This is Gordon W. Pace. My additions to the following are included in brackets. The following has been slightly reworded for clarity. On July 14 Gordon Thomas Pace of Ontario, Canada sent me an interesting email. Here are most of the contents: “You might want to … give consideration to this rather sensitive part of Pace family history that I uncovered this past week. It appears that my Pace family [which goes back to John of Middlesex and the Shropshire Paces] and Scott Aaron’s Pace family [which goes back to the Pees/Paces of Prussia] come together somewhat remotely in associated historical events, namely the Marias River Massacre of 1870 in Montana which most likely led up to the great massacre six years later, the Battle at Little Big Horn, where Custer and Sitting Bull came together, also in Montana. This week I discovered the following words in reference to the Marias River Massacre of 1870 [from] http://www.dickshovel.com/parts2.html “Joseph Kipp, half-Mandan Indian of North Dakota [was a] son of white trader James Kipp. Joseph Kipp married one of Heavy Runner’s daughters, Martha, [after the Marias River Massacre] and adopted her children, who had been left fatherless by the soldiers.” Gordon T. said, I recognized the surname Kipp from some of Scott Aaron’s background, quoted as follows: “David Pace was brother to William Pace who m. Paulina Chapel – from early registers of the Old Anglican Church, St. Thomas, Ontario. Marriage: 26th Dec 1827. William and Paulina Pace were grandparents to William John Pace who I have been researching as was Brenda Howorko at the BC and Alberta Archives, as you probably know, for some time now. It’s like so many building blocks of history coming together.” [GordonT. notes that the following info comes from: www.pacefamilyhistory.info/lines/yarmouth.htm#david [The above] David Pace b. abt 1817 and m. Catherine Everitt. One of their daughters, Hannah Pace, m. Darwin Kipp in Yarmouth Twp, Elgin Co, Ontario. Gordon T. says: so I wrote Scott and asked if he had further Kipp info or anything that might be related which he replied: “The Darwin Kipp you listed was the great-grandson of James Kipp (1751-1785). James Kipp (the famous fur-trader, who was close with many Indian tribes in Montana) was named after James (1751-1785) … his uncle. The Joseph Kipp that you mention was James’ (the fur trader) son. [In other words Darwin Kipp was a son of Joseph Kipp, who was associated with the Marias River Massacre.] [Joseph] had a colorful career in Canada and Montana, being known as “The Merchant Prince of the High Missouri.” He testified under oath to the Indian Claims Commission in February, 1913, forth-three years after the massacre.” [Gordon T. sent me a brief description of the Marias River Massacre but I found a more detailed description online, which includes an important revelation about Joseph Kipp. The source is: www.montanaheritageproject.org/edheritage/articles/studentessay/marias.htm It was written by Scott Warnick and following are the relevant excerpts: “On January 15, 1870, a detachment of the U. S., Calvary from Fort Shaw under the command of Major Eugene Baker marched north towards the Marias River. They suffered heavily from the bitter cold, as they could not start fires out of fear that the Indians would detect their column. The temperature hovered around thirty degrees below zero. But the cold didn’t matter, because they were going to kill Indians…. Malcolm Clarke’s death at the hands of Owl Child had inflamed the public and the cavalry into a state of fury. There had to be repercussions. Owl Child was an ambitious young Indian warrior who thought to gain notice by stealing several of Clarke’s horses. He succeeded at this, but was eventually captured by Clarke and beaten. Now, to beat an Indian warrior in front of his entire camp was unforgivable. Therefore, Owl Child took a band of warriors to Clarke and killed him and several others. And so, on January 23, two hundred soldiers lined along snowy bluffs at the bend of the Marias River. The camp was surrounded, its warriors were away, and most of the remaining Indians were women and small children. Chief Heavy Runner [per Gordon T. he was Chief of the Piegan Tribe whose people are closely related to the Blood Reserve folks of the Blackfoot Nation and were considered peaceful Indians, see below] came out of his lodge waving a safe-conduct paper [issued by the Government]. An army scout, Joe Kipp [the above Joseph Kipp] shouted that it was the wrong camp but was threatened to silence. The soldiers were supposed to be attacking Mountain Chief’s village. Another scout, Joe Cobell, fired a single shot that dropped Heavy Runner in his tracks. The relentless spray of army bullets that was followed was dubbed as the greatest slaughter of Indians ever made by U. S. troops. The hasty count performed by the soldiers revealed 173 dead Indians, as well as the 140 women and children that were captured. The soldiers lost only one man …” [It seems likely to me that Joseph Kipp did not fire a shot as he knew that this was the wrong tribe. gwp] [Gordon Thomas Pace added these additional excerpted comments:] “Sitting Bull has been mentioned in my personal Pace family history throughout my life. My grandfather and his aunt and uncle at Lethbridge, Alberta (1880’s, 1890’s) … had been rather closely associated with Sitting Bull when he spent time near Lethbridge at the Blood Reserve …, according to a DVD on Sitting Bull I bought at the Oklahoma History Centre last summer. I had thought my elder’s comments rather fictitious but now, maybe not… Many people were at my grandfather’s funeral in 1926 at Lethbridge. Over the years, my people didn’t know any of the many people at the funeral; they had just arrived from England but they went to the funeral at Lethbridge. Now we (Fred Pace descendants) figure they were people of the Blood Reserve. And I have this month been approached again by another member of the Pace family, a descendant of Fred Pace, who is a school teacher there and saying her children are taking quite an interest in their family history. Since next year’s Pace Reunion will be held at Bozeman, Montana, I wonder about these facts of history and the sensitivity of such. Could it be that other Pace ancestors were killed in these events? Some interesting findings occur as we pry into history and uncover events of the past.” ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com

Interesting stuff Gordon. Thanks! One minor correction...in my trying to explain which KIPP was which, I think I created more confusion than clarification... "[In other words Darwin Kipp was a son of Joseph Kipp, who was associated with the Marias River Massacre.]" Actually, Darwin KIPP was the son of a Jesse KIPP. So Darwin wasn't a direct descendant of that Joseph Kipp, but they were cousins. Joseph's father James (the fur trader), was named after Darwin's great-grandfather James (1751-1785). Probably not of great interest to the PACE list, but figured I'd straighten that out in case any KIPP researcher stumbles across this thread in the future. Scott --- On Wed, 10/28/09, Gordon W. Pace <gordonwpace@peoplepc.com> wrote: > From: Gordon W. Pace <gordonwpace@peoplepc.com> > Subject: [PACE] Pace, Kipp and the Marias River Massacre > To: "pace@rootsweb.com" <pace@rootsweb.com> > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 2009, 4:10 PM > This is Gordon W. Pace.  My > additions to the following are included in brackets. > The following has been slightly reworded for clarity. > On July 14 Gordon Thomas Pace of Ontario, Canada sent me an > interesting email.  Here are most of the > contents:  “You might want to … give consideration > to this rather sensitive part of Pace family history that I > uncovered this past week. > It appears that my Pace family [which goes back to John of > Middlesex and the Shropshire Paces] and Scott Aaron’s Pace > family [which goes back to the Pees/Paces of Prussia] come > together somewhat remotely in associated historical events, > namely the Marias River Massacre of 1870 in Montana which > most likely led up to the great massacre six years later, > the Battle at Little Big Horn, where Custer and Sitting Bull > came together, also in Montana. > This week I discovered the following words in reference to > the Marias River Massacre of 1870 [from] http://www.dickshovel.com/parts2.html > “Joseph Kipp, half-Mandan Indian of North Dakota [was a] > son of white trader James Kipp.  Joseph Kipp married > one of Heavy Runner’s daughters, Martha, [after the Marias > River Massacre] and adopted her children, who had been left > fatherless by the soldiers.” > Gordon T. said, I recognized the surname Kipp from some of > Scott Aaron’s background, quoted as follows: > “David Pace was brother to William Pace who m. Paulina > Chapel – from early registers of the Old Anglican Church, > St. Thomas, Ontario.  Marriage:  26th Dec 1827. > William and Paulina Pace were grandparents to William John > Pace who I have been researching as was Brenda Howorko at > the BC and Alberta Archives, as you probably know, for some > time now.  It’s like so many building blocks of > history coming together.” > [GordonT. notes that the following info comes from:  > www.pacefamilyhistory.info/lines/yarmouth.htm#david > [The above] David Pace b. abt 1817 and m. Catherine > Everitt.  One of their daughters, Hannah Pace, m. > Darwin Kipp in Yarmouth Twp, Elgin Co, Ontario. > Gordon T. says: so I wrote Scott and asked if he had > further Kipp info or anything that might be related which he > replied: > “The Darwin Kipp you listed was the great-grandson of > James Kipp (1751-1785).  