Thanks to everyone for their input on biological and adopted parents. It seems that there is no way to show one adoptive parent and one biological parent associated with one child....so I will just make sure I have it all spelled out within the notes and in the "also known as" section. Thanks again for everyone's help. Lois ----- Original Message ----- From: "Beverly" <kngsldy@cableone.net> To: <PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:00 PM Subject: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/adoptive parents - again! >I think I have waded through all the e-mails on this subject but suspect >that somewhere in there I may have missed something, so I am going to post >my question - "my" question because it is my family group sheet I'm >discussing. > > I married, had a son and divorced. I have a fgs with my son, his > biological father and me as mother. Fine; no problem. > > After I remarried, my second husband adopted my biological son. ( I state > "biological" because I also have a "sealing" son as a result of this > second marriage, but that's another subject, isn't it?) So now my second > fgs shows my biological son as "adopted" which is correct as far as his > adopted father is concerned. However, he is still my biological son and I > have simply accepted the fact the the fgs in PAF is designed to show > relationship to fathers, not mothers. Do I like this? Not particularly; > I would like to see a designation such as "adopted/biological" as an > option but until that happens (if it ever does), I just make certain my > notes are full and complete of explanations. > If anyone has a better way, please let us all know. I know I'm not the > only mother who has this situation. > > Beverly > > -- > Mailto:kngsldy@cableone.net > Families are Forever! > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > PAF-5-USERS Mailing List Search > http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=PAF-5-USERS > >

This has been one of those interesting discussions that hasn't really resolved anything. At least that's the way I see it . . . but still, it's been fun to get the different viewpoints on the matter. I appreciate all of you contributing as you have. Just before leaving the topic altogether (I hope) I do have one other question and, of course, it DOES RELATE -- It is this: Does anyone in this PAF-5 users group list actually speak on behalf of the PAF-5 developers and/or the LDS Church position on these matters? That's who really needs to address us on it, don't you think? (Not that there aren't many intelligent people among our group. You've all tried very hard in your own way to explain your position, your viewpoint, and sometimes, your "explanation." Once I heard a bunch of people discussing a Bible Study group and since there was no theologian or minister among them, it was described as a group where "we just all get together and pool our ignorance." Not a good thing for Bible Study, I think. But, anyhow, maybe that's what we've been doing here -- just "pooling our ignorance" when it would be nice to get the official PAF-5 and/or LDS position. Fred, Brooklyn Center MN

In a message dated 6/5/2005 7:39:21 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, PAF-5-USERS-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: I hate to disagree with you, but a natural parent cannot also be an adoptive parent of their natural child. Under no adoption law that I'm aware of, is there a requirement to, or provision for, the natural parent to go through the adoption process required for a second spouse to adopt the child of his spouse and another natural parent. The natural parent's name may appear in the adoption records and it may require that parent's consent to the adoption, but the natural parent is not an adopter. Dick Cazier Lakewood, Colorado USA Unless I have completely forgotten the details, when I remarried and my husband adopted my little girl (in New York State), about 55 years ago, I was required to also adopt my child. Wilma Horton

The key to understanding this problem we are having in showing strictly correct parental relationships within the program PAF, is that within this program an individual CAN NOT have any relationship to any children OR to any parent WITHOUT ALSO BEING TIED TO A MARRIAGE. It is just impossible to do in this program, PAF (ver.5). And if you think about that for one moment, you will better understand the problem and the limitations of this software. For whatever motivation, it's the way the software was written. So the individual CAN have a single parent, whether biological, adopted or guardian but in every single case that parent, as far as PAF the software program is concerned, IS DEFINITELY MARRIED! Even if that person is only married to UNKNOWN in the "software" created marriage! Once a program user realizes and accepts that from PAF's "point of view" NO child-parent/parent-child relationship can exist or be entered WITHOUT also a marriage, then that user can work with the limitation imposed by that. Therefore within PAF the individual actually has a relationship to the Marriage, and so if the individual has ANY form of parental relationship to one person in a marriage, he MUST ALSO HAVE THE SAME parental relationship to the other person in that marriage. That is just a limitation of this software. Don't forget PAF is very much connected to LDS, a religion which has it's doctrines and philosophies and I very much suspect the decision was made to write the software this way based on some of those views. However, oddly enough, PAF DOES allow an individual to have an unlimited number of parents, but still each is always married, even if only to the polygamous UNKNOWN! And even more oddly still, within PAF an individual can simultaneously have multiple instances of every type of parent, EVEN BIOLOGICAL! The program will alert you that you have created more than one, two, three, four or more biological parent links, but it will still allow you do it. So in short, if it's your goal to show ALL children, of every type of parent-child relationship, on the single Family View Screen, then each of those children can only HAVE and only SHOW the one type of relationship to that "marriage" and therefore to both parents connected by that marriage. On the Family View Screen, for each individual child under the heading Parent Link, there will either be a blank (implying a biological relationship) or the word Adopted or the word Guardian, but always it will be the relationship to the marriage and thus to both individuals connected by that marriage. Otherwise, to be strictly accurate, one would have to create multiple instances of parents for the child, each married to UNKNOWN, and NOT connect the child to even the marriage of his biological parent to his adopted parent! And of course, then he definitely won't show on the family screen of that marriage but rather must be viewed on one or the other Parent married to UNKNOWN screens! Hope this helps, John

