Here are several excerpts from a letter someone wrote me. There was one fairly prominent Wagner family in Cumru, a Lt. John Wagner with wife Susannah. They had about 10 kids, and the third child was named Henry. Lt. John (from the Revolutionary War) had a decent-sized acreage; I have seen his will in Reading. Yes, Cumru is right across the river from Exeter, just to the southwest. you are right that there were so many obscure Wagners out of Berks, propertyless and hanging on by their teeth, and particularly in Cumru, which was poor and largely Welsh Baptist. There was not even a Reformed Church for them in Cumru that I can find (none, at least, in Glattfelter's book, 1948). OK, start spilling it, folks. This is the first I've heard of a prominent Revolutionary War era Johannes Wagner in Berks County, let alone with wife Susanna. My Henry WAgner married to Elizabeth, having children apparently in Alsace or Exeter by the 1770's begin showing up in Schwarwald's records in 1782, constantly exchanged baptismal sponsorship of children with Johannes Wagner and wife Susanna, apparently of Exeter too but it's very hard to tell. They also begin to show up in the Schwarzwald records in 1782, which does not mean they lived in Reading or took up a new place of residence in 1782. As you can see from below, Cumru was not on the other side of the county from Alsace and Exeter, where someone told me it is, it was adjacent to Exeter. Though from the description I am wondering if alot of people kind of think the place was on the other side of the galaxy from all those prosperous, wealthy, moderately religious and completely sane people we on these lists mostly think were our Berks County ancestors. Me included - I've sure never heard anyone was poor here, before, let alone Welsh Baptist - certainly never entertained the possibility! :/ Further, a Johannes Wagner married Susanna Liesz, and Johannes and Susanna's children were often sponsored by other Liesz's. Can people please tell me more about this Lt. Johannes/ John Wagner of the Revolutionary War and his wife Susan - and their ten children? Also, exactly where they lived and owned land. And where to find information on this family. Also, I had assumed that John and Henry Wagner owned land if they lived in Berks County, had alot of children and did not live in Reading. What would those two have done and where would they or anyone else have lived in Exeter, Alsace and Cumru if they did not own land? If they would have needed to have some sort of a trade in lieu of owning land, where might I find some sort of record of it? Were most people in Cumru poor? Did most people who did own land there own small amounts of it? I hear mostly about people in Berks County who owned huge quantities of land from very early points in time, had manic energy levels and drive, and became extremely prosperous. Like my Deharts, atleast one Burkhart family, the Keim's, and the Schneiders, and the Wagner family of Bern. For that matter, where do I find tax records for Berks County for 1770 through 1810? I wrote to the Berks County tax office, sent a few bucks for zeroxing, and a SASE, and never got any response - and there is zit anywhere I can find on even how to get those records. Lot of info on how to get wills, vital records - but not on how to get tax records. Also, this is the first I've heard about Welsh Baptists in Cumru. I wonder how it can be that there is so little information and apparent awareness on those of these lists that pertain to that area, that THOSE varmints were around? It's a far more glaring and important thing to miss than being unaware of poverty. Is it true that this is the only church that was there for people to attend? Where did people of German background who lived in Cumru actually attend church? My own staunchly mixed Presbyterian and Reformed ancestors who lived in southeastern Chester County also lived in a town whose only church was Welsh Baptist; they drove 12 miles to a nearby town where there was a Presbyterian church every Sunday. People should be aware of it if this church was really there and many people in that place belonged to it, if only because it is nearly impossible to find any sort of vital records on any family that was Welsh/ Primitive Baptist. Just the way people need to know that Spies Church in Alsace kept burning down and losing its records, though people told me that alot faster than they told me there were Welsh Baptists! The Welsh Baptists were so strict they didn't even accept most children of their members, I think they drove most of them away which was not easy to accomplish in the 18th century, they managed to alienate my Dehaven 4th cousin's ancestor completely from religion ca 1820 in a town where everyone was religious, and they accepted nobody before adulthood. This isn't because they were Welsh; in fact, in Pennsylvania before many years had gone by a large proportion of them weren't Welsh at all; it is because they were among the most extreme, if oldest, of the Anabaptist sects, and that accounts for why groups of these particular Welsh came to this country. To this day, these "Give me that old time religion" creators of the Old Time Bible Hour or whatever its called think Jerry Falwell and Pat Roberts, and the entire Southern Baptist movement (the mainstream Fundamentalist church of the South, and the parent church of Billy Graham) are left wing liberals in league with Satan. They are not to be confused with the Baptist movement, which evolved from the Anabaptist movement and once included the Primitive Baptists, and I think also took part in the Great Awakening, but in the North and in urban areas quickly became a liberal denomination that many of our nation's early leaders belonged to, similar to the Pennsylvania Dutch Brethren. That is why few Welsh Baptist christening records exist and why they don't name peoples' parents. It also is important to knowing the context of one's ancestry, and can be a clue to finding one's ancestors. Where was the nearest very extreme church or what was the most extreme church around - my ancestors were fairly predictably at THAT one! I am tracing a family history of manic depression that as manic depression often does branches out many ways in my lines, and nearly all people who were my ancestors were very prone to joining movements of this nature - nearly any sect that was more intense and evangelical than the Reformed and the Presbyterians, and in the case of my father's people, even the Puritans. (There were of course exceptions - my Rice, Willard and DAvis ancestors, who prospered and led communities when manic and migrated every time they got into a depressed phase, were simply sales geniuses addicted to land speculation, who though consistently religiously correct sometimes got executed as witches for land speculation and psychotic episodes, and one of my Deharts, whose mother is thought to most likely have come from an Oley New Born family, kind of cyclically went to Philadelphia, opened up a big weaving shop, and lived in the two (yup, two) mansions he bought across the street from the mayor's residence, got ruined, and crawled home.) My seeming Ritter, Schneider and Keim connections turn out to all have been Moravian! None of them were ORIGINALLY Moravian - though some had been Mennonite. Someone recently posted to one of these lists that the Moravians were Oley's version of the Great Awakening! You know, like Rev. Jonathan Edwards, who incidentally is also my ancestor - Tuttle line. Some of my people in Chester County (other children of the inlaws) became Welsh Baptists because the Dehavens were originally Anabaptist, got themselves chased around Europe in circles and burned at the stake everytime they stopped to catch their breaths, and never changed their temperament; and because the descendants of Jesse Dehaven have always been the most seriously manic depressive temperament with consistent mental health problems of the Dehavens, and the Presbyterians and Reformed weren't intensely enough Calvinistic and Evangelical for them. Now that I know where the Welsh Baptists were, it sounds possible that my Burkhart and Wagner ancestors may have been drawn to Cumru like the place had a magnet. A-a-a-rgh! Yours, Dora Smith __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/

