Good Day Justin and other readers - Is a good article in print describing this practice of naming? Joseph

It was common in this area among the Pennsylvania German to give their children two or even three names and that the first one would never be used, as was the case with other families. This custom tended to die out by about 1850 in most cases. Justin At 10:13 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: > So, is there other evidence that Pa. Dutch folks who came to Centre Co. >maintained older cultural ways, perhaps including therefore this question of >one <John Casper Roß> really being known as <Casper>?

This is also very interesting indeed. One of the Lutheran congregations that probably was a part of this merger was the Coburn church. Justin At 09:23 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: > Yes, and during the 1950's or early 1960's, The Rev. Theodore Schneider >over-saw a process of merging a number of small Lutheran congregations into >one, the current St. John Lutheran in Millheim. One or two of those former >congregations shared buildings with Reformed congregations, but I cannot >document which ones. Schneider went to Lancaster in 1964, then to Silver >Spring MD in 1986 or 1987, and is now bishop of Metropolitan Washington, >D.C. Synod of the ELCA. Some readers of this list likely knew him in his >Centre Co. days. For years his organist at St. Johns, Millheim, was Dr. >Helen Wise, former of the Penn State faculty and sometime national president >of National Education Association.

I know of no EC Churches in Centre County, but have seen them in the eastern part of PA. At 09:23 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: > Most of the two parts of the separated denomination went back together, >but the East Penna. Conference of one of these - I forget which!! -- would >not agree to the merger and formed the Evangelical Congregational Church, >which remains a separate ecclesial entity to this day, with particular >strength around Allentown but with her theological seminary (since 1952) in >the same buildings in Myerstown that once held a predecessor to Albright >college. (!!!) Justin, are there any E.C. congregations in Centre Co." I >would doubt it.

This is correct. At 09:23 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: > The court cases on this make really interesting reading!! I assume these >cases were as frequent and ugly in Centre Co. as in Lancaster County. >Justin, do I have it right: the ecclesial body that became known as the >Evangelical Association was the legal inheritor to the former Albright >group, and that the United Evangelical Church had to build anew?

Yes, this congregation (Emmanuel UMC in Rebersburg) was an Evangelical congregation, and dates to about 1834. At 09:23 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: > My family genealogist Henry Meyer, whose 1890 work I hope in part to >update some day in print, made the big jump from German Reformed to >Evangelical. He and his family are buried at the (now) United Methodist >church cemetery in Rebersburg, which I'll assume was an Evangelical church. >Yes, Justin? The earlier of that family --and some later generations also >-- were buried in the Lutheran and Reformed Cemetery in Rebersburg instead, >given their Reformed background.

Yes, I am familiar with this group, the Evangelical Synod, which was one of the background components of the E & R Church. You're right, the terminology is quite confusing!! At 09:23 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >Passing added comment: the 19th century Saxon and Prussian immigration >had certain relationships to the failed 1848 democracy attempt --O.K., >Justin, HOW do we label this one? !! -- in (now) Germany, and German >Reformed folks ALSO came to New Orleans and up the river to the Missouri, >founding what became known as the Evangelical synod of North America. >"Evangelical" here does NOT mean Albrighters or other uses of that word; it >means German-background "protestant," though now-a-days the word often >implies "Lutheran" in Germany. (This terminology is really mixed up!!) This >was the group who established Eden Theological Seminary and a printing press >in St. Louis, and Elmhurst College near Chicago, among others. > > This latter group was the "Evangelical" part of the merger with the >former German Reformed denomination that became the "Evangelical and >Reformed" denomination which many of us can remember. I assume that all of >the former E&R churches in Centre Co came from the German Reformed and NOT >from the Evangelical Synod of North America. The various permutations of >this group all taught from the Heidelberg Catechism, and many congregations >descended from them still do. They operated Franklin & Marshall College >(men) (Lancaster), Heidelberg College (Tiffin OH), Hood College (women), >Frederick MD, Cedar Crest College (also women), Allentown, in PA or >vicinity, plus others elsewhere. Most are now co-ed. Their theological >seminary has been in Lancaster since 1899, across college Avenue from >Franklin & Marshall College.