>I have not seen any program that can handle our modern day, mixed and >matched families. Ancestral Quest allows you to set a different parent-child relationship for each parent. It is a simple thing to do. This was a feature in Ancestral Quest, a scaled-down version of which later became PAF 4, so you know how long ago that was. Unfortunately that feature was one that was not included in what they gave the Church for PAF 4. Joan Lowrey

I think I have waded through all the e-mails on this subject but suspect that somewhere in there I may have missed something, so I am going to post my question - "my" question because it is my family group sheet I'm discussing. I married, had a son and divorced. I have a fgs with my son, his biological father and me as mother. Fine; no problem. After I remarried, my second husband adopted my biological son. ( I state "biological" because I also have a "sealing" son as a result of this second marriage, but that's another subject, isn't it?) So now my second fgs shows my biological son as "adopted" which is correct as far as his adopted father is concerned. However, he is still my biological son and I have simply accepted the fact the the fgs in PAF is designed to show relationship to fathers, not mothers. Do I like this? Not particularly; I would like to see a designation such as "adopted/biological" as an option but until that happens (if it ever does), I just make certain my notes are full and complete of explanations. If anyone has a better way, please let us all know. I know I'm not the only mother who has this situation. Beverly -- Mailto:kngsldy@cableone.net Families are Forever!

Beverly, You raise an interesting view, but I would like to point out that it will say ADOPTED even if it is the mother that adopted the child. So it is not tied to the father, but rather the software takes the non-biological relationship to mark the Parental Link column. I have not seen any program that can handle our modern day, mixed and matched families. I think it needs to be some 3 or 4 dimensional chart (there fore not able to print on paper). Alan Jones Mission Viejo, Calif. -----Original Message----- From: Beverly [mailto:kngsldy@cableone.net] Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:01 PM To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/adoptive parents - again! I think I have waded through all the e-mails on this subject but suspect that somewhere in there I may have missed something, so I am going to post my question - "my" question because it is my family group sheet I'm discussing. I married, had a son and divorced. I have a fgs with my son, his biological father and me as mother. Fine; no problem. After I remarried, my second husband adopted my biological son. ( I state "biological" because I also have a "sealing" son as a result of this second marriage, but that's another subject, isn't it?) So now my second fgs shows my biological son as "adopted" which is correct as far as his adopted father is concerned. However, he is still my biological son and I have simply accepted the fact the the fgs in PAF is designed to show relationship to fathers, not mothers. Do I like this? Not particularly; I would like to see a designation such as "adopted/biological" as an option but until that happens (if it ever does), I just make certain my notes are full and complete of explanations. If anyone has a better way, please let us all know. I know I'm not the only mother who has this situation. Beverly -- Mailto:kngsldy@cableone.net Families are Forever! ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List Search http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=PAF-5-USERS

Fred, You need to look at it this way ---------- In PAF each/any set of parents/marriage partners can have children - it is the couple (parents) that can have biological or adopted children Any one parent can be both one of the biological parents and one of the adopted parents. The duality of relationship for this particular parent is apparent when viewing the child's other parents and this parent shows up as a partner in the biological parents and as a partner in the adopted parents. Once you get your mind around this way of working - it really isn't a problem. Regards, Stewart -----Original Message----- From: HoutsRFred@aol.com [mailto:HoutsRFred@aol.com] Sent: 05 June 2005 13:36 To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted ALAN -- Sorry, but I'm not following you. I just put a sample couple in my d.b. to use for this, plus a "new" father by the mother's remarriage. Then I added a child, Jimmy, to original biological parents. When I highlight Jimmy, thinking I'm going to add him as an adoptive child of his step-father, it displays in the "Add Parent" window the ORIGINAL biological parents for Jimmy. I don't know how to get from there to the new father (step-father). He is not displayed and once I'm at this point I can select type of parents (step, adoptive etc.) but I can't go from that point to the new father as the biological parents (both) are displayed at this point. Can't get from point A to point B, I guess. Can you make it plainer for a dummy like me? Thanks for step-by-step. Keep in mind that we want this to end up showing that Jimmy is the adopted child of ONLY the one parent . . . not both, for after all, he is the natural child of one of them. --Fred Houts, Brooklyn Center MN In a message dated 6/4/2005 10:03:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alanjones10@cox.net writes: Let say you have the biological family in PAF, and then the parents divorce or one dies, and the other remarried. You add the person's new spouse. THEN go to the child of the biological parents highlight the child, click on ADD .... OTHER PARENTS.... Select the new step/adoptive parent. In this say window where you select the person, you select the type of parent adoptive, guardian, etc. ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List Search http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=PAF-5-USERS

