One well-concealled illigitimate birth makes everything that follows garbage anyway. Let's not take ourselves too seriously, please. Short of DNA testing...it is all taken on faith anyway. I am done venting......I enjoy a good debate, tho'. Clair John 'Bill' Thompson, Sr. Lincoln Park, MI http://www.fuggit.com

In a message dated 98-04-11 11:14:06 EDT, you write: << I think that it is up to each person to verify the information in books, WFT, LDS ancestral files and by all means the net. Eronious information started way before the net, in books and before that by word of mouth. It up to each individual to verify, correct, and continue their research. We have enough rules already. It is not time to burn the books, take down the web sites, get rid of Ancestral file, etc. That would be Genealogical Suicide. Sharing information and correcting the eronious information is the answer for me. Just my opinion. >> My sentiments exactly......HOORAY FOR YOU!!!! I am not a purist and do not intend to become one. I am the first one in my family to do the research and my goal is to do it as best as I can. But, I do not want to try and reinvent the wheel....if someone has done research and it fits into my lines, I will probably use it. They will be given FULL attribution in my source field. I will leave it to future generations to prove or disprove each minutia of information. I DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR RESOUCES TO DO SO. Anybody who wants to "steal" (not my word) any info from me is welcome to do so except for commercial use......genealogy is not owned....it is only in the temporary custody of those working on it and should be shared fully. Greedy hoarders of genealogical information could go to their graves with the info and what a loss to us all that would be. As Dr. Raymond Bell (genealogist) once wrote: PUBLISH, PUBLISH, PUBLISH !!!!! Clair John "Bill" Thompson, Sr. Lincoln Park, MI http://www.fuggit.com

David, I agree about most of what you say and I am guilty as charge, but I have not sent in any information as of yet. I like your idea about sending in only your own work and keeping a separate file for yourself with the who family. I have written two books prior to the internet and was the work of myself and the people who I had contacted by mail or phone. And at the time of each book I thought they contained a large amount of names, but after the internet they are not so large. I am using the internet to cut and past, but after I get the new information I attempt to go back and check out the material. I have always done this. I suppose that it is not much different as when we use to order film from the LDS or go to the large libraries to gather information. I know I have order over 1500 films from Salt Lake City and I have been there and gathered the info. So in one way what makes this any different than going through files on the internet. The same goes to the fact that I used to write to family members and get their information. Is not that the same as getting it over the internet? I think the biggest mistake most of us are making is that we do not check and recheck the information we are getting off of the internet. I know I have typed up about 1000 obits and placed in my books and it takes time to do this. It is easy to cut and paste, but is it right. Well now, are we not doing the same thing with our newspaper obits from the past, I mean cutting and pasting. The only thing that is different is that we are not sending away for the material, but getting it right off the computer. So let us keep on digging for those roots and let us check out the material to see if it is correct and you might be able to add to the whole story by finding out something new when you check the information. No David I think we are very lucky to beable to have access to such a large data base. Before the computer it was the people who lived in large cities that had access to the data that is on the computer. But now every one has a chance to research his tree. Thank You Wayne L McKean, Seattle, WA

You might have noted the absence of [email protected] from the CC list-- it is because I subtracted it. It is the only one that has a "closed" list-- you can only post to it if you are a member. It is their safeguard against spammers. Several on that list I thought had already done this-- what happened? Of course it may be that the Ohio List was the only one I got a message from-- others might be closed and you just don't get a message back. At any rate, I guess you know you can choose this protection-- I suppose it's relatively easy to arrange for. "Water simply flows around obstacles it encounters." "Chance favors the prepared..." FROM: Michael Milton Mason <[email protected]>

