I've been reading Mary Jane's messages all evening. Has a TROll come to play on our list tonight? She sure seems to find fault with what everybody else says. Oh well, children do like to play their silly games. In 3 hours this person has posted 15 messages. Anybody remember seeing her on this list before? Meanwhile, the regular members of this list have been given a chance to say something meaningful on the subject. I do hope that some people have learned something. Marilyn CT REDSKI9136@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/25/00 1:59:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > REDSKI9136@aol.com writes: > > << spoke German (Deusch). My Berger ancestors came in 1744 and my > grandmother, > b 1870 still spoke German, or rather PA Dutch, which is a form of German > understood somewhat in Germany >> >

Mary Jane, Aaaah!...why am I getting myself into this conversation? Can't help it. I also have strong PA Dutch roots. It's really interesting to me to hear someone standing up for PA Dutch as really Dutch. It's a healthy conversation. There's no doubt that there were Dutch here before the Germans, and no doubt that true-Dutch came later, and that many of those became PA Dutch through marriage and through the culture. I can't disagree with you. But, when I think of the term, I think of those who came mostly in the 18th centuries who created a specific culture. Yes, they lived around the Amish, but weren't always the same. They were originally of German roots, but blended with others who became part of it. When I think of the earlier Dutch settlers you referred to, I don't think of them as PA Dutch...unless, of course, they stayed and blended with the later settlers to become so. If that's incorrect as a technicality, I apologize, but it is an accepted explanation of "PA Dutch" among most who are still in these parts...and that's what's behind the response you're hearing. Jodi

The term "Pennsylvania Dutch" is a colloquialism that refers to a specific group German people who live in a specific area of Pennsylvania. It separates them from the people who came from Holland and were called the Dutch. Dutch, pronounced with a long U is a phonetic spelling for the german "Deutsch". In the 17 and 1800's all spelling was phonetic. People wrote the letters for the sounds they heard. The "e" and the "S" were silent so people didn't spell the word with them. It is common, even today, for people who spell phonetically to write a long vowel using a single letter instead of a double letter combination. For instance, the word "rain" can be spelled "ran" phonetically. When reading phonetic spelling, being aware of the context is important, if you want what you are reading to make sense. As more and more people learned to read and write, people not familiar with the German word read "Dutch" with a short U, they way we say it today. The way we say the word today shows the evolution of our spoken language to conform with our written language through the use of our present day rules of pronunciation and spelling. How we say the word does not change the history of the people, either the Dutch or the PA Dutch. If anything, it helps us not to confuse the two groups, and neither group has become lost in the annals of American History. If you want to know my authority for making such a statement, I spent many years teaching phonics to children, and just as many years reading their phonetic spelling. I encouraged the children to phonetically spell words they couldn't be expected to know how to spell. Marilyn CT REDSKI9136@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/25/00 6:39:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > o2bab@bedford.net writes: > > << Yes Ma'am. The Pennsylvania Dutch who are proud to be so in PA even today > - > and many still speak our form of German ARE NOT DUTCH FROM NETHERLANDS. >> > > Hi, I think you need to research your source material as well. And there is > no reason to shout at me. That is uncalled for. As far as being proud, I come > from 12 generations of PA, farmers in Chester Co. and I am very proud. And > yes the Dutch are from the Netherlands. I have also been PA-DUTCH, all my > life. And speaking a form of German, does not make it German. The true > Pa-Dutch are the Amish. And we all know they don't tell stories. And you must > not be Amish or you would not be speaking at all. So yes Ma'am, I think you > need to do some more research, before > deciding that you are the final say, in the matter. > > Thank You, > Mary Jane > > ============================== > Personalized Mailing Lists: never miss a connection again. > http://pml.rootsweb.com/ > Brought to you by RootsWeb.com.

