Dr. Moyer, You may want to read the John Smith book on the Russian Mennonites for a little background--and in the off chance your ancestor was Mennonite. Unfortunately, only two pages would give you much information on the Dutch Mennonites that moved into Prussia. Most of them moved into the Vistula delta and south. The name you cite is not one that is common among Russian Mennonites. By 1803, the Mennonites were moving out of Prussia to avoid military conscription. Some did move to the United States and, as you know, into PA. Bethel College in Newton, KS, could assist you with more information as well as Pacific University in Fresno, CA. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Karl Moyer <[email protected]> > > His name was Casper Ross. He emigrated from Holland to Pa in 1802 and settled > > in Centre County. I understand now he really wouldn't be considered > > "Pennsylvania Dutch" however his father was from Germany, Straaslund, mother > > from Amsterdam. Casper was baptised in an Evangelical-Lutheran church in > > Amsterdam. > > Strasslund lies almost due north of Berlin, very near the sea and the > present border of German with Poland and thus in the area once called > Prussia. I am not aware that persons known as "Pa. Dutch" or "Pa Germans" > came from that area of present-day Germany, but my hunch is that person > would not be identified with the Pa. Dutch and did not know the dialect. > Any help on this from anyone? > > His baptism in a Lutheran church in Amsterdam is interesting, given that > Lutheranism was a very small and carefully-controlled minority in Holland. > Lutheran church buildings often were required to be sited back from the > street and NOT to look like church buildings -- thus, no towers, etc. > What's more, baptism among Lutherans was sometimes freely given, as with the > Lutheran pastors in Lancaster PA even baptizing children of Mennonites. > (!!!) That does not necessarily mean that this man was a Lutheran by > training and/or persuasion. > > The name Ross -- or perhaps Roß -- is a German form. means a > horse, or poetically also a "steed." Thus, "sich aufs hohe Roß" means to > get on one's high horse. But in slang the word also can mean "blockhead," > and in vulgar slang it can be combined with " -apfel" to imply in vulgar > terms what comes out the back end of the horse. "Der Apfel" means "apple," > and you can take it from there, I'm sure!! :-) > > Dr. Karl E. Moyer > Lancasterr PA > > Dr. Karl E. Moyer > Lancaster PA > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

...it makes it all the more interesting noting our forefathers were right in the midst of history that we only read about in school. -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 9:37 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] Pennsylvania Dutch Karl I have enjoyed this discussion. Everyone should recognize their heritage and study others just as well. Discussions like this will help everyone to understand America much better. History is not as boring as some would like you to belive. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Moyer" <[email protected]> To: "Center Co List" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch I think -- hope -- this discussion is of sufficient interest and potential enlightenment to many who read Centre Co. - L to once again reply to the list. Please forgive me anyone thinks I'm taking this too far. >> These are separate groups: >> Lutherans (all based on what some of us call the "Muhlenberg" tradition, >> recognizing that Muhlenberg was NOT the earliest of these immigrants), >> who >> taught principally from Luther's Large (for pastors) and Small (for >> family >> use) Cathecisms, the Augsburg Confession, etc. > > I'd be interested to know more about the "Muhlenberg" tradition. Is this > a > primary distinction from, say, the Zinzendorf tradition or the John Casper > Stoever tradition? (I know those two were often at loggerheads, as was > Pastor Stoever generally, it appears!) This phrase "Muhlenberg-tradition" Lutheran churches is only a sort of homespun phrase for some of us. It refers to 17th and 18th-century Lutherans who arrived in the Colonies and gradually spread westward. This group at long last established a theological seminary at Gettysburg in 1826, but that was perhaps 100 years after these folks were already quite numerous in certain places. John Casper Stöver, Jr., founded many such congregations in Pennsylvania. His father was pastor of Hebron Lutheran out in the country near Madison VA, a congregation older than almost ANY Lutheran congregation in PA. The two were ordained by a Rev. Schultz, who came from the Fatherland for that purpose and who then went back home to the Fatherland. "Junior" Stöver was on occasion a problematic figure, perhaps typical of frontier American attitudes that a well-schooled Churchman like Muhlenberg did not find amusing. Muhlenberg brought some degree of order out of relative chaos among Lutherans in the colonies. Perhaps the Paul A. W. Wallace book on Muhlenberg is still one of the more reputable records of Muhlenberg's work, and his is accorded the title "Patriarch of Lutherans in America" or such like. This Lutheran group is to be kept separate from two other primary European Lutheran immigrations in to America in the 19th century: 1. the Saxons and Prussians who were greatly offended by the Kaiser's 1817 (1818?) edict that Lutheran and Reformed were to united into one national "Evangelische Kirche." That was more than stern orthodox Lutherans could stand, and eventually five ships of them came to America. One went down in the ocean, but the others found their way to New Orleans, and these folks made their way up the Mississippi River to the area now called Missouri and became some of the basis of today's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. The other 19th-century Lutheran immigration consisted various Scandinavian Lutheran groups -- Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Finns -- some relatively orthodox but many relatively pietistic. Many settled in cold northern areas of USA, esp. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, North and South Dakota, etc. Many of these joined with descendants of the "Muhlenberg tradition" Lutherans to form the current ELCA (Evan. Luth Ch. in America), whereas the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod remains separate and, faithful to one of the issues that drove them from the Vaterland, very opposed to "unionist" faith and order issues. Passing added comment: the 19th century Saxon and Prussian immigration had certain relationships to the failed 1848 democracy attempt --O.K., Justin, HOW do we label this one? !! -- in (now) Germany, and German Reformed folks ALSO came to New Orleans and up the river to the Missouri, founding what became known as the Evangelical synod of North America. "Evangelical" here does NOT mean Albrighters or other uses of that word; it means German-background "protestant," though now-a-days the word often implies "Lutheran" in Germany. (This terminology is really mixed up!!) This was the group who established Eden Theological Seminary and a printing press in St. Louis, and Elmhurst College near Chicago, among others. This latter group was the "Evangelical" part of the merger with the former German Reformed denomination that became the "Evangelical and Reformed" denomination which many of us can remember. I assume that all of the former E&R churches in Centre Co came from the German Reformed and NOT from the Evangelical Synod of North America. The various permutations of this group all taught from the Heidelberg Catechism, and many congregations descended from them still do. They operated Franklin & Marshall College (men) (Lancaster), Heidelberg College (Tiffin OH), Hood College (women), Frederick MD, Cedar Crest College (also women), Allentown, in PA or vicinity, plus others elsewhere. Most are now co-ed. Their theological seminary has been in Lancaster since 1899, across college Avenue from Franklin & Marshall College. > The Evangelical Association "Albrights" had a strong foothold in the > German > valleys -- Penns Valley and Brush Valley in particular.. My family genealogist Henry Meyer, whose 1890 work I hope in part to update some day in print, made the big jump from German Reformed to Evangelical. He and his family are buried at the (now) United Methodist church cemetery in Rebersburg, which I'll assume was an Evangelical church. Yes, Justin? The earlier of that family --and some later generations also -- were buried in the Lutheran and Reformed Cemetery in Rebersburg instead, given their Reformed background. > Centre County was heavily impacted by the Esher-Dubbs split (1894-1922), > with > most of the congregations here following Bishop Dubbs and adhering to the > United Evangelical Church. This resulted in a near-doubling of > congregations, > as they lost title to the buildings, The court cases on this make really interesting reading!! I assume these cases were as frequent and ugly in Centre Co. as in Lancaster County. Justin, do I have it right: the ecclesial body that became known as the Evangelical Association was the legal inheritor to the former Albright group, and that the United Evangelical Church had to build anew? > After the reunification in 1922, most of the congregations ended up in the > Dubbs buildings, often across the street from the old buildings, some of > which > are in use as houses today. Most of the two parts of the separated denomination went back together, but the East Penna. Conference of one of these - I forget which!! -- would not agree to the merger and formed the Evangelical Congregational Church, which remains a separate ecclesial entity to this day, with particular strength around Allentown but with her theological seminary (since 1952) in the same buildings in Myerstown that once held a predecessor to Albright college. (!!!) Justin, are there any E.C. congregations in Centre Co." I would doubt it. > I do not know whether Millheim had a union church. Yes, and during the 1950's or early 1960's, The Rev. Theodore Schneider over-saw a process of merging a number of small Lutheran congregations into one, the current St. John Lutheran in Millheim. One or two of those former congregations shared buildings with Reformed congregations, but I cannot document which ones. Schneider went to Lancaster in 1964, then to Silver Spring MD in 1986 or 1987, and is now bishop of Metropolitan Washington, D.C. Synod of the ELCA. Some readers of this list likely knew him in his Centre Co. days. For years his organist at St. Johns, Millheim, was Dr. Helen Wise, former of the Penn State faculty and sometime national president of National Education Association. >> What writing exists regarding the relationship of the Scotts-Irish >> (thus, often Presbyterians, as at Center Hill, not far north of Potters >> Mill >> at the corner where the road goes to Tusseyville) and the Germans. There >> would have been at least a bit closer theological concordance, if not >> cultural bearing, between the German Reformed and the Presbyterians, both >> being of the overall "reformed" background, but it is important how the >> cultural similarities brought Lutherans and German Reformed together in >> "union churches" despite sharp differences in certain areas of >> theological >> disputation. > > Yes, the early English-speaking recorders often > called the German Reformed people "Calvinist > Presbyterian" or some such terminology in their > records. Or sometimes German Calvinists, which was a misnomer, given their Zwinglian, not Calvinist, background and with the Heidelberg Catechism (Zwinglian) instead of the Westminster Confession (Presbyterian). > I've not done a lot of research in the area of cultural interaction -- > that > would be very interesting. Is there any writing on this topic? Is this perhaps somebody's Ph.D. dissertation topic some day? Again, I'm sure I write in behalf of man in gratitude to Justin for this list and the opportunity to learn from each other here. Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

My apologies to the list for this personal message..... Hi Betty, I sent several messages to you regarding our Dorman line. Two of them apparently have not been delivered, according to a message I received from AOL. I have sent three messages altogether, and I know you received the first one. If you haven't received the other two, perhaps it would help to put my e-mail address on your AOL list of addresses to accept. Looking forward to hearing from you, Sue

Hi Becky! I have Coleman's from Centre but later moved to OH then Cumberland Co IL, where I have Penningtons. Any P's in S. IL? Regards, Mike in MS ( AZ for now) SVARC / CERNY / HAJEK / HOSEK/ KREISSINGER McCOLLOUGH / COLEMAN / CUTRIGHT / CARRELL / PENNINGTON

Hi List! Researching for my ancestors: JACOB COLEMAN b 1784, what is now Centre Co, Father possibly Jacob also. Married an EMRICH , ca. 1807and later moved to Ohio. COLEMAN's and EMRICH's later moved to Cumberland Co, IL. Regards, Mike in MS ( AZ for now) SVARC / CERNY / HAJEK / HOSEK / KRESINGER / CERMAK McCO / McCULLOUGH / COLEMAN / CUTRIGHT

In 1890 the Waite's and Gill's were suppose to be living in Gilltown, Centre Co. this information is from my brother inlaw, Lester Waite. He said it was located somewhere near the Votec school in Pleasant Gap. ----- Original Message ----- From: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] Waite's in Centre Co. I lived in Pleasant Gap. I remember a Basil and a Reuben Waite that live on Harrison Rd/. Horntown Rd. Also other families by the name of Waite lived in Pleasant Gap, but at this point in research there is no connection between the two Waite families. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

In a message dated 01/08/2007 6:25:56 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: My opinion is that it is somewhat risky to name certain counties as being > "Pennsylvania Dutch" -- that is, risking slighting people of "Pennsylvania > Dutch" heritage who were in counties other than those cited Fred, I concur. I read somewhere - sorry don't have the source handy - that PA Deutsch (Dutch) referred to Germanic language, not national origin. What needs to be remembered is that there was no German state until the late 19th Century. Nor were there other countries in that area which we now recognize. Before that Germanic tribes occupied a vast area, which now include several countries other than what is now considered Germany. This area was an array of principalities, and depending on the local 'prince' who ruled the area, religion became a tool of subjugation and control. Many suffered cruel and unusual punishment if they did not adhere to the local prince's religious edicts; thus the emigration to areas of America which granted freedom of religion. With the use of colloquialisms and subtle changes in word meaning and usage, languages take on a life of their own in different regions over time. As immigrants from Central Europe, now Germany, Austria, Poland, France, Switzerland, etc., with the same linguistic roots, who suffered religious intolerance in Europe. settled in the new world, the Germanic language, or Deutsch, allowed them to interact no matter what their religion. The language became a common denominator for those of different ideologies living in the same area. In Pa the colloquial term for this language: PA Dutch, now recognized as a signifier of a certain culture, people, food, etc., in the U.S. Just my pennie's worth on the discussion. Regards, Jan

I am looking to find a marriage certificate on Robert Edminston & Nancy Ebbs 10/19/1813. What I have says Marriages by John Hutchinson, Pastor, Presbyterian Congregation, Mifflintown and Lost Creek Pennsylvania 1806 - 1844. Was or is the Lost Creek Valley of Mifflintown in Centre Co., Mifflin Co., or Juniata County? Susan

