Very interesting find here: http://names.mongabay.com/data/indians.html #992 - PATE Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood. We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Ahhhh, OK - I was just trying to track some Native American Pates and thought you were doing same, so I apologize for confusing it with your search, Nita! Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses What an interesting man and so accomplished. Thank you for sharing the website. Unfortunately, the surname I referred to is not Pate. Pate is Bill's line. Nita -----Original Message----- From: ThorPateLine <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses http://tinyurl.com/2vdv6fx Perhaps not Cherokee, but Chickasaw? Anything is possible.... The above link is a cache from LinkedIn for Ronald D Pate, Chickasaw.... TX Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood. We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
What an interesting man and so accomplished. Thank you for sharing the website. Unfortunately, the surname I referred to is not Pate. Pate is Bill's line. Nita -----Original Message----- From: ThorPateLine <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses http://tinyurl.com/2vdv6fx Perhaps not Cherokee, but Chickasaw? Anything is possible.... The above link is a cache from LinkedIn for Ronald D Pate, Chickasaw.... TX Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood. We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
http://tinyurl.com/2vdv6fx Perhaps not Cherokee, but Chickasaw? Anything is possible.... The above link is a cache from LinkedIn for Ronald D Pate, Chickasaw.... TX Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood. We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
http://www.healthanddna.com/ancestry-dna-testing/native-american-dna.html This is the main reason I ended up in such a heated argument with Joe Scarborough awhile back over him refusing to include or correct the known Pate FEMALES and the correct birth/death/marriage dates for them in his database! http://www.healthanddna.com/ancestry-dna-testing/female-ancestor.html A couple of us have discussed the PateDNA project off-list privately, and because of the females not being included, a lot of in-depth Pate research is being ignored - and the research already documented which includes the females has even been REFUSED to be accepted in the past when offered! That is truly sad. I am not meaning to point fingers at anyone in particular - I am just attempting to show how much can be lost by ignoring that Pate females have anything to offer. Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gerald Pait" <[email protected]> To: "Joel Pate" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Joel: I am probably incorrect, wouldn't be the first time, but I think I remember that if there is any native American ancestry in the family, it would show up in female DNA? I'm not sure where I heard that but maybe between you and AJ, you would know for sure. Jerry -------Original Message------- From: [email protected] Date: 7/14/2010 1:22:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
It has to be a direct daughter to daughter line.? We went to a lot of trouble finding that line.? My Great Grand father had just one daughter.? But we found two.? One would have nothing to do with it.? The other one was a nurse and said sure.? My sister paid for it and it turned out no Indian blood, from the one who looked like an Indian.? My Dad looked Indian too.??? It really makes no difference to me either.? After all the Indians were here first and we took the land away from them.? So when we moved from Houston I gave my part back to the Indians (in my mind anyway). Nita remind me next week and I will look at those census records for you. Clovis -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Pait <[email protected]> To: Joel Pate <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 3:33 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Joel: I am probably incorrect, wouldn't be the first time, but I think I remember that if there is any native American ancestry in the family, it would show up in female DNA? I'm not sure where I heard that but maybe between you and AJ, you would know for sure. Jerry -------Original Message------- From: [email protected] Date: 7/14/2010 1:22:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I would have to argue about her being the meanest woman in the world.? My husband's graqndmother was.? She too had long hair down to her waist.? She was really an Indian.? In the 1930's she got a letter from the Bureau of Indians that she was entitled to land in Oklahoma.? Back then it was not popular to be Native American.? So her children tore the letter up and would not let her answer it.? I learned this from both her daughter and my father in law.? I met her several times and she was mean, mean I mean mean. -----Original Message----- From: David Taylor <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 10:28 am Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses My gg-grandmother, Tebitha Jane Pate, was full-blood Cherokee. My father knew her when he was a boy. Small, dark woman, with waist- length black hair. Great-Grandpa said she was the meanest woman he ever knew. David Greg Taylor http://davidgregtaylor.com/ http://dogspokenhere.com/ http://twitter.com/davidgregtaylor/ http://facebook.com/davidgregtaylor/ On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Rebecca Hall wrote: > > Do you know of any Pate who is Native American? ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Joel: I am probably incorrect, wouldn't be the first time, but I think I remember that if there is any native American ancestry in the family, it would show up in female DNA? I'm not sure where I heard that but maybe between you and AJ, you would know for sure. Jerry -------Original Message------- From: [email protected] Date: 7/14/2010 1:22:29 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I have found Martha Ann Payte on an 1880 census as Cherokee, Of course I can't seem to find it again. Haven't exactly found any other evidence of it any where else either!! Lisa 2 --- On Wed, 7/14/10, ThorPateLine <[email protected]> wrote: From: ThorPateLine <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses To: [email protected] Date: Wednesday, July 14, 2010, 6:15 PM Ahhhh, OK - I was just trying to track some Native American Pates and thought you were doing same, so I apologize for confusing it with your search, Nita! Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses What an interesting man and so accomplished. Thank you for sharing the website. Unfortunately, the surname I referred to is not Pate. Pate is Bill's line. Nita -----Original Message----- From: ThorPateLine <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses http://tinyurl.com/2vdv6fx Perhaps not Cherokee, but Chickasaw? Anything is possible.... The above link is a cache from LinkedIn for Ronald D Pate, Chickasaw.... TX Laynie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood. We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Good idea and we had considered it but we already knew that this family was from very early NC Cherokee - which ever side of the early family it came from - male or female. The connection had already been made before moving on to TN, to MO and then to TX. Some stayed in MO or moved on further west. None were in the Trail of Tears or similar displacement. To our knowledge, no one seriously tried to followup on the enrollment in the OK Territory Cherokee Nation since that wasn't the group they came from and in TX, they moved to a very isolated area in Edwards Co., TX, and stayed there for several generations. Also, we didn't have an Indian name to refer to. How much is actually fact and how much family lore, don't know but at least 4 generations have carried the story forward - just don't have enough really early information to tie it together. Our cousin made a dedicated trip to MO to check out the male side of the family that is supposed to be our connection and they deny Indian connection although it is all over the internet that that family's researchers do claim the early male was the Indian. Who knows. Not a burning issue for me. I believe one side or the other was of Indian extraction generations back. Many of us carry the slightly darker skin and some Indian facial features. Great Great Grandmother definitely looked Indian as did her mother. The headstone certainly suggests she was born in a tepee, went on to a log house then to Heaven (the church + steeple), Thanks for the advice. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Wed, Jul 14, 2010 1:01 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Have you ever tried to make contact with the Cherokee Nation's tribe in Tahlequah Oklahoma.? (The Capitol of the Cherokee Nation) also the Historical Museum in Ohlahoma City has a fabulous collection of Indian records which also includes those who tried to claim Indian blood but were refused enrollment. Just a thought. ellen > I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. > > For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. > We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the report came back T2, European. The gg grandmother certainly looked Indian in her pictures and was a "healer" in the traditional Indian culture manner so - that has left us up a tree so to speak. Also, her rather tall, headstone is shaped like a tall house with a steep roof, has chiseled tepees on the bottom of the roof part on both sides, then moves on to what appears to be a log cabin on each side and the top appears to be a church including a cross at the pinnacle. The center section has a narrative. This is not a new headstone. Unfortunately, we left our camera in another vehicle and no one had cameras to record what the headstone actually said but as I remember it gave a glowing report of her life and how much she was going to be missed. I do not recall any reference to her being Indian on the headstone. We have entertained the thought that perhaps the gggg grandfather was actually the Indian, passing along the features and the lore of Indian blood. We haven't found a direct descendant on the grandfather's side to test. Next item to consider was the recent TV documentary on who was actually in North America first - eons before Columbus. One of the interviews was with a group of Cherokees. They speculated they were actually of very early European extraction but the documentary did not give us DNA proof of this belief by this group of Cherokees. If that was actually correct, then at least some of the Cherokee tribes could have been very, very early European, giving us the European mtDNA results. So - will the real Cherokee tribe stand up?? Last item: Does anyone have free access to late 1860- early 1900 census records for TX? Perhaps I could recheck my gg grandmother's census