Thanks for more great discussion everyone. Everything I have learned from you folks is supporting (at least not negating) my theory so far. Especially thanks to those of you who took the time to quote the Francis book, and your kindness in realizing how I am working at a disadvantage not having it in hand for reference. I'll keep searching the net and the used bookstores until I have my own (3 years now!). By the way, for those Light descendants and researchers, I did find the graves of II Henry Light and Barbara Landis (on the Greenwood side, not too far from the graves of those I speculate to be II John Light and Anna Landis, and I have a photograph I will put up on my site or email to any who might want it. Didn't find II Jacob to photograph, but according to the index he is there too with his wife Elisabeth Landis. One more question I'll repeat for those who might know, but were too overwhelmed by my last message: Who places the Revolutionary War medallions and flags (in Lebanon County and when), and what information do they work from? (I believe different organizations do for different wars, Grand Army of the Republic for Civil War for instance?) Again many thanks. JL

John Light-Monterey,CA wrote: > > I believe I have found some of the elusive stones from the old > Light/Licht Family burial plot once located in east Lebanon aka "The > East Lebanon Cemetery", on the farm of Johannes Licht, 1725/26. > > I do not know if this is a new theory or not. I have not found > anyone, nor any new documents to propose other theories, > aside from the information compiled from P. C. Croll in 1894 and J.G. > Francis prior to 1958. As those in the know are aware, Francis' work > was finally published and edited in 1990 by Betty M. Light Behr; > however, I do not believe Betty added any comments to those of Francis > or his son Willard on this issue. > > I recently returned from visiting Ebenezer cemetery in North Lebanon. > After speaking with two very helpful, but equally stumped, caretakers > (one for the Covenant yard, and the other for the Greenwood yard), I > finally took to searching the yards stone by stone hoping to find the > one (or two) that belonged to John Light 1725/26 m. Anna Landis 1730. This would be II John Light (b. 2/21/26, d. 3/11/1806), the oldest son of I John Light, "The Immigrant". > The Convenant caretaker's workhouse had a very old and deteriorated map > of the cemetery on its wall. However, it was unreadable, and I had > nothing else to go on. (Has anyone requested help from or found > information through the Covenant church?) > > I found a stone that appears to be inscribed "Johannes Lic . . ." > Nothing much else readable, and with evidence of excessive rubbing > (!), and other stones to the left and right of it completely worn, one > completely broken off or missing, and on the other side of the worn > stone on the right, one belonging to "Johan Licht", 1767-1814. This would be III John Light (b. 12/29/1767, d. 1/10/1814), the seventh son of II Martin Light. An > American flag and Revolutionary War (SAR?) medallion sits between the > two stones on the right. > > The cemetery engraving/marker index I found at LCHS does list a > "Johannes Licht" with the dates in agreement with JG Francis' II John > Light. In the index it is immediately followed with reference to the > stone of "Johan Licht", the dates agree with Francis as Johan Licht of > 1767-1814. The inscription on the larger stone (this is the one I > suggest belongs to II John Light) is now completely worn. It was > partially worn when the index was compiled, but readable when > transcribed by Croll in 1894. > > These stones sit just southwest of the (old Ebenezer?) entrance where > the road circles round an area with the largest trees of the yards, > between the two yards. According to Croll, and as quoted by > Francis, John's and Anna's graves/stones were moved to Ebenezer in 1894, > but others had been moved earlier on according to other accounts. (1876, > 1886-88). > > However, the "Johan Licht" stone that sits here would not be their > child, nor their grandchild, but