Here is the reference for anyone interested in PA DUTCH traditions. The reference for the book with the PA DUTCH customs is "Blue Hills and Shoofly Pie in Pennsylvania Dutchland", by Ann Hark. Printed in Phila., PA by Lippincott, 1952. Dewey Number 917.48 Library of Congress number F160.G3H27. Joan in Oregon -----Original Message----- From: Apryland@aol.com <Apryland@aol.com> To: PADUTCHgenONLY-L@rootsweb.com <PADUTCHgenONLY-L@rootsweb.com>; chelson@web-ster.com <chelson@web-ster.com> Date: Friday, June 30, 2000 11:52 PM Subject: Re: PADUTCH culture > >In a message dated 6/29/00 15:05:16, PADUTCHgenONLY-D-request@rootsweb.com >writes: > ><< I think I read about Mountain Mary in the book (I believe is titled) "Blue >Hills and Shoe-fly Pie". It had lots of information about Moravian, >Mennonite and PA Dutch customs. If you can't find it in your library, let me >know and I'll get the full publishing information. I read it several years >ago and felt as though I was reliving my youth. I grew up in Berks and >Lancaster County and was aware of many things she mentioned. It even >included the Pow Wow traditions. Great reading!! > >> > >Joan, Please share the publishing information. > >Have you'se all read Hex by Arthur H Lewis? It should be required reading >for all York Countians and anyone with an interest in the PA Dutch culture. >(I'm often on my soapbox against the 'dumb dutchman' phobia. Lewis's account >serves a pretty good example of how my grandparents' generation were so >desperate to 'think the world of themselves' and break from their past. Did >they have any clue that their offspring would want to know what they'd gone >through?) > >I purchased my copy of Hex at Border's books in York, but the printer's >information lists the YORK NEWS AGENCY INC., 1141 S Edgar St, Box 1187, York, >PA 17405 > >Apryl Zarfos Anderson > Researching ZARFOS, CRALEY, OBERDORFF, GOTTWALT, TYSON, LAUCKS, >WALTEMYER, SMITH & RAFFENSBURGER, PAULES, HERBST, STRAYER, DIEHL, RUPP, >SECHRIST & FREY, STINE & GROVE, HOWARD, EBERLY, BULL, McGUIGAN, GRIM, HAUGH, >TOME, SCHLEGELMILICH, ZERCHER, TRAUTWEIN, FLICHBAUGH, WEIGLE, SCHULTZ, >SAYLOR, ILGES, WACKERMAN...darned-near anybody who'd lived a coupl'a >generations in Windsor & Chanceford townships, York Co, PA. >

