You cant be sure about the numbering I have seen too many census records where the head (first person) of a family is listed with the family above. All sorts of entry errors occurred as they copied their working papers into the final copies. The first thing that stands out is that they used ditto marks for the surnames of the second family. Usually dittos are used within a single family. I would look at the land records. William is listed as a farm laborer and Joel as a farmer. They may in fact all be on the same farm. As for your original question of whose mother is who, I would say there are 3 obvious possibilities Mary died in 1850 or 1851 and Joel married Nancy who is mother of all children Mary died about 1853 possible due to childbirth of second child and William is her child and all the rests are Nancy's Mary died about 1857 and only Amanda belongs to Nancy Of course all of these are suppositions and may all be wrong. I was taught to look for second marriages even if the wife is the same name if there is a break of 3-5 years between children. The other possibility in children who did not survive to be listed on the census. Have you followed any of the other children to see if you can find information on their parents? Julia In a message dated 12/7/2010 7:50:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, lilagarner@hotmail.com writes: Sorry I didn't reply earlier, Julia. Hotmail has begun to bunch all messages together, and I only now saw your reply My belief is that Elizabeth Denton was living with the "Dauphin" (Daffron) family, because the household number for William Denton is *after* Elizabeth's name. Since Nancy is not with Jonathan and Elizabeth Denton in 1850, she either isn't their daughter, was living elsewhere, or wasn't even a Denton. > From: FamRSearch@aol.com > Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:21:18 -0500 > To: paf-5-users@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Inderminate mother > > Did you notice that in 1850 Census, just above your Joel Daffron (age 20) > and Mary (age 18), is the family of Jonathan Denton (age 58? and Elizabeth > (age 58) Jonas (age 32) and Isaac (age 14). > > This matches the Elizabeth Denton (age 67) living with Joel Dauphin (age > 35) in 1860 census. However, notice next person listed after Elizabeth is > William Denton (age 37) with Martha (age 47). So was she living with Joel > Dauphin or William Denton? > > Julia > > > In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:27:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > singhals@erols.com writes: > > Lila Garner wrote: > > > > Hi Listers, > > > > Someone has helped me find my William Dafford after a 25-year search. He > knew his name was "not exactly right" but there is enough evidence to > connect him to Joel Daffron. Joel "Dauphin" is found on the 1850 census of > Hamilton county, Tennessee; Joel "Doffin" in 1860 (I've added the variations on > the indexes at Ancestry.) > > > > Joel had a wife Mary 18, born Tennessee, literate, in 1850. > > > > William was 8 in 1860, and Joel now had a non-literate wife Nancy, 25, > born Tennessee. > > > > 1860, Hamilton County, Tennessee > > Joel 35 born Tennessee > > Nancy 25 born Tennessee > > William 8 born Illinois (mine--we knew he was born in Illinois) > > Isaac 5 born Georgia > > Elizabeth 4 born Tennessee > > Amanda 6/12 born Tennessee > > Elizabeth Denton 67 born Tennessee > > > > The Hamilton county courthouse burned and there are no marriage records > available, nor probate etc. There are deeds and I'm going to order them > tomorrow. > > > > How will I decide which children belong to Mary and which to Nancy? > Nothing in the Illinois Statewide Marriage Index works. Naturally I'd like > Nancy to be William's mother because, with the Denton lady in the house, it's a > clue that Nancy *may* have been a Denton. > > > > I'd really like to enter William's siblings (and/or half-siblings) into > PAF, but I don't know which wife to give them to. > > > > Lila > > So, like what you are going to DO with the data once it's in > PAF? That affects whether what I'm about to say will work > for you or not. > > IF the only thing you're putting into the database is what > you intend to take to Temple (if you're LDS) or what you've > proven with an affadavit from St. Peter (if you're not LDS), > just click NEXT or DELE now. > > > > > > > If you're using your database as I do for a filing system > (g), this will at least get everyone in there: > > Attach all children to the first wife (because she's the one > who will appear first all the time in PAF), then the ones > you have some serious questions about, mark the parent link > as CHALLENGED. On Daddy, each wife, and each child, put > into the NOTES the following statement : "Until it can be > determined which wife bore which child, for the convenience > of the genealogist, all children are listed with the first > marriage. As the parents are proven, the correction will be > made." > > Then, for giggles, check the 1870 and 1880 census for > everyone. I gotta tell you Tennessee to Illinois to Georgia > to Tennessee is a bit peculiar. Ms. Denton could as easily > be Dad's maiden aunt or a 3rd cousin twice removed as his > mother-in-law. > > FWIW > > Cheryl > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PAF-5-USERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PAF-5-USERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PAF-5-USERS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