Stewart, I hate to disagree with you, but a natural parent cannot also be an adoptive parent of their natural child. Under no adoption law that I'm aware of, is there a requirement to, or provision for, the natural parent to go through the adoption process required for a second spouse to adopt the child of his spouse and another natural parent. The natural parent's name may appear in the adoption records and it may require that parent's consent to the adoption, but the natural parent is not an adopter. Dick Cazier Lakewood, Colorado USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart Millar" <sm999@tiscali.co.uk> To: <PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:10 AM Subject: RE: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted > > Fred, > > You need to look at it this way ---------- > > In PAF each/any set of parents/marriage partners can have children - it is > the couple (parents) that can have biological or adopted children > > Any one parent can be both one of the biological parents and one of the > adopted parents. > > The duality of relationship for this particular parent is apparent when > viewing the child's other parents and this parent shows up as a partner in > the biological parents and as a partner in the adopted parents. > > Once you get your mind around this way of working - it really isn't a > problem. > > Regards, > > Stewart > > > -----Original Message----- > From: HoutsRFred@aol.com [mailto:HoutsRFred@aol.com] > Sent: 05 June 2005 13:36 > To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted > > > ALAN -- Sorry, but I'm not following you. I just put a sample couple in > my > > d.b. to use for this, plus a "new" father by the mother's remarriage. > Then > I added a child, Jimmy, to original biological parents. When I > highlight > Jimmy, thinking I'm going to add him as an adoptive child of his > step-father, > it displays in the "Add Parent" window the ORIGINAL biological parents > for > Jimmy. I don't know how to get from there to the new father > (step-father). > He is not displayed and once I'm at this point I can select type of > parents > > (step, adoptive etc.) but I can't go from that point to the new father as > the > biological parents (both) are displayed at this point. Can't get from > point > A to point B, I guess. Can you make it plainer for a dummy like me? > Thanks for step-by-step. Keep in mind that we want this to end up > showing > that > Jimmy is the adopted child of ONLY the one parent . . . not both, for > after > > all, he is the natural child of one of them. --Fred Houts, Brooklyn > Center > MN > > In a message dated 6/4/2005 10:03:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, > alanjones10@cox.net writes: > > Let say you have the biological family in PAF, and then the parents > divorce or one dies, and the other remarried. You add the person's new > spouse. THEN go to the child of the biological parents highlight the > child, click on > ADD .... OTHER PARENTS.... Select the new step/adoptive parent. In > this say window where you select the person, you select the type of > parent adoptive, guardian, etc. > > > > > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > PAF-5-USERS Mailing List Search > http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=PAF-5-USERS > > > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > AVG Anti-Virus Users > Disable the 'Certify outgoing messages' option via the E-mail Scanner tab. > >