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5008 Surname: LEHMAN ------------------------- I saw your query and I have the LEHMAN family near Manheim, PA. Hans LEHMAN was installed as a minister in the Mennonite Church there. Does this ring a bell?

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5007 Surname: Angstadt, Beitenman, Drumheller, Yerger ------------------------- There is some information on Mountain Mary at the Historical Society of Berks County in Reading. They may be able to help you with the information you are looking for.

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5006 Surname: Angstadt, Beitenman, Drumheller, Yerger ------------------------- I am looking for any information regarding the Beitenman's of Pike Twp, near Oley, in Berks County, PA. My gg-grandmother was Rebecca A. Beitenman, 1824-1879, daughter of Samuel and Catherine. All are buried in Hill Church Cemetary. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Good evening, listmembers, Is there anyone out there who has a good grasp on the spoken Pennsylvania Dutch dialect? I am dedicating a memorial for the BREON family, of PA Dutch descent, and would like to be able to say some certain things in PA Dutch, but am woefully ignorant of this language of my ancestors. If anyone out there can help me, e-mail me and I can tell you what I would like to say. Thanks so much for the help! Justin Justin Kirk Houser Genealogist/Researcher of Central PA and Beyond Main Lines: Houser, Breon, Shawley, Ranio (and others) President, BAHS Class of 2003 Chair, Clinton County (PA) Genealogical Society Cemetery Project Listowner, PACENTRE-L@Rootsweb.com Member, Valley View United Methodist Church "All the Way My Savior Leads Me"

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://genconnect.rootsweb.com/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5004 Surname: FLECK, AUSTIN, HUTCHISON ------------------------- If anyone has any info pertaining to the above names FLECK - James whom married Margaret Cook sister of James Cook.I am under the belief we are related through AUSTIN and Hutchison marriage. Any info would be apppreiated Thanks Cathy

In a message dated 6/23/00 06:01:25, PADUTCHgenONLY-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: << It looks like Oyster Point is a part of Camp Hill. >> Why was it called Oyster Point? That's a bit far north of the bay for those lil blighters to swim, or? What's the history? Apryl

In a message dated 6/29/00 15:05:16, PADUTCHgenONLY-D-request@rootsweb.com writes: << I think I read about Mountain Mary in the book (I believe is titled) "Blue Hills and Shoe-fly Pie". It had lots of information about Moravian, Mennonite and PA Dutch customs. If you can't find it in your library, let me know and I'll get the full publishing information. I read it several years ago and felt as though I was reliving my youth. I grew up in Berks and Lancaster County and was aware of many things she mentioned. It even included the Pow Wow traditions. Great reading!! >> Joan, Please share the publishing information. Have you'se all read Hex by Arthur H Lewis? It should be required reading for all York Countians and anyone with an interest in the PA Dutch culture. (I'm often on my soapbox against the 'dumb dutchman' phobia. Lewis's account serves a pretty good example of how my grandparents' generation were so desperate to 'think the world of themselves' and break from their past. Did they have any clue that their offspring would want to know what they'd gone through?) I purchased my copy of Hex at Border's books in York, but the printer's information lists the YORK NEWS AGENCY INC., 1141 S Edgar St, Box 1187, York, PA 17405 Apryl Zarfos Anderson Researching ZARFOS, CRALEY, OBERDORFF, GOTTWALT, TYSON, LAUCKS, WALTEMYER, SMITH & RAFFENSBURGER, PAULES, HERBST, STRAYER, DIEHL, RUPP, SECHRIST & FREY, STINE & GROVE, HOWARD, EBERLY, BULL, McGUIGAN, GRIM, HAUGH, TOME, SCHLEGELMILICH, ZERCHER, TRAUTWEIN, FLICHBAUGH, WEIGLE, SCHULTZ, SAYLOR, ILGES, WACKERMAN...darned-near anybody who'd lived a coupl'a generations in Windsor & Chanceford townships, York Co, PA.