David, I have read your, et al., comments... You make some crucial points, and while I was surprised at the callousnous of some, the belittling of the problem, the gloss-over solutions... Fact is, you describe the problem-- any solutions, besides "Now children, stop it?" The idea to only submit what you know to be documented fact would work-- 99% of the time. But documents are sometimes in error, and I'd rather have a GB of "maybes" than a database someone has climbed onto a stack-of-Bibles with that has an error-- somewhere. There have been times when I accepted documentation as gospel-- for a year or two, until there was overwhelming/sufficient indication otherwise, that "that just can't be so-- it doesn't fit with all this other." Point is, I could have submitted, confidant that it was incontravertable fact. I like your depiction-- "I used to prowl around courthouse attics and weed covered graveyards to uncover a choice treasure now and then with great anticipation and joy." Why did you stop? I just described to my (extended) family how I often claw a mile to get a foot. Why not take those leads and determine if they are are fact or fiction-- whether they indeed fit into your tree? At 09:39 AM 4/11/98 -0400, you wrote: >To all genealogists, > > I have been very concerned lately about the destruction of our hobby. The >fate of genealogy is being written as we speak and it is in your hands to >stop it. > >WHY THIS SUDDEN ALARM? > > Our data is being destroyed by two cancers known as "CUT AND PASTE" and >"MERGE". > >ONLINE GENEALOGY > > I began my online genealogy in 1981, the reason for purchase of my first >computer. Soon after I reasoned that if I could just afford that 3MB hard >drive at Radio Shack for only $5000.00 my problems would be over, now at >6GB I am running out of space. I used to prowl around courthouse attics and >weed covered graveyards to uncover a choice treasure now and then with >great anticipation and joy. Now I can get a hundred times more info in an >hour or two. So much so I haven't even had the time to read most of it, let >alone put it into my own database. Which leads me to my point. > >CUT AND PASTE > > Being involved in keeping a Family Website, I get many requests for >information, and some criticism as well. There are two camps. One thinks >every fact needs to be on the Two Tablets Moses brought down from the >mountains. The other thinks that if it is in ASCII it's proof enough. I >have submitted my own tree to the WFT Project, most of which was my own >work. Hoping to find corroborating works I check other trees often, only to >discover my own work pasted into someone else's tree. > >THIS PRACTICE IS DESTROYING ONLINE GENEALOGY. > >FIRST, it gives undue validity. When one piece of erroneous information >becomes 1000 pieces of the same erroneous information, it takes on a life >of it's own and an enearned "truth". >SECOND, it clutters up the internet search engines with hundreds of links >to the same bogus info. When someone does try to verify a fact, they can't >wade through the countless references. >THIRD, file sizes are increased to the point of unmanageablility with the >same, tired, redundant information, even when true. This makes sharing >impractical. >FOURTH, it discourages people with genuinely obtained first generation info >from releasing it. >FIFTH, if carried to it's logical conclusion, everyone will have the same >file. All of them wrong. >SIXTH, it makes compiling huge trees all too easy. >SEVENTH, it makes it impossible to tell whether you are seeing a >corroborating opinion of your data or a repeat of it. > >EXAMPLES > >Great database services, like GENSERV and the World Family Tree project, >although well conceived and of great potential, are being ruined by well >meaning genealogists who seed them with redundant information gathered from >those very same databases. > >Private websites, including my own, have been swamped by large file sizes >which are largely repeat information. (This was a result of my own policy, >which I have rethought, so no criticism intended) > >Believe it or not I have been offered "Family Trees" in excess of 75 MB and >over 125,000 names. I foolishly submitted some trees to add to this pile of >spaghetti. > >WHAT CAN WE DO? > > I propose creating a guide for online genealogists. A compilation of >voluntary "rules of the road". Netiquette for the Genealogist. > > To this end I am offering a few sample suggestions of my own to get the >ball rolling. Please send your comments, criticisms, suggestions, pros and >cons to me personally. (I do not subscribe to ALL the lists above) After >compilation of the ideas, I will submit them for a vote. Success will be >determined by the level of participation. Please submit ideas by April 24th. > >SUGGESTIONS > > If you have undocumented info to share, state that it is speculation. If >you receive that information, paste it into your own file if you choose, >but DO NOT redistribute it with your file. Instead, keep it as a separate >entity. > > As a general rule, do not combine other people's data with your own files >that you redistribute. Keep a file for your eyes only and another for >distribution. Distribute only work which you have done yourself from >primary sources, or have independently verified from primary sources. Do >not simply pass along someone else's data because they have it documented >either. > > Do everyone a favor and pass along transcripts of primary documents. > > If you find documents or trees on a website, download and keep it because >it may evaporate unexpectedly, but do not redistribute it. Instead, if >someone asks for it, check on it's availability and send them a link. > >SAMPLE SUBJECTS AND CATEGORIES > > Etiquette; File contamination avoidance; Source Documentation; Passing on >other's data under what conditions; Submission to databases; Merging trees; >Merging scraps of data; Requesting info; Providing info; Submissions to >redundant websites or databases; Should we pass secondary info at all or >just the source?; How about an unlinked but searchable family group sheet >database, each submitted sheet required to be nearly complete and well >sourced, and containing parents and children of the husband and wife? Any >interest in an online index of primary documents with the cost of >membership being to submit one? > >SEND ME YOUR IDEAS > >Thank you for your time, >Dave > >THE KEYSTONE PROJECT - A PENNSYLVANIA CARD CATALOG of GENEALOGY FILES >In it's infancy, please help! http://www.stonecabin.com/keystone >__________________________________________________________________________ >David H. Smith, Sr. Bensinger Family Genealogy >[email protected] http://www.stonecabin.com/bensinger > >----------------------------------------------- > Lost your welcome message? >Send GET PENNSYLVANIA-ROOTS-L WELCOME to [email protected] for another copy. > > "Water simply flows around obstacles it encounters." "Chance favors the prepared..." FROM: Michael Milton Mason <[email protected]>