their nephew (son of II Martin, pgs 13, > 250 in Francis), "Martin, 1726" according to Daniel Wenger's online > database that is closely based on Francis. (I DO NOT have > Francis'/Behr's "Pioneers" book, btw, so I am having difficulty piecing > this together.) Rev. Francis says on p. 340 of the book edited by Betty Light Behr: "III John Light, p. 250, son of II Martin, m. Mary Light, doubtless the dau. of II John Light, p. 15, for III John calls Abraham Light, doubtless II John's son, his brother-in-law. II Martin conveys his home farm, the Mt. Leb. Cemetery Farm, to his son John (III John herewith) Mar. 2, 1798, and here John resided. He made his will Jan. 9, 1814, mentioning his wife Mary, his sons Abraham & David his daughter Mary who receives 1000 pounds. III John died rather young, age 46 years. His wife is not buried beside him. She may have remarried. He is buried beside his Uncle II John in Ebenezer Cemetery & was doubtless previously buried in the same cemetery with him at 3rd and Lehman Sts. He (III John herewith) had buried a son here and not unlikely his father II Martin was also buried here and the marker destroyed." This "Johan Licht" is too young to be (one of) the > revolutionary soldiers John Light. > > An online essay on these stones with photographs in html format can be > found at: > http://www.redshift.com/~jblight/Licht.htm > > My queries here now are for those who have the Francis book or > additional knowledge or would like to help me figure this one out. I am > seeking translation of the Old German script inscriptions as recorded by > Croll (and included on the web pages). Anyone, please forward this > message to those who might be working on the line of II John Light > 1725/26-1806, and please refer to the web pages. I keep hearing rumor > that others are working on these early generations, but who(?), and why > is the research such "top secret" ;-) > > Croll discusses three or four stones (two belonging to John and/or Anna > Light 1725/26, as they agree in family description) but another he > describes as red sandstone belongs to Johannes Licht b. 1720. Does > this Johannes Licht 1720 appear in Francis' book? Does anyone have > additional theory on how he connects to the family? Is this stone the > source for the name Maria that keeps popping up as the wife of John > Light the Immigrant? However, these same accounts don't seem to place > this Johannes Licht as a first son to the senior immigrants. > > Why does "Johan Licht" appear to have a revolutionary medallion, isn't > it misplaced? One revolutionary war soldier was "Johannes Licht" > according to the cemetery index b. 1752 (but I didn't find this stone), > and Francis mentions III John Light ("John Light of Bethel" pg. 18) as a > soldier and gives no dates for him, but has him buried in "Light's > Graveyard" on Little Swatara Creek. Isn't it the SAR (or DAR) that > places the flags, and what information do they work from, do they have > information we do not have access to? Is the flag placed here because > Francis once believed and tradition holds that II John Light was > secretary to the Lebanon Resolves? > I quote excerpts from p. 400: "II Jacob Light, p. 13, third son of the immigrant I John Light, m. Eliz. Landis, b. July 30, 1734, d. Mar. 29, 1807. ..... Jacob was a soldier in the Revolution, designated "Jacob Light, Sr.", in Capt. Stone's Co., Class 6. —See Pa. Archives, 5th Series, Vol. VII, pp. 159 & 180. In this same Company was his son John, also his bro. Henry ("Henry Light, Sr."), Henry's son John, & his nephew Jacob, son of his brother Martin to the e. At this time his bros., Martin & John, were too old for the military service." On the same page the list of children of II Jacob Light includes no John or Johan but includes a III Hannes, b. Aug. 5, 1757, d. Sep. 3, 1822, and refers to p. 413. The entry on p. 413 says: "III John Light, p. 400, "Rich Hannessly", son of II Jacob, m. Veronica Light, b. Aug. 2, 1758, d. Apr. 7, 1824, one of the daus. of II John Light; .....John Light, Jacob's son was in the Revolution, Capt. Stone's Co., Class 2, 5th