Alan, I tried you method, which is a different one than I suggested yesterday. I used both methods, then viewed the family screen to check the results. The screen for the marriage of the natural parents shows no parent link next to the child's name. According to PAF, no link means they are the natural parents of the child. Checking the family screen for the marriage to the second spouse, the child show up with a parent link as adopted. This usually means that the child has been adopted by both parents, so this would be assumed unless the reader did not search farther. There is no indication on the family screen that one of the parents is the natural parent and the other is an adoptive parent. And I believe that the original question was- how do we get this relationship shown on the family screen. The answer is that PAF doesn't provide a way to make this show. Bottom line is that whether a person uses your method or the one I suggested, the family screen results are exactly the same. The only way to discover the child has multiple parents on the family screen is to either put the adoptive parent in the primary position (where the child will have a parent relationship listed as adopted), put the natural parent in the primary position and check the other marriage, or put the child in the primary position (where an "Other Parents" button will appear above the parent listing on the right hand side). A critical look at any of these will show that the natural parent in each marriage is the same person and the conclusion is that the natural parent did not need to adopt after the second marriage. That's why I suggested adding notes to clarify the situation for the natural parent, adoptive parent and the child. Taht way, if a researcher misses catching it in the search, they will find it in the Notes. Also, adding both last name to the child should also alert someone to this. My way of listing that is "John SMITH (AND) JONES. Try my method and you'll see the results area the same on the family screen. Dick Cazier Lakewood, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Jones at home" <alanjones10@cox.net> To: <PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:02 PM Subject: RE: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted >I guess I don't understand why people are saying that PAF "does not > allow this" or "doesn't make it easy". > I do this all the time in PAF and I find it very easy. > > I suppose the exact step by step directions will vary depending upon > what you started with. > > Let say you have the biological family in PAF, and then the parents > divorce or one dies, and the other remarried. You add the person's new > spouse. THEN go to the child of the biological parents highlight the > child, click on > ADD .... OTHER PARENTS.... Select the new step/adoptive parent. In > this say window where you select the person, you select the type of > parent adoptive, guardian, etc. > > > > Alan Jones > Mission Viejo, Calif. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: HoutsRFred@aol.com [mailto:HoutsRFred@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:32 AM > To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted > > > > STEWART -- How would printing of Register Reports using COMPANION handle > > this? It seems the program (software) might be confused by this. Fred > ========================== In a message dated 6/4/2005 9:52:09 A.M. > Central Daylight Time, > sm999@tiscali.co.uk writes: > > On the question of one of the biological parents being involved with a > new spouse who adopts the children - whilst PAF does not easily allow > for this - as previously noted, PAF will only allow a given set of > parents to be either biological or adoptive - one way of dealing with > it is to create two sets of parents for the child - the true biological > parents and a further set of parents involving the new adoptive spouse > and the original biological parent. > > The end result is that the child's paternity can be displayed for the > adoptive line - involves one biological and one adopted parent AND > alternatively can be displayed for the two biological parents. The > common biological parent is the same PAF RIN and does not involve any > duplicating of data. PAF will allow you to set one of these paternity > links as the Primary parent link which will be automatically displayed > as the default - but as required can be switched for on-screen viewing > and analysis. > > Using the "Edit Parents Links" for an adopted child will display the > other recorded parents (with RIN id's) - any commonality of parents > will make the biological/adopted relationships apparent. > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, > Stewart > > > > > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > AVG Anti-Virus Users > Disable the 'Certify outgoing messages' option via the E-mail Scanner > tab. > > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > RootsWeb > http://www.rootsweb.com/ > >

Hi Dick, I guess there is something we are doing slightly different, because I do see Guardian or Adopted Under the Parent Link column by the child's name in the family view, where the mother and adoptive step father are listed. I totally agree with you that we need to explain things in the notes. We just can not do everything with fields in the standard forms. I don't like to play with the people's last names as you choose to do . I leave their name as their legal name (this can be not their birth name if it was changed Legally along the way) then in the notes I explain all that. Alan Jones Mission Viejo, Calif. -----Original Message----- From: Dick Cazier [mailto:dcazier@comcast.net] Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 11:34 AM To: Alan Jones at home; PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted Alan, I tried you method, which is a different one than I suggested yesterday. I used both methods, then viewed the family screen to check the results. The screen for the marriage of the natural parents shows no parent link next to the child's name. According to PAF, no link means they are the natural parents of the child. Checking the family screen for the marriage to the second spouse, the child show up with a parent link as adopted. This usually means that the child has been adopted by both parents, so this would be assumed unless the reader did not search farther. There is no indication on the family screen that one of the parents is the natural parent and the other is an adoptive parent. And I believe that the original question was- how do we get this relationship shown on the family screen. The answer is that PAF doesn't provide a way to make this show. Bottom line is that whether a person uses your method or the one I suggested, the family screen results are exactly the same. The only way to discover the child has multiple parents on the family screen is to either put the adoptive parent in the primary position (where the child will have a parent relationship listed as adopted), put the natural parent in the primary position and check the other marriage, or put the child in the primary position (where an "Other Parents" button will appear above the parent listing on the right hand side). A critical look at any of these will show that the natural parent in each marriage is the same person and the conclusion is that the natural parent did not need to adopt after the second marriage. That's why I suggested adding notes to clarify the situation for the natural parent, adoptive parent and the child. Taht way, if a researcher misses catching it in the search, they will find it in the Notes. Also, adding both last name to the child should also alert someone to this. My way of listing that is "John SMITH (AND) JONES. Try my method and you'll see the results area the same on the family screen. Dick Cazier Lakewood, CO ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Jones at home" <alanjones10@cox.net> To: <PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 9:02 PM Subject: RE: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted >I guess I don't understand why people are saying that PAF "does not >allow this" or "doesn't make it easy". I do this all the time in PAF >and I find it very easy. > > I suppose the exact step by step directions will vary depending upon > what you started with. > > Let say you have the biological family in PAF, and then the parents > divorce or one dies, and the other remarried. You add the person's new > spouse. THEN go to the child of the biological parents highlight the > child, click on > ADD .... OTHER PARENTS.... Select the new step/adoptive parent. In > this say window where you select the person, you select the type of > parent adoptive, guardian, etc. > > > > Alan Jones > Mission Viejo, Calif. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: HoutsRFred@aol.com [mailto:HoutsRFred@aol.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:32 AM > To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted > > > > STEWART -- How would printing of Register Reports using COMPANION > handle > > this? It seems the program (software) might be confused by this. Fred > ========================== In a message dated 6/4/2005 9:52:09 A.M. > Central Daylight Time, sm999@tiscali.co.uk writes: > > On the question of one of the biological parents being involved with > a new spouse who adopts the children - whilst PAF does not easily > allow for this - as previously noted, PAF will only allow a given set > of parents to be either biological or adoptive - one way of dealing > with it is to create two sets of parents for the child - the true > biological parents and a further set of parents involving the new > adoptive spouse and the original biological parent. > > The end result is that the child's paternity can be displayed for the > adoptive line - involves one biological and one adopted parent AND > alternatively can be displayed for the two biological parents. The > common biological parent is the same PAF RIN and does not involve any > duplicating of data. PAF will allow you to set one of these paternity > links as the Primary parent link which will be automatically > displayed as the default - but as required can be switched for > on-screen viewing and analysis. > > Using the "Edit Parents Links" for an adopted child will display the > other recorded parents (with RIN id's) - any commonality of parents > will make the biological/adopted relationships apparent. > > Hope this helps. > > Regards, > Stewart > > > > > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > AVG Anti-Virus Users > Disable the 'Certify outgoing messages' option via the E-mail Scanner > tab. > > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > RootsWeb > http://www.rootsweb.com/ > >

