On 23 Mar 2007 (below) someone posted: [Minor Rant: For those who don't want to subscribe to this or other lists, could you please post your email address in the body of your messages? I don't want to go through PAGREENE and other archives to find out who you are. The gc-gateway posts make your posts anonymous and don't make genealogical exchange easy. Is anyone at Rootsweb listening?] I'm going to cover several topics on ARCHER/McCLELLAND/CHURCH/LINCICOME relationships in response to three postings to this list in the last 6 weeks. One of my replies seems never to have appeared here, so I repeat it below. This my attempt to "kill off" some myths about these people that I see repeated frquently on and off line. Also I'm also going to take Howard Leckey to task for inaccurate citation of primary records, inaccurate statements about dates and existence of wills for the Church's and for leaping to conclusions without using evidence available to him locally. Historians are not always the best genealogists. Secondary sources may be convenient to quote, but until you see the originals that are still available, you cannot be sure of the "facts" in secondary sources. =================== Forwarded Message =================== Message: 3 Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 03:52:35 -0000 From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PAGRE] Henry Church b. 1779, his daughter Elizabeth b. abt. 1799 To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Author: churchgenes Surnames: Archer, Church Classification: queries Message Board URL: http://boards.rootsweb.com/localities.northam.usa.states. pennsylvania.counties.greene/10840.1.1/mb.ashx Message Board Post: I am also working on a Sarah or Susan Archer who may have married a George Church (born abt. 1769). Are Sarah/Susan Archer and George Church related to Henry Church and Jane Archer? If so, How? =================== End Forwarded Message =================== ANSWER: There is no primary source evidence to establish the ancestry of either ARCHER girl with certainty. Both are probably descendants of Patrick Archer based on the evidence I cite below. The Archer/Church relationship is quite complex extending beyond the George and Henry Church connection to Joseph Archer (brother of James of Patrick) who md. Margaret Church, dau of George and Jane Church (Leckey, pp. 308, 345) based on the circumstantial fact that George and Jane lived next door to Joseph and that Jane Church, wife of George, named Margaret ARCHER as a daughter in Margaret's will. James ARCHER proved George Church's will dated 16 Apr 1794. He did not die intestate, as Lecky asserts on p. 369. (Greene Co., Wills Bk 1, p. 27 and witnessed Jane Church's will (Greene Co., Wills Bk 1, p. 190) on the same date that James proved George's signature on 29 Jan 1814, in Greene Co, PA (not 1819 as Lecky says on p. 369). If you want more I'll exchange on the subject. I've done 30 years of research in PA and OH on these folks. The probable relationship of Henry and George Church and wives is that Henry Church b. 1779 is the same who md. 1. Jane Archer 2. Sarah Rinehart and was the son of George Church and Jane (last name not proved, but both Leckey and (gasp!) W.F. Horn of the "Horn Papers," Vol. 2 claim without evidence that she was Jane Gilmore) - see Greene Co., PA wills 24 Feb 1819 in which George named his wife Jane and son Henry (Greene Co., PA Wills, Vol 1, p. 27; also Howard Leckey's "Tenmile Country", p. 308 and 370 and and Will of Isabella Faris, dated Mar 1787, Frederick Co, MD Liber GM, No. 2, Folio 324. Isabella named a George Church who md. Jane as Isabella's son in law. Also see: Orphans Court Record Greene Co, PA Vol 2, no 1, p. 148 June Term 1820 dealing with a chain of title by later owners of land that Robert McClelland had willed to his granddaughters Jane and Elizabeth Archer. The chain of title explicitly said that Jane Archer married Henry Church and sold her part of the plantation to Joseph Archer (brother of the James Archer of Patrick who appeared in Robert McClelland's will, below). James and Joseph Archer with Robert Hatheway were executors of Robert McClelland's will, the two Archer's probably being relations to the two granddaughters. The father of Jane and Elizabeth Archer in McClelland's will is not identified with certainty even though James Archer (of Patrick) is a beneficiary of Robert McClelland's will. (Greene Co., PA Wills (Washington Co., PA Will Book 1, p. 140) - more below on the fact that James Archer (of Patrick) could not be the father of Jane and Elizabeth Archer, granddaughters of Robert McClelland. Here is my earlier post that I never saw appear on the list that adds more on the CHURCH/ARCHER relationships: =================== Forwarded Second Message =================== In