There is no such list, but you can consult tax records to see who was living in any given municipality in a given year. These are in the basement of the library at Bellefonte and are not indexed, but are alphabetical within each year, filed by municipality. The early census would also tell you names of families living here (every ten years) if you went page-by-page. You can do wildcard searches on the Centre County naturalization records using the * character which should give you considerable latitude. Justin At 02:43 AM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >thank you for the timeline, Justin, I was interested to see how the >area was settled over time, >especially in relation to my PA Dutch people....now I wonder if it's >possible to narrow it down a >bit more...is there a list of people who settled in Centre Co. in >the 1830's? preferably in Spring >or Bellefonte, but that may be asking to much. especially the early >half of the 1800'a? I'm >wondering if other German's came with my elusive ancestors, and may >either be related or at least >from the same town. >I did find, from a German archivist, that Schiechen and Schweigen >were the same place (a lucky >break for me, to pick the right town out of hundreds simply by >considering what Schiechen may have >been as spoken with a heavy German accent) but that they weren't >documented there...a pity, I'm >back to square one. and a pity that the naturalization records can't >be scanned through, you have >to know the individual's name...and guess the spelling used in the record. >Cornelia > > >Message: 21 > >Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2007 22:48:42 -0500 > >From: Justin Kirk Houser [email protected]> > >Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania > > Dutch > >To: [email protected] > >Message-ID: [email protected]> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > >Centre County's settlement can be understood, briefly, in this way: > > > >1700s - initial influx of Scots-Irish (Presbyterian) settlers in the valleys > >1790s-1840s - "Pennsylvania Dutch" (Lutheran and Reformed, > >Evangelical/United Brethren, a few Mennonite) move into the valleys > >from the southeastern counties; Scots-Irish push westward and up into > >mountainous areas (Snow Shoe, Philipsburg, etc. areas) > >c.1800-c.1865 - Many African Americans pass through on the > >"Underground Railroad;" a considerable portion stay so that there is > >a sizable African American population in Bellefonte by the time of > >the Civil War > >1830s-1860s - Irish (Roman Catholic) come into the area to work on > >the canals, and stay; waves of Irish immigrants follow; newer German > >immigrants come into parts of the county, including a small colony > >called "Germania" in Burnside Twp. and a number of farming families > >in Halfmoon Valley; other nationalities arrive in small numbers > (English, etc.) > >1880-1920 - Tremendous influx of Italian and Slavic settlers of > >various nationalities, settling chiefly around Bellefonte and in the > >Snow Shoe/Philipsburg regions, and changing the ethnic composition of > >those areas drastically > >Post WWII - Penn State attracts residents from all over the world, > >particularly to the State College area; moderate numbers of Asians, > >Middle Eastern residents, etc., increasing as time continues > >1990s - Russian Baptist immigrants begin settlement in Pleasant Gap > >and State College areas > > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jean makes an excellent point. Yes, there was also a Quaker settlement in Centre County, starting in the 1790s/1800s which I neglected to mention, mainly concentrated in the Halfmoon Valley, the Unionville area, and in Bellefonte proper. There were regular Meetings established at Stormstown, Unionville, and Bellefonte. Stormstown and Unionville were on the Hicksite side (I believe) after the famous 1826 split. Bellefonte remained with the Orthodox side. None of these meetings exist today, but the State College Friends Meeting is a descendant and includes many of the old Stormstown families. Elwood Way wrote a good history of the Society of Friends in Centre County. Many of these people moved on to Clearfield County by the mid-1800s, but not all. At 06:30 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >Just to add a bit to the topic above. I descend from Roger Kirk of Yorkshire >who became Quaker and seemed to have joined the encouraged by England >migration to the six counties of Northern Ireland. Most of the >Scot-Irish appeared >to have been the blunt of this migration. > >The History of Cecil County Maryland details the tension between the Quakers >and the other Protestant religions as the Quakers did not believe in war or >war taxes and taught more universal literacy than was in vogue in >the 1600 and >1700s. Until Mason and Dixon surveyed the Mason Dixon line, the >Quakers living >on the boundary of PA, DE, and MD called it PA. Others called it for their >colonies. The Mennonite Germans were also a religious group that did not >believe in war and the book Pennsylvania Colony and Commonwealth >which is being >uploaded on a website now gives the Quaker version of this conflict >as the Cecil >County, MD, history gives the other religion's sides. > >The Revolutionary War created crisis of belief and action for the Quakers. I >have two Quakers who are credited with fighting in the Revolutionary War in >spite of their faith and both moved into Centre County; later their families >traveled onto Clearfield County. The Kirk Family History written by George >Calvin Kirk includes reminisces handed down about a skirmish his great grand >father Thomas Kirk b. June 04/1744 was in side by side with his >neighbors and the >internal conflicts they had even firing a rifle. > >By the way I now live in Wayne County, OH and combined with adjoining Holmes >County we have the largest Amish population in the world. We also have a >population of Mennonites just about as great. > >Jean > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This congregation is in present-day Juniata County, but this was Mifflin Co. before 1831. At 11:43 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >I am looking to find a marriage certificate on Robert Edminston & >Nancy Ebbs 10/19/1813. > >What I have says Marriages by John Hutchinson, Pastor, Presbyterian >Congregation, Mifflintown and Lost Creek Pennsylvania 1806 - 1844. > >Was or is the Lost Creek Valley of Mifflintown in Centre Co., >Mifflin Co., or Juniata County? > > > >Susan > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am not certain who this man was. The one called "Perry John" Lucas who served under Perry lived from 1789 to 1858 and is buried at Askey Cem., Snow Shoe Twp. He was the son of Charles Lucas & Nancy and a grandson of Benedict Lucas. The following is from Linn's History: Linn's History of Centre County, 1883, on Snow Shoe Township, page 423. "About the same time (1825), or soon after, Perry John Lucas, from the Bald Eagle valley, settled on a Wallace tract, adjoining the 'Snow Shoe Camp Surveys.' His ancestors emigrated at an early period from the State of Maryland to Centre County, and their descendants are almost as numerous as the descendents of Jacob. Perry John served his country faithfully in the war of 1812; was on board of Perry' s fleet, and had a foot severely injured by a cannon-carriage wheel passing over it. After his dischrge from the army and his return home , he was called Perry John, to distinguish him from the many other Johns among his kindred. He opened and cultivated a farm, on which he lived, and where he died on the 27th day of September, 1858, aged 69 years. He raised a family of six sons, and several daughters. The family was strongly represented in the war to preserve the Union. Nelson was killed at second Bull Run; McCalmot died in camp at Langley; Thomas died of disease contracted in the service after his discharge; Isaac and Jesse, after serving their country faithfully, were honorably discharged, and returned to Snow Shoe, where they now reside; and Samuel Y. also resides in Snow Shoe, and is one of its most highly-respected citizens. The eldest daughter is the wife of Meese Gunsalus; the second daughter is the wife of Capt. William White." Linn's History of Centre County, 1883, on the War of 1812, page 52 . A medal is depicted with the inscription: "We have met the enemy and they are ours. To John Lucas in testimony of his patriotism and bravery in the naval action on Lake Erie, September 10, 1813." At 04:39 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >Who was the Perry John Lucas 1850-1921 whose parents were James J. >Lucas 1828-____ and Nancy? I was confused by the bio where it said >the one Lucas was known thereafter as Perry John Lucas for having >fought under Perry. So census may not agree with fact. This Perry >John Lucas is buried in Sylvan Cemetery in Clearfield County, PA. > >Claire > > > > > > From: "tjefferson" <[email protected]> > > Date: 2007/01/07 Sun PM 06:17:50 EST > > To: <[email protected]> > > Subject: [PACENTRE] Lucas > > > > Does anyone have any information on Perry Lucas' father and mother. Perry > > was born 1815 in Centre County. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Denise Lucas Jefferson > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