Sorry I didn't go through all the steps. Sometimes it is so easy to skip over something. Here is the way I do it: Let me use a specific example, a child's parents divorced. The mother who has custody remarried. The step father adopted the child, the bio father gave up his rights. Here is how I did it. 1st I create the child's bio family, marking the marriage with a divorce. 2nd I added the second marriage of the mother (of course this marriage does not have the child) 3rd I when to the child in teh Family screen, the child was in the primary position and highlighted. 4th I clicked on ADD from the menu bar, in the drop down list I selected OTHER PARENTS 5th a window popped up titled "Parents" on it the bio parents are there, I click the ADD button. 6th then a new window comes up titled "Add Parents", I click on the Find Father button, I pick this because the step father is in the database, I don't need to add him from scratch. If I did neet to add him from scratch I would have clicked Add Father 7th a FIND window pops up, I choose to use the Individual List to find the step father, once I highlight the step father I click OK 8. It asks which marriage for this man, in my case there was only one choice, and I click OK 9. An Edit Marraige window comes up, I click Save 10. I am back to the Add PARENTS window, where I click OK 11. I am back to the Parents window, where the step father is selected in the list, I choose the relattionship type "Adopted" and click SAVE Now in the family view with the child in the primary possition, over the father's name is a button/link "Other Parents" I can click on it to see the various fathers of the child: Bio, Adopted, etc. I can select anyone I want as the "primary" and it will then show up as the father in the Family View screen. Did this clear it up? Alan Jones Mission Viejo, Calif. -----Original Message----- From: HoutsRFred@aol.com [mailto:HoutsRFred@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:36 AM To: alanjones10@cox.net; PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted ALAN -- Sorry, but I'm not following you. I just put a sample couple in my d.b. to use for this, plus a "new" father by the mother's remarriage. Then I added a child, Jimmy, to original biological parents. When I highlight Jimmy, thinking I'm going to add him as an adoptive child of his step-father, it displays in the "Add Parent" window the ORIGINAL biological parents for Jimmy. I don't know how to get from there to the new father (step-father). He is not displayed and once I'm at this point I can select type of parents (step, adoptive etc.) but I can't go from that point to the new father as the biological parents (both) are displayed at this point. Can't get from point A to point B, I guess. Can you make it plainer for a dummy like me? Thanks for step-by-step. Keep in mind that we want this to end up showing that Jimmy is the adopted child of ONLY the one parent . . . not both, for after all, he is the natural child of one of them. --Fred Houts, Brooklyn Center MN In a message dated 6/4/2005 10:03:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alanjones10@cox.net writes: Let say you have the biological family in PAF, and then the parents divorce or one dies, and the other remarried. You add the person's new spouse. THEN go to the child of the biological parents highlight the child, click on ADD .... OTHER PARENTS.... Select the new step/adoptive parent. In this say window where you select the person, you select the type of parent adoptive, guardian, etc.