a message posted by Frank W. Archer : Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 23:01:59 -0000 Subject: Re: [PAGRE] Henry Church b. 1779, his daughter Elizabeth b. >I have information about Jane Archer. I don't know whether this will help >you or not, but here it is: Jane Archer was born on 20 Feb 1778 in Wheeling >Creek, Greene Co,PA. She died in 1816. She married Henry Church in 1796 in >Greene Co., PA. She was the daughter of Capt. James Archer and Jane >Linicome. She and Henry Church had 8 children. The second child was >Elizabeth Church who was born in 1798 in Greene Co., PA. I am sorry, but I >don't know anything about Rineharts. >Frank Archer [email protected] The above post prompted me to update and correct an earlier post that DID appear on the list under Subject: Who were the parents of Jane Archer who md. Henry Church? In the earlier post, I quoted a passage from: Andrew J. Waychoff in "Local History of Greene County and Southwestern Pennsylvania", reprinted by the Greene County Historical Society, 1975, Waynesburg, PA, 1975 (ISBN 87-01-216-9), Item 160 (p. 77, unnumbered pages) cites Rev. Hannah's description of the Indian raid, scalping of a Jane Archer, the mother of Henry Church [b. 1805, according to Leckey and Horn]. Waychoff's wording in the paragraph below strongly suggested a family relationship but that James Archer was not Jane's parent because the account clearly describes James as not Jane's parent or sibling. "Archer Family Massacred" "Another resident of Franklin township with whom I was acquainted was Henry Church, a descendant of the Archer family, all of whom had been murdered by the Indians save one son and one daughter. The daughter, Mr. Church's mother, had been scapled by the savages, and feigning death, escaped with her life and lived to a good old age and to rear a large family of children. After the cruel death of her parents, brothers and sisters Mr. [James] Archer swore vengeance against the Indians..." The original passage came from "History of Greene County, PA by Rev. William Hanna, 1882 (reprinted by Clossen Press, Dec 1983.), pp. 265-266. It was subsequently repeated verbatim by Waychoff in the work cited above. The birth date for Jane Archer, but not a birth place, originally appeared in in Hanna's book on pp. 271-272 which also describes Sarah Rinehart as the second wife and lists all of the children by both wives. Hannah in his book says he copied the Henry Church/Jane Archer/Sarah Rinehart data from a document owned by John Church who was married to Elizabeth Fordyce, living near Rogersville. The family data, was repeated again, by others, Howard Leckey in his "Tenmile Country" (1977 reprint) pp. 328, 370, but no where does it give the birth place for Jane. Also Lecky on pp. 243, 345 and 370 describes the Indian raid when Jane was scalped. On p. 243, Leckey quotes the Draper Manuscripts to describe events on the day of the scalping. (Lyman Draper who was a collector and oral history transcriber of Rev. War veterans, among others, and later the Dirctor of the Wisconsin Historical Society where the original manuscsripts are today. They have been microfilmed and can be viewed in many major libraries) Leckey's "transcription" is badly flawed in the paragraph dealing with the scalping. I have reviewed this section of the manuscript on microfilm at the Library of Congress. Draper Manuscript 37 J 168 - Lyman Draper's interview with William Harrod, Jr. son of the Greene Co., PA military commander, Capt William Harrod, in November 1845. William Harrod, Jr. would have been about 10 years old when this event occurred and it is not stated by how he came to have knowledge of the event. "About 1783 Indians fell upon the families of Robert McClennan and James Archer, whose families WERE IN (my emphasis) the same cabin, about three fourths of a mile from Jackson's Fort were came (sic) one foggy morning - eight or nine of the two families were killed, a few escaped. Jane Archer, a small girl was tomahawked and scalped, and left for dead but recovered." goldie warne <[email protected]> on 18 Mar 2007, recently posted a transcription of 37 J 168 that appears to be Leckey's incorrect version ("..living in the same cabin...") of this episode. Leckey on pp. 243 and 345 says that the Archer and McClennan families were LIVING in the same house, significantly changing the context by implyng a relationship between the two families. Being in the same house could have meant one of the two families was visiting the other. The implied relationship is carried over by Leckey when interpreting Robert McClelland's undated will, proved on 7 Jul 1791 (Washington Co., PA Will Book 1, p. 140) in which James Archer is named (no relationship given) and the two girls, Jane (the one scalped above) and Elizabeth Archer