This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------7B787148161C Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Listers: I was forwarded this from the Westmoreland List. This is quite lenghthly but is very informative. Just thought some of you may be interested as I was. Sincerely... Donna Heller Zinn of Cumberland Co., PA. --------------7B787148161C Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-From_: PAWESTMO-L-request@rootsweb.com Sun Oct 3 21:02:02 1999 >From bin Sun Oct 3 21:02:02 1999 Received: from bl-14.rootsweb.com (bl-14.rootsweb.com [204.212.38.30]) by emh1.pa.net (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17913 for <djzinn@pa.net>; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:02:01 -0400 Received: (from slist@localhost) by bl-14.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA06754; Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 18:01:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Jlktrees@aol.com Message-ID: <48cbfb33.2529561f@aol.com> Date: Sun, 3 Oct 1999 21:00:15 EDT Old-To: ILWAYNE-L@rootsweb.com, OHBELMON-L@rootsweb.com, OHMONROE-L@rootsweb.com, OHROOTS=L@rootsweb.com, TUSCARA-L@rootsweb.com, OHIO-VALLEY-L@rootsweb.com, washington-oh-digest@genweb.net, PABUCKS-L@rootsweb.com, PAFAYETT-L@rootsweb.com Old-CC: PACHESTE-L@rootsweb.com, PAGREENE-L@rootsweb.com, PAHUNTIN-L@rootsweb.com, PAWASHIN-L@rootsweb.com, PAWESTMO-L@rootsweb.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 41 Subject: [PAWESTMO-L] German burial policies Resent-Message-ID: <4O6A5.A.UlB.Qx_93@bl-14.rootsweb.com> To: PAWESTMO-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: PAWESTMO-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <PAWESTMO-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/8347 X-Loop: PAWESTMO-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: PAWESTMO-L-request@rootsweb.com First an apology. I type very fast and typed my name wrong, and then used auto spell check and since I also don't see as well as I used to I accidentally let my letter go out under the name of Julienne. Wrong it is Jerilyn Sorry I have been very fortunate these past 19-15 years to travel a lot of the world and as I am very interested in the people and their customs I see more than just scenery. I do do the scenery bits, but love the old churches, buildings, museums. I am astounded at how many poor serfs must have died building the tall churches of Europe. This turned out to be very long so if you want - just delete me and go on. Several questions came my way about the cemetery policies in Europe. 1. I do not know if they dig the bones up or if they are gone at the end of the time but will find out. Probably depends on the amount of time you rented your space. 2. I am assuming the rental time starts at the time you purchase the lot. Hadn't really given it any thought before, but that would make sense. I am sure that if the family keeps renting the space they just go on top of each other. 3. One answer said that in England they consider embalming barbaric so they probably don't do it. Particularly today as very environment conscious and that would be putting chemicals in the soil. 4. Other answers brought out the way of the Indians who built pyres and burned their ancestors. Some Indian Tribes put them on the platform in the air and left them. When an Eskimo outlived their usefulness to the community, they just went into the wilderness to die. 5 One answer talked about being in Dublin where they were buried in the dry catacomb and have turned all leatherly. These were the priests and Nuns. I have seen the following in a church in Germany and one in Switzerland for the burial of Saints. They are buried in glass coffins which are kept at the front of the church. They are in their good clothes and are leaned as if on their side and using one arm to hold their head up. This is really odd. The clothes are rotting, but the bones are still OK. I had seen this years ago, but couldn't remember where and we found it again. These were both in Benedictine Monasteries, but I am sure that is not exclusive to them. Will continue with some of our experiences. You have to understand that I have no fear of cemeteries nor have I ever had. In the small towns you visit them often and never forget them on Memorial Day. Our family probably put flowers on 3/4 of the graves every year. My mother, age 82, is still doing it. If we knew the families were too far away or no descendants left to remember the older ones, my mother takes care of it. Plants peonies, iris, etc. Out in western Kansas we don't have as much rain as the East so can't do a lot, but what she can. When I first started this obsession (one of love but an obsession anyway), I used to visit many cemeteries and when the children were young, they were all given the names I needed and on vacations which I carefully scheduled to travel through areas that I needed information from, the four would fan out and yell when they found a name I needed. It is a joke in the family now. I have always had a fascination with the topic as well as medieval history and thus types of torture used by our ancestors. A large paper in high school convinced me that man was not always nice to another man. I am such a softy I can't kill a bug and that is probably why my fascination. Anyway, that might be why I do visit some of the places I do. Now for the travels. In Germany there is not a funeral in a church. They have chapels, I guess you call them