle, Joel Woods, Jr., and cousin, William Woods, also fought with this unit. Within the next year, Cale's father was gone --- the victim of a fatal bout with the measles while he was serving with the Confederate Army in Richmond, Virginia. Joel and William Woods also perished in the Civil War. Cale's father, William Jasper Payne, was buried at Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond. In the meantime, back in Carroll County, Cale's mother gave birth to another daughter, Hannah Jane, born about 1862. In 1863, Cale's mother joined the New Hope Primitive Baptist Church, which was then in Carroll County and now is in Douglas. A Nancy Jane Woods, thought to be Cale's aunt, the wife of his Uncle Nathan Woods, also may have joined a few weeks earlier. It is not known how long Mary continued her membership at this church. Cale's mother apparently was extremely poor and could not afford to keep all her children at home. So she "farmed" them out to other families. By 1870, Cale and his brother, James, were living with the Levi Turner family as farm workers, and Joseph was living with William and Elizabeth Williams. The three girls, Elizabeth, 17, Rachel, 14, and Hannah, 8, remained at home with their mother. By 1880, Cale and all his brothers and sisters were married and living in Carroll County. Elizabeth Payne married James F. Williams in 1870, Rachel Payne married James Knox Polk Richards in 1875, James C. Payne married Mary Elizabeth Pope in 1877, Joseph Joshua married Louisa Boyd in 1877, Hannah Jane Payne married James Thomas Maroney (year unknown), Cale, himself, married Ella Williams in 1875, and, perhaps assuming responsibility for his mother's welfare, provided a home for her. All the brothers and sisters lived near one another in 1880, except Rachel, who lived in Douglas County. Joseph and Cale had both followed in the footsteps of their preacher-great-grandfather, Richard Wood. But, while Cale continued in the Baptist tradition, Joseph became a circuit-riding Methodist minister. Tragically, Joseph died with typhoid fever in September of 1891, right on the heels of the death of his infant son. Gooly Ross Payne, in June of that same year. In 1895, Rachel Payne Richards' husband put her and their six children on a boat bound for Texas and they settled in Shelby County near the Louisiana border. Cale apparently missed his sister, as he is said to have been a frequent visitor in the Richards home in Texas. Rachel and James Richards' children's descendants still live there. Both Rachel and James, and several of their children, are buried at Sardis Cemetery in Shelby County. Cale's mother, Mary Payne, applied for a widow's pension and was granted one in 1895. She received $60 per year for 1895, 1896 and 1897, and was deceased by 1898. We do not know exactly when she died or where she is buried. Cale's wife, Ella, also died sometime before 1897, and his brother, James, also died in 1897. Cale remarried Retta (Henrietta) Exom or Elam. My aunt, Milie Payne White, said of Ella that she was a wonderful mother to Cale's children and treated them as if they were her own. She described Cale as a very sweet man, and very emotional. Another relative said he seemed to take all the burdens of his congregation upon his own shoulders. Whatever the case and for whatever reason, this sweet, emotional man took his own life sometime between 1913 and 1920, and Retta is shown in the 1920 census as a widow, living alone. She is thought to have died in 1935, according to Georgia death records. Cale's death shook the family badly, and no explanation of his act is known to this day. Of all the children, these final dispositions are known: ELIZABETH Payne Williams died in 1928 and is buried at Powell's Chapel Methodist Church cemetery in Carroll Co. beside her husband, James F. Williams JOSEPH JOSHUA Payne died Sept. 30, 1891 and also is buried at Powell's Chapel beside his wife, Lousa Elizabeth Boyd. FLEMING CALEB's burial place is unknown. RACHEL SAPHRONIA Payne Richards died Aug. 2, 1922, and is buried at Sardis Cemetery in Center, Texas beside her husband, James Richards. JAMES C. Payne died 23 July 1897 and is buried at Macedonia Baptist Church Cemetery in Carroll Co. beside his wife, Mary Elizabeth Pope Payne Richardson. HANNAH JANE Payne Maroney died in 1911 and is buried in Etowah County, Alabama. I would love to meet descendants of Cale and his children in hopes of finding out if family stories told to them reveal anything of the family's earlier life in Tennessee. Research in this area is proving to be extremely difficult. Also would like to find out where the descendants are living and how they have fared. I will be happy to share family information from my line through Joseph Joshua Payne. Most of us are still in the Atlanta area. Thanks, Judy Fowler Kilgore Newnan, GA

I am researching ANDREW WILLIS PAYNE, Indian Trader. First. I do not know much about ANDREW WILLIS PAYNE except that he probably lived in North Carolina and had at least one daughter, Elizabeth Angeline PAYNE, b. 1799, d. 1888, Macon Co. TN. Elizabeth Angeline PAYNE was married to John ADAMS, b. in NC in 1791, d. Macon Co, Tn in 1873. John ADAMS was the son of Elijah ADAMS. John Adams is buried, along with his wife Elizabeth Angeline PAYNE-ADAMS in the Elijah ADAMS cemetery, Macon Co. TN. Second. There of course is the probabliliy that ANDREW WILLIS PAYNE had more children and I speculate that WILLIAM PAYNE, b. circa 1803-4 in NC. d. circa 1879 Fulton Co. AR. (also of 1850 Macon Co. TN.) might have been a son to ANDREW WILLIS PAYNE, and a brother to Elizabeth Angeline PAYNE. William PAYNE was married to a woman named Mary______? (in the 1850 Macon Co. TN. census record.) and I have guessed that she (Mary____?) b. circa 1813, TN. may have been an ADAMS, perhaps a daughter of Elijah ADAMS or one of his sons. In the 1850 Macon County, Tennessee census record, William PAYNE and his wife Mary lived in close proximity to several ADAMS families. Third. Elijah ADAMS and his brother Solomon ADAMS were among the early settlers of North Central Tennessee, more specifically "Old Smith County,TN". Both of these ADAMS recorded land deeds in Carthage, TN, County Seat of present day Smith County, TN as early as 1805 and 1807. Both these ADAMS brothers came from North Carolina to Tennessee in the early 1800s. ANDREW WILLIS PAYNE, b.? d.? Married to, ? Daughter, Elizabeth Angeline PAYNE, b. 1799, d. 1888. Anyone have this ANDREW WILLIS PAYNE in their tree? Raymond L. Gann