Just found a reference in the Billings Bk #2 p. 109 which mentions the following. MILLER, Emma b. PA d. 8 Feb 1933-Tunkhannock funeral-Tunkhannock, Rev. Martin bur. 11 Feb 1933- Sunnyside age 78y 11m 19d- married-at home father- Abner ROSENGRANT-b. PA mother- Mamie HARDING-b. PA long time resident physician- Dr. MacDougall Does anyone know who Emma's husband was? Does this indicate that her husband was alive at the time of her death? I believe her husband to be James A. Miller (b. 1845). Jennifer

If there are death records for that period they are in the Wyoming Co Ct House Tunkhannock, Pa 18657. However the Ct house does not do request thru the mail. The Wyoming Historic Society in Tunkhannock might locate such a death record for you. I do not know what they charge.You might also locate his will. Marian

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Peggy, Please reply E mail came back. Could you send the information to me? My grandfather George Decker was a cousin to Pearl Osterhout and I know he was related to Pattersons. His mother was Laura Smith Decker born 1869 died 1897. Who aare you related to that you would have the Bible. I have Williams Decker Dailey Fitch Kresge Swartwood Sturr Hopkins Lasher Coon Dersheimer and more. Sandra LaCoe [email protected]

>From: CGTJ <[email protected]> >Looking for information on Charles Rosengrant... I am researching the ROSENGRANT families of Wyoming County in earnest, and will reply to you at length privately. Janice Fitzgerald McClintock [email protected] Researching in Wyoming County: ROSENGRANT, QUICK, BERRY

Please note that this is not my line at all. I just want to pass on information. If anyone is researching the above surnames, I have quite a lot of information on them and their children and grandchildren from an old family Bible. Contains birth, marriage and death dates and places as well as a handwritten document by the patriarch describing his life and his work as Newspaper Publisher, Justice of the Peace, Notary Public and County Attorney. Contact me if they are part of your line and I will send the information that I have. John Patterson OSTERHOUT b. 8 May 1826 La Grange, Wyoming county, Pennsylvania, married 23 February, 1859 to Junia M. Roberts b. 12 November, 1834 Falls, Wyoming county, Pennsylvania. She was daughter of Henry Roberts and Nancy Wilson. This couple moved to Texas in 1851 and settled in Austin county, then to Bell county in 1870. This bible follows the line of his son, John Jeremiah Osterhout b. 9 December 1865 in Bellville, Austin county, who married Mary Lizzie Prater b. 1 January, 1869 in Tennessee. Peggy Haynes Loar [email protected]

Hello, Does anyone know the cost of obtaining a death certificate from Wyoming County? I'd like to see if there is one there for my gg-gf Leroy W. Thomas, born February 1841, died October 10, 1898. I'm sure he died in Wyoming Co. because of CW pension papers and the fact he is buried there (Stark cemetary). Thanks in advance, Rich Thomas [email protected]