that, in each cemetery and it is from there the service is held. No following a hearse, etc. I don't know where that came from. They are buried very soon and as I said in a white shroud. Czechoslovakia was about the same except that I found so many tombstones that had pictures of the deceased on them. I have also seen this at the Czech cemeteries in this country. I find this really great. A lot of the cemeteries in Czechoslovakia had a big stone and were usually covered totally with a large granite slab. Then there were sitting on the slab several small urn types for those who were cremated - again with pictures. We were hunting my husbands families roots at the time and was amazing to find the town they came from that had 9 houses in the 1870's still has 9 houses. As I understand it, they are quite dull on the outside but very nice on the inside - this was to prevent things being taken away during the Communist Regime. When we found his family tombstone it was labeled the family of KOSKAN. Now there were also KOSTKAN's in the same cemetery. Seems some were Catholic and some were Protestant -not sure which, but think KOSKAN were the Protestants. Still working on that. In Rome we took a tour of the Catacombs. I saw not a single bone so asked how can this be the Catacombs with no bones. This was my answer. Many ha been robbed through the years and what was left was not on the tour any more as they had too many people feint. Consequently I got another tour to see how it was done. Paris- When Napoleon rebuilt the city he had to dig up many many cemeteries. He left a beautiful city. At least he didn't build over them. All the bones from each cemetery was kept together and put in the Catacombs under the city and each labeled as to what cemetery they came from and years of use and anything else they might know. How they arranged the bones you can read in the Czech section of this dissertation - guess I had better call it that. The last time I was in Paris I decided to tour the Catacombs. Husband was in meetings all day so I went to the entrance, stood in line (yes it is a big tourist attraction) and paid my money and went down. I am expecting a short little trip. Three hours later I came up far away. They wind all over under the city and I have no idea where I was. Many, many of the tunnels are closed off. Thank God, you would never get back. During World War II, the French Resistance used the Catacombs for their headquarters with no problems. The Germans and others were afraid to go down there in the dark with all the bones.(So they say) In Prague we visited a very very old Jewish cemetery. Here they also were burying one on top of the other. What was interesting is that when they dig for the next person they remove the headstone, bury the new person, put the old headstone back on and add a new headstone. Some of the graves had 7 or 8 headstones. As you know Judaism does not allow cremation-at least that is what I understand. Now the next description does get macabre so if you have a weak stomach - quit reading. I said I would get back to the bone churches. Originally, the bones were all dug up and piled in the crypts of the churches to make way for new graves. A lot of these were the result of the Plague many many years ago. At the one I visited, someone had taken the time to make all sorts of church objects out of the bones. To say it was weird is putting it mildly. One Monstrance (forgot how to spell it) was made using every bone in the human body. The chandelier was made from bones. You would have to have seen it to believe it. No pictures, but I bought postcards. What bones were left were piled very nearly in arches along the sides. Large leg bones all stacked neatly like logs with the skulls sitting on top and all the rest of the extra bones piled behind.. As I said before I know of two Czechoslovakia and one in Italy but there may be more. One more part of the world and I will quit. As you know the Orient has a bad population problem and woman are not allowed to choose how many children they can have in many of the countries. I didn't get into the burial in China other than the Emperors, but in Japan we visited the oddest garden - very sad. There was a shrine covered with probably 5 to 6 hundred small dolls (10 to 15 inches tall). Each doll represented a dead baby, either from abortion or still birth. The numbers were overwhelming and then we were told that they only stay one month and are replaced. This was only for this area of Japan. How sad, but their way of remembering their lost ones. Sorry to end on such a sad note. Travel is fun and like one of the responders to my first missive, it is through the customs of the people and meeting those of other countries that we can perhaps make this a more peaceful country. I have found that wherever I go, people have the same wants for their families. Their customs are different and they go at it a different way, but each wants what is best for their children and none want war or killing. This drive for power causes such disorder in life. We hosted exchange students for 15 years and what a blessing. How can you go to war when you have friends in the country you are supposed to be mad at? OK back to chasing the elusive ancestor. Hope you enjoyed the discourse and I am ready to hit the court houses again. Jerilyn Koskan Orland Park, Illinois ==== PAWESTMO Mailing List ==== To contact Nate Zipfel, Listmaster click below: mailto:nate@pa-roots.com --------------7B787148161C--