The sites below may be of interest if you are looking for info. on the History of the German Language Die Deutschekulturseite: History of the German Language http://res3.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/5011/language.html A Brief History of the German Language http://humanities.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/german.html CBOOE@yadtel.net

On Thu, 25 May 2000 05:59:13 -0700, you wrote: >Would like to know the best place to find an index and information for a >census in PA for the years 1870,1880, and 1890. > >In other words, I would like to find out how to find the right film for my >pursuit? > >Ron Richardson > Hi Ron; There are a couple of indexes available on CD for PA in 1870, Heritage Quest publishes one I know of. As far as I know the 1880 soundex for Pennsylvania is only available at the National Archives regional offices or from your local Family History Center. The 1880 soundex also only includes heads of families who had children under 10. The 1890 Federal Census was destroyed in a fire and only a few pages survive for the whole country. Sometimes the only way is to go through the census schedules line by line on microfilm. If you know the county and township it's not too bad. If you know only the county it's painfull but possible. Regards, Bob Bob Starkins mailto:rstarkins@earthlink.net

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=4762 Surname: ------------------------- Sam Strasser was born in 1902 in Iowa. He married Ina Collins. He worked for southern pacific and was a carpentar. I know he died in the late 60's early 70's and has one son William Ray Strasser. I would like to know more though. This is my grandfather I never got to know.

A Good Source for translating German Language to English language: http://world.altavista.com/ If you translate Deutsch in German to English you get German. Many of the German settlers came to America on ships that were owned by the Dutch, but Dutch does not always mean a native of Holland. Dutch is the English pronunciation of the German word Deutsch, meaning German. When the word became a part of the written language of America the spelling conformed to the English manner. The words that follow are English words in the German Language: God - Gott God's Love - Gott lieb Saviour - der Heiland Retter Church - die Kirche Bible - Bibel sin - suende Nagel - nail I Love You - ich liebe dich child - das kind English - englich United States of America - das Amerika Do you speak German - Sprechen Sie Deutsch My (German) Booe Family arrived in 1738 in PA. C. Booe CBOOE@yadtel.net

Hi List: I just want to let any Mease researchers know that I have uploaded some Mease information, from the Lancaster area, to my site. If you are interested my address is http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~mickey Thanks, Brenda

Let's cool it here---discussion is one thing. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. But let's not get into personalities. On this list we do not allow flaming. Be tolerant of your fellow list members--even if you feel they are wrong about something. Joan

In a message dated 5/25/00 11:51:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mmoser@snet.net writes: << REDSKI9136@aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 5/25/00 1:59:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > REDSKI9136@aol.com writes: > > << spoke German (Deusch). My Berger ancestors came in 1744 and my > grandmother, > b 1870 still spoke German, or rather PA Dutch, which is a form of German > understood somewhat in Germany >> > >> I did not write this. MJ

In a message dated 5/25/00 11:51:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mmoser@snet.net writes: << I've been reading Mary Jane's messages all evening. Has a TROll come to play on our list tonight? She sure seems to find fault with what everybody else says. Oh well, children do like to play their silly games. In 3 hours this person has posted 15 messages. Anybody remember seeing her on this list before? Meanwhile, the regular members of this list have been given a chance to say something meaningful on the subject. I do hope that some people have learned something. Marilyn CT >> Hi Marilyn, I did not know this was a private list. Someone should have told me back in the last century, when I joined it. I did nothing wrong. And I was shouted at. Is this how you treat people, because you don't agree? And now you call me a TROLL? What does it matter, if anyone has seen me on the list before? And why do you ask such a question?Yes I believe that your listers have learned somthing. And if their honest about all this, they will tell you so. Thank you to those of you that have answered me on the list, and may everyone have a great Memorial Day Weekend. Mary Jane

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=4760 Surname: Kreider, McKinney, Milne, Piers, Prins, TenHarmsel, Timmermans, Wade ------------------------- I have Martha H. Kreider b. 2/6/1864, d. 11/30/1919 and Amos K. Haverstick b. 3/21/1858, d. 3/17/1942 in my husband's family line. For more info you can e-mail me.

