this all makes sense to me, as my old family records do show the two richard paces and all this info in marriages. i think this is the closest to the facts that i have seen thank you so much ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Blair" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 3:03 AM Subject: [PACE] Rebecca Poythress > Rebecca (probably Coggan) married Francis Poythress. They had a son, > Francis, and a daughter Rebecca. > > By 1692, when Mrs Rebecca Poythress patented the escheat land, her husband > Francis was dead. So Rebecca Poythress the daughter must have been born > by 1692 (give or take a few months). But just WHEN she was born is not > known, at least not by me. > > Mrs Rebecca Poythress then remarried, to Charles Bartholomew. She and her > new husband had a daughter, Ann. > > In 1711, Mrs Rebecca Poythress Bartholomew and her husband Charles > Bartholomew gave land to their two UNMARRIED daughters, Rebecca Poythress > and Ann Bartholomew. > > We know that Rebecca Poythress the daughter was not married in 1711, > because if she had been married, the land would have been given to her > husband, probably using some phrase such as "in right of his wife". But > it wasn't. It was given to her, in her own right and in her own name. > Therefore, she was unmarried in 1711. > > Meanwhile, in 1711, Mr and Mrs Richard and Rebecca Pace had been married > to each other since at least 1698. We know this because their oldest son, > Richard, patented land in NC in 1720. He had to be 21 to patent land, so > he was born by 1699. So by 1698, Richard and Rebecca must have been > married. They probably met and married in Prince George Co. (please note > the word "probably"), but by 1711 they were probably living in the part of > Surry Co. which later became Brunswick Co. (Probably.) > > Back in Prince George, there was another, younger, Richard Pace, who in > 1718 had land deals with Francis Poythress, the son of Mrs Rebecca Coggan > Poythress Bartholomew and her first husband. The earlier researchers > didn't realize that there were TWO Richard Paces around. The records > which prove this, had not yet been unearthed. Consequently, the earlier > researchers assumed that the Richard Pace who was selling land with > Francis Poythress in 1718, was the same Richard Pace who was married to a > Rebecca. Some (not all) therefore concluded that the Rebecca who was > married to a Richard Pace in NC was Rebecca, the sister of Francis > Poythress who had land deals with Richard Pace in Prince George. An easy > mistake to make, but it IS a mistake. It shows the dangers of confusing > two different people with the same name. > > Now we know that there WERE two Richard Paces. The Richard Pace who had > the land deals with Francis Poythress married Sarah Woodlief. There are > records which prove this. > > The younger Richard Pace, who married Sarah Woodlief, was probably a > nephew of the Richard Pace who married Rebecca [maiden name unknown]. > > As for the young Rebecca Poythress, we have no records which reveal what > happened to her. > > I hope this helps to clarify. Quite useful to get all this put down, if > I've explained it clearly enough. I will try to find time to post it to > the rootsweb and genforum Pace forums also, with the record citations. I > hope that may help future family researchers to untangle the background to > this Poythress mistake. > > James > > > --- On Wed, 1/7/09, debbie pace <[email protected]> wrote: > >> it looks like from what i can see, rebecca coggin(cogan) >> married a francis >> poythress and one of their children was rebecca poythress >> who married >> richard iii >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "debbie pace" >> <[email protected]> >> To: <[email protected]> >> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 8:49 PM >> Subject: Re: [PACE] Richard m. Mary -- correction >> >> >> > dont think ANYONE knows for sure. if so, there >> wouldnt be this >> > controversy >> > about birthdates, marriages, etc. thanks >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Roy Johnson" <[email protected]> >> > To: <[email protected]> >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 5:39 PM >> > Subject: Re: [PACE] Richard m. Mary -- correction >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On >> >> Behalf >> >> Of debbie pace >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 9:58 PM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: Re: [PACE] Richard m. Mary -- correction >> >> >> >> my older family records show rebecca poythress and >> there is marriage >> >> records >> >> >> >> to show this. i have that francis poythress >> wife's name was rebecca >> >> coggan(maiden name) richard pace ii was married >> to mary baker or mary >> >> knowles??? >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================================ >> >> ===================================== >> >> >> >> Where are those marriage records? The most >> diligent research by the best >> >> Pace genealogists have not found any such records. >> >> >> >> In fact, research has found the opposite: Richard >> and Rebecca Pace were >> >> married and had children 14 years before Rebecca >> Poythress was born. So >> >> how >> >> could she be his wife" >> >> >> >> Here is the info from Mrs. Maude McClure Kelly, >> one of the best Pace >> >> researchers: >> >> >> >> A letter written to MRS. ELEANOR PACE TERRELL 20 >> MAY 1971 by MISS MAUD >> >> KELLY, Attorney, who devoted over forty years >> accumulating Pace family >> >> records, states on p. 5 of the letter that RICHARD >> PACE (4) DID NOT MARRY >> >> A >> >> POYTHRESS and, "FURTHERMORE, THE REBECCA >> POYTHRESS WHOM SOME CLAIM AS HIS >> >> WIFE WAS BORN ABOUT 1714, WHEREAS RICHARD AND >> REBECCA PACE HAD GIRLS BORN >> >> IN >> >> THE 1690'S AND