Karl I have enjoyed this discussion. Everyone should recognize their heritage and study others just as well. Discussions like this will help everyone to understand America much better. History is not as boring as some would like you to belive. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karl Moyer" <[email protected]> To: "Center Co List" <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch I think -- hope -- this discussion is of sufficient interest and potential enlightenment to many who read Centre Co. - L to once again reply to the list. Please forgive me anyone thinks I'm taking this too far. >> These are separate groups: >> Lutherans (all based on what some of us call the "Muhlenberg" tradition, >> recognizing that Muhlenberg was NOT the earliest of these immigrants), >> who >> taught principally from Luther's Large (for pastors) and Small (for >> family >> use) Cathecisms, the Augsburg Confession, etc. > > I'd be interested to know more about the "Muhlenberg" tradition. Is this > a > primary distinction from, say, the Zinzendorf tradition or the John Casper > Stoever tradition? (I know those two were often at loggerheads, as was > Pastor Stoever generally, it appears!) This phrase "Muhlenberg-tradition" Lutheran churches is only a sort of homespun phrase for some of us. It refers to 17th and 18th-century Lutherans who arrived in the Colonies and gradually spread westward. This group at long last established a theological seminary at Gettysburg in 1826, but that was perhaps 100 years after these folks were already quite numerous in certain places. John Casper Stöver, Jr., founded many such congregations in Pennsylvania. His father was pastor of Hebron Lutheran out in the country near Madison VA, a congregation older than almost ANY Lutheran congregation in PA. The two were ordained by a Rev. Schultz, who came from the Fatherland for that purpose and who then went back home to the Fatherland. "Junior" Stöver was on occasion a problematic figure, perhaps typical of frontier American attitudes that a well-schooled Churchman like Muhlenberg did not find amusing. Muhlenberg brought some degree of order out of relative chaos among Lutherans in the colonies. Perhaps the Paul A. W. Wallace book on Muhlenberg is still one of the more reputable records of Muhlenberg's work, and his is accorded the title "Patriarch of Lutherans in America" or such like. This Lutheran group is to be kept separate from two other primary European Lutheran immigrations in to America in the 19th century: 1. the Saxons and Prussians who were greatly offended by the Kaiser's 1817 (1818?) edict that Lutheran and Reformed were to united into one national "Evangelische Kirche." That was more than stern orthodox Lutherans could stand, and eventually five ships of them came to America. One went down in the ocean, but the others found their way to New Orleans, and these folks made their way up the Mississippi River to the area now called Missouri and became some of the basis of today's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. The other 19th-century Lutheran immigration consisted various Scandinavian Lutheran groups -- Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Finns -- some relatively orthodox but many relatively pietistic. Many settled in cold northern areas of USA, esp. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, North and South Dakota, etc. Many of these joined with descendants of the "Muhlenberg tradition" Lutherans to form the current ELCA (Evan. Luth Ch. in America), whereas the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod remains separate and, faithful to one of the issues that drove them from the Vaterland, very opposed to "unionist" faith and order issues. Passing added comment: the 19th century Saxon and Prussian immigration had certain relationships to the failed 1848 democracy attempt --O.K., Justin, HOW do we label this one? !! -- in (now) Germany, and German Reformed folks ALSO came to New Orleans and up the river to the Missouri, founding what became known as the Evangelical synod of North America. "Evangelical" here does NOT mean Albrighters or other uses of that word; it means German-background "protestant," though now-a-days the word often implies "Lutheran" in Germany. (This terminology is really mixed up!!) This was the group who established Eden Theological Seminary and a printing press in St. Louis, and Elmhurst College near Chicago, among others. This latter group was the "Evangelical" part of the merger with the former German Reformed denomination that became the "Evangelical and Reformed" denomination which many of us can remember. I assume that all of the former E&R churches in Centre Co came from the German Reformed and NOT from the Evangelical Synod of North America. The various permutations of this group all taught from the Heidelberg Catechism, and many congregations descended from them still do. They operated Franklin & Marshall College (men) (Lancaster), Heidelberg College (Tiffin OH), Hood College (women), Frederick MD, Cedar Crest College (also women), Allentown, in PA or vicinity, plus others elsewhere. Most are now co-ed. Their theological seminary has been in Lancaster since 1899, across college Avenue from Franklin & Marshall College. > The Evangelical Association "Albrights" had a strong foothold in the > German > valleys -- Penns Valley and Brush Valley in particular.. My family genealogist Henry Meyer, whose 1890 work I hope in part to update some day in print, made the big jump from German Reformed to Evangelical. He and his family are buried at the (now) United Methodist church cemetery in Rebersburg, which I'll assume was an Evangelical church. Yes, Justin? The earlier of that family --and some later generations also -- were buried in the Lutheran and Reformed Cemetery in Rebersburg instead, given their Reformed background. > Centre County was heavily impacted by the Esher-Dubbs split (1894-1922), > with > most of the congregations here following Bishop Dubbs and adhering to the > United Evangelical Church. This resulted in a near-doubling of > congregations, > as they lost title to the buildings, The court cases on this make really interesting reading!! I assume these cases were as frequent and ugly in Centre Co. as in Lancaster County. Justin, do I have it right: the ecclesial body that became known as the Evangelical Association was the legal inheritor to the former Albright group, and that the United Evangelical Church had to build anew? > After the reunification in 1922, most of the congregations ended up in the > Dubbs buildings, often across the street from the old buildings, some of > which > are in use as houses today. Most of the two parts of the separated denomination went back together, but the East Penna. Conference of one of these - I forget which!! -- would not agree to the merger and formed the Evangelical Congregational Church, which remains a separate ecclesial entity to this day, with particular strength around Allentown but with her theological seminary (since 1952) in the same buildings in Myerstown that once held a predecessor to Albright college. (!!!) Justin, are there any E.C. congregations in Centre Co." I would doubt it. > I do not know whether Millheim had a union church. Yes, and during the 1950's or early 1960's, The Rev. Theodore Schneider over-saw a process of merging a number of small Lutheran congregations into one, the current St. John Lutheran in Millheim. One or two of those former congregations shared buildings with Reformed congregations, but I cannot document which ones. Schneider went to Lancaster in 1964, then to Silver Spring MD in 1986 or 1987, and is now bishop of Metropolitan Washington, D.C. Synod of the ELCA. Some readers of this list likely knew him in his Centre Co. days. For years his organist at St. Johns, Millheim, was Dr. Helen Wise, former of the Penn State faculty and sometime national president of National Education Association. >> What writing exists regarding the relationship of the Scotts-Irish >> (thus, often Presbyterians, as at Center Hill, not far north of Potters >> Mill >> at the corner where the road goes to Tusseyville) and the Germans. There >> would have been at least a bit closer theological concordance, if not >> cultural bearing, between the German Reformed and the Presbyterians, both >> being of the overall "reformed" background, but it is important how the >> cultural similarities brought Lutherans and German Reformed together in >> "union churches" despite sharp differences in certain areas of >> theological >> disputation. > > Yes, the early English-speaking recorders often > called the German Reformed people "Calvinist > Presbyterian" or some such terminology in their > records. Or sometimes German Calvinists, which was a misnomer, given their Zwinglian, not Calvinist, background and with the Heidelberg Catechism (Zwinglian) instead of the Westminster Confession (Presbyterian). > I've not done a lot of research in the area of cultural interaction -- > that > would be very interesting. Is there any writing on this topic? Is this perhaps somebody's Ph.D. dissertation topic some day? Again, I'm sure I write in behalf of man in gratitude to Justin for this list and the opportunity to learn from each other here. Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

