A.J. I'm anxiously awaiting also. I had sent it to my son's girlfriend, whose father knows latin, but have not received answer back. Time gets away from me and I had not realized how long it has been. I'm sending a reminder as soon as I hang up the phone with you. Johnette -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of AJ Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PATE] Followup on Latin translation for Pate memorial in MeltonMowbray church On this past May 25, I posted a request for a Latin scholar to translate an inscription on a memorial to Sir John and Elizabeth Pate in St. Mary's church in Melton Mowbray. The memorial was placed there c. 1680 by their two daughters and honors them both, but only Elizabeth is buried there. Sir John was buried in London (for reasons unknown). There was interest indicated on the Listserve in having this translation done, but none has been proffered at this point. Below I am reposting the inscription as a reminder for anyone who may have, or know someone who has, the knowledge to provide the translation. We will not know the importance of this inscription until it is translated. It may or may not contain new information. But it is interesting that it has not been translated into English, to my knowledge, for about 330 years. Gerald Pait pointed out that Latin can be a very complex language to translate, since words are subject to many interpretations and may vary according to purpose and level of usage and the age in which they are written. This inscription may avoid some of those problems. We know that it was a formal memorial to deceased parents, and we know it was written c. 1680. These facts should make the translator's task a little simpler. In broad terms, a rough translation can be made. The Latin phrase "Johanne Pate (de Sysonby in comitatu Leicestriensi) baronettu" can be translated as "John Pate (of Sysonby in the county of Leicester) baronet". There are tributes to both John and Elizabeth. The date 1659 refers to the year of Sir John's death and his burial at St. Giles near London. I think it may be saying that he was 67 years old at his death, which would make his birth in 1592. It also has the date of Elizabeth's death as 1628 at age 37, which would make the year of her birth as 1591. As contributors of the memorial, both daughters' names are noted, and it appears the other children are noted in total. It ends with the sentiment that their bodies are awaiting the Resurrection. There is also another arms and briefer Latin inscription on the wall of the same church for Edward and Katherine Pate of Kettleby, the grandparents of Sir John Pate. I will post it after this one has been translated. A. J. Pate ____________________ The following is quoted from Nichols, Vol. II, Part I, p. 253: In the south transept, now called 'The Old Chancel', formerly a separate chapel, on a mural alabaster monument are these arms: On a wreath, Argent, three text r's Sable; Pate; impaling, Barry of eight, Argent and Gules per pale countercharged, in chief a greyhound currant, Sable, Skipworth. Crest, a stag's head caboshed, Or; a raven reguardant, with wings expanded, Sable. The inscription is: M. S. Johannis & Elizabethae Pate; quos Deus una, Mors gemina carne fecit, hos rejunxit hoc marmor, Siste, & aspecta, quisquis es qui praeteris, Johanne Pate (de Sysonby in comitatu Leicestriensi) baronettu, virum egregium, Antiqua familia Patorurn de Kettlebee ortu, natalibus majorem, vitae mortisque intregru, affertorem causae Angustae Caroli Primi (semper beatae memoriae Principem) strenuu, forte, fidu, votu piu a quo licet cecidit, nil addat celebrius Famae tuba. Quem juxta recumbit (velut in amplexu) Elizabetha, generis sui gloria, exemplar vitae probae, mortisque benedictae, Gulielmi Skipwith, comitatus Leicestrensis, militis & baronetti, filia, conjux fidissima, quae peperit 5 filios (omnes emortuos) filiasque totide, quaru superstites Abigail, Thomae Smith, de Hatherton, in comitatu Cestrensi, baronetti, & Francisca Caroli Carington, Barone de Wootton, comitatus Warwicensis, filli natu 4, conjuges dilectissimae, & moerentes cohaerdes, sumptibus suis monumentu hoc impar parentibus posuerunt charissimis, quoru ille ritu sepulcrali donatus apud Stu Egidiu prope Lond. anno 1659, aetatis sexagesimo septimo; Illa, sub hac terra, die Augusti decimo septimo, anno 1628, aetatis suae 37, Resurrectionem praestolantes. Amen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3035 - Release Date: 07/28/10 17:38:00

A.J. I gave the inscription to a Dominican priest who couldn't find anyone in his priory who could translate it. He sent it to a scholar he knew, but she returned it saying someone had borrowed her dictionary but not returned it. I have given it to a young lady who will spend a year in St. Louis completing her preparations to become a nun. She says she will try to find someone knowledgeable to work on it. Don't know how long that will take, but hope it may yield something. Gerald Pait is right in other opinions I have received about it. So many factors make it difficult to translate with certainty. Bill Pate ----- Original Message ----- From: Johnette McDuffie<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 11:59 AM Subject: Re: [PATE] Followup on Latin translation for Pate memorial inMeltonMowbray church A.J. I'm anxiously awaiting also. I had sent it to my son's girlfriend, whose father knows latin, but have not received answer