Sam: By no means I am suggesting any American family (PAIT or PATE) has any hereditary rights or privileges to the Coat of Arms in question; nor am I suggesting that you are asserting such a claim. You have made this clear over the years in all of your publications. Likewise, I am not suggesting that you are giving out bad information. My problem is this; I simply, perhaps through my own inadequate research, have not been able to find reliable evidence that the coat of arms continued in any state of validity after the original grantee, Sir John Pate, baronet, of Sisonby, County Leicester, died in 1652. My research indicates that the original grant of arms was made in 1643. I've found nothing to support a 1619 grant. Perhaps you can help me and show me where I've missed the boat. The reference I found- "Burke's American families with British ancestry : the lineages of 1,600 families of British origin now resident in the United States of America." at page 2855, indicates that Sir John Pate d.s.p.m. (descessit sine parole mascula ), i.e., died without male child. I used the 1974-75 Edition, LCCN 74-032428. The other reference I used was Cokayne's "The complete peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, extant, extinct, or dormant, by G.E.C." LCCN 06-022397. This one has a drawing. The grant and extinction dates of the arms are confirmed in this reference. [George Edward Cokanye] Neither reference makes mention of a grant of arms or motto in 1619. Such a grant would have, no doubt, had to have been made to an Ancestor of the Sir John Pate who died in 1562. Likewise, neither reference makes mention of the addition of an embellished crest in 1681 (62 years later). Rev. John Ben Pate, in his booklet of ca 1917-1919 wrote (in part) "Their pedigree, coat of arms and family motto can be obtained from the Herald's College, London, E.C., Queen Victoria Street, for the sum of about thirty-two dollars. The Pate arms are a stag's head, decorated or attired, and between the attires, a raven with outstretched wings." Regrettably, John Ben Pate, did not provide the motto nor did he provide a description of the field of the arms. This description of ARMS is consistent with the description of the CREST provided with the color representation of the arms on the web site. John Ben Pate also relied on a Mr. Green in London for information about the Pate coat of arms. He wrote - "Major Thomas Pate was an English emigrant, the son of Sir John Pate, who was created a baron of Leicestershire, England in 1643, at the death of his father (according to a letter to me from Everard Green, Herald's College.)". I note that John Ben Pate uses 1643 as the date the arms were granted and Sir John Pate was created a baronet. Did Mr. Green provide references and citations for the 1619 grant, for the motto, and for the crest embellishment As to the quartering of the Pate coat of arms with a Smith coat of arms, I've no knowledge of such a grant of arm. Is there a drawing and pedigree for this? Sir John Pate, who died in 1652, did leave two daughters as co-heirs. Frances, who seems to be the younger, did marry Charles Smith, the third and last Viscount Carrington. He d.s.p. May 1706 when his title also became extinct. The older sister, Abigail Pate married Sir Thomas Smith, baronet, of Hatherton, County Chester. Lady Abigail Pate Smith died 25 Oct 1691 leaving only a dau, Frances, as an heir. This Frances was recorded as Frances Pate b 2 Nov 1663. She married Richard Lister of Thorpe Ernald, who seemed to have been untitled. Perhaps it was through some of these lines that a quartering was achieved. I'm not familiar with the rules and nuances of quartering and hereditary claims to arms that far out. Perhaps it was one of these other arms that was granted in 1619 and the motto belongs with that grant I found the Randy Regan site that contains the color representation of the arms, but I can't locate the explanatory text that goes with it. http://regan.org/genealogy/families/pate/index.htm#toc The site does not seem to contain a genealogy for a David Pate. Is there perhaps another site or http address? Sam, again, I'm not suggesting anything other than the fact that I have been unable to find proof of the grant of arms in 1619, the existence of a motto associated with the coat of arms or the addition of an embellishment for the arms in question. Please point me in the right direction. Joel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Samuel T. Pait, Sr." <stpait@carolina.net> To: <PATE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 11:01 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Family Motto > Joel; > > The Pate Coat-of-Arms questioned is from my web site. I at no time claim > that this crest was granted to the American Pate family. The story of how > and to whom the Arms was granted to is in the David Pate genealogy in the > same site as the Arms. I also tell how I got it, from a Mr. Green, in > London. I found the Pate Arms quarted with the Smith Arms and that is how I > got the crest. From your answer to the question, the motto is correct, but > when you give it you make it sound like I am giving out bad info. If you > fill this way, please let me know how. > > Sam > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joel Pate <patej@nettally.com> > To: <PATE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 6:33 AM > Subject: Re: [PATE] Family Motto > > > > Diana > > The standard reference for British coats of arms that contains a > > representation and description of the PATE arms is Burke's book on > Extinct > > English and Irish Arms. > > That work indicates that the arms with the 3 Roman letters "R" was a life > > baronet grant that EXPIRED upon the death of the grantee. To my knowledge > > no embellishments, honors or motto were granted, recognized or recorded. > > > > One translation of "Pietas nunquam mor moritur" > > Death Never Kills Goodness (piety) > > > > Semper suspicat mal > > Joel > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <Icdrose1@aol.com> > > To: <PATE-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2002 8:34 PM > > Subject: [PATE] Family Motto > > > > > > > The following website: > > > > > > http://regan.org/genealogy/families/pate/coat_pate.htm > > > > > > gives "Pietas nunquam mor moritur" as the Pate family motto...anyone > know > > the > > > translation? > > > > > > Many thanks! Diana > > > > > > > > > >