Hello there, My ancestor, John Philip Bergstresser (5th GGrandfather) served under a Capt. John Waggoner in the First Battalion of the Northampton Co. Militia. John Philip is listed in the D.A.R. Patriot index [877] Do not know how these John' relate but thought I'd add to it Happy 4th, Marty Graybill > -----Original Message----- > From: Dora Smith [mailto:tiggernut_48@yahoo.com] > Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 4:59 PM > To: PADUTCHgenONLY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [PaDgo] prominent Lt John Wagner of Cumru,unpropertied people > in Cumru, Baptists > > > Here are several excerpts from a letter someone > wrote me. > > There was one fairly prominent Wagner family in > Cumru, a Lt. John Wagner > with wife Susannah. They had about 10 kids, and > the third child was named > Henry. Lt. John (from the Revolutionary War) had > a decent-sized acreage; I > have seen his will in Reading. > > Yes, Cumru is right across the river from Exeter, > > just to the southwest. > > you are right that > there were so many obscure > Wagners out of Berks, propertyless and hanging on > > by their teeth, and > particularly in Cumru, which was poor and largely > > Welsh Baptist. There was > not even a Reformed Church for them in Cumru that > > I can find (none, at > least, in Glattfelter's book, 1948). > > OK, start spilling it, folks. This is the first > I've heard of a prominent Revolutionary War era > Johannes Wagner in Berks County, let alone with > wife Susanna. My Henry WAgner married to > Elizabeth, having children apparently in Alsace > or Exeter by the 1770's begin showing up in > Schwarwald's records in 1782, constantly > exchanged baptismal sponsorship of children with > Johannes Wagner and wife Susanna, apparently of > Exeter too but it's very hard to tell. They also > begin to show up in the Schwarzwald records in > 1782, which does not mean they lived in Reading > or took up a new place of residence in 1782. As > you can see from below, Cumru was not on the > other side of the county from Alsace and Exeter, > where someone told me it is, it was adjacent to > Exeter. Though from the description I am > wondering if alot of people kind of think the > place was on the other side of the galaxy from > all those prosperous, wealthy, moderately > religious and completely sane people we on these > lists mostly think were our Berks County > ancestors. Me included - I've sure never heard > anyone was poor here, before, let alone Welsh > Baptist - certainly never entertained the > possibility! :/ Further, a Johannes Wagner > married Susanna Liesz, and Johannes and Susanna's > children were often sponsored by other Liesz's. > > Can people please tell me more about this Lt. > Johannes/ John Wagner of the Revolutionary War > and his wife Susan - and their ten children? > Also, exactly where they lived and owned land. > And where to find information on this family. > > Also, I had assumed that John and Henry Wagner > owned land if they lived in Berks County, had > alot of children and did not live in Reading. > What would those two have done and where would > they or anyone else have lived in Exeter, Alsace > and Cumru if they did not own land? If they > would have needed to have some sort of a trade in > lieu of owning land, where might I find some sort > of record of it? Were most people in Cumru poor? > Did most people who did own land there own small > amounts of it? I hear mostly about people in > Berks County who owned huge quantities of land > from very early points in time, had manic energy > levels and drive, and became extremely > prosperous. Like my Deharts, atleast one Burkhart > family, the Keim's, and the Schneiders, and the > Wagner family of Bern. > > For that matter, where do I find tax records for > Berks County for 1770 through 1810? I wrote to > the Berks County tax office, sent a few bucks for > zeroxing, and a SASE, and never got any response > - and there is zit anywhere I can find on even > how to get those records. Lot of info on how to > get wills, vital records - but not on how to get > tax records. > > Also, this is the first I've heard about Welsh > Baptists in Cumru. I wonder how it can be that > there is so little information and apparent > awareness on those of these lists that pertain to > that area, that THOSE varmints were around? It's > a far more glaring and important thing to miss > than being unaware of poverty. Is it true that > this is the only church that was there for people > to attend? Where did people of German background > who lived in Cumru actually attend church? My > own staunchly mixed Presbyterian and Reformed > ancestors who lived in southeastern Chester > County also lived in a