FYI for those interested: I recently purchased a hardcover copy of The Paynes of Virginia by Colonel Brooke Payne from the publisher, C.J. Carrier Company in Harrisonburg, VA. Mr. Ivan D. Carrier, the publisher, was very kind in replying to my initial request. His company issued a third printing in June 1998 and limited copies may still be available for $52.50 (+ $3.00 shipping and 4.5% sales tax for VA residents). This would save you a considerable amount of money as some editions go for several hundred dollars on the Web. The contact info is: C.J. Carrier Company Post Office Box 1114 Harrisonburg, VA 22803 Phone & Fax 540-434-3535 --N. Douglas Payne, Jr. Richmond, Virginia

Back on the Payne-L..........would be interested in connecting with anyone regarding Flayle Payne, b. 29-Nov 1698, London, England, d. 1765 Frederick, MD. Have heard of a book titled " Payne & Associated Families of Breckinridge County, Kentucky. Would like to find a copy. Linda Michals ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

Patrick, As far as I know I descend from the john Payne d. in 1669? Would that be the one? See below Descendants of John Payne, (1), * 1 John PAYNE, (1), * b: Abt. 1623 in England d: Abt. 1669 in Westmoreland Co. VA .. +Millicent UNKNOWN, * . 2 James PAYNE d: 1702 ..... +ANNE . 2 William PAYNE, Sr. ..... +Elizabeth HARNISS aka: Harris or Harnish . 2 Elizabeth PAYNE . 2 John PAYNE, (2), * b: Aft. 1651 in Westmoreland. Co. VA d: 1698 in Westmoreland Co. VA ..... +Elizabeth JOHNSTONE, * b: Abt. 1660 in Westmoreland. Co. VA aka: Possibly Murphy m: Bef. 1676 in Westmoreland Co. VA d: Abt. 1698 in Westmoreland. Co. VA Father: James JOHNSTONE, * Mother: * JANE David PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > ATTACHMENT part 1 message/rfc822 PAYNE-D Digest Volume 02 : Issue 76 Today's Topics: #1 Paynes of Wootton, Roxton, Tempsfo [Patrick Payne Administrivia: To unsubscribe from PAYNE-D, send a message to PAYNE-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains in the body of the message the command unsubscribe and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. ______________________________ > ATTACHMENT part 2 message/rfc822 Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 15:26:37 -0400 From: Patrick Payne To: PAYNE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Paynes of Wootton, Roxton, Tempsford Hall and Blunham House, Bedfordshire Hey list, You know, during our DNA testing it was completely lost on me and I could kick myself. I was so busy trying to find members of the Jersey Payn family to participate in our test that I completely overlooked the Paynes of Bedfordshire that had removed FROM St. Kitts to settle there during the late 18th century. Perhaps we would have better luck finding current members of this family willing to participate in our next round of testing? Has anyone on the list had correspondence with members of this family or at least aware of any? I quick search on my part reveals that there are likely descendants still in the Bedfordshire area and perhaps Ireland as well. I have found some Payne's bearing the names "Coventry" and "Philip Monoux" Payne that are probably members of the family to which these names occur. They would be descendants of Sir Gilles and Sir Charles Payne of St. Kitts, mentioned in "The Paynes of Virginia." They were certainly related to Baron Lavington as I have records of deeds where they claimed land in St. Kitts once owned by Baron Lavingtons family. An observation here is that the names Gilles and Ralph (together) only occurs in the Jersey family to my knowledge. I have found members of the Gloucestershire branch by the name of Gilles [and they happened to live not very far from Wiltshire, supposedly the home of Baron Lavingtons family]. But Ralph, particularly in early days, only seems to appear in Jersey. At least that's what my database tells me, so it is interesting and worth noting. The last known male of the family in my database was Sir Philip Monoux Payne b. 1858 of St. Kitts and Wootton, Bedfordshire, who d. 1935. He was a son of Coventry Payne d. 1849, possibly the Vicar of Hatfield Peverel, Essex, by his wife Harriett Wright. He had a great-uncle by the name of Sir Charles Payne of Tempsford Hall, Beds. who died in France 1841. If anyone has knowledge of current members of this family, please contact me. We REALLY need to see if we can get them tested so that we can confirm or lay to rest a possible relation between them and our Group 2, which includes Thomas and Ralph Payne (son Thomas m. Mary Montagu) of Lancaster and Middlesex, Va., Isaiah Payne (married Ann Williams) of Dorchester County, Maryland, and William Payne (married Celia Lewis) of Virginia. In addition to this, we also need to test descendants of the immigrant John Payne (d. 1689/90). While it is possible that George Payne (married Mary Woodson) was in some way related to Group 2, it has not been confirmed that he descended from the immigrant John. If we can test known descendants of John and compare the DNA results with Group 2, we will have better answers. I ask anyone who can assist in locating descendants of these branches to please contact me. I'm off to Salt Lake in the morning and will have news to report when I get back. Thank you! Patrick Payne --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup