...and the city of lancaster was laid out in 1729 in a tavern owned by my 5g grandfather GEORGE GIBSON called sign of the willow in what is now lancaster. if memory serves me correctly, it was gov hamilton who did the laying out. and this is off the top of my head but i think hamilton owned some lots and he was laying them out and then going to sell them? sounds just like modern day politicians, but then this is just memory so i could be all confused, sigh..... my GIBSON ancestors never got to centre county. they got as far as CUMBERLAND/PERRY shermans dale and stayed put. marcia marcia sandmeyer wilson 259 leonia ave. leonia, nj 07605 please check out my website: http://marciasandmeyerwilson.com On Jan 8, 2007, at 5:53 PM, Justin Kirk Houser wrote: > The three original counties in Pennsylvania were Bucks, Chester, and > Philadelphia Counties (1682). Lancaster County, the fourth county, > was created from Chester in 1729. > > At 04:33 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >> Lancaster County was one of the first three counties of PA. When it >> originated it was also a county with many Scots-Irish. So, it's >> important to keep in mind the time period in which one is >> searching. Back in the 1700's I think it might have been also >> considered a Scots-Irish county, or at least parts of it were. This >> was a surprise to me when I first started looking into my >> ancestors. I had always thought of Lancaster County as the >> "heartland" of the "Pennsylvania Dutch." That may be true now, but >> was maybe not always the case. >> Sue G. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACENTRE- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

I have posted this to the YOST email list, maybe someone can help there. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 4:43 PM Subject: [PACENTRE] YOST > > Hi Listers, > > After much thought and in the interests of genealogy pertaining to the > lister researching YOST I have decided to post this article to the site. > I hope > that it helps someone with their research. > > Kim > > > FERNDALE, Pa. (Jan. 7) - A western Pennsylvania man is trying to solve a > mystery that recently landed in his mailbox: a letter mailed more than 50 > years > ago and addressed to a Frederick Zane Yost. > > The letter, with a 3-cent stamp and postmarked Oct. 26, 1954, was encased > in > a large Postal Service window envelope. There is a return address -- in > nearby Richland Township -- but no sender's name. > > Brian McAteer said that the letter appears to be sealed and has not been > damaged, and that he will not open it. However, he hasn't had any luck > finding > Yost. Among his efforts have been to contact Yosts in the area, speak > with > longtime residents and search on the Internet. > > "I haven't given up trying to find him," McAteer, a road foreman, told > the > Tribune-_Democrat_ (javascript:;) of Johnstown. > > The newspaper reported that its archives show Yost's parents, both of > whom > are dead, lived in Ferndale in 1954. His father was a sports editor at > the > newspaper, which reported that the younger Yost had moved to Florida. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The three original counties in Pennsylvania were Bucks, Chester, and Philadelphia Counties (1682). Lancaster County, the fourth county, was created from Chester in 1729. At 04:33 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >Lancaster County was one of the first three counties of PA. When it >originated it was also a county with many Scots-Irish. So, it's >important to keep in mind the time period in which one is >searching. Back in the 1700's I think it might have been also >considered a Scots-Irish county, or at least parts of it were. This >was a surprise to me when I first started looking into my >ancestors. I had always thought of Lancaster County as the >"heartland" of the "Pennsylvania Dutch." That may be true now, but >was maybe not always the case. >Sue G.