In a message dated 5/25/00 10:02:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, REDSKI9136@aol.com writes: > There is a > website that explains it much better than I could but I can't find the link. > Try this site: http://midatlantic.rootsweb.com/padutch/ It is the PaDutch web site that coordinates with this list. Joan

In a message dated 5/25/00 11:16:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hijodi@home.com writes: << When I think of the earlier Dutch settlers you referred to, I don't think of them as PA Dutch...unless, of course, they stayed and blended with the later settlers to become so. >> Hi Jodi, Yes I can except what you are saying. This I have learned from my research. And I thank you for your kind words about my defending Dutch as Dutch. As a matter of fact, the Dutch started over here in the late 1500's. And the Germans did follow afterwards. I have no problem with Germans. I am German, Irish, PA Dutch, and Lenape Native American. Thank You for your kind reply. I to believe this could be a healthy discussion. Thank You, Mary Jane

Ron, You can also try the Schuylkill County Web Page Census section at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~paschuyl/census.html Mary Lou

In a message dated 5/25/00 10:51:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EBenn5630 writes: << I beg to differ. The Pa Dutch is actually Pa German. From one who was born and bred in the area. A >> I beg to differ with you as well. The Germans did not come here as PA anything. They may have took that title, after getting here. And please remember that when Germany did become Germany, they swallowed up many small countries. Do you know how many different kinds of Germans, there have been in history, as a result of this ? As I said before my people have been in PA, for 12 generations. So this is also from someone born and bred in the area. Thank You, Mary Jane

In a message dated 5/25/00 10:47:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, rstarkins@earthlink.net writes: << >In other words, I would like to find out how to find the right film for my >pursuit? > >Ron Richardson >> Hi Ron, Who are you looking for? I only need a name an state. Mary Jane

Yes Ma'am. The Pennsylvania Dutch who are proud to be so in PA even today - and many still speak our form of German ARE NOT DUTCH FROM NETHERLANDS. We are of German background. At one time there were more German speaking people in PA than English speaking and it was a question whether the official language of the colony should be German! The name comes from those blasted English speaking folks hearing German and having the speakers say they were speaking their native language, Deusch! My folks all belonged to the German Reformed Church, while the Dutch in NY and NJ belonged to the Dutch Reformed Church (among other denominations of course) Cathy ----- Original Message ----- From: <REDSKI9136@aol.com> To: <PADUTCHgenONLY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: Re: [PaDgo] NEWCOMER SURNAME > In a message dated 5/25/00 8:30:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > o2bab@bedford.net writes: > > << Can't resist replying! PADutch are those Germans who came early into PA > and > spoke German (Deusch). My Berger ancestors came in 1744 and my grandmother, > b 1870 still spoke German, or rather PA Dutch, which is a form of German > understood somewhat in Germany (as we somewhat understand those from Alabama > and Boston!) >> > > Hi Cathy, I have been researching the Dutch for a long time. My research > says that the Dutch are from the Netherlands. Most did have some type of > German dialect, but they did not speak German per say. The Dutch also did not > come to PA., as PA-DUTCH. They were simply Dutch. The Pa. was added on after > they came to Pennslyvania. If you feel I am wrong, please correct me. > > Mary Jane > > > ============================== > Search ALL of RootsWeb's mailing lists in real time. > RootsWeb's Personalized Mailing Lists: > http://pml.rootsweb.com/ > >

In a message dated 5/25/00 1:59:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, REDSKI9136@aol.com writes: << spoke German (Deusch). My Berger ancestors came in 1744 and my grandmother, b 1870 still spoke German, or rather PA Dutch, which is a form of German understood somewhat in Germany >> Hi again, What about the original Dutch, who came in the 1600's? Almost 2 centeries before your grandmother got here. There was no Germany then. Thank You, Mary Jane PS, Could you please define the term, (somewhat understood )

In a message dated 5/25/00 2:27:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, larmil-1@att.net writes: << I am by no means an expert. I believe many of our ancestors who arrived in the 1700's actually came from the Netherlands - that is where the ship departed, not where they actually lived. Where they actually lived was in that particular part of Europe. As I understand there was no Germany at that time. A number of my ancestors were from the Rheinland Pfalz (Rhineland Palatinate) area of what is now Germany. The confusion of origin is not unusual. In other lines (not PA-Dutch) I have ancestors who were thought to have come from Great Britian. Further research revealed that they came from mainland Europe with a stop in Britain. >> Hi Larry, I enjoyed your comments. And you are right. MJ