ALAN -- Sorry, but I'm not following you. I just put a sample couple in my d.b. to use for this, plus a "new" father by the mother's remarriage. Then I added a child, Jimmy, to original biological parents. When I highlight Jimmy, thinking I'm going to add him as an adoptive child of his step-father, it displays in the "Add Parent" window the ORIGINAL biological parents for Jimmy. I don't know how to get from there to the new father (step-father). He is not displayed and once I'm at this point I can select type of parents (step, adoptive etc.) but I can't go from that point to the new father as the biological parents (both) are displayed at this point. Can't get from point A to point B, I guess. Can you make it plainer for a dummy like me? Thanks for step-by-step. Keep in mind that we want this to end up showing that Jimmy is the adopted child of ONLY the one parent . . . not both, for after all, he is the natural child of one of them. --Fred Houts, Brooklyn Center MN In a message dated 6/4/2005 10:03:07 P.M. Central Daylight Time, alanjones10@cox.net writes: Let say you have the biological family in PAF, and then the parents divorce or one dies, and the other remarried. You add the person's new spouse. THEN go to the child of the biological parents highlight the child, click on ADD .... OTHER PARENTS.... Select the new step/adoptive parent. In this say window where you select the person, you select the type of parent adoptive, guardian, etc.

I guess I don't understand why people are saying that PAF "does not allow this" or "doesn't make it easy". I do this all the time in PAF and I find it very easy. I suppose the exact step by step directions will vary depending upon what you started with. Let say you have the biological family in PAF, and then the parents divorce or one dies, and the other remarried. You add the person's new spouse. THEN go to the child of the biological parents highlight the child, click on ADD .... OTHER PARENTS.... Select the new step/adoptive parent. In this say window where you select the person, you select the type of parent adoptive, guardian, etc. Alan Jones Mission Viejo, Calif. -----Original Message----- From: HoutsRFred@aol.com [mailto:HoutsRFred@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 8:32 AM To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted STEWART -- How would printing of Register Reports using COMPANION handle this? It seems the program (software) might be confused by this. Fred ========================== In a message dated 6/4/2005 9:52:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, sm999@tiscali.co.uk writes: On the question of one of the biological parents being involved with a new spouse who adopts the children - whilst PAF does not easily allow for this - as previously noted, PAF will only allow a given set of parents to be either biological or adoptive - one way of dealing with it is to create two sets of parents for the child - the true biological parents and a further set of parents involving the new adoptive spouse and the original biological parent. The end result is that the child's paternity can be displayed for the adoptive line - involves one biological and one adopted parent AND alternatively can be displayed for the two biological parents. The common biological parent is the same PAF RIN and does not involve any duplicating of data. PAF will allow you to set one of these paternity links as the Primary parent link which will be automatically displayed as the default - but as required can be switched for on-screen viewing and analysis. Using the "Edit Parents Links" for an adopted child will display the other recorded parents (with RIN id's) - any commonality of parents will make the biological/adopted relationships apparent. Hope this helps. Regards, Stewart ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== AVG Anti-Virus Users Disable the 'Certify outgoing messages' option via the E-mail Scanner tab.

Fred --- Can't comment on COMPANION as I don't use it - I would hope that at any reporting decision on parents that the current nominated primary parents would be selected - and, as in PAF, that an optional indicator can be selected to give a printed indication that there are other parents for the child in question. Regards, Stewart -----Original Message----- From: HoutsRFred@aol.com [mailto:HoutsRFred@aol.com] Sent: 04 June 2005 16:32 To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Biological/Adopted STEWART -- How would printing of Register Reports using COMPANION handle this? It seems the program (software) might be confused by this. Fred ========================== In a message dated 6/4/2005 9:52:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, sm999@tiscali.co.uk writes: On the question of one of the biological parents being involved with a new spouse who adopts the children - whilst PAF does not easily allow for this - as previously noted, PAF will only allow a given set of parents to be either biological or adoptive - one way of dealing with it is to create two sets of parents for the child - the true biological parents and a further set of parents involving the new adoptive spouse and the original biological parent. The end result is that the child's paternity can be displayed for the adoptive line - involves one biological and one adopted parent AND alternatively can be displayed for the two biological parents. The common biological parent is the same PAF RIN and does not involve any duplicating of data. PAF will allow you to set one of these paternity links as the Primary parent link which will be automatically displayed as the default - but as required can be switched for on-screen viewing and analysis. Using the "Edit Parents Links" for an adopted child will display the other recorded parents (with RIN id's) - any commonality of parents will make the biological/adopted relationships apparent. Hope this helps. Regards, Stewart ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== AVG Anti-Virus Users Disable the 'Certify outgoing messages' option via the E-mail Scanner tab.