S. -Vol. VII, pp. 158 & 179, Pa. Archives." On p. 451: "Henry Light, p. 13, the youngest son of the Immigrant, ..... Henry m. Barbara Landis, b. Mar. 19, 1738, d. Apr. 16, 1813. They were doubtless first bur. in the old Light Cem. sw. cor. 11th & Mifflin St., but now rest at Ebenezer. ..... Henry was a soldier in the Revolution - "Henry Light, Sr." in Capt. John Stone's Co., the 6th, 2nd Bat. of Lanc. Co. Mil., 5th Class. See Pa. Archives 5th Ser., Vol. VII, pp. 159 & 179. His son John was in the same Company, Class 1, p. 179. Henry Light in Capt. Henning's Co., p. 184, was doubtless his oldest son Henry. His other sons were too young for service." The 12 children of II Henry Light on p. 451 include as the two oldest III Henry Light, b. Nov. 21 (Dec. 4), 1760, d. Oct. 3, 1830; and III John Light, b. Feb. 7, 1762 {no date of death given}, with a further reference to p. 496. On p. 496 it gives no more information about his military service or where he was buried. He was married to Magdaline Bachman, and possibly was married twice, being first married to Anna____. He and his wife Anna of Lower Paxton Twp., Dauphin Co., sold land that John Light had bought on Apr. 2, 1807. On May 13, 1829, John Light of Swatara Twp., Dauphin Co., and wife Magdalena also sold "land in said Twp." {This may indicate that it is unlikely that he was buried in Lebanon or at Ebenezer.} You are right that on p. 18 it states regarding III John Light of Bethel, the oldest son of II John Light, the following: "He was a soldier in the Revolution under Capt. Casper Stoever, Class 8, 3rd Co., 2nd Bat. Lanc. Co. Mil. - Pa. Archiv., 5th Ser. Vol. VII, pp.152 and 172." It also says, quoting the writing of Moses Light: "This (II) John Light took up about one section of land situated at the Little Swatara creek, on the road leading from Lebanon to Fredericksburg. The 3rd John Light, above mentioned (my grandfather got about one-half of this tract of land from his father as a legacy. He then built a house and barn on this tract, and later he built a large two story brick grist mill, which was called Light's Mill for a long time but now Stoever's Mill (now Freeport Mills-Ed.) located on the little Swatara creek where the stream makes a large bend, almost forming a peninsula. (John Light is listed as having a mill in Leb. twp. in 1780-Ed.) This John lived on this farm fifty odd years, and is buried on the same land, called Light's Graveyard." {Incidentally, I found on a map of Lebanon Co. that there is a Light Church Rd. at or near this location. - LJM} A further discussion relating to the military service of these men is on p. 593. "Dr. Shenk claims that what is now Lebanon County was undoubtedly represented in the battles of Trenton, Princeton, Brandywine and Germantown. This participation was undoubtedly responsible for naming that branch of the Quittapahilla which was mainly in Light land, the Brandywine. It ran through the lands of Martin Light, of Henry Light and of Jacob Light......It is reasonable to assume that the Lights gave the name. Martin is not listed with the non-associators, nor is Jacob's son John, taking the John listed as Jacob's brother. Might Martin and Jacob's son John have been in the battle? Jacob and Henry by 1781 had overcome their scruples and were in Capt. Stone's Company. When the enemy became so imminent in the Fall of 1777, might they too have met him at Brandywine? Somehow we are inclined to associate Henry Light with the naming of Brandywine Creek." On page 644 there is also a summary of those who served in the Revolutionary War. I won't copy this unless someone asks for it. > Does anyone have an alternative theory or know where else in the yard > the early stones might be, and if these are not those stones, do the > stones exist anymore? According to Francis and any recent research, do > any of the 2nd generation siblings have stones remaining anywhere in > Lebanon? > > Thanks for all your time and assistance. > > JL > I tried to copy the excerpts from the book faithfully, and I hope that I added no errors to those already there. Leroy Miller West Hills, CA