Karl, Thanks for your extensive commentary. See my notes below: At 12:33 PM 1/8/2007, Karl Moyer wrote: > With great gratitude always to Justin for his good and helpful work in >our behalf, let me try to just a teeny bit clarity what he wrote here: > > > Centre County's settlement can be understood, briefly, in this way: > > > > 1700s - initial influx of Scots-Irish > (Presbyterian) settlers in the valleys > > 1790s-1840s - "Pennsylvania Dutch" (Lutheran and Reformed, > > Evangelical/United Brethren, a few Mennonite) move into the valleys > > from the southeastern counties; > >These are separate groups: >Lutherans (all based on what some of us call the "Muhlenberg" tradition, >recognizing that Muhlenberg was NOT the earliest of these immigrants), who >taught principally from Luther's Large (for pastors) and Small (for family >use) Cathecisms, the Augsburg Confession, etc. I'd be interested to know more about the "Muhlenberg" tradition. Is this a primary distinction from, say, the Zinzendorf tradition or the John Casper Stoever tradition? (I know those two were often at loggerheads, as was Pastor Stoever generally, it appears!) >German Reformed: followers of Ulrich Zwingi from the Palatinate (die Pfalz, >now part of the state of Rheinland-Pfalz) and who taughty principally from >the Heidelberg Catechism > >Evangelical Church: followers of Jakob Albrecht (Jacob Albright), for whom >Albright College in Reading PA is named. His followers were esp. numerous >NW in (present-day) Union, Snyder, and Centre Counties -- others also? -- >but also in (present-day) Lancaster, Lebanon, Berks, Northampton, Lehigh >Counties -- perhaps a few others also? -- and the Evangelical Home and >hospital just north of Lewisburg reflects this history. The Evangelical Association "Albrights" had a strong foothold in the German valleys -- Penns Valley and Brush Valley in particular. The Woodward congregation traces its origins back to 1806, and I believe Rev. Albright made personal visitations here. Humorous anecdotes on the activities of some of the Gramlys and Spanglers following their conversion regarding the use of whisky for farm hands at harvest time (they disallowed it) and the outcry of their Lutheran-Reformed neighbors is found in the Miles Township section of Linn's History, and is entertaining reading. The Fourth General Conference of the Evangelical Association was held at the Paradise Church in Penn Twp. in 1839, with Bishop Johannes Seybert, I believe, presiding. Trinity Evangelical Church in Bellefonte was not founded until 1889. This was my grandmother Houser's home church before she married my grandfather. Centre County was heavily impacted by the Esher-Dubbs split (1894-1922), with most of the congregations here following Bishop Dubbs and adhering to the United Evangelical Church. This resulted in a near-doubling of congregations, as they lost title to the buildings, and a few Esherites tenaciously hung on, but most succumbed. The Historical Society of the Central Pennsylvania Conference of the United Methodist Church documented many of these congregations in its annual publication some years back. One of the notable "Esher" congregations included the Egg Hill Church in Potter Twp., under the legacy of "Father David Hennigh" (1809-1891), which closed in 1927. After the reunification in 1922, most of the congregations ended up in the Dubbs buildings, often across the street from the old buildings, some of which are in use as houses today. >United Brethren Church -- more properly, the United Brethren in Christ >Church: followers of the famous meeting of German Reformed pastor Philipp >Otterbein and Mennonite preacher Martin Böhm (or if you wish, Boehm), at the >barn on the farm of one Mr. Long in Manheim Township, just north of >Lancaster. This meeting gradually led to the founding of this denomination >ca 1800 at Frederick, MD, with the name comign from the words of Otterbein >at Long's barn, "Wir sind Brüder" -- "We are brothers." Otterbein was a >pastor at York PA at the time of the Long's Barn meeting, but he became >pastor of the German Reformed congregation in Baltimore which still exists >in the "Inner Harbor area and just a bit east of Oriole Field at Camden >Yards; the church now bears the name Otterbein United Methodist Church, for >it went along into the newly-formed United Brethren in Christ denomination >soon after 1800, one of the ancestors of the present-day United Methodist >Church. NB.: this group is not to be confused with an Anabaptist group >established in Pennsylvania and known to this day as the Brethren in Christ >Church, which, for example, operates Messiah College at Grantham, not many >miles south of Harrisburg. > > The "Albrighters" became numerous northwest of Harrisburg. I am not >aware if the Untied Brethren did and would be grateful to be updated on that >question. Justin, this is, indeed, YOUR church heritage. Would you be >willing to take all of us a step yet further in detail? The Church of the United Brethren in Christ also had a strong foothold in parts of Centre County. They did not take off in Penns Valley, although there was a church at Millheim connected with the celebrated Rev. Adam Noon, and also a congregation at Rebersburg for a short time. My 4th great grandfather, Rev. Martin Houser, was a circuit-rider for the UB Church, and was active in congregations at Houserville, Bellefonte, and other places. (The Bellefonte congregation is one of the ancestors of Faith UMC in Bellefonte, one of the largest churches in the area.) There were also UB churches at Valley View (my church), Stormstown, Paradise (Patton Twp.), and a string of them in the upper Bald Eagle Valley (Hannah, Martha, Mount Pleasant, etc.) and the efforts of Rev. Homer Gauntt in the 1930s created Woodycrest and Buffalo Run United Brethren Churches. There were probably several others I'm not thinking of at the moment. > Interesting, too: the German Lutherans and the German Reformed often >shared the same church building, and the old joke used to be that sometimes >their services of worship were so similar that you couldn't tell which >denomination's pastor was holding forth until they prayed the Lord's Prayer, >where the Lutherans began "Vater unser in Himmelreich" and the Reformed >"Unser Vater in Himmelreich." Such "union churches" remain, including one >of my family background in Freeburg, Snyder Co. I assume that the Lutherans >and Reformed once shared the same buildings in Rebersburg in Brush Valley, >Centre Co, another of my family ancestry sites, and at Centre Hall. >Aaronsburg, Millheim, and Tusseyville also? There are two union churches left in Centre County -- Emmanuel Union Church at Tusseyville, and St. John's Union Church at Farmers Mills, Gregg Twp. Rebersburg was union until 1876; Boalsburg was union until the 1850s or 1860s (you would know that date, Karl). Penns Creek Church in Gregg Twp. was union until 1859, giving birth to Penns Creek Lutheran (now defunct) and Salem UCC (now) in Penn Twp. Centre Hall church was union for some period of time. Aaronsburg was never union; the Salem Lutheran and St. Peter's Reformed congregations had separate buildings and graveyards from the 1790s forward. I do not know whether Millheim had a union church. Holy Cross Lutheran in Gregg Twp. was union from ca. 1848 to ca. 1871, when the Reformed side disintegrated. The church at Pine Hall, Ferguson Twp., may have been union for some length of time. Pine Grove Mills also had a union church, with the Lutheran side surviving to this day in a new building. Maybe more. > The two definitely shared the same building in Boalsburg until the >Reformed congregation erected her own building just south of the Lutheran >building. One of my family folks, Henry Meyer, buried right next to the >west wall of the present-day Lutheran building, was a leader in the Reformed >congregation in he days when the Reformed worshiped in the "union church" >on where the current Lutheran building now stands. Indeed, it would be >interesting to see a list of "union churches" (Lutheran and Reformed and >with perhaps other denominational bodies joining them) in Centre Co. >Perhaps such a list already exists; yes? > > What writing exists regarding the relationship of the Scotts-Irish >(thus, often Presbyterians, as at Center Hill, not far north of Potters Mill >at the corner where the road goes to Tusseyville) and the Germans. There >would have been at least a bit closer theological concordance, if not >cultural bearing, between the German Reformed and the Presbyterians, both >being of the overall "reformed" background, but it is important how the >cultural similarities brought Lutherans and German Reformed together in >"union churches" despite sharp differences in certain areas of theological >disputation. Yes, the early English-speaking recorders often called the German Reformed people "Calvinist Presbyterian" or some such terminology in their records. You and I discussed this, concerning the church at Reamstown, a few years back on the Lancaster Co. list, as I recall. I've not done a lot of research in the area of cultural interaction -- that would be very interesting. > Mit besten Grüßen > > Karl E. Moyer > Lancaster PA > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >email to [email protected] with the >word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message

