As soon as I sent the last e-mail, I knew I needed to add the following. It needs to be remembered that mutations or changes in the DNA markers being tested can occur at any time or generation. So the 3 differences in the DNA results between Group 3a and participant #8179 may have occurred at any time between Richard of Jamestown (assuming he was the forefather of Group 3a) and participant #8179 - that's over 400 years. Those mutations may have occurred with the participant, his father, grandfather or at any generation since a possible shared ancestor. That is one reason why FTDNA suggests testing other descendants of an ancestor rather than just one descendant. But at this point, we probably just need to wait to see what the upgrade test results indicate - whether a shared ancestry is suggested or whether the whole theory just falls apart with several more mutations. Rebecca Rebecca Christensen <rchristen@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2006 13:20:47 -0800 (PST) From: Rebecca Christensen <rchristen@sbcglobal.net> Subject: Re: [PACE-L] Wapping to Rotherhithe -DNA testing To: Pace-L@rootsweb.com Ellen, Here is my understanding - which appears to be the same as what you said - just worded differently. If the ancestry of George Pace of 1859 can be traced back, and then a descendant found through another son of one of his ancestors was also tested and this other descendant did not have the "extra" mutations that appears in participant #8179 test results, but is a closer match to Group 3a, then yes the DNA results would be more convincing that there is a shared ancestor between Group 3a and #8179. Unfortunately, the DNA tests by themselves can't tell us who the shared ancestor might be. That still requires genealogy research. This same process of DNA testing needs to be done between Groups 3a and 3b as they are believed to also share an ancestor, long believed to be Richard Pace of Jamestown. We have so few actual Pace lines represented in the DNA study for the NC Paces. Most participants have been those who have questions about their lines - not those who believe they can trace their lines back. We need additional NC Pace lines to be tested especially those who believe they can trace their lines back so we can hopefully find the generation and family where the genetic split occurred between Groups 3a and 3b. Rebecca genealogy@snuffy.britishlibrary.net wrote: Let's see if I can get my head round this. On the "rules" page FTDNA says of a 33/37 match: "If several or many generations have passed it is likely that these two lines are related through other family members. That would require that each line had passed a mutation and one person would have experienced at least 2 mutations. The only way to confirm is to test additional family lines and find where the mutations took place. " So the research that is needed is to find out if possible whether #8179's great grandfather or great great grandfather (or further back if possible) had any male siblings with descendants. If yes, and if any of them could be traced and agreed to participate, and if any of them showed an even closer match with 3a (say, a 35/37 match), that would be very convincing, have I got it right? Ellen