I was told that when they moved the cemetery from about what is now 11th & Lehman Sts, some of the graves were not moved. I believe some of the Lights' graves were mentioned as being among those not moved. I am also a descendent of the Light family and I thought it odd and that is probably why I remember this. Check with the LCHS or the gentleman who does the genealogy column in the Hbg. Patriot News. I think you can get more info from them. Betty > I believe I have found some of the elusive stones from the old > Light/Licht Family burial plot once located in east Lebanon aka "The > East Lebanon Cemetery", on the farm of Johannes Licht, 1725/26. > > Does anyone have an alternative theory or know where else in the yard > the early stones might be, and if these are not those stones, do the > stones exist anymore? According to Francis and any recent research, do > any of the 2nd generation siblings have stones remaining anywhere in > Lebanon? > > Thanks for all your time and assistance. > > JL

I believe I have found some of the elusive stones from the old Light/Licht Family burial plot once located in east Lebanon aka "The East Lebanon Cemetery", on the farm of Johannes Licht, 1725/26. I do not know if this is a new theory or not. I have not found anyone, nor any new documents to propose other theories, aside from the information compiled from P. C. Croll in 1894 and J.G. Francis prior to 1958. As those in the know are aware, Francis' work was finally published and edited in 1990 by Betty M. Light Behr; however, I do not believe Betty added any comments to those of Francis or his son Willard on this issue. I recently returned from visiting Ebenezer cemetery in North Lebanon. After speaking with two very helpful, but equally stumped, caretakers (one for the Covenant yard, and the other for the Greenwood yard), I finally took to searching the yards stone by stone hoping to find the one (or two) that belonged to John Light 1725/26 m. Anna Landis 1730. The Convenant caretaker's workhouse had a very old and deteriorated map of the cemetery on its wall. However, it was unreadable, and I had nothing else to go on. (Has anyone requested help from or found information through the Covenant church?) I found a stone that appears to be inscribed "Johannes Lic . . ." Nothing much else readable, and with evidence of excessive rubbing (!), and other stones to the left and right of it completely worn, one completely broken off or missing, and on the other side of the worn stone on the right, one belonging to "Johan Licht", 1767-1814. An American flag and Revolutionary War (SAR?) medallion sits between the two stones on the right. The cemetery engraving/marker index I found at LCHS does list a "Johannes Licht" with the dates in agreement with JG Francis' II John Light. In the index it is immediately followed with reference to the stone of "Johan Licht", the dates agree with Francis as Johan Licht of 1767-1814. The inscription on the larger stone (this is the one I suggest belongs to II John Light) is now completely worn. It was partially worn when the index was compiled, but readable when transcribed by Croll in 1894. These stones sit just southwest of the (old Ebenezer?) entrance where the road circles round an area with the largest trees of the yards, between the two yards. According to Croll, and as quoted by Francis, John's and Anna's graves/stones were moved to Ebenezer in 1894, but others had been moved earlier on according to other accounts. (1876, 1886-88). However, the "Johan Licht" stone that sits here would not be their child, nor their grandchild, but their nephew (son of II Martin, pgs 13, 250 in Francis), "Martin, 1726" according to Daniel Wenger's online database that is closely based on Francis. (I DO NOT have Francis'/Behr's "Pioneers" book, btw, so I am having difficulty piecing this together.) This "Johan Licht" is too young to be (one of) the revolutionary soldiers John Light. An online essay on these stones with photographs in html format can be found at: http://www.redshift.com/~jblight/Licht.htm My queries here now are for those who have the Francis book or additional knowledge or would like to help me figure this one out. I am seeking translation of the Old German script inscriptions as recorded by Croll (and included on the web pages). Anyone, please forward this message to those who might be working on the line of II John Light 1725/26-1806, and please refer to the web pages. I keep hearing rumor that others are working on these early generations, but who(?), and why is the research such "top secret" ;-) Croll discusses three or four stones (two belonging to John and/or Anna Light 1725/26, as they agree in family description) but another he describes as red sandstone belongs to Johannes Licht b. 1720. Does this Johannes Licht 1720 appear in Francis' book? Does anyone have additional theory on how he connects to the family? Is this stone the source for the name Maria that keeps popping up as the wife of John Light the Immigrant? However, these same accounts don't seem to place this Johannes Licht as a first son to the senior immigrants. Why does "Johan Licht" appear to have a revolutionary medallion, isn't it misplaced? One revolutionary war soldier was "Johannes Licht" according to the cemetery index b. 1752 (but I didn't find this stone), and Francis mentions III John Light ("John Light of Bethel" pg. 18) as a soldier and gives no dates for him, but has him buried in "Light's Graveyard" on Little Swatara Creek. Isn't it the SAR (or DAR) that places the flags, and what information do they work from, do they have information we do not have access to? Is the flag placed here because Francis once believed and tradition holds that II John Light was secretary to the Lebanon Resolves? Does anyone have an alternative theory or know where else in the yard the early stones might be, and if these are not those stones, do the stones exist anymore? According to Francis and any recent research, do any of the 2nd generation siblings have stones remaining anywhere in Lebanon? Thanks for all your time and assistance. JL

