Dave is quite right about these crests being a novelty item, and one should use caution when buying "family" coats of arms or crests. Most medieval families were not armigerous, that is, entitled to bear arms (and a coat of arms)for their king. For more info on this subject, go to www.dejanews.com and look for the newsgroup rec.heraldry Here is a short bit from their FAQ post: 3: How can I find my coat of arms or my family's coat of arms? ============================================================== This is a difficult question to answer; it requires a great deal of research and skill. In most countries in the world, you can bear any arms you want. This is the way in which arms were originally adopted, before codification and regulation by European heralds and rulers. It is, howver, considered quite wrong to adopt someone else's arms. In some countries, notably Scotland, this is not only dishonourable but illegal. In particular, there are no laws regulating the use of _non-governmental_ arms in the US. The American government neither grants nor recognizes armory. You can adopt any arms you choose and use them however you want (unless you infringe on someone's trademark, which is an entirely different subject that has been beaten to death on this newsgroup so please don't ask about it); but you have no particular right to those arms or any other. If you are descended from someone who was granted arms by some heraldic authority then you may have some claim to those arms within the jurisdiction of that authority. The chances are very good that you do not have any claim on any actual arms. Most people in the world do not. Exactly what conditions you have to meet to establish such a claim vary considerably from one country to another. At the very least, you will have to prove that a recognized holder of the arms is your ancestor. In some countries, you would have to prove that you are the legal heir of that person. Getting an official recognition of your claim is likely to be expensive and time-consuming; in England, for example, it costs thousands of pounds. *** Your last name has nothing to do with the matter. *** Arms are not associated with surnames, but with individuals and, in some countries, with families. The important thing is who your ancestors are, not what surname you happen to bear. The fact that your name happens to be "Smith", for example, gives you no claim whatsoever on any of the thousands of arms borne throughout history by various people named "Smith." Unfortunately, there are lots of unscrupulous businessmen worldwide who are happy to promulgate false information about the subject of armory. They will happily take your money to tell you "Your Family Arms", which they supply simply by finding an armigerous family that happens to share your surname. We suggest that you avoid these companies; if you want anything more than a decorative wall-hanging, they are a waste of your money. And if you will be happy with any pretty picture to hang on your wall, you can save yourself the trouble of dealing with these companies, and simply choose arms that you like. 4: What about those outfits in the malls that'll sell me my arms? ================================================================= See question 3. "Unless you pay them thousands of dollars, the companies [in the malls, and in advertisements in many publications] won't do that research; they'll just look in their books under your surname, and tell you what's there. All that will tell you is that there is (or once was) a person sharing your surname who bore arms. Suppose your name were "Jones"; it wouldn't be very significant to learn that there was once an English armiger named "Jones". - Josh Mittleman (mittle@panix.com) 5: What is the difference between a coat of arms and a crest? ============================================================= Many people mistakenly call a shield bearing arms a crest, for example in the phrase "my family's crest", which usually refers to the shield itself, or perhaps a badge. A full English coat of arms (an "achievement") consists of: - a shield (with arms painted on it, obviously); - above the shield, a helm or helmet; - hanging from the helm, the mantling, which represents a piece of cloth used for protection from the sun. The mantling is frequently arranged in decorative swirls around the shield, suggesting a tattered cloth hacked about in fighting; - a torse, or wreath, being twists of cloth wound around the helmet; - the crest, sitting on the torse. There may also be, if the bearer is entitled to them: - a supporter on each side of the shield (in some cases there may be only one supporter); - a compartment for the supporters to stand on; - one or more collars of orders of knighthood surrounding the shield, or symbols of office (eg batons) behind it. Not all the elements have to be present; the essential part is the shield. There may also be other bits and pieces, such as mottos, badges or war cries. Achievements in other countries frequently differ: for example the torse is not very common on the continent, and coronets are commonly found in French heraldry. Any book should have illustrations of many different achievements, with different selections of these elements. Francois Velde maintains a Web page at http://128.220.1.164/heraldry/intro.htm which contains articles on a number of interesting heraldic topics. There are World Wide Web pages at http://www2.ncsu.edu/eos/users/s/sfcallic/SCA/Heraldy.html http://www.tiac.net/staff/zach/east.html http://www2.ecst.csuchio.edu:80/~rodmur/sca/ which are fairly SCA oriented, but check them out; there is a lot of real-world heraldry information as well. The British Heraldic Archive WWW pages are at http://www.kwtelecom.com/heraldry/index.html and contains information about the Heraldry Society, indices to "The Coat of Arms" and articles of interest. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave B." <dboben@usachoice.net> To: <PAELK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 11:14 AM Subject: [PAELK] Notes, Oct. 31 > I see the "Personalized Family Name History" is being offered by > "The Sportsman's Guide". This is a lookup of your name, crest if > available and it's origin and it comes in a 14x17" Cherry wood frame. > I've seen these and would say they are more of a novelty item then an > actual genealogy item. Of course this is for the Bobenrieth name but if > you have a common name it might be something more. They are on sale now > for $38 at www.sportsmansguide.com and the item number is LX1P-56752. > >