See this map: http://tinyurl.com/wtpl9 At 12:25 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >Hi, > Where exactly is Howard , PA ? > Kindly > Bea > >[email protected] wrote: > The Strunk, I'm not too sure. They would have lived in the Howard, Pa. area > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Mark, There was no significant Dutch population here at that time. There were a few families of Dutch descent, such as the Gunsallus family (through their maternal ancestry) in the Howard area, the DeLong family and the DeHaas family, also down that way. There was no organized Dutch community. Justin At 09:14 PM 1/8/2007, you wrote: >Hi all, >Several people have explained to me, Pennsylvania Dutch, more of >Germanic group and others not so much immigrants from the Netherlands. >Since mine came from Netherlands and settled in Centre, would there >have been a Dutch population at that time? > >Thank you, >Mark > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Sent: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 7:53 AM >Subject: [PACENTRE] Pennsylvania Dutch counties > > >My opinion is that it is somewhat risky to name certain counties as being >"Pennsylvania Dutch" -- that is, risking slighting people of "Pennsylvania >Dutch" heritage who were in counties other than those cited. I suspect the >Pennsylvania Deutsch (German/Swiss/Huguenot) have an influence in just about >every county of the state and also those counties in Maryland >which border on >the >Mason-Dixon line. > >My Houtz, Garbrick, Shuey, Ziegler, Shower(s)/Schauer, Etters, Loesch, >Holderman, Shearer/Scherer, and Waltenberger lines were all of "Pennsylvania >Dutch" ancestry, settling in Centre County. Many of them spoke German as >indicated by some of the census records. This would have been >"German" of the > >Pennsylvania Deutsch dialect, of course. > >It is my guess that the Pennsylvania Dutch have left their imprint just >about everywhere in the state -- although, admittedly, there are >some counties >that are more Pennsylvania Dutch than others. > >Fred Houts in MN > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] >with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of >the message >________________________________________________________________________ >Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and >security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from >across the web, free AOL Mail and more. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >[email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