Linnea, Dave, Some of the old stones are still in the cemetery, BUT I was told at the Leb. Historical that some of the graves were moved to Mt. Lebanon cemetery.I heard some stones are even inside the church(basement). The one older lady in the Historical society said that when she and her brother were very small they watched them removing the coffins/bodies for going to Mt. Leb.( and I think another cemetery, maybe Ebenezer) and one coffin came open and it had a body in it that went to dust, BUT there were scratches on the inside of the coffin lid and the men removing the bodies said that this person must of been buried alive(but appeared dead at the time). Her little brother was so scared. Ask Christine Mason. Pat was the lady that remembers it from being little. But I think you are correct Dave about the parking lot/driveway thing, but it was years ago.That is why they moved some bodies. I thought Pat said about the lot across the street, maybe it was part of the cemetery,Linnea, you get to the historical society more then I do, ask Christine and ask Pat. Let me know then....Thanks!!!!Bev

Linnea, Dave, Some of the old stones are still in the cemetery, BUT I was told at the Leb. Historical that some of the graves were moved to Mt. Lebanon cemetery.I heard some stones are even inside the church(basement). The one older lady in the Historical society said that when she and her brother were very small they watched them removing the coffins/bodies for going to Mt. Leb.( and I think another cemetery) and one coffin came open and it had a body in it that went to dust, BUT there were scratches on the inside of the coffin lid and the men removing the bodies said that this person must of been buried alive(but appeared dead at the time). The little brother was so scared. Ask Christine Mason. Pat was the lady that remembers it from being little. But I think you are correct Dave about the parking lot/driveway thing.That is why they moved some bodies. I thought Pat said about the lot across the street, maybe it was part of the cemetery,Linnea, you get to the historical society more then I do, ask Christine and ask Pat. Let me know then....Thanks!!!!Bev

At 9:01 10/22/99, Blauch, David wrote: >> >I have a question about this cemetery. > >I heard (perhaps incorrectly) that this "old" cemetery had been destroyed >recently (within the past year or two?) to make way for a parking lot or >driveway. Have I been misinformed or is the "old" cemetery really gone? >Has anyone visited the site lately? > >Dave > > Hi Dave, I believe all of the old cemetery is still intact. Yes, they did put in additional parking, but I don't *think* any of the stones were disturbed. Perhaps someone else knows for sure if a few were moved. The stones were still there on Monday when I drove through town! Was the "new" cemetery at the location of the City parking lot at 10th & Walnut? [SE corner of intersection] -Linnea

Thanks everyone on the great discussion in last two digests - JL.

> > << Does anyone know where the Tabor 1st Reformed Church is located in Lebanon > >> > I believe that is the church located at 10th St and Walnut in the city it > is the oldest church and has a cemetery behind it > I have a question about this cemetery. At one time there were two cemeteries, the "old" cemetery adjacent to the church and the "new" cemetery across the street. Many years ago the "new" cemetery was destroyed. About 8 or 10 years ago I visited the church and examined the "old" cemetery. I heard (perhaps incorrectly) that this "old" cemetery had been destroyed recently (within the past year or two?) to make way for a parking lot or driveway. Have I been misinformed or is the "old" cemetery really gone? Has anyone visited the site lately? Dave David N. Blauch, Associate Professor Department of Chemistry, Davidson College P.O. Box 1719, Davidson, NC 28036 Tel. (704) 892-2308 FAX (704) 892-2709 http://www.chm.davidson.edu/dablauch/dablauch.html

<< Does anyone know where the Tabor 1st Reformed Church is located in Lebanon >> I believe that is the church located at 10th St and Walnut in the city it is the oldest church and has a cemetery behind it Barbara Ebright

Tabor Church is on 10th Street, Route 72 South, between Chestnut Street and Walnut Street, Route 422 East. Betty > Hi, > > Does anyone know where the Tabor 1st Reformed Church is located in Lebanon > County. I know that is where Peter Lehman and Elizabeth Gilbert were > married in 1827, but I don't know what city or town it is in. Also does > anyone of a good source for church records from 1790 thru 1830. The county > records don't go back that far. > > Kathy Pereira > > > ==== PALEBANO Mailing List ==== > To contact the owner of the PALEBANO Mailing List, please contact: > ltmiller@mail.ptd.net >