> WOW! this is over my head. think I'll take a couple days off after reading > this! Actually it is interesting but speaking for myself, I need to digest it > a bit! I am curious, though, Karl, John Casper appears in your email. I have > many,many John Casper Ros(s) in my group. Is your group from the the > Netherlands. If you don't mind where did the "John Casper" originate? Was > Casper more of a Christian name used ah...more of a title then moved around > when they arrived in America? I ask because not only do my ancestors have John > Casper all the generations thru but the first emigrant "Casper" Ros(s) was > simply listed as Casper. I wonder if he would have had a middle or first > name? Thank you! Mark Ross Permit a question -- and please, NOT a negative criticism, either!! -- about the above. Every so often I get a message that looks like the above with those little upright rectangular "boxes" separating sentences. I've wondered if they represent the use of the space bar, and I've wondered who they appear in my screen. Does anyone know if they come from a particular sort of computer or text program or e-mail program? Mark, do you write directly into an e-mail program? Now to the substance of your questions: Apparently many Germans had the practice of giving a child several names, the first of which was of some saint -- perhaps also of some other highly-esteemed person?? -- but really used the second name as the actual name. Thus, for example, my great-grandfather John Henry Moyer (d. 1872) signed his will as "Henry Moyer," and the sale bill regarding some of his personal property, etc., listed him likewise, even though his grave marker is John Henry Moyer. However, his son John Henry Moyer, (d. 1928) began to be known as "John," and one might guess that among the Lebanon Co. Pa. Dutch this practice changed at about the turn of the century. I would be grateful to anyone who can comment about this from a position of good authority on the subject. One might guess, therefore, that John Casper Stöver actually went by "Casper," though we today may suffer the "problem" of looking at formal documents that include his name, see his full "Christian name" with that saint's name first, and conclude, out of our own cultural assumptions, that HE also called himself "John Casper Stöver" or even just "John." <Casper> was a common German name, of course, and you might raise the same sort of issue with a name <John Casper Roß>, though you should not conclude firmly that he went by <Casper> simply from my comments here. Related to all this: Justin: when branches of my Meyer family moved to Centre Co, they maintained the Meyer name, and it remains there to this day, as with Meyer's Dairy and Don Meyer's motel the Autoport, both on East Atherton Street. Yet, in Lebanon Co., the name went to "Moyer," which was a Pa. Dutch mis-pronunciation of "Meyer" and which began to take on the spelling people were hearing. This is so blatant as to find my great-great-grandfather, who moved to Brush Valley in retired years, buried at Rebersburg under the name Michael MOYER but two years later a grandson of a Centre Co. so buried as William Franklin MEYER: grandfather and grandson buried next to each other with different surname spellings!! And since Michael's widow moved to a son west of Boalsburg and died 30 years later, her son buried her at Boasburg as Elizabeth MEYER!! Husband and wife buried under different surnames and in different locations. So, is there other evidence that Pa. Dutch folks who came to Centre Co. maintained older cultural ways, perhaps including therefore this question of one <John Casper Roß> really being known as <Casper>? Can anyone address these question with better authority than I? Cordially, Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA

> His name was Casper Ross. He emigrated from Holland to Pa in 1802 and settled > in Centre County. I understand now he really wouldn't be considered > "Pennsylvania Dutch" however his father was from Germany, Straaslund, mother > from Amsterdam. Casper was baptised in an Evangelical-Lutheran church in > Amsterdam. Strasslund lies almost due north of Berlin, very near the sea and the present border of German with Poland and thus in the area once called Prussia. I am not aware that persons known as "Pa. Dutch" or "Pa Germans" came from that area of present-day Germany, but my hunch is that person would not be identified with the Pa. Dutch and did not know the dialect. Any help on this from anyone? His baptism in a Lutheran church in Amsterdam is interesting, given that Lutheranism was a very small and carefully-controlled minority in Holland. Lutheran church buildings often were required to be sited back from the street and NOT to look like church buildings -- thus, no towers, etc. What's more, baptism among Lutherans was sometimes freely given, as with the Lutheran pastors in Lancaster PA even baptizing children of Mennonites. (!!!) That does not necessarily mean that this man was a Lutheran by training and/or persuasion. The name Ross -- or perhaps Roß -- is a German form. <Roß> means a horse, or poetically also a "steed." Thus, "sich aufs hohe Roß" means to get on one's high horse. But in slang the word also can mean "blockhead," and in vulgar slang it can be combined with " -apfel" to imply in vulgar terms what comes out the back end of the horse. "Der Apfel" means "apple," and you can take it from there, I'm sure!! :-) Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancasterr PA Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA

I have really enjoyed all the discussions on your list from potato candy, to the current Pennsylvania Dutch. Was wondering if anyone has any information on Daniel Miles O'Nail/O'Neil and Nancy Kelly, who were married in Centre County 6/15/1815. They later moved to Venango Co. with their three oldest children where they settled and raised their family, including add'l children. Also, did Daniel have a sister Mary, that possibly migrated with he and his family to Venango County. My roots are in Venango County mostly, and cover many different families. Any information that may connect, please email me. I have various spellings of the O'Neil name if my files. Would be happy to share. Thanks so much! Janet O'Neil Ruel