were identified as Robert's granddaughters. The leap of logic made by many genealogists, including Leckey, is that James was the father of the two girls. Given the wording of Hannah's account, it would appear that the girls were the children of another Archer, not James, who was excluded as Jane's parent, by Hannah in his narrative saying that Jane's parents had been killed in the 1783 Indian raid. James was very much alive after 1783. My theory is that Jane's father was an unknown son of Joseph Archer's, James' brother. Joseph's property was contiguous to George Church, father of Henry Church who married Jane Archer. The father also could have been Michael Archer, brother of James, who was killed by Indians in September 1786, although Jane's birth date of 1778 would have made Michael (b. c. 1760?) older than I have thought. As for the above statement that asserts that Jane Lincicome was the mother of Jane: Jane Lincicome could not have been the mother of Jane who married Henry Church. James was married to a Sophia and appeared with her on a deed of sale of James' property to William Rhodes dated 28 Dec 1793 (Greene Co., PA Deeds Vol 5, pp. 414-415). Jane Lincicome never appears in any known record of Greene or Washington Cos, PA as James' wife because she was James' second (or third?) wife. Jane Lincicome was probably the widow of Joseph Lincicome. Nathan Lincicome, son of Joseph, frequented (maybe lived in) the cabin with James Archer. Widowers married widows in those days, not unmarried girls. Jane Lincicome as James' wife first appeared in a book by Martin B. Archer for his book "The Genealogical History of the Archer Family", F.J. Heer & Co., Columbus, OH 1919, pp, 8, 88, 93. He conducted interviews of James' grandchildren during the 1880's to the 1910's. None of those interviewed named Sophia by name as James' wife. She was lost to their family's oral history, having died before James married Jane Lincicome. Conclusion: None of James' children were the children of Jane Lncicome. If she was the widow of Joseph Lincicome and mother of Nathan Lincicome c. 1770-26 Feb 1845, she would have been beyond child bearing age by 1793 when Sophia was alive and married to James, possibly as late as 1803, the birth date of James' last known child, Nathan Archer, my grgr grandfather), Nathan Archer, b. 15 Feb 1803 (my photo of his original tombstone). The last known child of James', Nathan Archer, named one of his daughters Sophia. None of Nathan's children was named Jane. James married Jane Lincicome as his second wife in what was then the southern district of Ohio Co. VA in present day Marshall and Wetzel Cos., WV (Deeds from Virginia State Library and tax records). I have never found deeds of sale of the Virginia property, which if they exist, would have named a wife, if living. I've never found in any of the counties on either side of the Ohio River a record with Jane and James Archer as spouses. Jane Lincicome also may have died in Ohio Co., VA as there is no record that she ever accompanied James and family from Ohio after 1807 (tax records) when he moved to Monroe (now Noble Co.) OH. Oral tradition says that James wanted to be buried with his wife, but the wagon carrying his body north out of present-day Noble Co. ca. 1832 toward (W.) Virginia was stuck in the spring mud, and he had to be buried quickly in an unmarked grave in the nearest local Catholic cemetery west of Temperanceville, OH, embalming not yet being available. Maybe once and for all we can kill this "myth" that Jane Lincicome was the mother of James' children. The records simply don't support this. Martin Archer's book, the only record where Jane Lincicome appears is oral history, not documented genealogy. =================== End Forwarded Second Message =================== George W. Archer (Simon,Stephen,Stephen,Nathan,James,Patrick) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Archer Association - an ARCHER Surname Clearinghouse George Archer Internet: [email protected] PO Box 6233 McLean, VA 22106 http://www.archercousins.com/ArcherAssn -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- List Administrator of ARCHER, the Archer surname mail list: To reach me about the list: [email protected] Info about the List: List-Subscribe: <http://lists9.rootsweb.com/mailman/listinfo/archer>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> (Mail Mode) <mailto:[email protected]?subject=subscribe> (Digest Mode) List-Unsubscribe: <http://lists9.rootsweb.com/mailman/listinfo/archer>, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> List-Post: <mailto:[email protected]> List-Help: <mailto:[email protected]?subject=help> List-Archive: <http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=archer> ------------------------------------------------------------------------