-----Original Message----- From: Robert Pereira <pereira@mixcom.com> To: PALEBANO-L@rootsweb.com <PALEBANO-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 11:54 AM Subject: [PALEBANO] Church location >Hi, > >Does anyone know where the Tabor 1st Reformed Church is located in Lebanon >County. I know that is where Peter Lehman and Elizabeth Gilbert were >married in 1827, but I don't know what city or town it is in. Also does >anyone of a good source for church records from 1790 thru 1830. The county >records don't go back that far. > >Kathy Pereira Kathy, Tabor Reformed is smack in the middle of Lebanon(City) near the intersection of Rt. 422 and Rt. 72, according to the Cemetery map I bought at the Lebanon County Historical Society. They have the records you want, also. They have a web site at: http://www.leba.net/ and email at : History@leba.net and snail mail at: 924 Cumberland St. Lebanon, PA 17042-5186 Bruce Fosnocht

Forwarded from: JGan754040@aol.com >Delivered-To: ltmiller@mail.ptd.net >Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 07:54:01 -0700 (PDT) >X-From_: JGan754040@aol.com Thu Oct 21 07:54:00 1999 >From: JGan754040@aol.com >Old-Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 10:53:28 EDT >Subject: (no subject) >To: palebano-l@rootsweb.com >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Status: U >X-Diagnostic: help sent > >Look for info on these family, Gano,Ganoe,mcaffee,mcafee any thing would >help. > > Thank You JAMES GANOE JGAN754040@AOL.COM. >

Hi, Does anyone know where the Tabor 1st Reformed Church is located in Lebanon County. I know that is where Peter Lehman and Elizabeth Gilbert were married in 1827, but I don't know what city or town it is in. Also does anyone of a good source for church records from 1790 thru 1830. The county records don't go back that far. Kathy Pereira

John, I can't speak for all states, but the microfilm of my gg-grandfather's will in Fairfield County, Ohio, 1833, was of a copy made by the Circuit Court Clerk in the County's Will Book. I think the original was kept by the family. Shirley in Missouri "John Light-Monterey,CA" wrote: > I am hoping someone familiar with SE PA (spec. Lebanon/Lancaster/Berks) > county wills of the 1800s that can help me. I recently photographed and > copied some wills and found some curious idiosyncrasies. > I had assumed any will in "the vault", as it were, would be an > original. I noticed in one case that a will in its microfilmed copy was > not in the same handwriting and with the same signature as the "hard > copy" in the file. I also noticed that the seals for this particular > will varied, with the microfilmed copy having the word "seal" surrounded > by a squiggly line forming a circle, and the "hard copy" with a drawn > seal and the letters "LS". Other wills had either a handwritten > squiggly circle with the letters "LS" or an actual stamp with the > letters LS, or just the word "seal" in the drawn circle. Some wills I > consider to be originals because there is an "appearance" of an > authentic signature (such as the handwriting differing from that of the > text and/or the distinction of apparent training in German script). Two > wills are from different families, so the initials "LS" within the seal > don't seem to have familial significance as I expected; perhaps the seal > belonged to any attorney or other officer of the court drawing up a > will, kind of like today's notary seal? In one case the seal has a red > background (maybe wax) with a cut out of a multi-tipped star attached > over the red area and the letters written in the center of the star. > Does anyone know what LS stands for? Is it just coincidence that these > seals appear on the wills with likely original signatures, or if not, > what about those wills that also have strikingly different signatures > from the text, but with only the squiggly circle and the word "seal"? > Is this the convention used when the maker of a will didn't have their > own seal or is it a convention for the copies of originals, but what > about the distinctive signature on these, are they likely just a clerk's > affected attempt at making a signature? These signatures are online (in > PDF format, use bookmark view)- > http://www.redshift.com/~jblight/willsign.pdf > for anyone interested or who can help me evaluate some degree of most > likely authentic (if that is possible?) and I will post them to my web > site, but thought I'd put out a feeler or two first. Can anyone point > me in the direction of a 19th century "wills" expert or list group? > Thank-you - JL > > ==== PALEBANO Mailing List ==== > For a great list of most of the on-line mailing lists (and ability to subscribe to them) check out John Fuller's Internet Resources web page: > <http://members.aol.com/johnf14246/internet.html>