WOW! this is over my head. think I'll take a couple days off after reading this! Actually it is interesting but speaking for myself, I need to digest it a bit! I am curious, though, Karl, John Casper appears in your email. I have many,many John Casper Ros(s) in my group. Is your group from the the Netherlands. If you don't mind where did the "John Casper" originate? Was Casper more of a Christian name used ah...more of a title then moved around when they arrived in America? I ask because not only do my ancestors have John Casper all the generations thru but the first emigrant "Casper" Ros(s) was simply listed as Casper. I wonder if he would have had a middle or first name? Thank you! Mark Ross -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch I think -- hope -- this discussion is of sufficient interest and potential enlightenment to many who read Centre Co. - L to once again reply to the list. Please forgive me anyone thinks I'm taking this too far. >> These are separate groups: >> Lutherans (all based on what some of us call the "Muhlenberg" tradition, >> recognizing that Muhlenberg was NOT the earliest of these immigrants), who >> taught principally from Luther's Large (for pastors) and Small (for family >> use) Cathecisms, the Augsburg Confession, etc. > > I'd be interested to know more about the "Muhlenberg" tradition. Is this a > primary distinction from, say, the Zinzendorf tradition or the John Casper > Stoever tradition? (I know those two were often at loggerheads, as was > Pastor Stoever generally, it appears!) This phrase "Muhlenberg-tradition" Lutheran churches is only a sort of homespun phrase for some of us. It refers to 17th and 18th-century Lutherans who arrived in the Colonies and gradually spread westward. This group at long last established a theological seminary at Gettysburg in 1826, but that was perhaps 100 years after these folks were already quite numerous in certain places. John Casper Stöver, Jr., founded many such congregations in Pennsylvania. His father was pastor of Hebron Lutheran out in the country near Madison VA, a congregation older than almost ANY Lutheran congregation in PA. The two were ordained by a Rev. Schultz, who came from the Fatherland for that purpose and who then went back home to the Fatherland. "Junior" Stöver was on occasion a problematic figure, perhaps typical of frontier American attitudes that a well-schooled Churchman like Muhlenberg did not find amusing. Muhlenberg brought some degree of order out of relative chaos among Lutherans in the colonies. Perhaps the Paul A. W. Wallace book on Muhlenberg is still one of the more reputable records of Muhlenberg's work, and his is accorded the title "Patriarch of Lutherans in America" or such like. This Lutheran group is to be kept separate from two other primary European Lutheran immigrations in to America in the 19th century: 1. the Saxons and Prussians who were greatly offended by the Kaiser's 1817 (1818?) edict that Lutheran and Reformed were to united into one national "Evangelische Kirche." That was more than stern orthodox Lutherans could stand, and eventually five ships of them came to America. One went down in the ocean, but the others found their way to New Orleans, and these folks made their way up the Mississippi River to the area now called Missouri and became some of the basis of today's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. The other 19th-century Lutheran immigration consisted various Scandinavian Lutheran groups -- Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Finns -- some relatively orthodox but many relatively pietistic. Many settled in cold northern areas of USA, esp. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, North and South Dakota, etc. Many of these joined with descendants of the "Muhlenberg tradition" Lutherans to form the current ELCA (Evan. Luth Ch. in America), whereas the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod remains separate and, faithful to one of the issues that drove them from the Vaterland, very opposed to "unionist" faith and order issues. Passing added comment: the 19th century Saxon and Prussian immigration had certain relationships to the failed 1848 democracy attempt --O.K., Justin, HOW do we label this one? !! -- in (now) Germany, and German Reformed folks ALSO came to New Orleans and up the river to the Missouri, founding what became known as the Evangelical synod of North America. "Evangelical" here does NOT mean Albrighters or other uses of that word; it means German-background "protestant," though now-a-days the word often implies "Lutheran" in Germany. (This terminology is really mixed up!!) This was the group who established Eden Theological Seminary and a printing press in St. Louis, and Elmhurst College near Chicago, among others. This latter group was the "Evangelical" part of the merger with the former German Reformed denomination that became the "Evangelical and Reformed" denomination which many of us can remember. I assume that all of the former E&R churches in Centre Co came from the German Reformed and NOT from the Evangelical Synod of North America. The various permutations of this group all taught from the Heidelberg Catechism, and many congregations descended from them still do. They operated Franklin & Marshall College (men) (Lancaster), Heidelberg College (Tiffin OH), Hood College (women), Frederick MD, Cedar Crest College (also women), Allentown, in PA or vicinity, plus others elsewhere. Most are now co-ed. Their theological seminary has been in Lancaster since 1899, across college Avenue from Franklin & Marshall College. > The Evangelical Association "Albrights" had a strong foothold in the German > valleys -- Penns Valley and Brush Valley in particular.. My family genealogist Henry Meyer, whose 1890 work I hope in part to update some day in print, made the big jump from German Reformed to Evangelical. He and his family are buried at the (now) United Methodist church cemetery in Rebersburg, which I'll assume was an Evangelical church. Yes, Justin? The earlier of that family --and some later generations also -- were buried in the Lutheran and Reformed Cemetery in Rebersburg instead, given their Reformed background. > Centre County was heavily impacted by the Esher-Dubbs split (1894-1922), with > most of the congregations here following Bishop Dubbs and adhering to the > United Evangelical Church. This resulted in a near-doubling of congregations, > as they lost title to the buildings, The court cases on this make really interesting reading!! I assume these cases were as frequent and ugly in Centre Co. as in Lancaster County. Justin, do I have it right: the ecclesial body that became known as the Evangelical Association was the legal inheritor to the former Albright group, and that the United Evangelical Church had to build anew? > After the reunification in 1922, most of the congregations ended up in the > Dubbs buildings, often across the street from the old buildings, some of which > are in use as houses today. Most of the two parts of the separated denomination went back together, but the East Penna. Conference of one of these - I forget which!! -- would not agree to the merger and formed the Evangelical Congregational Church, which remains a separate ecclesial entity to this day, with particular strength around Allentown but with her theological seminary (since 1952) in the same buildings in Myerstown that once held a predecessor to Albright college. (!!!) Justin, are there any E.C. congregations in Centre Co." I would doubt it. > I do not know whether Millheim had a union church. Yes, and during the 1950's or early 1960's, The Rev. Theodore Schneider over-saw a process of merging a number of small Lutheran congregations into one, the current St. John Lutheran in Millheim. One or two of those former congregations shared buildings with Reformed congregations, but I cannot document which ones. Schneider went to Lancaster in 1964, then to Silver Spring MD in 1986 or 1987, and is now bishop of Metropolitan Washington, D.C. Synod of the ELCA. Some readers of this list likely knew him in his Centre Co. days. For years his organist at St. Johns, Millheim, was Dr. Helen Wise, former of the Penn State faculty and sometime national president of National Education Association. >> What writing exists regarding the relationship of the Scotts-Irish >> (thus, often Presbyterians, as at Center Hill, not far north of Potters Mill >> at the corner where the road goes to Tusseyville) and the Germans. There >> would have been at least a bit closer theological concordance, if not >> cultural bearing, between the German Reformed and the Presbyterians, both >> being of the overall "reformed" background, but it is important how the >> cultural similarities brought Lutherans and German Reformed together in >> "union churches" despite sharp differences in certain areas of theological >> disputation. > > Yes, the early English-speaking recorders often > called the German Reformed people "Calvinist > Presbyterian" or some such terminology in their > records. Or sometimes German Calvinists, which was a misnomer, given their Zwinglian, not Calvinist, background and with the Heidelberg Catechism (Zwinglian) instead of the Westminster Confession (Presbyterian). > I've not done a lot of research in the area of cultural interaction -- that > would be very interesting. Is there any writing on this topic? Is this perhaps somebody's Ph.D. dissertation topic some day? Again, I'm sure I write in behalf of man in gratitude to Justin for this list and the opportunity to learn from each other here. Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Jeff, I read thru your response. I wonder if you would care to comment on one of my early relatives. His name was Casper Ross. He emigrated from Holland to Pa in 1802 and settled in Centre County. I understand now he really wouldn't be considered "Pennsylvania Dutch" however his father was from Germany, Straaslund, mother from Amsterdam. Casper was baptised in an Evangelical-Lutheran church in Amsterdam. I don't know what that makes him, but from the explanation would you espect a person like Casper, to comfortably settle in Centre county? Thank you, Mark in Kansa -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 4:52 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch Karl, Thanks for your extensive commentary. See my notes below: At 12:33 PM 1/8/2007, Karl Moyer wrote: > With great gratitude always to Justin for his good and helpful work in >our behalf, let me try to just a teeny bit clarity what he wrote here: > > > Centre County's settlement can be understood, briefly, in this way: > > > > 1700s - initial influx of Scots-Irish > (Presbyterian) settlers in the valleys > > 1790s-1840s - "Pennsylvania Dutch" (Lutheran and Reformed, > > Evangelical/United Brethren, a few Mennonite) move into the valleys > > from the southeastern counties; > >These are separate groups: >Lutherans (all based on what some of us call the "Muhlenberg" tradition, >recognizing that Muhlenberg was NOT the earliest of these immigrants), who >taught principally from Luther's Large (for pastors) and Small (for family >use) Cathecisms, the Augsburg Confession, etc. I'd be interested to know more about the "Muhlenberg" tradition. Is this a primary distinction from, say, the Zinzendorf tradition or the John Casper Stoever tradition? (I know those two were often at loggerheads, as was Pastor Stoever generally, it appears!) >German Reformed: followers of Ulrich Zwingi from the Palatinate (die Pfalz, >now part of the state of Rheinland-Pfalz) and who taughty principally from >the Heidelberg Catechism > >Evangelical Church: followers of Jakob Albrecht (Jacob Albright), for whom >Albright College in Reading PA is named. His followers were esp. numerous >NW in (present-day) Union, Snyder, and Centre Counties -- others also? -- >but also in (present-day) Lancaster, Lebanon, Berks, Northampton, Lehigh >Counties -- perhaps a few others also? -- and the Evangelical Home and >hospital just north of Lewisburg reflects this history. The Evangelical Association "Albrights" had a strong foothold in the German valleys -- Penns Valley and Brush Valley in particular. The Woodward congregation traces its origins back to 1806, and I believe Rev. Albright made personal visitations here. Humorous anecdotes on the activities of some of the Gramlys and Spanglers following their conversion regarding the use of whisky for farm hands at harvest time (they disallowed it) and the outcry of their Lutheran-Reformed neighbors is found in the Miles Township section of Linn's History, and is entertaining reading. The Fourth General Conference of the Evangelical Association was held at the Paradise Church in Penn Twp. in 1839, with Bishop Johannes Seybert, I believe, presiding. Trinity Evangelical Church in Bellefonte was not founded until 1889. This was my grandmother Houser's home church before she married my grandfather. Centre County was heavily impacted by the Esher-Dubbs split (1894-1922), with most of the congregations here following Bishop Dubbs and adhering to the United Evangelical Church. This resulted in a near-doubling of congregations, as they lost title to the buildings, and a few Esherites tenaciously hung on, but most succumbed. The Historical Society of the Central Pennsylvania Conference of the United Methodist Church documented many of these congregations in its annual publication some years back. One of the notable "Esher" congregations included the Egg Hill Church in Potter Twp., under the legacy of "Father David Hennigh" (1809-1891), which closed in 1927. After the reunification in 1922, most of the congregations ended up in the Dubbs buildings, often across the street from the old buildings, some of which are in use as houses today. >United Brethren Church -- more properly, the United Brethren in Christ >Church: followers of the famous meeting of German Reformed pastor Philipp >Otterbein and Mennonite preacher Martin Böhm (or if you wish, Boehm), at the >barn on the farm of one Mr. Long in Manheim Township, just north of >Lancaster. This meeting gradually led to the founding of this denomination >ca 1800 at Frederick, MD, with the name comign from the words of Otterbein >at Long's barn, "Wir sind Brüder" -- "We are brothers." Otterbein was a >pastor at York PA at the time of the Long's Barn meeting, but he became >pastor of the German Reformed congregation in Baltimore which still exists >in the "Inner Harbor area and just a bit east of Oriole Field at Camden >Yards; the church now bears the name Otterbein United Methodist Church, for >it went along into the newly-formed United Brethren in Christ denomination >soon after 1800, one of the ancestors of the present-day United Methodist >Church. NB.: this group is not to be confused with an Anabaptist group >established in Pennsylvania and known to this day as the Brethren in Christ >Church, which, for example, operates Messiah College at Grantham, not many >miles south of Harrisburg. > > The "Albrighters" became numerous northwest of Harrisburg. I am not >aware if the Untied Brethren did and would be grateful to be updated on that >question. Justin, this is, indeed, YOUR church heritage. Would you be >willing to take all of us a step yet further in detail? The Church of the United Brethren in Christ also had a strong foothold in parts of Centre County. They did not take off in Penns Valley, although there was a church at Millheim connected with the celebrated Rev. Adam Noon, and also a congregation at Rebersburg for a short time. My 4th great grandfather, Rev. Martin Houser, was a circuit-rider for the UB Church, and was active in congregations at Houserville, Bellefonte, and other places. (The Bellefonte congregation is one of the ancestors of Faith UMC in Bellefonte, one of the largest churches in the area.) There were also UB churches at Valley View (my church), Stormstown, Paradise (Patton Twp.), and a string of them in the upper Bald Eagle Valley (Hannah, Martha, Mount Pleasant, etc.) and the efforts of Rev. Homer Gauntt in the 1930s created Woodycrest and Buffalo Run United Brethren Churches. There were probably several others I'm not thinking of at the moment. > Interesting, too: the German Lutherans and the German Reformed often >shared the same church building, and the old joke used to be that sometimes >their services of worship were so similar that you couldn't tell which >denomination's pastor was holding forth until they prayed the Lord's Prayer, >where the Lutherans began "Vater unser in Himmelreich" and the Reformed >"Unser Vater in Himmelreich." Such "union churches" remain, including one >of my family background in Freeburg, Snyder Co. I assume that the Lutherans >and Reformed once shared the same buildings in Rebersburg in Brush Valley, >Centre Co, another of my family ancestry sites, and at Centre Hall. >Aaronsburg, Millheim, and Tusseyville also? There are two union churches left in Centre County -- Emmanuel Union Church at Tusseyville, and St. John's Union Church at Farmers Mills, Gregg Twp. Rebersburg was union until 1876; Boalsburg was union until the 1850s or 1860s (you would know that date, Karl). Penns Creek Church in Gregg Twp. was union until 1859, giving birth to Penns Creek Lutheran (now defunct) and Salem UCC (now) in Penn Twp. Centre Hall church was union for some period of time. Aaronsburg was never union; the Salem Lutheran and St. Peter's Reformed congregations had separate buildings and graveyards from the 1790s forward. I do not know whether Millheim had a union church. Holy Cross Lutheran in Gregg Twp. was union from ca. 1848 to ca. 1871, when the Reformed side disintegrated. The church at Pine Hall, Ferguson Twp., may have been union for some length of time. Pine Grove Mills also had a union church, with the Lutheran side surviving to this day in a new building. Maybe more. > The two definitely shared the same building in Boalsburg until the >Reformed congregation erected her own building just south of the Lutheran >building. One of my family folks, Henry Meyer, buried right next to the >west wall of the present-day Lutheran building, was a leader in the Reformed >congregation in he days when the Reformed worshiped in the "union church" >on where the current Lutheran building now stands. Indeed, it would be >interesting to see a list of "union churches" (Lutheran and Reformed and >with perhaps other denominational bodies joining them) in Centre Co. >Perhaps such a list already exists; yes? > > What writing exists regarding the relationship of the Scotts-Irish >(thus, often Presbyterians, as at Center Hill, not far north of Potters Mill >at the corner where the road goes to Tusseyville) and the Germans. There >would have been at least a bit closer theological concordance, if not >cultural bearing, between the German Reformed and the Presbyterians, both >being of the overall "reformed" background, but it is important how the >cultural similarities brought Lutherans and German Reformed together in >"union churches" despite sharp differences in certain areas of theological >disputation. Yes, the early English-speaking recorders often called the German Reformed people "Calvinist Presbyterian" or some such terminology in their records. You and I discussed this, concerning the church at Reamstown, a few years back on the Lancaster Co. list, as I recall. I've not done a lot of research in the area of cultural interaction -- that would be very interesting. > Mit besten Grüßen > > Karl E. Moyer > Lancaster PA > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >email to [email protected] with the >word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