I'm looking for the line of Leah MOYER born in Lebanon Co, PA 1809-1895. Married to John EYER of Franklin Co, PA. Daughter of Benjamin MOYER. Ring any bells, Moyers? Apryl Zarfos Anderson

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5003 Surname: Reihley, Walters, Durschunable, Nil ------------------------- After searching far and wide in Pa I have yet to see a Durschunable (or a variant) in any surname list, database etc. It has been suggested that I have the name 'translated' in order to search that way. Is SKS able to help? Prefer reply offline if possible. TIA, Cj

As a special tribute to the 4th of July holiday coming up, I would like to take this opportunity to wish all veterans a safe and happy day, and to say thank you for what you gave to our country. I would also like to invite all of you to go to my webpage and browse thru the long list of names of those in my families who served this country in times of conflict since prior to the Revolutionary War. I am very proud to make the Veteran's Honor Roll a special part of my webpage. Bill Hughes kinseeker4@earthlink.net http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~bhughes/

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5002 Surname: Bieri-Biery, Hunsucker-Hunsicker ------------------------- Nicholas Bieri of Switzerland whose daughter Maria m. Johannes Hunsucker and came to Pa then migrated to NC> Thanks, JOY

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5001 Surname: KRAMER ------------------------- I would be interested in receiving a copy of your KrAMER Genealogy information. I am willing to reimburse you for any cost. Please respond to pwright@rochester.rr.com. I am willing to give you my home address directly to you, not through the query. Pauline

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=5000 Surname: Kramer, Whisler ------------------------- Hello, I have a Catherine G Whisler whom married to Harry Kramer. She was my g-grandmother born 1868 and died 1947. They had 13 children. Is this any connection?

Hi, Sharon. Saw your posting on PADUTCH SITE. Would love the info on Johannes. I am a descendant. Hunsicker Posted by Susan Hunsicker <shunsicker@bfree.on.ca&gmjw@hotmail.com> on Tue, 13 Jul 1999, in response to Searching Rex and Peter Surnames, posted by Ann Miller on Sat, 08 May 1999. I finally figured out the address.......... Surname: Hunsicker I am in possession of the Hunsicker book of 1911 by Henry A. Hunsicker, a descendent of Valentine Hunsicker. In the appendix II, pg. 324-334, The Hunsicker family of Lehigh Co. lists Johannes as the original progenitor of that Hunsicker family. I would be happy to share it with anyone interested in this family.

Hello Iam looking for Bergeys, Minninger, Hunsberger, Hellermen, Kemp Dettra, if you got any of these names please reply thank you chris clifton >From: PADUTCHgenONLY-D-request@rootsweb.com >Reply-To: PADUTCHgenONLY-L@rootsweb.com >To: PADUTCHgenONLY-D@rootsweb.com >Subject: PADUTCHgenONLY-D Digest V00 #152 >Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2000 08:00:29 -0700 > ><< message2.txt >> ><< message4.txt >> ><< message6.txt >> ><< message8.txt >> ><< message10.txt >> ><< message12.txt >> ><< message14.txt >> ><< message16.txt >> ><< message18.txt >> ><< message20.txt >> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=4999 Surname: Rockefeller ------------------------- Searching for info on Duhl Rockefeller and Eva Konrad Son Walter born Feb. 1801 in Germantown, Columbia Co. This is my family line. I have some information from Walter to present day in Ontario but I really would like to go further back. Also, happy to share any info I have. please Email devans@kwic.com

Posted on: Pennsylvania Dutch Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/USA/Pa/Dutch?read=4998 Surname: BEZDOLNYI ------------------------- Dear Sirs, I am seeking the any information about BEZDOLNYI. In you may help me please let me know. I'll be very appreciated you. Thank you

Looking for information on the line of William YOUNG aka Wilhelm JUNG of Windsor twp, York Co, PA born ca.1750. Married Veronica MICHAEL (b.1757). Children Magdalena Elizabeth YOUNG (married Philip MILLER); Catherine YOUNG (married Michael ECKERT) and Mary Ann YOUNG (1788-1851) married George HAUGH in 1810 at the First Reformed Church, York. [Have much information on the HAUGH/HAAG line of Chanceford twp, York Co, PA] Apryl