Hi, I've been to the court houses you mentioned for Berks/Lancaster/Lebanon counties. There are different systems and different results you get from each one, depending upon how you got your info. The Berks County wills are indexed at www.berksregofwills.com and you can search their site and send for records. On my visits there I had printed copies of those index pages and they pulled the actual files for me to copy the original. They would be those you have with the seals and actual signatures, not the squiggly lines. I believe if you ask for a copy of the originals to be sent to you, they will do that. At Lebanon, they have index books and you are able to pull the original file yourself, with the originals as described above. At Lancaster, the older wills are filed in the archives and they have books available with the wills recopied (or translated if they were written in German) in those books and they appear with the squiggly lines you mentioned. They will pull the original if you ask and I've gotten those copies. They will also stamp the copy as a copy of the original. Film copies for estate records (including wills) are available at the PA Archives, but they are copies of the books for the most part (the re-copied version). Personally, if I just want the info. the re-copied version is fine. If I'm searching for the "one that came over" then I want a copy of the original. Hope that helps. Sherrie Yuhas work-work-work@msn.com Visit my website at: http://homepages.msn.com/HobbyCt/work-work-work/ -----Original Message----- From: John Light-Monterey,CA <jblight@redshift.com> To: PALEBANO-L@rootsweb.com <PALEBANO-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Thursday, October 21, 1999 12:59 AM Subject: [PALEBANO] Wills, signatures and seals >I am hoping someone familiar with SE PA (spec. Lebanon/Lancaster/Berks) >county wills of the 1800s that can help me. I recently photographed and >copied some wills and found some curious idiosyncrasies. >I had assumed any will in "the vault", as it were, would be an >original. I noticed in one case that a will in its microfilmed copy was >not in the same handwriting and with the same signature as the "hard >copy" in the file. I also noticed that the seals for this particular >will varied, with the microfilmed copy having the word "seal" surrounded >by a squiggly line forming a circle, and the "hard copy" with a drawn >seal and the letters "LS". Other wills had either a handwritten >squiggly circle with the letters "LS" or an actual stamp with the >letters LS, or just the word "seal" in the drawn circle. Some wills I >consider to be originals because there is an "appearance" of an >authentic signature (such as the handwriting differing from that of the >text and/or the distinction of apparent training in German script). Two >wills are from different families, so the initials "LS" within the seal >don't seem to have familial significance as I expected; perhaps the seal >belonged to any attorney or other officer of the court drawing up a >will, kind of like today's notary seal? In one case the seal has a red >background (maybe wax) with a cut out of a multi-tipped star attached >over the red area and the letters written in the center of the star. >Does anyone know what LS stands for? Is it just coincidence that these >seals appear on the wills with likely original signatures, or if not, >what about those wills that also have strikingly different signatures >from the text, but with only the squiggly circle and the word "seal"? >Is this the convention used when the maker of a will didn't have their >own seal or is it a convention for the copies of originals, but what >about the distinctive signature on these, are they likely just a clerk's >affected attempt at making a signature? These signatures are online (in >PDF format, use bookmark view)- >http://www.redshift.com/~jblight/willsign.pdf >for anyone interested or who can help me evaluate some degree of most >likely authentic (if that is possible?) and I will post them to my web >site, but thought I'd put out a feeler or two first. Can anyone point >me in the direction of a 19th century "wills" expert or list group? >Thank-you - JL > >______________________________

This is in response to John and David's comments and questions about wills. I have not had access to any wills in Lebanon County but have in several other states and counties. I thought that the original will was taken to the court when the person died, and it was recorded (copied) into the records by the court clerk. I have read that wills where the signature was a 'mark' of some kind, that the clerk was suppose to copy the 'mark' as near as possible, but that otherwise he would write the signature. Then the original will was filed in the metal box file (can't remember what you call these) at the courthouse. If the loose records (papers in the metal boxes) were microfilmed then you could view an original will with the original signature. If the Probate Books were filmed, you would view the will as copied by the court clerk. I have seen some Maryland wills on microfilm that were from Probate Books that the German signatures looked authentic and wondered about them. Now I am eager to learn if they could be the actual signature. Please respond here, so we will all know. June