town whose only church was > Welsh Baptist; they drove 12 miles to a nearby > town where there was a Presbyterian church every > Sunday. > > People should be aware of it if this church was > really there and many people in that place > belonged to it, if only because it is nearly > impossible to find any sort of vital records on > any family that was Welsh/ Primitive Baptist. > Just the way people need to know that Spies > Church in Alsace kept burning down and losing its > records, though people told me that alot faster > than they told me there were Welsh Baptists! The > Welsh Baptists were so strict they didn't even > accept most children of their members, I think > they drove most of them away which was not easy > to accomplish in the 18th century, they managed > to alienate my Dehaven 4th cousin's ancestor > completely from religion ca 1820 in a town where > everyone was religious, and they accepted nobody > before adulthood. This isn't because they were > Welsh; in fact, in Pennsylvania before many years > had gone by a large proportion of them weren't > Welsh at all; it is because they were among the > most extreme, if oldest, of the Anabaptist sects, > and that accounts for why groups of these > particular Welsh came to this country. To this > day, these "Give me that old time religion" > creators of the Old Time Bible Hour or whatever > its called think Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberts, > and the entire Southern Baptist movement (the > mainstream Fundamentalist church of the South, > and the parent church of Billy Graham) are left > wing liberals in league with Satan. They are not > to be confused with the Baptist movement, which > evolved from the Anabaptist movement and once > included the Primitive Baptists, and I think also > took part in the Great Awakening, but in the > North and in urban areas quickly became a liberal > denomination that many of our nation's early > leaders belonged to, similar to the Pennsylvania > Dutch Brethren. That is why few Welsh Baptist > christening records exist and why they don't name > peoples' parents. > > It also is important to knowing the context of > one's ancestry, and can be a clue to finding > one's ancestors. Where was the nearest very > extreme church or what was the most extreme > church around - my ancestors were fairly > predictably at THAT one! I am tracing a family > history of manic depression that as manic > depression often does branches out many ways in > my lines, and nearly all people who were my > ancestors were very prone to joining movements of > this nature - nearly any sect that was more > intense and evangelical than the Reformed and the > Presbyterians, and in the case of my father's > people, even the Puritans. (There were of course > exceptions - my Rice, Willard and DAvis > ancestors, who prospered and led communities when > manic and migrated every time they got into a > depressed phase, were simply sales geniuses > addicted to land speculation, who though > consistently religiously correct sometimes got > executed as witches for land speculation and > psychotic episodes, and one of my Deharts, whose > mother is thought to most likely have come from > an Oley New Born family, kind of cyclically went > to Philadelphia, opened up a big weaving shop, > and lived in the two (yup, two) mansions he > bought across the street from the mayor's > residence, got ruined, and crawled home.) My > seeming Ritter, Schneider and Keim connections > turn out to all have been Moravian! None of them > were ORIGINALLY Moravian - though some had been > Mennonite. Someone recently posted to one of > these lists that the Moravians were Oley's > version of the Great Awakening! You know, like > Rev. Jonathan Edwards, who incidentally is also > my ancestor - Tuttle line. Some of my people in > Chester County (other children of the inlaws) > became Welsh Baptists because the Dehavens were > originally Anabaptist, got themselves chased > around Europe in circles and burned at the stake > everytime they stopped to catch their breaths, > and never changed their temperament; and because > the descendants of Jesse Dehaven have always been > the most seriously manic depressive temperament > with consistent mental health problems of the > Dehavens, and the Presbyterians and Reformed > weren't intensely enough Calvinistic and > Evangelical for them. Now that I know where the > Welsh Baptists were, it sounds possible that my > Burkhart and Wagner ancestors may have been drawn > to Cumru like the place had a magnet. A-a-a-rgh! > > Yours, > Dora Smith > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Kick off your party with Yahoo! 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