Hi Listers, After much thought and in the interests of genealogy pertaining to the lister researching YOST I have decided to post this article to the site. I hope that it helps someone with their research. Kim FERNDALE, Pa. (Jan. 7) - A western Pennsylvania man is trying to solve a mystery that recently landed in his mailbox: a letter mailed more than 50 years ago and addressed to a Frederick Zane Yost. The letter, with a 3-cent stamp and postmarked Oct. 26, 1954, was encased in a large Postal Service window envelope. There is a return address -- in nearby Richland Township -- but no sender's name. Brian McAteer said that the letter appears to be sealed and has not been damaged, and that he will not open it. However, he hasn't had any luck finding Yost. Among his efforts have been to contact Yosts in the area, speak with longtime residents and search on the Internet. "I haven't given up trying to find him," McAteer, a road foreman, told the Tribune-_Democrat_ (javascript:;) of Johnstown. The newspaper reported that its archives show Yost's parents, both of whom are dead, lived in Ferndale in 1954. His father was a sports editor at the newspaper, which reported that the younger Yost had moved to Florida.

My ancestors: Boone Thompson Dietz Mann Confer Wagner Allen Packer Cumberland County: Oyler/Oiler Fahler/Failor

Who was the Perry John Lucas 1850-1921 whose parents were James J. Lucas 1828-____ and Nancy? I was confused by the bio where it said the one Lucas was known thereafter as Perry John Lucas for having fought under Perry. So census may not agree with fact. This Perry John Lucas is buried in Sylvan Cemetery in Clearfield County, PA. Claire > > From: "tjefferson" <[email protected]> > Date: 2007/01/07 Sun PM 06:17:50 EST > To: <[email protected]> > Subject: [PACENTRE] Lucas > > Does anyone have any information on Perry Lucas' father and mother. Perry > was born 1815 in Centre County. > > Thanks, > > Denise Lucas Jefferson > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Lancaster County was one of the first three counties of PA. When it originated it was also a county with many Scots-Irish. So, it's important to keep in mind the time period in which one is searching. Back in the 1700's I think it might have been also considered a Scots-Irish county, or at least parts of it were. This was a surprise to me when I first started looking into my ancestors. I had always thought of Lancaster County as the "heartland" of the "Pennsylvania Dutch." That may be true now, but was maybe not always the case. Sue G. > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 11:09:47 -0800> From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch> > Lancaster is Penna. Dutch. I liver here and see them all the time here.> > You might want to talk to WGAL tv8 www.wgal.com> or Millersville University, Lancaster Co.,PA. They could answer this question.> > Craig> > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Type your favorite song.  Get a customized station.  Try MSN Radio powered by Pandora. http://radio.msn.com

The U.S. Public Records database at Ancestry.com shows -- Frederick Z. Yost, born 27 Apr 1951 Res. 3 Lake Vista Way Ormond Beach, Volusia Co, FL 32174 Ph. 386-673-3892 Worth a try, I suppose. Fred Houts in MN

In a message dated 1/8/2007 1:04:37 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Is there a way I can get a copy of this magazine? Thanks, Justine SURE! Centre County Genealogical Soc., P.O. Box 1135, State College PA 16804. I do not know what individual copies are, but you might try an e-mail to the pres. - - [email protected]_ (mailto:[email protected]) She could certainly tell you. Fred Houts