And using the break-in-children guideline, there could actually be _3_ wives, not two. William has Mother #1; Isaac & Elizabeth had Mother #2; and Amanda is a singleton. Or, this being the 1860, All the children could belong to Nancy but none of 'em to Joel, because he's her brother. Although the census enumerators /had/ requirements for the order people were to be listed, if the person giving you the information fouled it up, so did the enumerator. Since I've got a headache, I thought I'd share. ;) Cheryl FamRSearch@aol.com wrote: > You cant be sure about the numbering I have seen too many census records > where the head (first person) of a family is listed with the family above. > All sorts of entry errors occurred as they copied their working papers into > the final copies. The first thing that stands out is that they used ditto > marks for the surnames of the second family. Usually dittos are used > within a single family. I would look at the land records. William is listed > as a farm laborer and Joel as a farmer. They may in fact all be on the same > farm. > > As for your original question of whose mother is who, I would say there are > 3 obvious possibilities > > Mary died in 1850 or 1851 and Joel married Nancy who is mother of all > children > > Mary died about 1853 possible due to childbirth of second child and William > is her child and all the rests are Nancy's > > Mary died about 1857 and only Amanda belongs to Nancy > > Of course all of these are suppositions and may all be wrong. I was > taught to look for second marriages even if the wife is the same name if there > is a break of 3-5 years between children. The other possibility in children > who did not survive to be listed on the census. > > Have you followed any of the other children to see if you can find > information on their parents? > > Julia > > > In a message dated 12/7/2010 7:50:49 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, > lilagarner@hotmail.com writes: > > > Sorry I didn't reply earlier, Julia. Hotmail has begun to bunch all > messages together, and I only now saw your reply > > My belief is that Elizabeth Denton was living with the "Dauphin" (Daffron) > family, because the household number for William Denton is *after* > Elizabeth's name. > > Since Nancy is not with Jonathan and Elizabeth Denton in 1850, she either > isn't their daughter, was living elsewhere, or wasn't even a Denton. > >> From: FamRSearch@aol.com >> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 2010 08:21:18 -0500 >> To: paf-5-users@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Inderminate mother >> >> Did you notice that in 1850 Census, just above your Joel Daffron (age > 20) >> and Mary (age 18), is the family of Jonathan Denton (age 58? and > Elizabeth >> (age 58) Jonas (age 32) and Isaac (age 14). >> >> This matches the Elizabeth Denton (age 67) living with Joel Dauphin (age >> 35) in 1860 census. However, notice next person listed after Elizabeth > is >> William Denton (age 37) with Martha (age 47). So was she living with > Joel >> Dauphin or William Denton? >> >> Julia >> >> >> In a message dated 12/6/2010 7:27:15 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >> singhals@erols.com writes: >> >> Lila Garner wrote: >>> >>> Hi Listers, >> > >>> Someone has helped me find my William Dafford after a 25-year search. > He >> knew his name was "not exactly right" but there is enough evidence to >> connect him to Joel Daffron. Joel "Dauphin" is found on the 1850 census > of >> Hamilton county, Tennessee; Joel "Doffin" in 1860 (I've added the > variations on >> the indexes at Ancestry.) >>> >>> Joel had a wife Mary 18, born Tennessee, literate, in 1850. >>> >>> William was 8 in 1860, and Joel now had a non-literate wife Nancy, 25, >> born Tennessee. >> > >>> 1860, Hamilton County, Tennessee >>> Joel 35 born Tennessee >>> Nancy 25 born Tennessee >>> William 8 born Illinois (mine--we knew he was born in Illinois) >>> Isaac 5 born Georgia >>> Elizabeth 4 born Tennessee >>> Amanda 6/12 born Tennessee >>> Elizabeth Denton 67 born Tennessee >>> >> > The Hamilton county courthouse burned and there are no marriage > records >> available, nor probate etc. There are deeds and I'm going to order them >> tomorrow. >>> >>> How will I decide which children belong to Mary and which to Nancy? >> Nothing in the Illinois Statewide Marriage Index works. Naturally I'd > like >> Nancy to be William's mother because, with the Denton lady in the house, > it's a >> clue that Nancy *may* have been a Denton. >>> >>> I'd really like to enter William's siblings (and/or half-siblings) > into >> PAF, but I don't know which wife to give them to. >>> >>> Lila >> >> So, like what you are going to DO with the data once it's in >> PAF? That affects whether what I'm about to say will work >> for you or not. >> >> IF the only thing you're putting into the database is what >> you intend to take to Temple (if you're LDS) or what you've >> proven with an affadavit from St. Peter (if you're not LDS), >> just click NEXT or DELE now. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> If you're using your database as I do for a filing system >> (g), this will at least get everyone in there: >> >> Attach all children to the first wife (because she's the one >> who will appear first all the time in PAF), then the ones >> you have some serious questions about, mark the parent link >> as CHALLENGED. On Daddy, each wife, and each child, put >> into the NOTES the following statement : "Until it can be >> determined which wife bore which child, for the convenience >> of the genealogist, all children are listed with the first >> marriage. As the parents are proven, the correction will be >> made." >> >> Then, for giggles, check the 1870 and 1880 census for >> everyone. I gotta tell you Tennessee to Illinois to Georgia >> to Tennessee is a bit peculiar. Ms. Denton could as easily >> be Dad's maiden aunt or a 3rd cousin twice removed as his >> mother-in-law. >> >> FWIW >> >> Cheryl