On the question of one of the biological parents being involved with a new spouse who adopts the children - whilst PAF does not easily allow for this - as previously noted, PAF will only allow a given set of parents to be either biological or adoptive - one way of dealing with it is to create two sets of parents for the child - the true biological parents and a further set of parents involving the new adoptive spouse and the original biological parent. The end result is that the child's paternity can be displayed for the adoptive line - involves one biological and one adopted parent AND alternatively can be displayed for the two biological parents. The common biological parent is the same PAF RIN and does not involve any duplicating of data. PAF will allow you to set one of these paternity links as the Primary parent link which will be automatically displayed as the default - but as required can be switched for on-screen viewing and analysis. Using the "Edit Parents Links" for an adopted child will display the other recorded parents (with RIN id's) - any commonality of parents will make the biological/adopted relationships apparent. Hope this helps. Regards, Stewart -----Original Message----- From: E.Rodier [mailto:cerear@telusplanet.net] Sent: 04 June 2005 14:40 To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Acknowledging gay marriages in PAF PAF 5 is limited to the same relationship of a child to TWO parents. Some of the other genealogy programs allow individual child-parent relationships and use different GEDCOM tags. This means that a second marriage of a bio parent will have the wrong child-parent relationship for one of them if the child is attached to a blended family -- his kids, her kids, their kids. Sample file received from a PAF user had bio relationships for the father's marriages and adoptive for the mother's second marriage. Multiple sets of parents may show no relationships at all if a PAF GEDCOM is imported by programs using the individual parent relationships. If accuracy of relationships is important for GEDCOM file transfers, data entry should be limited to two bio parents for each child and other relationships explained in notes. Second best would be one set of parents for each child with an explanation if a child was shown as "adopted" by one of the bio parents. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen" > Is there something I'm missing here? I have been unable to show a child as > adopted by one member of a couple but the natural child of the other. > Adoption in PAF seems to always come out that the child is adopted by both > parents -- when I use the edit parents method. Is there another way to > approach this? ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List Archives http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PAF-5-USERS/

STEWART -- How would printing of Register Reports using COMPANION handle this? It seems the program (software) might be confused by this. Fred ========================== In a message dated 6/4/2005 9:52:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time, sm999@tiscali.co.uk writes: On the question of one of the biological parents being involved with a new spouse who adopts the children - whilst PAF does not easily allow for this - as previously noted, PAF will only allow a given set of parents to be either biological or adoptive - one way of dealing with it is to create two sets of parents for the child - the true biological parents and a further set of parents involving the new adoptive spouse and the original biological parent. The end result is that the child's paternity can be displayed for the adoptive line - involves one biological and one adopted parent AND alternatively can be displayed for the two biological parents. The common biological parent is the same PAF RIN and does not involve any duplicating of data. PAF will allow you to set one of these paternity links as the Primary parent link which will be automatically displayed as the default - but as required can be switched for on-screen viewing and analysis. Using the "Edit Parents Links" for an adopted child will display the other recorded parents (with RIN id's) - any commonality of parents will make the biological/adopted relationships apparent. Hope this helps. Regards, Stewart

Is there something I'm missing here? I have been unable to show a child as adopted by one member of a couple but the natural child of the other. Adoption in PAF seems to always come out that the child is adopted by both parents -- when I use the edit parents method. Is there another way to approach this? Please explain how you can show the child as adopted by only one parent. Thanks, Ellen At 02:00 PM 6/3/2005 -0600, you wrote: >Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:31:12 -0600 >From: "Dick Cazier" <dcazier@comcast.net> >To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com >Message-ID: <005701c567c2$c8265980$0ff6a543@CazierOffice> >Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Acknowledging gay marriages in PAF >Content-Type: text/plain; > format=flowed; > charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=response >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >I think Alan's comment below as to the "right or wrong way" to do >genealogy and "laws" on how it should be done are right on point. > >Much of the discussion on this thread seem to deal with personal feelings >on whether or not homosexual marriages should or should not be recognized >in genealogy. And it appears that most of the comments are based on a >personal theological or religious belief. > >That is not the point. The question originally posed was "how do I record >a homosexual marriage in PAF." So I don't believe it is proper or on >point, in this venue, to try to convince anyone about one point of view or >another as to the validity or appropriateness of trying to record this >type of marriage. > >Now, for an idea of how to record this type of marriage, which PAF is not >set up to do, by virtue of the program requiring one party of the marriage >to be listed as male and the other as female. > >I suggest that you record one party, whether of male or female gender, and >then add the children to that individual. This will result in a marriage >with one partner listed as unknown (no RIN will be assigned to the unknown >spouse and a no MRIN to the marriage). Then record the second party of >the same gender to your PAF database and list the same children. Then >edit the two marriage screens to add the appropriate date and place for >the marriage (as appropriate) and notes to each indicating it is a "same >sex" marriage and that the unknown spouse is-enter the name of the >"marriage" partner of the same gender (and that individual's RIN). You >might want to add a similar entry under the Notes of each individual >partner, so that anyone looking at it later is more likely to find that it >is a "same sex marriage." You may also want to edit the child relationship >to show that they are adopted by both marriage partners , if that is the >case, or show adopted to only one of the partners, if the child/children >are natural children of the other partner. > >I hope this explanation makes sense. It seems to be rather clumsy, but >is the only way I can see that it can be accomplished in the PAF >program. If anyone wants to see an example of this idea, email me off >list and I'll be happy to send you a gedcom of what I set up to test the idea. > >And realize that my quotation marks around the words marriage and same sex >marriage are intended in no way to indicate my feelings on same sex >marriages, but are intended to emphasize that this suggestion is only >deals with same sex marriages. >Dick Cazier >Lakewood, Colorado >USA