The following was posted on the AOL News homepage. Thought I would pass it along in case someone knew the family or could help. Cindy Lobb Westland, MI Updated:2007-01-08 11:06:05 Man Gets Letter Postmarked 1954 AP Talk About It: Post Thoughts FERNDALE, Pa. (Jan. 7) - A western Pennsylvania man is trying to solve a mystery that recently landed in his mailbox: a letter mailed more than 50 years ago and addressed to a Frederick Zane Yost. The letter, with a 3-cent stamp and postmarked Oct. 26, 1954, was encased in a large Postal Service window envelope. There is a return address -- in nearby Richland Township -- but no sender's name. Brian McAteer said that the letter appears to be sealed and has not been damaged, and that he will not open it. However, he hasn't had any luck finding Yost. Among his efforts have been to contact Yosts in the area, speak with longtime residents and search on the Internet. "I haven't given up trying to find him," McAteer, a road foreman, told the Tribune-Democrat of Johnstown. The newspaper reported that its archives show Yost's parents, both of whom are dead, lived in Ferndale in 1954. His father was a sports editor at the newspaper, which reported that the younger Yost had moved to Florida. Tad Kelley, a spokesman for the Postal Service in Pittsburgh, said he could not comment specifically on the letter without investigating. "Sometimes pieces of mail do get lost behind equipment or transporting equipment. ... It is infrequent, but every once in a blue moon, it does happen," Kelley said. "No matter how old it is, we will deliver it." Ferndale is about 65 miles southeast of Pittsburgh.

Is there a way I can get a copy of this magazine? Thanks, Justine -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 2:37 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] Roll Call In a message dated 1/4/2007 1:09:23 P.M. Central Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Re: Heckman research: I have George Heckman b MO 1903, lived in Van Bur Co MI- do you recognize this? Thanks! A lengthy -- and very nicely-done article -- on the HECKMAN Family appeared in the Fall 2006 (Vol. 31, No. 3) edition of our "Centre County ROOTS" magazine. It should be checked. --Fred ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

I would also be interested in this magazine for the Heckman article. Lynn ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] Fall 2006- Centre Co. Roots Magazine > Is there a way I can get a copy of this magazine? > > Thanks, > > Justine > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 2:37 PM > Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] Roll Call > > > > In a message dated 1/4/2007 1:09:23 P.M. Central Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Re: Heckman research: I have George Heckman b MO 1903, lived in Van Bur > Co MI- do you recognize this? > Thanks! > > > > A lengthy -- and very nicely-done article -- on the HECKMAN Family > appeared > in the Fall 2006 (Vol. 31, No. 3) edition of our "Centre County ROOTS" > magazine. It should be checked. --Fred > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body > of > the message > ________________________________________________________________________ > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > free AOL Mail and more. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Still seeking information on my Margaret McKenzie, b. 1848-1850 d. Allport PA 1897, and her marriage to Robert Calhoun b. Apr. 1837 Scotland, d. 1906, Rush Twp. Centre Co., PA. Robert lived in Schuylkill in 1850 census, enlisted for 3 month stretch in CW from Pottsville PA, 3 year stretch in 7 PA CAV from Troy PA. Their daughter Annie married a Harry D. Bloom in 1894 Clearfield PA, I have a photo of their son William Bloom. Michele Gibson Pierson ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com

