I have been working on improving and better organizing the DNA charts. I have started with group 3, separating group 3a from 3b with a row showing the DYS numbers for easier reading, grouping the descendents from a common ancestor and using colors to separate them, and giving a more complete lineage in each case (thanks to Rebecca for the suggestion). This makes for easier analysis. For example, one interesting occurrence is in 15548 and 163053, both descendents of William Pace + Ruth Lambert and whose common ancestor is Harvey Pace. They both have a mutation in DYS 385a. It appears that this mutation occurred at Harvey Pace because (a) none of the other lineages up to and including Harvey's father have that mutation, and (b) these two lines diverge immediately after Harvey, so the mutation probably did not occur after Harvey. I say probably because there might be a rare case of two separate mutations after Harvey that just happened to coincide. However, this is helpful information. If we get more Harvey descendents through different sons, it would verify this hypothesis, and it could help to verify the lineage of some who might not be sure or even to provide a clue to the lineage of those who do not have a tree going back that far. I have received numerous suggestions on improving the pages, some worth following, some would not work. Quite a few came from a lady named Ellen. The discussion became so detailed that I did not feel it belonged on the list so I tried to go off list, but Ellen refused in a rather caustic posting that she does not do "back door" interchanges. She and I are both stubborn people and I will not discuss matters going into minute detail on the list, as I do not think it is pertinent to all on the list. So our collaboration is over, but I have filed the better suggestions and will act on some of them. The DNA pages have sort of "just grown" and can stand some reorganizing and clarifying. Doing so will take some time but I will peck away at it little by little. Glad to hear any suggestions. The changes are on the group 3 page at http://www.pacesociety.org/DNA/Group3.htm Have a look and give me your reactions. Roy Johnson