This is a response to John's questions about official seals and the authenticity of signatures on documents. I found the following on a web page listing Army Regulations regarding Notarial Services. I have a feeling it is applicable here. http://150.226.45.85/LA/regs/27-55/27-55.html "Some state statutes and foreign laws require that instruments conveying real or personal property be executed under seal. Therefore, in the space immediately preceding the signature of the individual selling property or appointing an attorney in fact to do so, there should appear the statement "Witness by my hand and seal," or words to that effect. In most jurisdictions, the typing, printing, or writing of the word "SEAL " or the symbol "LS" after the signature will complete the sealing of the instrument. A seal need only be used if required by applicable law." Later in the document there is an indication that "LS" stands for "Legal Seal". In looking at wills, I had been operating under the assumption that one could either view original wills (either the documents themselves, which are readily available at the Lebanon County Courthouse, or microfilm copies, which are available at other area courthouses) or transcriptions of wills in will books. Obviously the transcription in the will book cannot have the testator's authentic signature whereas the original will must. I suppose it is possible that a second (or third) copy of the will was made by some third party and it was a copy of this sort that found its way into the files instead of the original. Depending upon the care used in preparing such a copy, it might be difficult to distinguish the copy from the original. Out of curiousity, is there a legal requirement that it be the original will placed on file (in cases where the will is indeed present in the files) or is it legally permissible to submit a copy of the original? Looking at the pdf file that John provided a link to, I see that some of the signatures are written in German script. I am inclined to think that these are authentic, but of course I have no way to verify that. > http://www.redshift.com/~jblight/willsign.pdf I'm eager to read the comments from someone with expert knowledge on probate procedures. Dave David N. Blauch, Associate Professor Department of Chemistry, Davidson College P.O. Box 1719, Davidson, NC 28036 Tel. (704) 892-2308 FAX (704) 892-2709 http://www.chm.davidson.edu/dablauch/dablauch.html

I am hoping someone familiar with SE PA (spec. Lebanon/Lancaster/Berks) county wills of the 1800s that can help me. I recently photographed and copied some wills and found some curious idiosyncrasies. I had assumed any will in "the vault", as it were, would be an original. I noticed in one case that a will in its microfilmed copy was not in the same handwriting and with the same signature as the "hard copy" in the file. I also noticed that the seals for this particular will varied, with the microfilmed copy having the word "seal" surrounded by a squiggly line forming a circle, and the "hard copy" with a drawn seal and the letters "LS". Other wills had either a handwritten squiggly circle with the letters "LS" or an actual stamp with the letters LS, or just the word "seal" in the drawn circle. Some wills I consider to be originals because there is an "appearance" of an authentic signature (such as the handwriting differing from that of the text and/or the distinction of apparent training in German script). Two wills are from different families, so the initials "LS" within the seal don't seem to have familial significance as I expected; perhaps the seal belonged to any attorney or other officer of the court drawing up a will, kind of like today's notary seal? In one case the seal has a red background (maybe wax) with a cut out of a multi-tipped star attached over the red area and the letters written in the center of the star. Does anyone know what LS stands for? Is it just coincidence that these seals appear on the wills with likely original signatures, or if not, what about those wills that also have strikingly different signatures from the text, but with only the squiggly circle and the word "seal"? Is this the convention used when the maker of a will didn't have their own seal or is it a convention for the copies of originals, but what about the distinctive signature on these, are they likely just a clerk's affected attempt at making a signature? These signatures are online (in PDF format, use bookmark view)- http://www.redshift.com/~jblight/willsign.pdf for anyone interested or who can help me evaluate some degree of most likely authentic (if that is possible?) and I will post them to my web site, but thought I'd put out a feeler or two first. Can anyone point me in the direction of a 19th century "wills" expert or list group? Thank-you - JL

Hello All, For all those who are researching the surname FASNACHT, FAUSNAUGHT, FOSNACHT, or any other variation, there is a new mailing list for us to share and compare information. Nancy Devore Williams is the list owner, and I will help as much as I can. I am descended from Johannes FASSNACHT, born 1727 in Germany, and immigrated to Lancaster County, Pennsylvania in 1750. That is my primary line. I also have family lines from his second wife, and two other FASENACHTS who immigrated to the same area in 1749. My approach to FOSNOCHT genealogy is to find them all, and then sort them into one of these four families. If you are researching this name in any part of the US or Europe, please join us. We will be happy to add your families to our group. Bruce Fosnocht