Jim, Cathy, In my experience (Bedford County, not Lancaster/Berks), the same trees often *were* used as property boundaries, sometimes for more than 100 years (I suspect some of the surveyors didn't actually resurvey) - occasionally I've found "to a white oak" replaced with "to the stump of a white oak"...) If you have the "mete's and bounds" of the two properties in question (1774 and 1828), I'd be willing to plot them with a program I have (very rudimentary) and then you can take a gander and see if they look the same, or very similar, to you. (I've found that I can sometimes take properties in the vicinity and turn them into the mental equivalent of a "jigsaw puzzle".) By metes and bounds, I mean a description of the property that goes something like: "Starting at a black oak, thence South 34 degrees West 123 rods to a white oak, thence North 12 degrees West 14 rods 3 perches past the property of Samuel Adams to a fence post... etc. etc... back to the point of beginning". - Jeff R -----Original Message----- From: James Freeman [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:48 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PDGO] Early Deed Transfers Cathy, You are familiar with the ancestors I am researching. The land in question belonged to Henrich Freyman, f/o Casper Freeman. The description of the property on the deed transfer after Casper's death is practically useless. It uses trees that were growing at the time (abt 1828) as markers for the property lines. Were they the same trees that may have been used to mark the property lines in 1774 when Henrich penned his will or when Henrich became the owner? The property lines were not described in his will. The Land Warrants I found were granted to "Casper Feeman" in 1734, my guess as the likely father of Henrich who named his only son Casper. The 1734 Warrant was voided in 1746, I believe, because Casper Feeman did not comply with the terms of the Warrant. A new Warrant for the same property was issued the same day to a Valentine Feeman, who later acquired other property by Warrant and the name was spelled Freeman for those. The property was probably never Deeded to the original Casper, but to Valentine. No Wills or Estates are on file for either of these men in Berks or Lancaster Counties. Thanks for your suggestions. Somewhere there MUST be a record that will make a connection. Just need some clues on where to dig. Thanks. Jim Freeman Jim, it is still not required to record a deed in PA. When we bought here in 1982 I did a title search and found one that wasn't recorded back in 1913. However, if the supposedly grandfather did have a deed did you check to see if it was on the same land? his deed description and the first one you found of your ancestor should jive. Or work through the tax records to see who paid taxes on the land after first owner died. Or if there were no wills for those first two you found, then go to orphans' court as there would have to have been an inventory, etc. and distribution if land was involved, whether or not actual orphans were involved. Did you also look for Letter of Administration? I assume you did that. Check orphans' court carefully because sometimes the accounts are in the name of the person acting as executor and not in children's names. Also I have a will mentioned in a will about 30 years after the ancestor died, but the will of first ancestor is lost. Also I had to write three times to Delaware Co courthouse to get a will which they told me two times wasn't there when I knew it was. Good luck. Happy New Year. Cathy ----- Original Message ----- From: James Freeman <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 4:21 PM Subject: [PDGO] Early Deed Transfers > In a nutshell, this is my problem: An ancestor of mine inherited land from his father abt 1774-5 and no deed transfer was filed in Berks County. After the son died in 1828, the Estate sold the property and a Deed transfer WAS filed which explained the earlier transfer from father to son according to the terms of the fathers Will. No record exists in Berks for where the father got the land. It was probably transfered BEFORE Berks County was formed in 1752. I checked with the Lancaster Co. Deeds Office & found no record there. The land would have been part of Lancaster before 1752. I checked at the State Archives to see if my ancestor received a Land Warrant from the state. No luck there for the earliest ancestor I have documented, but found two others with similar surnames who got land in "Tulpehocken" & "Heidelberg" as early as 1734. One of them has the same first name as the son of my earliest known ancestor. Could be the grandfather. > > I need to find some documentation of this early Deed transfer to hopefully make the family connection. I was told at the Lancaster Deed Office that it may not exist because it was not required to record it back then or it may have been recorded in Philadelphia. My question is where in Philadelphia would records of early deed transfers be found? > > Jim Freeman > > > ==== PADUTCHgenONLY Mailing List ==== > If you have questions about this list contact the admin at: > Joan Young, [email protected] or Don Hartman, [email protected] > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > ==== PADUTCHgenONLY Mailing List ==== The OFFICIAL website for this list is: http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/padutch/ ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 ==== PADUTCHgenONLY Mailing List ==== If you have questions about this list contact the admin at: Joan Young, [email protected] or Don Hartman, [email protected] ============================== To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237

Jeff, The 1774 Will translation claims that "Henrich Freyman maketh a Settlement by Testament..." which I imagine refers to the terms spelled out within the document for the transfer of the real estate to the son Casper. There is no property description included. The only one I have comes from the deed transfer after the son, Casper, died. It may be possible to find the surveys conducted for the original Land Warrants that I have my suspicions about, for a comparison, but that would probably require another trip to the PA Archives. Thanks for your offer but I don't have the info you need. I wish I did. In fact, I didn't make a copy of the "mete's & bounds" from the microfilm in the Deeds Office for the 1832 transfer of Caspers property. It would be nice to have an actual lot map showing the shape of the parcel from that period. One of my future projects is to trace this plot up to the present day owner(s). Somewhere along the way, a REAL survey must have been done which will pinpoint the actual location for this property. Thanks, Jim Freeman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rinscheid, Jeffrey L (Jeff)" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: RE: [PDGO] Early Deed Transfers Jim, Cathy, In my experience (Bedford County, not Lancaster/Berks), the same trees often *were* used as property boundaries, sometimes for more than 100 years (I suspect some of the surveyors didn't actually resurvey) - occasionally I've found "to a white oak" replaced with "to the stump of a white oak"...) If you have the "mete's and bounds" of the two properties in question (1774 and 1828), I'd be willing to plot them with a program I have (very rudimentary) and then you can take a gander and see if they look the same, or very similar, to you. (I've found that I can sometimes take properties in the vicinity and turn them into the mental equivalent of a "jigsaw puzzle".) By metes and bounds, I mean a description of the property that goes something like: "Starting at a black oak, thence South 34 degrees West 123 rods to a white oak, thence North 12 degrees West 14 rods 3 perches past the property of Samuel Adams to a fence post... etc. etc... back to the point of beginning". - Jeff R