record for the "I", etc. There is a possibility that she would not have noted herself as Indian since they moved to an area (Edwards Co, TX) where they had a horrendous Comanche raid. Being Indian might not have been the popular thing to claim at that time. I believe they were in Gonzales earlier. Nita Fry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 7:27 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Have you ever tried to make contact with the Cherokee Nation's tribe in Tahlequah Oklahoma.? (The Capitol of the Cherokee Nation) also the Historical Museum in Ohlahoma City has a fabulous collection of Indian records which also includes those who tried to claim Indian blood but were refused enrollment. Just a thought. ellen > I am going to throw out a few thoughts on Native American Ancestors. > > For generations we have thought our ggg grandmother was a Cherokee Indian. > We recently tested the mtDNA of 2 eligible persons in our line and the >
My gg-grandmother, Tebitha Jane Pate, was full-blood Cherokee. My father knew her when he was a boy. Small, dark woman, with waist- length black hair. Great-Grandpa said she was the meanest woman he ever knew. David Greg Taylor http://davidgregtaylor.com/ http://dogspokenhere.com/ http://twitter.com/davidgregtaylor/ http://facebook.com/davidgregtaylor/ On Jul 14, 2010, at 10:33 AM, Rebecca Hall wrote: > > Do you know of any Pate who is Native American?
Was this on the original roll or added later On Jul 14, 2010, at 9:39 AM, Rebecca Hall wrote: > Jim, > > In order to be registered my ggrandfather's parents (on the Dawes rolls) had > to prove their Native American ancestry through a genealogy tree. I have > copies of the extensive paperwork done by my ancestors. > > On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Jim Pate <[email protected]> wrote: > >> When the Indians were signed upby the Dawes Commission just about anyone >> who wanted to be listed were accepted as Indian >> Sent from Jim Pate's IPad >> >> On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >>> Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those >> columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American >> Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My >> great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is >> because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the >> Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land >> and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: DMariee <[email protected] <lt%[email protected]>> >>> To: pate <[email protected] <lt%[email protected]>> >>> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm >>> Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you >> already >>> >>> knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special >> attention to >>> the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native >> American >>> >>> ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might >> change from >>> census to census." >>> >>> Donna Hassan >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the >> body of >>> the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
When the Indians were signed upby the Dawes Commission just about anyone who wanted to be listed were accepted as Indian Sent from Jim Pate's IPad On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, [email protected] wrote: > Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: DMariee <[email protected]> > To: pate <[email protected]> > Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm > Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses > > > > > I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already > > knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to > the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American > > ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from > census to census." > > Donna Hassan > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of > the message > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
HI.Nicknames not only refer to standard changes like John to Jack . In central New South Wales Australia early 1900`s we have 3 boys who were given sensible names like Stephen William, but were always known as Tom-Dick and Harry and what`s more frustrating they were married as Tom-Dick and Harry and entered as such on some of their children`s birth certificates . Family history can be frustrating . Laurie whose wife descended from The Pates from Scotland -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of WILLIAM PATE Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2010 7:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PATE] OBIT ~ Matthew J Pate 1938 Wilson NC I had a good friend who was nicknamed Jack (why, I don't know). His given name was Gordon. On the other hand, my uncle, John Calvin Smith III was nicknamed Jack. Another uncle whose given name was Gordon was nicknamed Pete. Go figure. Bill Pate