A new book is being published to document Penn State history through the eyes of the Daily Collegian newspaper, 1887-now. Some of you may be interested in this resource which was advertised over the Penn State Newswire, and I thus doubt that many of you would know about it. The article is found here: http://live.psu.edu/index.php?sec=vs_highlight&story=21509 Justin

" Bellefonte native honored to be presidential pallbearer" See this article in the CDT: http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/16423444.htm Justin

Hi, What Wagner 's are you researching and, what Oyler family members ? Kindly Bea Louise <[email protected]> wrote: My ancestors: Boone Thompson Dietz Mann Confer Wagner Allen Packer Cumberland County: Oyler/Oiler Fahler/Failor ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Pat! No, I'm glad you jumped in. I never gave it another thought. However, your response came through with no characters or indents markers on my side. I have never messed around with the settings in AOL mail, but now, I think I will try some different settings....and flood Karl with test emails!. hahaha! Mark in Kansas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 10:21 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] Karl Moyer's e-mail format question Mark, Although Karl raised a non-genealogy related issue, it's a somewhat, sort of, kind of list-related issue, so I'm going to take a crack at it here. To repeat his query: Every so often I get a message that looks like the above with those little upright rectangular "boxes" separating sentences. I've wondered if they represent the use of the space bar, and I've wondered who they appear in my screen. Does anyone know if they come from a particular sort of computer or text program or e-mail program? Mark, do you write directly into an e-mail program? Well, I'm not sure, but the "boxes" Karl sees may be reply-indent symbols. For example, for messages in Plain Text (as required by the list) my Microsoft Outlook Express program (which I have, but don't use) allows selecting either a greater than (>) sign, a vertical bar, or a colon as the indent symbol -- or apparently, none at all. The selection is made by going to the Tool Bar and clicking Tools/Options/Send tab/, which brings up a window that includes "Mail Sending Format," with a "button" for selecting "Plain Text Settings." Clicking that brings up a check box that says "Indent the original text with [either of 3 selectable symbols] when replying or forwarding." If the box is left unchecked, I guess you either get no indent, or you get an indent without a symbol. (As I say, I don't use this program. I use Mozilla Firefox, and I think it handles Plain Text quite differently.) Something else while I'm at it: Another option when sending Plain Text messages is to select the number of characters to show in each line before it wraps. Personally, I like to see the text fill the width of the screen, which I believe is 72 characters. I'm sure there must be someone out there who knows a lot more about this than I do, but when no one steped up with a good answer, I decided to step in, as meager as my knowledge is. Hope I'm not way off base! Pat [email protected] wrote: > Oh, Karl, My apologies. When I first read thru your email I mistook > some of your information as "Box" Actually, your return mail they do > return as >, greater than sign. I don't know what causes that. But I > do type directly into AOL mail. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Mark, Although Karl raised a non-genealogy related issue, it's a somewhat, sort of, kind of list-related issue, so I'm going to take a crack at it here. To repeat his query: Every so often I get a message that looks like the above with those little upright rectangular "boxes" separating sentences. I've wondered if they represent the use of the space bar, and I've wondered who they appear in my screen. Does anyone know if they come from a particular sort of computer or text program or e-mail program? Mark, do you write directly into an e-mail program? Well, I'm not sure, but the "boxes" Karl sees may be reply-indent symbols. For example, for messages in Plain Text (as required by the list) my Microsoft Outlook Express program (which I have, but don't use) allows selecting either a greater than (>) sign, a vertical bar, or a colon as the indent symbol -- or apparently, none at all. The selection is made by going to the Tool Bar and clicking Tools/Options/Send tab/, which brings up a window that includes "Mail Sending Format," with a "button" for selecting "Plain Text Settings." Clicking that brings up a check box that says "Indent the original text with [either of 3 selectable symbols] when replying or forwarding." If the box is left unchecked, I guess you either get no indent, or you get an indent without a symbol. (As I say, I don't use this program. I use Mozilla Firefox, and I think it handles Plain Text quite differently.) Something else while I'm at it: Another option when sending Plain Text messages is to select the number of characters to show in each line before it wraps. Personally, I like to see the text fill the width of the screen, which I believe is 72 characters. I'm sure there must be someone out there who knows a lot more about this than I do, but when no one steped up with a good answer, I decided to step in, as meager as my knowledge is. Hope I'm not way off base! Pat [email protected] wrote: > Oh, Karl, My apologies. When I first read thru your email I mistook > some of your information as "Box" Actually, your return mail they do > return as >, greater than sign. I don't know what causes that. But I > do type directly into AOL mail.

