Wow! I don't ever recall a topic creating so many responses. I would not normally comment on this subject, just not one of particular interest to me, but thought I should respond to a couple of postings. Laynie wrote: "A couple of us have discussed the PateDNA project off-list privately, and because of the females not being included, a lot of in-depth Pate research is being ignored - and the research already documented which includes the females has even been REFUSED to be accepted in the past when offered! That is truly sad." This was all in one paragraph, but I am not sure it all was intended to apply to the Pate DNA Project. But I will respond as though it was, just for the record and to clarify any possible misperceptions. And Jerry wrote: ". . . I think I remember that if there is any native American ancestry in the family, it would show up in female DNA? " Females with a Pate bloodline have always been welcome to join the Pate DNA Project. In fact they were some of our earliest members. We currently have seven females as members, six of them having been tested for mtDNA. We also have fifteen men who have tested their mtDNA. We have few women joining for very practical reasons. This is because mtDNA has limited genealogical value, especially compared to male Y-DNA, as explained by the following three paragraphs, which have been on the home page of our Pate DNA Project since its inception four years ago: "Only males inherit the Y-chromosome from their fathers, and the Y-DNA follows the surname, passing from father to son through all subsequent generations, unchanged (except for random minor mutations) for up to 500 years or more. These factors create a very valuable tool for genealogical research. "Females do not have Y-DNA. They neither inherit it from their fathers nor pass it down to their sons. Thus tracing family lines through maternal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is problematical, since the mtDNA is passed through the generations only from mothers to daughters. The mtDNA does not follow the family surname due to marriages, with female birth names often quickly lost to history. The mtDNA is also passed from mothers to sons, but sons do not pass it on to their children. "A match on mtDNA proves only that the females share a common female ancestor, but the time to the most recent common ancestor may range from recent to many hundreds of years. In other words, a female who was a Pate by birth could determine a kinship through mtDNA to a female who was never a Pate, either by birth or marriage, while the reverse would never be true for a male Pate through Y-DNA." I wish that this was not true, because as a rule females seem to have more interest in genealogy than males. Yet ironically, while males carry a clear-cut means of identification of ancestral lines, females do not. God must have a sense of humor to pull this switch on us. Many of the men who have joined our Project did so only through the efforts of a wife, sister, cousin, or other female relative. When I receive a request to join the Project from a female, I basically cite the three paragraphs quoted above and encourage them to find a male Pate relative to represent them as a proxy in the Project. If this not practical, I inform them that they are welcome to submit for mtDNA testing, but they should be fully aware of its limitations. Since mtDNA is passed through maternal lines only, it cannot be used to identify family lines. For example, a female whose father was a Pate would receive no Y-DNA from him, but would receive mtDNA from her mother who was not a Pate. This Pate daughter could match mtDNA with her maternal grandmother of whatever surname, her maternal greatgrandmother of whatever surname, and so on through maternal lines for centuries. But this Pate daughter could not match her Pate grandmother nor other females in her paternal family lines. I see two practical uses for mtDNA testing. One is to establish a female haplogroup, and the other would be to confirm a kinship with another female. In the former case, you could determine a racial/ethnic ancestry received from your mother and her maternal ancestors. In the latter case, for example, if you had come to believe through genealogical research that another female was in your maternal line, you could both be tested and a match could confirm your kinship. Alternatively, you could find an mtDNA match with another female, then begin a search for the common female ancestor. If anyone knows of any other information to be gained, please let me know. Now, on to the Indians, and Jerry's question. Indian ancestry can be identified through Y-DNA or mtDNA, but caution is advised. You can read this informative website, among hundreds of others, for more explanation: http://www.manataka.org/page824.html Basically, haplogroups Q and C in males (Y-DNA) identify American Indian ancestry., while haplogroups A, B, C, D, and X in both genders' mtDNA identify American Indian ancestry. But keep in mind, that these would be direct lines, either paternal or maternal. In the case of a Pate male, his Y-DNA would have been established perhaps thousands of years ago with the first Pate male in his line. It would make no difference how many Indian women that his ancestors might have married. With mtDNA, you could prove that there was Indian ancestry in your direct maternal line, but without genealogical evidence, you would be unable to determine when or where this occurred. Of course, as noted above, men receive mtDNA from their mothers, but do not pass it to either their sons or daughters. Currently in our Project, there are no males in Y-DNA haplogroups Q and C. On mtDNA, out of 22 members, we have one in haplogoup B and another in haplogroup X. There are companies which offer DNA tests which purportedly provide a percentage breakdown of the different racial/ethnic components. These are very expensive and may be of dubious reliability. Please learn all you can about such tests in case you are tempted. There are new developments in DNA research constantly, and I think you would be well advised to be cautious. Of course, none of this above discusssion has anything to do with traditional genealogical research or documentation, neither for males nor females. Those subjects are not topics of discussion on our Project's website. The appropriate place for these discussions is here on the Pate Listserve, and I do not believe any relevant topic is ever denied access. I am reluctant to even mention this, but there is a new alternative which held promise for non-Pate males and females with a Pate bloodline to participate directly in the Pate DNA Project. This is a new test offered by Family Tree DNA called the Family Finder test, which I have mentioned here before. This test is intended to identify distant kinships of any of your ancestral surnames through autosomal DNA, which is not gender specific. However, for a number of members who have received their results from this test, including me, the results have been very disappointing. I cannot recommend this test at this time. Everyone is free to make their own decision. I will be happy to receive suggestions, comments, questions, etc. regarding the Pate DNA Project. My emailbox is always open. A. J. Pate Group Administrator Pate DNA Project