Jim, In order to be registered my ggrandfather's parents (on the Dawes rolls) had to prove their Native American ancestry through a genealogy tree. I have copies of the extensive paperwork done by my ancestors. On Wed, Jul 14, 2010 at 7:21 AM, Jim Pate <[email protected]> wrote: > When the Indians were signed upby the Dawes Commission just about anyone > who wanted to be listed were accepted as Indian > Sent from Jim Pate's IPad > > On Jul 13, 2010, at 7:27 PM, [email protected] wrote: > > > Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those > columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American > Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My > great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is > because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the > Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land > and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: DMariee <[email protected] <lt%[email protected]>> > > To: pate <[email protected] <lt%[email protected]>> > > Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm > > Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses > > > > > > > > > > I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you > already > > > > knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special > attention to > > the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native > American > > > > ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might > change from > > census to census." > > > > Donna Hassan > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of > > the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >
Hi Donna, (Sorry for the repeat e-mail here, but I thought I'd sent this to the Pate group in general.) My maternal great-grandfather (not my Pate side) was registered Native American (Cherokee). His children, however, felt disgraced with that heritage so were listed as "white," even changing the spelling of their last name to appear more "white." My father (my Pate side) always told me that his grandmother (whose mother was a Pate) was Choctaw, however she nor her parents were ever listed as anything other than "white" on any census or any record I've been able to locate. Unfortunately, my father passed away last year before I was able to prove to him if what he was told was true or not. Do you know of any Pate who is Native American? Rebecca On Tue, Jul 13, 2010 at 4:03 PM, DMariee <[email protected]> wrote: > I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you > already > knew this anyway. This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special > attention to > the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native > American > ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change > from > census to census." > > Donna Hassan > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >
Donna that is a good point to make for those who may not realize those columns are important.? I was told all of my life that we had American Indian Blood on my fathers side of the family.? But DNA tells us no.? My great grandfather's brother is listed in Oklahoma as Indian, but that is because he married the niece of the governor and some how was listed on the Indian rolls.? A bit of crooked politics I assume.? They got lots of land and he even had a town named after him but he was no Indian. :) -----Original Message----- From: DMariee <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 6:03 pm Subject: [PATE] Native American Ancestor designation on US Censuses I found this very interesting thought I would share, perhaps many of you already knew this anyway.? This is according to Ancestry Com, "Pay special attention to the columns designating color and place of birth. You may find a Native American ancestor listed as I, In, Ind, B (black) or M for mulatto. It might change from census to census." Donna Hassan ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
That is very frustrating Laurie.? Also frustrating is when a couple have a child that? died and then names the next one born after that one the same thing.? You wonder why there is so much difference on the census of the ages.? Then you blame it on the census taker.? Then in the next census there is another one only born two years after the second one.? They keep naming a child by the same name as the first one until they get a child by that name to live.? But if you ever find the cemetery where the first and second are buried then you know that is what is happened because there is two by that name buried and the name is engraved with two years between them.? I have only found this one time in one of my families (not Pate), but I know three other people that found the same thing in their family.? Strange people we are trying to locate and prove they are theirs. Clovis Byars Herring (Daniel Pate b. 1812 NC, Thor group) -----Original Message----- From: Laurie Thompson <[email protected]> To: pate <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jul 13, 2010 5:20 pm Subject: Re: [PATE] OBIT ~ Matthew J Pate 1938 Wilson NC HI.Nicknames not only refer to standard changes like John to Jack . In central New South Wales Australia early 1900`s we have 3 boys who were given sensible names like Stephen William, but were always known as Tom-Dick and Harry and what`s more frustrating they were married as Tom-Dick and Harry and entered as such on some of their children`s birth certificates . Family history can be frustrating . Laurie whose wife descended from The Pates from Scotland -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of WILLIAM PATE Sent: Wednesday, 14 July 2010 7:56 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PATE] OBIT ~ Matthew J Pate 1938 Wilson NC I had a good friend who was nicknamed Jack (why, I don't know). His given name was Gordon. On the other hand, my uncle, John Calvin Smith III was nicknamed Jack. Another uncle whose given name was Gordon was nicknamed Pete. Go figure. Bill Pate ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message