James Kipp (the famous > fur-trader, who was close with many Indian tribes in > Montana) was named after James (1751-1785) … his > uncle.  The Joseph Kipp that you mention was James’ > (the fur trader) son.  [In other words Darwin Kipp was > a son of Joseph Kipp, who was associated with the Marias > River Massacre.]  [Joseph] had a colorful career in > Canada and Montana, being known as “The Merchant Prince of > the High Missouri.”  He testified under oath to the > Indian Claims Commission in February, 1913, forth-three > years after the massacre.” > [Gordon T. sent me a brief description of the Marias River > Massacre but I found a more detailed description online, > which includes an important revelation about Joseph Kipp. > The source is:  > www.montanaheritageproject.org/edheritage/articles/studentessay/marias.htm > It was written by Scott Warnick and following are the > relevant excerpts: > “On January 15, 1870, a detachment of the U. S., Calvary > from Fort Shaw under the command of Major Eugene Baker > marched north towards the Marias River.  They suffered > heavily from the bitter cold, as they could not start fires > out of fear that the Indians would detect their > column.  The temperature hovered around thirty degrees > below zero.  But the cold didn’t matter, because they > were going to kill Indians…. > Malcolm Clarke’s death at the hands of Owl Child had > inflamed the public and the cavalry into a state of > fury.  There had to be repercussions.  Owl Child > was an ambitious young Indian warrior who thought to gain > notice by stealing several of Clarke’s horses.  He > succeeded at this, but was eventually captured by Clarke and > beaten.  Now, to beat an Indian warrior in front of his > entire camp was unforgivable.  Therefore, Owl Child > took a band of warriors to Clarke and killed him and several > others. > And so, on January 23, two hundred soldiers lined along > snowy bluffs at the bend of the Marias River.  The camp > was surrounded, its warriors were away, and most of the > remaining Indians were women and small children. > Chief Heavy Runner [per Gordon T. he was Chief of the > Piegan Tribe whose people are closely related to the Blood > Reserve folks of the Blackfoot Nation and were considered > peaceful Indians, see below] came out of his lodge waving a > safe-conduct paper [issued by the Government].  An army > scout, Joe Kipp [the above Joseph Kipp] shouted that it was > the wrong camp but was threatened to silence.  The > soldiers were supposed to be attacking Mountain Chief’s > village.  Another scout, Joe Cobell, fired a single > shot that dropped Heavy Runner in his tracks.  > The relentless spray of army bullets that was followed was > dubbed as the greatest slaughter of Indians ever made by U. > S. troops.  The hasty count performed by the soldiers > revealed 173 dead Indians, as well as the 140 women and > children that were captured. The soldiers lost only one man > …”  [It seems likely to me that Joseph Kipp did not > fire a shot as he knew that this was the wrong tribe. gwp] > [Gordon Thomas Pace added these additional excerpted > comments:] > “Sitting Bull has been mentioned in my personal Pace > family history throughout my life.  My grandfather and > his aunt and uncle at Lethbridge, Alberta (1880’s, > 1890’s) … had been rather closely associated with > Sitting Bull when he spent time near Lethbridge at the Blood > Reserve …, according to a DVD on Sitting Bull I bought at > the Oklahoma History Centre last summer.  I had thought > my elder’s comments rather fictitious but now, maybe > not… > Many people were at my grandfather’s funeral in 1926 at > Lethbridge.  Over the years, my people didn’t know > any of the many people at the funeral; they had just arrived > from England but they went to the funeral at > Lethbridge.  Now we (Fred Pace descendants) figure they > were people of the Blood Reserve.  And I have this > month been approached again by another member of the Pace > family, a descendant of Fred Pace, who is a school teacher > there and saying her children are taking quite an interest > in their family history. > Since next year’s Pace Reunion will be held at Bozeman, > Montana, I wonder about these facts of history and the > sensitivity of such.  Could it be that other Pace > ancestors were killed in these events?  Some > interesting findings occur as we pry into history and > uncover events of the past.” > > > ________________________________________ > PeoplePC Online > A better way to Internet > http://www.peoplepc.com > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACE-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message