Oh, Karl, My apologies. When I first read thru your email I mistook some of your information as "Box" Actually, your return mail they do return as >, greater than sign. I don't know what causes that. But I do type directly into AOL mail. Mark in Kansas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch > WOW! this is over my head. think I'll take a couple days off after reading > this! Actually it is interesting but speaking for myself, I need to digest it > a bit! I am curious, though, Karl, John Casper appears in your email. I have > many,many John Casper Ros(s) in my group. Is your group from the the > Netherlands. If you don't mind where did the "John Casper" originate? Was > Casper more of a Christian name used ah...more of a title then moved around > when they arrived in America? I ask because not only do my ancestors have John > Casper all the generations thru but the first emigrant "Casper" Ros(s) was > simply listed as Casper. I wonder if he would have had a middle or first > name? Thank you! Mark Ross Permit a question -- and please, NOT a negative criticism, either!! -- about the above. Every so often I get a message that looks like the above with those little upright rectangular "boxes" separating sentences. I've wondered if they represent the use of the space bar, and I've wondered who they appear in my screen. Does anyone know if they come from a particular sort of computer or text program or e-mail program? Mark, do you write directly into an e-mail program? Now to the substance of your questions: Apparently many Germans had the practice of giving a child several names, the first of which was of some saint -- perhaps also of some other highly-esteemed person?? -- but really used the second name as the actual name. Thus, for example, my great-grandfather John Henry Moyer (d. 1872) signed his will as "Henry Moyer," and the sale bill regarding some of his personal property, etc., listed him likewise, even though his grave marker is John Henry Moyer. However, his son John Henry Moyer, (d. 1928) began to be known as "John," and one might guess that among the Lebanon Co. Pa. Dutch this practice changed at about the turn of the century. I would be grateful to anyone who can comment about this from a position of good authority on the subject. One might guess, therefore, that John Casper Stöver actually went by "Casper," though we today may suffer the "problem" of looking at formal documents that include his name, see his full "Christian name" with that saint's name first, and conclude, out of our own cultural assumptions, that HE also called himself "John Casper Stöver" or even just "John." <Casper> was a common German name, of course, and you might raise the same sort of issue with a name <John Casper Roß>, though you should not conclude firmly that he went by <Casper> simply from my comments here. Related to all this: Justin: when branches of my Meyer family moved to Centre Co, they maintained the Meyer name, and it remains there to this day, as with Meyer's Dairy and Don Meyer's motel the Autoport, both on East Atherton Street. Yet, in Lebanon Co., the name went to "Moyer," which was a Pa. Dutch mis-pronunciation of "Meyer" and which began to take on the spelling people were hearing. This is so blatant as to find my great-great-grandfather, who moved to Brush Valley in retired years, buried at Rebersburg under the name Michael MOYER but two years later a grandson of a Centre Co. so buried as William Franklin MEYER: grandfather and grandson buried next to each other with different surname spellings!! And since Michael's widow moved to a son west of Boalsburg and died 30 years later, her son buried her at Boasburg as Elizabeth MEYER!! Husband and wife buried under different surnames and in different locations. So, is there other evidence that Pa. Dutch folks who came to Centre Co. maintained older cultural ways, perhaps including therefore this question of one <John Casper Roß> really being known as <Casper>? Can anyone address these question with better authority than I? Cordially, Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.