back. Time gets away from me and I had not realized how long it has been. I'm sending a reminder as soon as I hang up the phone with you. Johnette -----Original Message----- From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of AJ Sent: Friday, July 30, 2010 5:24 AM To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Subject: [PATE] Followup on Latin translation for Pate memorial in MeltonMowbray church On this past May 25, I posted a request for a Latin scholar to translate an inscription on a memorial to Sir John and Elizabeth Pate in St. Mary's church in Melton Mowbray. The memorial was placed there c. 1680 by their two daughters and honors them both, but only Elizabeth is buried there. Sir John was buried in London (for reasons unknown). There was interest indicated on the Listserve in having this translation done, but none has been proffered at this point. Below I am reposting the inscription as a reminder for anyone who may have, or know someone who has, the knowledge to provide the translation. We will not know the importance of this inscription until it is translated. It may or may not contain new information. But it is interesting that it has not been translated into English, to my knowledge, for about 330 years. Gerald Pait pointed out that Latin can be a very complex language to translate, since words are subject to many interpretations and may vary according to purpose and level of usage and the age in which they are written. This inscription may avoid some of those problems. We know that it was a formal memorial to deceased parents, and we know it was written c. 1680. These facts should make the translator's task a little simpler. In broad terms, a rough translation can be made. The Latin phrase "Johanne Pate (de Sysonby in comitatu Leicestriensi) baronettu" can be translated as "John Pate (of Sysonby in the county of Leicester) baronet". There are tributes to both John and Elizabeth. The date 1659 refers to the year of Sir John's death and his burial at St. Giles near London. I think it may be saying that he was 67 years old at his death, which would make his birth in 1592. It also has the date of Elizabeth's death as 1628 at age 37, which would make the year of her birth as 1591. As contributors of the memorial, both daughters' names are noted, and it appears the other children are noted in total. It ends with the sentiment that their bodies are awaiting the Resurrection. There is also another arms and briefer Latin inscription on the wall of the same church for Edward and Katherine Pate of Kettleby, the grandparents of Sir John Pate. I will post it after this one has been translated. A. J. Pate ____________________ The following is quoted from Nichols, Vol. II, Part I, p. 253: In the south transept, now called 'The Old Chancel', formerly a separate chapel, on a mural alabaster monument are these arms: On a wreath, Argent, three text r's Sable; Pate; impaling, Barry of eight, Argent and Gules per pale countercharged, in chief a greyhound currant, Sable, Skipworth. Crest, a stag's head caboshed, Or; a raven reguardant, with wings expanded, Sable. The inscription is: M. S. Johannis & Elizabethae Pate; quos Deus una, Mors gemina carne fecit, hos rejunxit hoc marmor, Siste, & aspecta, quisquis es qui praeteris, Johanne Pate (de Sysonby in comitatu Leicestriensi) baronettu, virum egregium, Antiqua familia Patorurn de Kettlebee ortu, natalibus majorem, vitae mortisque intregru, affertorem causae Angustae Caroli Primi (semper beatae memoriae Principem) strenuu, forte, fidu, votu piu a quo licet cecidit, nil addat celebrius Famae tuba. Quem juxta recumbit (velut in amplexu) Elizabetha, generis sui gloria, exemplar vitae probae, mortisque benedictae, Gulielmi Skipwith, comitatus Leicestrensis, militis & baronetti, filia, conjux fidissima, quae peperit 5 filios (omnes emortuos) filiasque totide, quaru superstites Abigail, Thomae Smith, de Hatherton, in comitatu Cestrensi, baronetti, & Francisca Caroli Carington, Barone de Wootton, comitatus Warwicensis, filli natu 4, conjuges dilectissimae, & moerentes cohaerdes, sumptibus suis monumentu hoc impar parentibus posuerunt charissimis, quoru ille ritu sepulcrali donatus apud Stu Egidiu prope Lond. anno 1659, aetatis sexagesimo septimo; Illa, sub hac terra, die Augusti decimo septimo, anno 1628, aetatis suae 37, Resurrectionem praestolantes. Amen. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com/> Version: 8.5.441 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3035 - Release Date: 07/28/10 17:38:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I don't know whether any of the major universities in my area are specifically adept in languages, but hope to check in at the University of N.C. and Duke University on that score. There's also a catholic high school in my area and a higher level Catholic school not far away. Worth trying. thanks Bill ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Latin translation for Pate memorial Have you tried or do you live near a major university that offers advanced degrees in Languages. University and research staff has saved "my day" many times. Just a thought from my past. ellen > > I gave the inscription to a Dominican priest who couldn't find anyone in > his priory who could translate it. He sent it to a scholar he knew, but > she returned it saying someone had borrowed her dictionary but not > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message