PAF 5 is limited to the same relationship of a child to TWO parents. Some of the other genealogy programs allow individual child-parent relationships and use different GEDCOM tags. This means that a second marriage of a bio parent will have the wrong child-parent relationship for one of them if the child is attached to a blended family -- his kids, her kids, their kids. Sample file received from a PAF user had bio relationships for the father's marriages and adoptive for the mother's second marriage. Multiple sets of parents may show no relationships at all if a PAF GEDCOM is imported by programs using the individual parent relationships. If accuracy of relationships is important for GEDCOM file transfers, data entry should be limited to two bio parents for each child and other relationships explained in notes. Second best would be one set of parents for each child with an explanation if a child was shown as "adopted" by one of the bio parents. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen" > Is there something I'm missing here? I have been unable to show a child as > adopted by one member of a couple but the natural child of the other. > Adoption in PAF seems to always come out that the child is adopted by both > parents -- when I use the edit parents method. Is there another way to > approach this?

Thanks Ellen for bringing this up. I, too, am having the same problem. Hope someone comes to our rescue. How do you show an adoption by only one parent, when the other parent is the natural parent. PAF only shows it as an adoption by both parents. Lois ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ellen" <fec33@earthlink.net> To: <PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2005 5:21 AM Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Acknowledging gay marriages in PAF > > Please explain how you can show the child as adopted by only one parent. > > Thanks, > Ellen > > At 02:00 PM 6/3/2005 -0600, you wrote: >>Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2005 16:31:12 -0600 >>From: "Dick Cazier" <dcazier@comcast.net> >>To: PAF-5-USERS-L@rootsweb.com >>Message-ID: <005701c567c2$c8265980$0ff6a543@CazierOffice> >>Subject: Re: [PAF-5] Re: Acknowledging gay marriages in PAF >>Content-Type: text/plain; >> format=flowed; >> charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=response >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >>I think Alan's comment below as to the "right or wrong way" to do >>genealogy and "laws" on how it should be done are right on point. >> >>Much of the discussion on this thread seem to deal with personal feelings >>on whether or not homosexual marriages should or should not be recognized >>in genealogy. And it appears that most of the comments are based on a >>personal theological or religious belief. >> >>That is not the point. The question originally posed was "how do I record >>a homosexual marriage in PAF." So I don't believe it is proper or on >>point, in this venue, to try to convince anyone about one point of view or >>another as to the validity or appropriateness of trying to record this >>type of marriage. >> >>Now, for an idea of how to record this type of marriage, which PAF is not >>set up to do, by virtue of the program requiring one party of the marriage >>to be listed as male and the other as female. >> >>I suggest that you record one party, whether of male or female gender, and >>then add the children to that individual. This will result in a marriage >>with one partner listed as unknown (no RIN will be assigned to the unknown >>spouse and a no MRIN to the marriage). Then record the second party of >>the same gender to your PAF database and list the same children. Then >>edit the two marriage screens to add the appropriate date and place for >>the marriage (as appropriate) and notes to each indicating it is a "same >>sex" marriage and that the unknown spouse is-enter the name of the >>"marriage" partner of the same gender (and that individual's RIN). You >>might want to add a similar entry under the Notes of each individual >>partner, so that anyone looking at it later is more likely to find that it >>is a "same sex marriage." You may also want to edit the child relationship >>to show that they are adopted by both marriage partners , if that is the >>case, or show adopted to only one of the partners, if the child/children >>are natural children of the other partner. >> >>I hope this explanation makes sense. It seems to be rather clumsy, but >>is the only way I can see that it can be accomplished in the PAF program. >>If anyone wants to see an example of this idea, email me off list and I'll >>be happy to send you a gedcom of what I set up to test the idea. >> >>And realize that my quotation marks around the words marriage and same sex >>marriage are intended in no way to indicate my feelings on same sex >>marriages, but are intended to emphasize that this suggestion is only >>deals with same sex marriages. >>Dick Cazier >>Lakewood, Colorado >>USA > > > ==== PAF-5-USERS Mailing List ==== > PAF-5-USERS Mailing List Search > http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=PAF-5-USERS > >