Hi Karl, Negative criticism, I get it all the time. A little more won't matter! Just kidding, the boxes you refer are not visible on my screen at all! Your response looks fine as well. The only time I would see these characters, if they are characters, is using a word processor. However, I put my numerous questions directly into AOL mail. Sorry can't be of any help there. So you are saying you see these characters on your side then on my email or all email? I'd be curious to know? On Casper Ros or Ross he's a problem for me. I'm getting headaches now trying to figure him out. Like you were saying, there were several John Casper Ross's throughout the generations. Some went by John others by John Casper Ross. Then at the top of the pyramid stood "Casper Ross" first to America. But he didn't have or put down another middle name anywhere that I have found. However, in corresponding to some researchers in the Netherlands, they have found a Casper Jacob Ros(s), only 1 "s". He was born in 1781 in Amsterdam, same place the Nat/Cit papers have him as being a Native and Citizen. I could go on and on, but, 2 things bother me alot about this. 1- his fathers name is Christian Ros, his mother's name is Aalida Hop. 2- his birth date according to the 1850-1860 and nat/cit papers has im being born in 1875. His father was from Germany right across the Rhine from Amsterdam, and his mother from Amsterdam. It makes me wonder why he didn't name any of his kids after his father or even his middle or given name, assuming "Casper" is more a Christian title. You have made me think of another thing and that of his last name. "Ros" is typical of Dutch, however if his father was German, why would the last name be "Ros" rather than the german end?(I can't put the special character on the end) Any comments? Mark in Kansas -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [PACENTRE] what counties considered to be Pennsylvania Dutch > WOW! this is over my head. think I'll take a couple days off after reading > this! Actually it is interesting but speaking for myself, I need to digest it > a bit! I am curious, though, Karl, John Casper appears in your email. I have > many,many John Casper Ros(s) in my group. Is your group from the the > Netherlands. If you don't mind where did the "John Casper" originate? Was > Casper more of a Christian name used ah...more of a title then moved around > when they arrived in America? I ask because not only do my ancestors have John > Casper all the generations thru but the first emigrant "Casper" Ros(s) was > simply listed as Casper. I wonder if he would have had a middle or first > name? Thank you! Mark Ross Permit a question -- and please, NOT a negative criticism, either!! -- about the above. Every so often I get a message that looks like the above with those little upright rectangular "boxes" separating sentences. I've wondered if they represent the use of the space bar, and I've wondered who they appear in my screen. Does anyone know if they come from a particular sort of computer or text program or e-mail program? Mark, do you write directly into an e-mail program? Now to the substance of your questions: Apparently many Germans had the practice of giving a child several names, the first of which was of some saint -- perhaps also of some other highly-esteemed person?? -- but really used the second name as the actual name. Thus, for example, my great-grandfather John Henry Moyer (d. 1872) signed his will as "Henry Moyer," and the sale bill regarding some of his personal property, etc., listed him likewise, even though his grave marker is John Henry Moyer. However, his son John Henry Moyer, (d. 1928) began to be known as "John," and one might guess that among the Lebanon Co. Pa. Dutch this practice changed at about the turn of the century. I would be grateful to anyone who can comment about this from a position of good authority on the subject. One might guess, therefore, that John Casper Stöver actually went by "Casper," though we today may suffer the "problem" of looking at formal documents that include his name, see his full "Christian name" with that saint's name first, and conclude, out of our own cultural assumptions, that HE also called himself "John Casper Stöver" or even just "John." <Casper> was a common German name, of course, and you might raise the same sort of issue with a name <John Casper Roß>, though you should not conclude firmly that he went by <Casper> simply from my comments here. Related to all this: Justin: when branches of my Meyer family moved to Centre Co, they maintained the Meyer name, and it remains there to this day, as with Meyer's Dairy and Don Meyer's motel the Autoport, both on East Atherton Street. Yet, in Lebanon Co., the name went to "Moyer," which was a Pa. Dutch mis-pronunciation of "Meyer" and which began to take on the spelling people were hearing. This is so blatant as to find my great-great-grandfather, who moved to Brush Valley in retired years, buried at Rebersburg under the name Michael MOYER but two years later a grandson of a Centre Co. so buried as William Franklin MEYER: grandfather and grandson buried next to each other with different surname spellings!! And since Michael's widow moved to a son west of Boalsburg and died 30 years later, her son buried her at Boasburg as Elizabeth MEYER!! Husband and wife buried under different surnames and in different locations. So, is there other evidence that Pa. Dutch folks who came to Centre Co. maintained older cultural ways, perhaps including therefore this question of one <John Casper Roß> really being known as <Casper>? Can anyone address these question with better authority than I? Cordially, Dr. Karl E. Moyer Lancaster PA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.