With great gratitude always to Justin for his good and helpful work in our behalf, let me try to just a teeny bit clarity what he wrote here: > Centre County's settlement can be understood, briefly, in this way: > > 1700s - initial influx of Scots-Irish (Presbyterian) settlers in the valleys > 1790s-1840s - "Pennsylvania Dutch" (Lutheran and Reformed, > Evangelical/United Brethren, a few Mennonite) move into the valleys > from the southeastern counties; These are separate groups: Lutherans (all based on what some of us call the "Muhlenberg" tradition, recognizing that Muhlenberg was NOT the earliest of these immigrants), who taught principally from Luther's Large (for pastors) and Small (for family use) Cathecisms, the Augsburg Confession, etc. German Reformed: followers of Ulrich Zwingi from the Palatinate (die Pfalz, now part of the state of Rheinland-Pfalz) and who taughty principally from the Heidelberg Catechism Evangelical Church: followers of Jakob Albrecht (Jacob Albright), for whom Albright College in Reading PA is named. His followers were esp. numerous NW in (present-day) Union, Snyder, and Centre Counties -- others also? -- but also in (present-day) Lancaster, Lebanon, Berks, Northampton, Lehigh Counties -- perhaps a few others also? -- and the Evangelical Home and hospital just north of Lewisburg reflects this history. United Brethren Church -- more properly, the United Brethren in Christ Church: followers of the famous meeting of German Reformed pastor Philipp Otterbein and Mennonite preacher Martin Böhm (or if you wish, Boehm), at the barn on the farm of one Mr. Long in Manheim Township, just north of Lancaster. This meeting gradually led to the founding of this denomination ca 1800 at Frederick, MD, with the name comign from the words of Otterbein at Long's barn, "Wir sind Brüder" -- "We are brothers." Otterbein was a pastor at York PA at the time of the Long's Barn meeting, but he became pastor of the German Reformed congregation in Baltimore which still exists in the "Inner Harbor area and just a bit east of Oriole Field at Camden Yards; the church now bears the name Otterbein United Methodist Church, for it went along into the newly-formed United Brethren in Christ denomination soon after 1800, one of the ancestors of the present-day United Methodist Church. NB.: this group is not to be confused with an Anabaptist group established in Pennsylvania and known to this day as the Brethren in Christ Church, which, for example, operates Messiah College at Grantham, not many miles south of Harrisburg. The "Albrighters" became numerous northwest of Harrisburg. I am not aware if the Untied Brethren did and would be grateful to be updated on that question. Justin, this is, indeed, YOUR church heritage. Would you be willing to take all of us a step yet further in detail? Interesting, too: the German Lutherans and the German Reformed often shared the same church building, and the old joke used to be that sometimes their services of worship were so similar that you couldn't tell which denomination's pastor was holding forth until they prayed the Lord's Prayer, where the Lutherans began "Vater unser in Himmelreich" and the Reformed "Unser Vater in Himmelreich." Such "union churches" remain, including one of my family background in Freeburg, Snyder Co. I assume that the Lutherans and Reformed once shared the same buildings in Rebersburg in Brush Valley, Centre Co, another of my family ancestry sites, and at Centre Hall. Aaronsburg, Millheim, and Tusseyville also? The two definitely shared the same building in Boalsburg until the Reformed congregation erected her own building just south of the Lutheran building. One of my family folks, Henry Meyer, buried right next to the west wall of the present-day Lutheran building, was a leader in the Reformed congregation in he days when the Reformed worshiped in the "union church" on where the current Lutheran building now stands. Indeed, it would be interesting to see a list of "union churches" (Lutheran and Reformed and with perhaps other denominational bodies joining them) in Centre Co. Perhaps such a list already exists; yes? What writing exists regarding the relationship of the Scotts-Irish (thus, often Presbyterians, as at Center Hill, not far north of Potters Mill at the corner where the road goes to Tusseyville) and the Germans. There would have been at least a bit closer theological concordance, if not cultural bearing, between the German Reformed and the Presbyterians, both being of the overall "reformed" background, but it is important how the cultural similarities brought Lutherans and German Reformed together in "union churches" despite sharp differences in certain areas of theological disputation. Mit besten Grüßen Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA

I lived in Pleasant Gap. I remember a Basil and a Reuben Waite that live on Harrison Rd/. Horntown Rd. Also other families by the name of Waite lived in Pleasant Gap, but at this point in research there is no connection between the two Waite families.

The Strunk, I'm not too sure. They would have lived in the Howard, Pa. area

My grandfather was James E Waite from Bellefonte, Pa.

Lancaster is Penna. Dutch. I liver here and see them all the time here. You might want to talk to WGAL tv8 www.wgal.com or Millersville University, Lancaster Co.,PA. They could answer this question. Craig

Hi, Where exactly is Howard , PA ? Kindly Bea [email protected] wrote: The Strunk, I'm not too sure. They would have lived in the Howard, Pa. area ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message