Rich, I just ordered one from there myself. They have Birth/Death records from 1893 to 1906. The fee is $5, make check to Prothonotary Office & send to Wyoming Co. Courthouse 1 Courthouse Square Tunkhannock, PA 18657-1228 (717) 836-3200 Good Luck! Whitney Laning [email protected]

Hi, Have a Helene Rosengrant b. 9/9/1925 m. 5/23/1945 Clifford Duane Nichols b. 5/8/1927. That's all I have on this couple. Can you link them to their ancestors and fill in the missing blanks? Burt Sickler [email protected]

Wyoming County has joined a growing number of GenWeb sites around the world who are using an automated query system. Visitors to the site can fill out a form online that will place their query on site in real time (no more waiting for the site administrator to add your info manually!) Two additional features of the system are very exciting for researchers. The queries use threaded responses and are searchable - you can search across counties, states, and even countries. I've kept all the earlier queries on the site under "Archived Queries" but I would encourage you all to consider posting as well to the new system and take advantage of the searchable feature. I apologize if you get more than one copy of this message-it's being sent to everyone who has posted a query on the Wyoming County GenWeb site: http://www.libertynet.org/wyoming as well as subscribers to PAWYOMIN-L Marj Marjorie Fulmer http://www.libertynet.org/~marj http://www.libertynet.org/~wyoming

Seeking to share information with individuals having data on the VANDEBOGART family that resided in the Newton Twp and/or Falls Twp areas. I have MILTON b 1856, JOSEPH b 1863 and BURTON b 1869. Were all three brothers? Who were their ancestors and descendants? MILTON m JOSEPHINE THOMPSON b ca 1859 d/o ALVEY and HARRIET ( WINTERS) THOMPSON. BURTON m MARTHA "MAT" THOMPSON b 1875 also d/o ALVEY AND HARRIET (WINTERS) THOMPSON. Other children of ALVEY and HARRIET THOMPSON were Andy, Jane, John and Jesse H. Thompson. Paul Thompson Severna Park, Maryland

Looking for information on Charles Rosengrant , father of George Rosengrant (1819-1865 Wyoming County) who was married to Charity Harding (d.1899 Wyoming County). George and Charity were parents of Charles Byron Rosengrant(b. 1856) (see below) Mary Rosengrant Myron Rosengrant Stukely M. Rosengrant Catherine Rosengrant Charles Byron Rosengrant married Anna Baker (b. 1853) and were parents of: Viola E. Rosengrant (1879) Llewellyn D. Rosengrant (1881) Georgia E. Rosengrant (1886) Bertha A. Rosengrant (1894) Walter Steward Rosengrant (1896) Nina C. Rosengrant (1901) If you have information on this branch of the Rosengrant family, please contact me. Thank you, CJ

I am researching these 2 families and have them back to RI in the early 1700's. What I need now is something about the life of Reuben J. Gardner, born in Factoryville in 1874. I have his death certificate, which says he was an electrical engineer. Where did he get his education and where did he work - before moving to St Paul, Did he attend Keystone College or some other school near Factoryville? Anyone researching these families may find my earlier research interesting. Ralph Rolland [email protected]

Joseph Lasher Eva Snyder bapt 21 Jan 1770 d 1839 Son of Johan Marcus (b 1740) & Elizabeth Doll Children Elizabeth Bapt 18 May 1795 Gallatin R.Ch Catherine Bapt 23 April 1798 Claverack R.Ch Maria b. 26 July 1804 Albany L Ch Peter b. 15 Jan 1806 m. Maria Lampman Marcus b 9 Nov 1806 m. Hannah Wiltsie Anthony b. 30 Sept 1810 Bethlehem R.Ch m. Ann Litchfield Magdalele Wagner Peter Lasher Maria Lanthan (Lampman) b. 15 Jan 1806 Bethlehem Reform Ch., Albany, NY m. d. 8 May 1885 Son of Joseph (b. 1770) and Eva Snyder Children Arnold b. 6 June 1830 #2199 Gallatin R.Ch Jones B b. 16 May 1832 #2199 " " Permelia b. 4 Oct 1833 #2525 West Copake Ref Ch Peter lived in Gallatin, Columbia Co., NY Source - "Lasher Linage" by Eileen Lasher Powers Sandra LaCoe