A SON, RICHARD, BORN 1699-1700, >> WHICH IS 14 YEARS AT LEAST >> >> BEFORE HIS SO CALLED [alleged] MOTHER WAS >> BORN." >> >> >> >> . To prove marriage records, they need to be cited >> specifically and >> >> quoted >> >> exactly. Like this: >> >> >> >> The 1608 Marriage Reg. of St. Dunstan's, >> Stepney, County of Middlesex, >> >> England. Specific wording of the marriage >> register, from Pace Society >> >> Bulletin No. 13, September, 1970: >> >> >> >> " Richard Pace of Wapping Wall Carpenter and >> Isabell Smyth of the same >> >> marryed the 5th day October 1608" >> >> >> >> It would be even better if the specific page in >> the St. Dunstan's record >> >> were cited. >> >> >> >> Thanks to all who have contributed to this >> discussion. Controversy is >> >> good >> >> if it leads to improved understanding. It is a >> struggle getting the >> >> inaccurate records out of the various gedcoms. >> >> >> >> Roy Johnson >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "val & jeff tice" >> <[email protected]> >> >> To: <[email protected]>; >> <[email protected]> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 4:46 PM >> >> Subject: Re: [PACE] Richard m. Mary -- correction >> >> >> >> >> >>> After re-reading it, it is because Richard >> Pace paid him for it. I'd >> >>> always >> >>> read that it was a Deed of Gift. I should >> have paid closer attention >> >>> earlier. It is actually just a Deed that >> doesn't mention what the >> >>> consideration was. >> >>> >> >>> Val >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On >> >>> Behalf >> >>> Of James Blair >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 4:40 PM >> >>> To: [email protected] >> >>> Subject: Re: [PACE] Richard m. Mary -- >> correction >> >>> >> >>> It's been explained to me that this >> scenario wouldn't have applied -- I >> >>> was >> >>> misunderstanding the inheritance laws. So my >> suggestion below can't >> >>> explain >> >>> why Richard Baker deeded the 140 acres to >> Richard Pace. It's a mystery >> >>> to >> >>> me. >> >>> >> >>> James >> >>> >> >>> --- On Tue, 1/6/09, James Blair >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Richard Baker's wife Ann mentions (in >> her petition to >> >>>> the Westover vestry, see >> >>>> >> http://searches2.rootsweb.com/th/read/PACE/2002-09/1032643426, >> >>>> also posted by James Pace), having >> "the charge of two >> >>>> children to maintaine". If these >> were children of >> >>>> Richard Baker's, and if one was a boy, >> by law that child >> >>>> would inherit all Richard Baker's >> property. So if Mary >> >>>> Pace really was Baker's daughter, and >> he realized he was >> >>>> soon going to die, that might be why he >> would give her >> >>>> husband a deathbed gift of land -- because >> he couldn't >> >>>> leave it as a legacy. >> >>>> >> >>>> Wholly theoretical, however. The maiden >> name of Mary Pace >> >>>> remains unproven. >> >>>> >> >>>> James >> >>>> >> >>>> --- On Mon, 1/5/09, Roy Johnson >> <[email protected]> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> > From: Roy Johnson >> <[email protected]> >> >>>> > Subject: RE: [PACE] The PG land sold >> by John and >> >>>> Richard Pace 1759 >> >>>> > To: [email protected], >> [email protected] >> >>>> > Date: Monday, January 5, 2009, 10:27 >> PM >> >>>> > Debbie and others, >> >>>> > >> >>>> > We have to be very careful to >> distinguish between >> >>>> theory >> >>>> > and fact in citing >> >>>> > these early Pace records. On the Pace >> Network I have a >> >>>> > section called >> >>>> > Problems and Controversies in Pace >> research, in which >> >>>> > several competent Pace >> >>>> > authorities state that (1) there is >> absolutely no firm >> >>>> > evidence that Richard >> >>>> > Pace married a Knowles or a Baker, >> although some >> >>>> > genealogies cite one and >> >>>> > some the other. (2) the >> Pace-Poythress marriage is >> >>>> also >> >>>> > quite questionable. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pace/poythres.htm#boykin >> >>>> > >> >>>> > The above is a discussion of the >> Pace-Poythress >> >>>> > controversy. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > >> >>>> > This URL discusses the Baker-Knowles >> controversy: >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pace/bkr_knwl.htm >> >>>> > >> >>>> > If there are no sources verifying an >> assertion, it >> >>>> cannot >> >>>> > be cited as a >> >>>> > fact. >> >>>> > >> >>>> > Roy Johnson >> >>>> > >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> ------------------------------- >> >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send >> an email to >> >>>> [email protected] with the word >> >>>> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and >> >>>> the body of the message >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------- >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >> email to >> >>> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> >>> in >> >>> the subject and the body of the message >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ------------------------------- >> >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an >> email to >> >>> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> >>> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >> to >> >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> >> in >> >> the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> >> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com >> >> Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.5/1881 - >> Release Date: 1/7/2009 >> >> 5:59 PM >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email >> to >> >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> > in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word >> 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message