I think -- hope -- this discussion is of sufficient interest and potential enlightenment to many who read Centre Co. - L to once again reply to the list. Please forgive me anyone thinks I'm taking this too far. >> These are separate groups: >> Lutherans (all based on what some of us call the "Muhlenberg" tradition, >> recognizing that Muhlenberg was NOT the earliest of these immigrants), who >> taught principally from Luther's Large (for pastors) and Small (for family >> use) Cathecisms, the Augsburg Confession, etc. > > I'd be interested to know more about the "Muhlenberg" tradition. Is this a > primary distinction from, say, the Zinzendorf tradition or the John Casper > Stoever tradition? (I know those two were often at loggerheads, as was > Pastor Stoever generally, it appears!) This phrase "Muhlenberg-tradition" Lutheran churches is only a sort of homespun phrase for some of us. It refers to 17th and 18th-century Lutherans who arrived in the Colonies and gradually spread westward. This group at long last established a theological seminary at Gettysburg in 1826, but that was perhaps 100 years after these folks were already quite numerous in certain places. John Casper Stöver, Jr., founded many such congregations in Pennsylvania. His father was pastor of Hebron Lutheran out in the country near Madison VA, a congregation older than almost ANY Lutheran congregation in PA. The two were ordained by a Rev. Schultz, who came from the Fatherland for that purpose and who then went back home to the Fatherland. "Junior" Stöver was on occasion a problematic figure, perhaps typical of frontier American attitudes that a well-schooled Churchman like Muhlenberg did not find amusing. Muhlenberg brought some degree of order out of relative chaos among Lutherans in the colonies. Perhaps the Paul A. W. Wallace book on Muhlenberg is still one of the more reputable records of Muhlenberg's work, and his is accorded the title "Patriarch of Lutherans in America" or such like. This Lutheran group is to be kept separate from two other primary European Lutheran immigrations in to America in the 19th century: 1. the Saxons and Prussians who were greatly offended by the Kaiser's 1817 (1818?) edict that Lutheran and Reformed were to united into one national "Evangelische Kirche." That was more than stern orthodox Lutherans could stand, and eventually five ships of them came to America. One went down in the ocean, but the others found their way to New Orleans, and these folks made their way up the Mississippi River to the area now called Missouri and became some of the basis of today's Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod. The other 19th-century Lutheran immigration consisted various Scandinavian Lutheran groups -- Norwegians, Swedes, Danes, Finns -- some relatively orthodox but many relatively pietistic. Many settled in cold northern areas of USA, esp. Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, North and South Dakota, etc. Many of these joined with descendants of the "Muhlenberg tradition" Lutherans to form the current ELCA (Evan. Luth Ch. in America), whereas the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod remains separate and, faithful to one of the issues that drove them from the Vaterland, very opposed to "unionist" faith and order issues. Passing added comment: the 19th century Saxon and Prussian immigration had certain relationships to the failed 1848 democracy attempt --O.K., Justin, HOW do we label this one? !! -- in (now) Germany, and German Reformed folks ALSO came to New Orleans and up the river to the Missouri, founding what became known as the Evangelical synod of North America. "Evangelical" here does NOT mean Albrighters or other uses of that word; it means German-background "protestant," though now-a-days the word often implies "Lutheran" in Germany. (This terminology is really mixed up!!) This was the group who established Eden Theological Seminary and a printing press in St. Louis, and Elmhurst College near Chicago, among others. This latter group was the "Evangelical" part of the merger with the former German Reformed denomination that became the "Evangelical and Reformed" denomination which many of us can remember. I assume that all of the former E&R churches in Centre Co came from the German Reformed and NOT from the Evangelical Synod of North America. The various permutations of this group all taught from the Heidelberg Catechism, and many congregations descended from them still do. They operated Franklin & Marshall College (men) (Lancaster), Heidelberg College (Tiffin OH), Hood College (women), Frederick MD, Cedar Crest College (also women), Allentown, in PA or vicinity, plus others elsewhere. Most are now co-ed. Their theological seminary has been in Lancaster since 1899, across college Avenue from Franklin & Marshall College. > The Evangelical Association "Albrights" had a strong foothold in the German > valleys -- Penns Valley and Brush Valley in particular.. My family genealogist Henry Meyer, whose 1890 work I hope in part to update some day in print, made the big jump from German Reformed to Evangelical. He and his family are buried at the (now) United Methodist church cemetery in Rebersburg, which I'll assume was an Evangelical church. Yes, Justin? The earlier of that family --and some later generations also -- were buried in the Lutheran and Reformed Cemetery in Rebersburg instead, given their Reformed background. > Centre County was heavily impacted by the Esher-Dubbs split (1894-1922), with > most of the congregations here following Bishop Dubbs and adhering to the > United Evangelical Church. This resulted in a near-doubling of congregations, > as they lost title to the buildings, The court cases on this make really interesting reading!! I assume these cases were as frequent and ugly in Centre Co. as in Lancaster County. Justin, do I have it right: the ecclesial body that became known as the Evangelical Association was the legal inheritor to the former Albright group, and that the United Evangelical Church had to build anew? > After the reunification in 1922, most of the congregations ended up in the > Dubbs buildings, often across the street from the old buildings, some of which > are in use as houses today. Most of the two parts of the separated denomination went back together, but the East Penna. Conference of one of these - I forget which!! -- would not agree to the merger and formed the Evangelical Congregational Church, which remains a separate ecclesial entity to this day, with particular strength around Allentown but with her theological seminary (since 1952) in the same buildings in Myerstown that once held a predecessor to Albright college. (!!!) Justin, are there any E.C. congregations in Centre Co." I would doubt it. > I do not know whether Millheim had a union church. Yes, and during the 1950's or early 1960's, The Rev. Theodore Schneider over-saw a process of merging a number of small Lutheran congregations into one, the current St. John Lutheran in Millheim. One or two of those former congregations shared buildings with Reformed congregations, but I cannot document which ones. Schneider went to Lancaster in 1964, then to Silver Spring MD in 1986 or 1987, and is now bishop of Metropolitan Washington, D.C. Synod of the ELCA. Some readers of this list likely knew him in his Centre Co. days. For years his organist at St. Johns, Millheim, was Dr. Helen Wise, former of the Penn State faculty and sometime national president of National Education Association. >> What writing exists regarding the relationship of the Scotts-Irish >> (thus, often Presbyterians, as at Center Hill, not far north of Potters Mill >> at the corner where the road goes to Tusseyville) and the Germans. There >> would have been at least a bit closer theological concordance, if not >> cultural bearing, between the German Reformed and the Presbyterians, both >> being of the overall "reformed" background, but it is important how the >> cultural similarities brought Lutherans and German Reformed together in >> "union churches" despite sharp differences in certain areas of theological >> disputation. > > Yes, the early English-speaking recorders often > called the German Reformed people "Calvinist > Presbyterian" or some such terminology in their > records. Or sometimes German Calvinists, which was a misnomer, given their Zwinglian, not Calvinist, background and with the Heidelberg Catechism (Zwinglian) instead of the Westminster Confession (Presbyterian). > I've not done a lot of research in the area of cultural interaction -- that > would be very interesting. Is there any writing on this topic? Is this perhaps somebody's Ph.D. dissertation topic some day? Again, I'm sure I write in behalf of man in gratitude to Justin for this list and the opportunity to learn from each other here. Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA

Hi all, Several people have explained to me, Pennsylvania Dutch, more of Germanic group and others not so much immigrants from the Netherlands. Since mine came from Netherlands and settled in Centre, would there have been a Dutch population at that time? Thank you, Mark -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 7:53 AM Subject: [PACENTRE] Pennsylvania Dutch counties My opinion is that it is somewhat risky to name certain counties as being "Pennsylvania Dutch" -- that is, risking slighting people of "Pennsylvania Dutch" heritage who were in counties other than those cited. I suspect the Pennsylvania Deutsch (German/Swiss/Huguenot) have an influence in just about every county of the state and also those counties in Maryland which border on the Mason-Dixon line. My Houtz, Garbrick, Shuey, Ziegler, Shower(s)/Schauer, Etters, Loesch, Holderman, Shearer/Scherer, and Waltenberger lines were all of "Pennsylvania Dutch" ancestry, settling in Centre County. Many of them spoke German as indicated by some of the census records. This would have been "German" of the Pennsylvania Deutsch dialect, of course. It is my guess that the Pennsylvania Dutch have left their imprint just about everywhere in the state -- although, admittedly, there are some counties that are more Pennsylvania Dutch than others. Fred Houts in MN ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

...Thanks Justin, that explained alot! My folks were from Amsterdam and came over in 1802. I had heard the term "Pennsylvania Dutch" I assumed they were part of that group. From your definition...maybe not. Thanks for the explanation Mark in Kansas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch Ah, the Pennsylvania Dutch were not Hollanders or Low Dutch. The Pennsylvania Dutch were Deutsch, that is, German-speakers, chiefly from the Pfalz/Palatinate, the Alsace region of what is now France, and the German-speaking Cantons of Switzerland, such as Bern and Zürich. Those persons who were Dutch from what is now called the Netherlands are a different group of people, although linguistically related, not being considered part of the Pennsylvania Dutch people. Justin At 10:33 PM 1/7/2007, you wrote: >Hi Marlene, >thanks for the response. I had some early >pioneers settle into Centre county. There >cit/nat papers were telling of him from Holland. >I was just getting a feel how settled the area >was by the Dutch. So far, not much! > >Thanks for replying, >Mark in Kansas > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Sent: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 8:48 PM >Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch > > >Hi Mark, > >Pennsylvania Dutch refers more to a people. I live in Upper Bucks County in >Pa, and this area along with Berks, Northampton, Leigh counties have a large >settlement of Pa Duth....they were german speaking people who settled this >area. > >Marlene > >Let music fill your spirit! >Start out by supporting Chamber Arts Guild Chorus >www.chamberartsguild.org > >And for the child in you also > >Check out Mike Ford's latest musical adventure, "Dog Train". >www.boyntonfordmusic.com/products.htm > >"We must be the change we wish to see in the world" Mahatma Gandhi > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <[email protected]> >To: <[email protected]> >Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 8:58 PM >Subject: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch > > > > Hi all, > > I read an email earlier talking about a couple of counties in Pennsylvania > > as Pennsylvania Dutch. I am familiar with the term but don't know exactly > > what counties they would have been. > > Can anybody tell me? > > > > Thank you, > > Mark in Kansas > > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security > > tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, > > free AOL Mail and more. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >email to [email protected] >with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of >the message >________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set >of free safety and security tools, free access >to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >email to [email protected] with the >word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the >subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Yes, Justin, you are right......my mistake about Lancaster County! Sue G. > Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 17:53:03 -0500> To: [email protected]> From: [email protected]> Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] Pennsylvania Dutch counties/Lancaster Co.> > The three original counties in Pennsylvania were Bucks, Chester, and > Philadelphia Counties (1682). Lancaster County, the fourth county, > was created from Chester in 1729.> > At 04:33 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote:> >Lancaster County was one of the first three counties of PA. When it > >originated it was also a county with many Scots-Irish. So, it's > >important to keep in mind the time period in which one is > >searching. Back in the 1700's I think it might have been also > >considered a Scots-Irish county, or at least parts of it were. This > >was a surprise to me when I first started looking into my > >ancestors. I had always thought of Lancaster County as the > >"heartland" of the "Pennsylvania Dutch." That may be true now, but > >was maybe not always the case.> >Sue G.> > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Get into the holiday spirit, chat with Santa on Messenger. http://imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/santabot/default.aspx?locale=en-us

Just to add a bit to the topic above. I descend from Roger Kirk of Yorkshire who became Quaker and seemed to have joined the encouraged by England migration to the six counties of Northern Ireland. Most of the Scot-Irish appeared to have been the blunt of this migration. The History of Cecil County Maryland details the tension between the Quakers and the other Protestant religions as the Quakers did not believe in war or war taxes and taught more universal literacy than was in vogue in the 1600 and 1700s. Until Mason and Dixon surveyed the Mason Dixon line, the Quakers living on the boundary of PA, DE, and MD called it PA. Others called it for their colonies. The Mennonite Germans were also a religious group that did not believe in war and the book Pennsylvania Colony and Commonwealth which is being uploaded on a website now gives the Quaker version of this conflict as the Cecil County, MD, history gives the other religion's sides. The Revolutionary War created crisis of belief and action for the Quakers. I have two Quakers who are credited with fighting in the Revolutionary War in spite of their faith and both moved into Centre County; later their families traveled onto Clearfield County. The Kirk Family History written by George Calvin Kirk includes reminisces handed down about a skirmish his great grand father Thomas Kirk b. June 04/1744 was in side by side with his neighbors and the internal conflicts they had even firing a rifle. By the way I now live in Wayne County, OH and combined with adjoining Holmes County we have the largest Amish population in the world. We also have a population of Mennonites just about as great. Jean

Hi All: I hope you and yours have a good new year. Ferne [email protected] I am still looking for my John BEIGHTOL b.abt 1825. (BECHTOL, BECKTAL, and all the various spellings). I am also looking for the Ellis Elias T BROWN family.