Welcome to the problem. Jim and I are both descendants of these Freyman/Freiman/Freeman people. But you intrigue me with your Bedford Co comment. I live in Bedford Co, PA and don't recognize your name nor your provider. Cathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Rinscheid, Jeffrey L (Jeff) <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:08 AM Subject: RE: [PDGO] Early Deed Transfers > Jim, Cathy, > In my experience (Bedford County, not Lancaster/Berks), the same trees often > *were* used as property boundaries, sometimes for more than 100 years (I > suspect some of the surveyors didn't actually resurvey) - occasionally I've > found "to a white oak" replaced with "to the stump of a white oak"...) > > If you have the "mete's and bounds" of the two properties in question (1774 > and 1828), I'd be willing to plot them with a program I have (very > rudimentary) and then you can take a gander and see if they look the same, > or very similar, to you. (I've found that I can sometimes take properties > in the vicinity and turn them into the mental equivalent of a "jigsaw > puzzle".) > > By metes and bounds, I mean a description of the property that goes > something like: > > "Starting at a black oak, thence South 34 degrees West 123 rods to a white > oak, thence North 12 degrees West 14 rods 3 perches past the property of > Samuel Adams to a fence post... etc. etc... back to the point of beginning". > > > - Jeff R > > -----Original Message----- > From: James Freeman [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 8:48 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PDGO] Early Deed Transfers > > > > Cathy, > > You are familiar with the ancestors I am researching. The land in question > belonged to Henrich Freyman, f/o Casper Freeman. The description of the > property on the deed transfer after Casper's death is practically useless. > It uses trees that were growing at the time (abt 1828) as markers for the > property lines. Were they the same trees that may have been used to mark the > property lines in 1774 when Henrich penned his will or when Henrich became > the owner? The property lines were not described in his will. > > The Land Warrants I found were granted to "Casper Feeman" in 1734, my guess > as the likely father of Henrich who named his only son Casper. The 1734 > Warrant was voided in 1746, I believe, because Casper Feeman did not comply > with the terms of the Warrant. A new Warrant for the same property was > issued the same day to a Valentine Feeman, who later acquired other property > by Warrant and the name was spelled Freeman for those. The property was > probably never Deeded to the original Casper, but to Valentine. No Wills or > Estates are on file for either of these men in Berks or Lancaster Counties. > > Thanks for your suggestions. Somewhere there MUST be a record that will make > a connection. Just need some clues on where to dig. Thanks. > > Jim Freeman > > > > > Jim, it is still not required to record a deed in PA. When we bought here > in 1982 I did a title search and found one that wasn't recorded back in > 1913. However, if the supposedly grandfather did have a deed did you check > to see if it was on the same land? his deed description and the first one > you found of your ancestor should jive. Or work through the tax records to > see who paid taxes on the land after first owner died. Or if there were no > wills for those first two you found, then go to orphans' court as there > would have to have been an inventory, etc. and distribution if land was > involved, whether or not actual orphans were involved. Did you also look > for Letter of Administration? I assume you did that. Check orphans' court > carefully because sometimes the accounts are in the name of the person > acting as executor and not in children's names. Also I have a will > mentioned in a will about 30 years after the ancestor died, but the will of > first ancestor is lost. Also I had to write three times to Delaware Co > courthouse to get a will which they told me two times wasn't there when I > knew it was. > > Good luck. Happy New Year. > > Cathy > ----- Original Message ----- > From: James Freeman <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2002 4:21 PM > Subject: [PDGO] Early Deed Transfers > > > > In a nutshell, this is my problem: An ancestor of mine inherited land from > his father abt 1774-5 and no deed transfer was filed in Berks County. After > the son died in 1828, the Estate sold the property and a Deed transfer WAS > filed which explained the earlier transfer from father to son according to > the terms of the fathers Will. No record exists in Berks for where the > father got the land. It was probably transfered BEFORE Berks County was > formed in 1752. I checked with the Lancaster Co. Deeds Office & found no > record there. The land would have been part of Lancaster before 1752. I > checked at the State Archives to see if my ancestor received a Land Warrant > from the state. No luck there for the earliest ancestor I have documented, > but found two others with similar surnames who got land in "Tulpehocken" & > "Heidelberg" as early as 1734. One of them has the same first name as the > son of my earliest known ancestor. Could be the grandfather. > > > > I need to find some documentation of this early Deed transfer to hopefully > make the family connection. I was told at the Lancaster Deed Office that it > may not exist because it was not required to record it back then or it may > have been recorded in Philadelphia. My question is where in Philadelphia > would records of early deed transfers be found? > > > > Jim Freeman > > > > > > ==== PADUTCHgenONLY Mailing List ==== > > If you have questions about this list contact the admin at: > > Joan Young, [email protected] or Don Hartman, [email protected] > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, > go to: > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > > > > ==== PADUTCHgenONLY Mailing List ==== > The OFFICIAL website for this list is: > http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/padutch/ > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go > to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > ==== PADUTCHgenONLY Mailing List ==== > If you have questions about this list contact the admin at: > Joan Young, [email protected] or Don Hartman, [email protected] > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go > to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > ==== PADUTCHgenONLY Mailing List ==== > NO FLAMING ALLOWED ON THIS LIST! Only polite pleasant chat allowed. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >