Clarence Alexander Pace and John Harrison Pace (b. 1872) were the two eldest sons of John Blackburn Pace according to the online history. I have seen that particular one also. I noted that I have checked census records and it looked ok, as far as census records show. Another candidate for the service in the Spanish American War is John B. Pace born July 1875 Benton County AR, son of Milton Pace and Mary Jane Maxwell; grandson of Christopher Stump Pace. A comment or two further about the Alsey Pace family: John Blackburn Pace is the son of Edmund Alsey Pace. Edmund Alsey was born 22 Nov 1811 probably Davidson County, TN. Edmund son of Alsey Pace and Sally Stump. The other son was Christopher Stump Pace of Benton County Arkansas. The information on line in that family tree you quoted appears ok for the family of John Blackburn Pace, but has errors beyond him. Alsey Pace was born in Franklin County NC; place of death is not known. At the time he died he was enlisted in the Army, his unit was probably with Andrew Jackson. We do not know where Alsey died. The death date will be between 9 Jan 1813 and before 9 Feb 1813. His estate was admitted to probate in Robertson County TN 9 Feb 1813, I have a copy of the original record. (so he could not have died in 1815.) Birth date is uncertain. I have it between 1770-1780. Alsey's wife was Sally Stump. She has no middle name. I know where the error concerning the middle name came from--it dates back to the early to mid 1970's, and was admitted as an error but the harm was already done before it was caught. As everyone knows it is almost impossible to get rid of errors. Shirley Pace Graham In a message dated 4/20/2010 6:57:46 P.M. Central Daylight Time, LPace1943@comcast.net writes: Ancestory.com trees show Clarence Alexander Pace b. 11/24/1890, Osage, Benton Co., AR; d. 4/4/1949 Clovis, Curry Co, NM and John Harrison Pace b. 10/26/1872, Osage, Benton Co., AR: d. 6/16/1931, Roff, Pontotoc Co., OK are brothers and the sons of John Blackburn Pace b. 1/25/1846, Lawrence, Mo; d. 2/231923, Jefferson, OK Based on the trees this line goes back to Alsey Pace 1781-1815; and Sally Alice Stump. None of this proves any connection to John Pace b. Bentonville, AR Bentonville is in Benton Co, AR, and is the headquarters for Walmart. ============== http://www.arkansasgenealogy.com/benton/early_settlers.htm Early Settlers of Benton County, Arkansas In 1835 Christopher C. Pace and his son J. H. Pace, also from Tennessee, settled about six miles east of Maysville. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Pace&GSbyrel=in&GSdyre l=in&GSst=4&GScnty=96&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=48241468& Christopher S Pace Gravemarker I could not find a grave on Findagrave.com for Edmond Pace, b. 1810 Haywwod. Tn, d. 1874, Benton AR. He may be the father to John Blackburn Pace. Lots of Paces buried in Benton Co., AR Is their a connection between Christopher C Pace and Edmond Pace? Larry Pace GENEALOGY LPace1943@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Pace" <LPace1943@comcast.net> To: <pace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PACE] John Pace born Bentonville,Arkansas - Rough Rider - Spanish American War >I have some files on NM and the BLM records show several Pace records of > Land Patents which include two below, who may or may not be a possibility. What is the John Pace b. Bentonville, AR, middle initial, if he had one? > > http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ SEARCH BY STATE AND SURNAME, given > > PACE, JOHN H NM Curry 5/26/1910 Tucumcari 012274 132627 > > PACE, CLARENCE A NM Curry 5/26/1910 Tucumcari 06737 132585 Congress admitted New Mexico as the 47th state in the Union on January 6, > 1912, after years of being first a Mexican Province then an American > Territory. Census for 1920 and 1930 may help. 1910 census it would be a Territory My lists did not show a John Pace for any census, 1920 or 1930, but that > proves nothing. 1930 census notes: > C Alex Pace 59, b. 1870 Arkansas, Head, White, Field, Curry, NM > > Note C Alex Pace was b. Arkansas, which is a clue to his origin, but > doesn't > say who John H. Pace is in relation to him. More work to do Larry Pace > GENEALOGY > LPace1943@comcast.net ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ancestory.com trees show Clarence Alexander Pace b. 11/24/1890, Osage, Benton Co., AR; d. 4/4/1949 Clovis, Curry Co, NM and John Harrison Pace b. 10/26/1872, Osage, Benton Co., AR: d. 6/16/1931, Roff, Pontotoc Co., OK are brothers and the sons of John Blackburn Pace b. 1/25/1846, Lawrence, Mo; d. 2/231923, Jefferson, OK Based on the trees this line goes back to Alsey Pace 1781-1815; and Sally Alice Stump. None of this proves any connection to John Pace b. Bentonville, AR Bentonville is in Benton Co, AR, and is the headquarters for Walmart. ============== http://www.arkansasgenealogy.com/benton/early_settlers.htm Early Settlers of Benton County, Arkansas In 1835 Christopher C. Pace and his son J. H. Pace, also from Tennessee, settled about six miles east of Maysville. http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Pace&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GSst=4&GScnty=96&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=48241468& Christopher S Pace Gravemarker I could not find a grave on Findagrave.com for Edmond Pace, b. 1810 Haywwod. Tn, d. 1874, Benton AR. He may be the father to John Blackburn Pace. Lots of Paces buried in Benton Co., AR Is their a connection between Christopher C Pace and Edmond Pace? Larry Pace GENEALOGY LPace1943@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Pace" <LPace1943@comcast.net> To: <pace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [PACE] John Pace born Bentonville,Arkansas - Rough Rider - Spanish American War >I have some files on NM and the BLM records show several Pace records of > Land Patents which include two below, who may or may not be a possibility. What is the John Pace b. Bentonville, AR, middle initial, if he had one? > > http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ SEARCH BY STATE AND SURNAME, given > > PACE, JOHN H NM Curry 5/26/1910 Tucumcari 012274 132627 > > PACE, CLARENCE A NM Curry 5/26/1910 Tucumcari 06737 132585 Congress admitted New Mexico as the 47th state in the Union on January 6, > 1912, after years of being first a Mexican Province then an American > Territory. Census for 1920 and 1930 may help. 1910 census it would be a Territory My lists did not show a John Pace for any census, 1920 or 1930, but that > proves nothing. 1930 census notes: > C Alex Pace 59, b. 1870 Arkansas, Head, White, Field, Curry, NM > > Note C Alex Pace was b. Arkansas, which is a clue to his origin, but > doesn't > say who John H. Pace is in relation to him. More work to do Larry Pace > GENEALOGY > LPace1943@comcast.net

I looked at the records and figured out he would have been born in 1875. I then went to my own ancestry to see if he might be descended from one of my Pace ancestors since my Paces were in Tipton County, TN up against the Mississippi River by 1830s. I thought there might have been a brother of one of my Paces who could have moved on across the river to Arkansas, but I didn't find anyone. My line--Pace only: =My grandmother was Hautia Earl Pace, 1891-1973- born and died in Tipton County, TN (she married Bishop Eric Edmond Glass, my grandfather) =My great grandfather was William Jefferson Pace, 1860-1916, born and died in Tipton County, TN =My great great grandfather was John Wiley Pace, 1839-1865, born and died in Tipton County, TN None of those dates would fit the timing of John's birth in Arkansas. And, yes, I do go on back to Immigrant Richard. Beth Glass ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rebecca Christensen" <rchristen@sbcglobal.net> To: <pace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 10:40 PM Subject: [PACE] John Pace born Bentonville Arkansas - Rough Rider - SpanishAmerican War Well, that didn't work very well! Here's another copy without all the "garbage." The digital images won't come through on this e-mail, but the link to the description page on NARA should. I believe the link takes you to this page: http://arcweb.archives.gov/arc/action/ExternalIdSearch?id=301239 where you can click on the tab "Digital Copies" under the description of the file (not the top "digital copies" tab which takes you to a search box) and see the pages of this John Pace's file. I don't know who this John Pace was, but stumbled across this record and thought someone might be interested in it. Rebecca Christensen ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have some files on NM and the BLM records show several Pace records of Land Patents which include two below, who may or may not be a possibility. What is the John Pace b. Bentonville, AR, middle initial, if he had one? http://www.glorecords.blm.gov/ SEARCH BY STATE AND SURNAME, given PACE, JOHN H NM Curry 5/26/1910 Tucumcari 012274 132627 PACE, CLARENCE A NM Curry 5/26/1910 Tucumcari 06737 132585 Congress admitted New Mexico as the 47th state in the Union on January 6, 1912, after years of being first a Mexican Province then an American Territory. Census for 1920 and 1930 may help. 1910 census it would be a Territory My lists did not show a John Pace for any census, 1920 or 1930, but that proves nothing. 1930 census notes: C Alex Pace 59, b. 1870 Arkansas, Head, White, Field, Curry, NM Note C Alex Pace was b. Arkansas, which is a clue to his origin, but doesn't say who John H. Pace is in relation to him. More work to do Larry Pace GENEALOGY LPace1943@comcast.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kim Stracener Zapalac" <zapnyou@aol.com> To: <pace@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [PACE] John Pace born Bentonville,Arkansas - Rough Rider - Spanish American War > Rebecca, Great find and very interesting! I loved the part where it asked his occupation and he said, "cowboy." And at the time he joined, he was living in New Mexico. It was also interesting how he was described with a dark complexion, blue eyes, and light brown hair. He must have been a striking young man! It also says he had his training in San Antonio, Texas and was issued a pension for his service in 1921. It looks like he died after 1930. What adventures he must have had! > He may be the grandson of Christopher & Marie/Maria Pace - born in > Tennessee (census 1880, Bentonville, Arkansas). But there are other > possibilities too. Kim On Apr 19, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Rebecca Christensen wrote: The digital images won't come through on this e-mail, but the link to the description page on NARA should. I believe the link takes you to this page: http://arcweb.archives.gov/arc/action/ExternalIdSearch?id=301239

Rebecca, Great find and very interesting! I loved the part where it asked his occupation and he said, "cowboy." And at the time he joined, he was living in New Mexico. It was also interesting how he was described with a dark complexion, blue eyes, and light brown hair. He must have been a striking young man! It also says he had his training in San Antonio, Texas and was issued a pension for his service in 1921. It looks like he died after 1930. What adventures he must have had! He may be the grandson of Christopher & Marie/Maria Pace - born in Tennessee (census 1880, Bentonville, Arkansas). But there are other possibilities too. Kim On Apr 19, 2010, at 9:37 PM, Rebecca Christensen wrote: > The digital images won't come through on this e-mail, but the link to the description page on NARA should. I believe the link takes you to this page: > > http://arcweb.archives.gov/arc/action/ExternalIdSearch?id=301239 > > where you can click on the tab "Digital Copies" under the description of the file (not the top "digital copies" tab which takes you to a search box) and see the pages of this John Pace's file. > > I don't know who this John Pace was, but stumbled across this record and thought someone might be interested in it. > > Rebecca Christensen > > --- On Mon, 4/19/10, arcmail@nara.gov <arcmail@nara.gov> wrote: > > From: arcmail@nara.gov <arcmail@nara.gov> > Subject: Search results from ARC@nara.gov have been sent to you > To: "rchristen@sbcglobal.net" <rchristen@sbcglobal.net> > Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 9:32 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > ARC - Archival Descriptions Search - Email Results > > > > > > > > > #yiv797430585 > { > font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;text-align:justify;font-size:0.8em;margin:0px;padding:10px;} > > #yiv797430585 .smallOption > { > display:none;} > > #yiv797430585 a > { > text-decoration:underline;color:#0000FF; > } > > #yiv797430585 img > { > visibility:hidden;} > > #yiv797430585 img.visi, #yiv797430585 .largeAlert img > { > visibility:visible;} > > #yiv797430585 td > { > background-image:none; > } > > > #yiv797430585 .sFC > { > font-size:1.4em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:100%;background-color:#FCFCFC;margin-bottom:1em;} > > > #yiv797430585 > #yiv797430585 .sFCextra, #yiv797430585 a .sFCextra { > font-size:0.9em;} > > > #yiv797430585 h2 > { > font-size:1.25em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;background-color:#FCFCFC;} > > > #yiv797430585 h1.pageTitle > { > font-size:1.4em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;text-align:center;display:none;} > > > #yiv797430585 .details > { > width:100%;} > > #yiv797430585 .details th > { > width:20%;text-align:left;vertical-align:top;} > > #yiv797430585 .details td > { > text-align:left;vertical-align:top;} > > #yiv797430585 .largeAlert > { > font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;padding:1em;width:80%;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:#FFFF99;color:#CC0000;font-size:0.8em;border:1px solid #990000;margin:0.5em auto 1.5em auto;vertical-align:middle;font-weight:bold;} > > #yiv797430585 .hierButtons > { > display:none;} > > #yiv797430585 #footer > { > font-size:0.85em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;text-align:center;margin-bottom:1em;} > > #yiv797430585 .matType > { > font-style:italic;} > > > #yiv797430585 hr > { > margin:0.5em 0;} > > > #yiv797430585 h1 > { > text-align:center;font-size:160%;text-decoration:underline;} > > #yiv797430585 h1 strong > { > font-size:110%;} > > #yiv797430585 .floatcon:after > { > clear:both;display:block;height:0px;overflow:hidden;visibility:hidden;} > > #yiv797430585 .floatcon > { > display:inline-table;} > > #yiv797430585 > #yiv797430585 * html .floatcon{height:1%;} > #yiv797430585 .floatcon{display:block;} > #yiv797430585 > > #yiv797430585 .container2 { > float:left;margin:0.2em;clear:none;width:210px;height:275px;} > > #yiv797430585 .frame { > padding-right:0.5em; > padding-left:0.5em; > padding-bottom:0.5em; > padding-top:0.5em;} > > #yiv797430585 .mmPic { > text-align:center;} > > #yiv797430585 .thumbTxt { > text-align:center;} > > #yiv797430585 p > { > margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0.4em;} > > > > > > U.S. > NATIONAL > ARCHIVES & > RECORDS > ADMINISTRATION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 > > > result > > > > > > > > > > 1 > > > > > > Compiled military service record of John Pace, documenting service in the 1st U. S. Volunteer Cavalry (Rough Riders) during the Spanish American War., 05/01/1898 - 09/30/1898 > > > ARC Identifier 301239 / MLR Number PI-17 522 > > Textual Records from the War Department. The Adjutant General's Office. (03/04/1907 - 09/18/1947) > > Archives I Reference Section, Textual Archives Services Division, Washington, DC > > > Item from Record Group 94: Records of the Adjutant General's Office, 1762 - 1984 > > > > > > > > > > > > Digital Copies > > Digital Object(s) 1 - 8 of 8 > > > > 1 > > > > > > COVER, Jacket cover. > Digital Copy (118k) > > > > 2 > > > > > > INSIDECOVER, Inside of jacket cover. > Digital Copy (119k) > > > > 3 > > > > > > 1, Record card. > Digital Copy (43k) > > > > 4 > > > > > > 2, Record card. > Digital Copy (37k) > > > > 5 > > > > > > 3, Record card. > Digital Copy (36k) > > > > 6 > > > > > > 4, Record card. > Digital Copy (29k) > > > > 7 > > > > > > 5, Record card. > Digital Copy (42k) > > > > 8 > > > > > > 6, Record card. > Digital Copy (46k) > > > Archives I Reference Section, Textual Archives Services Division (NWCT1R), National Archives Building, 7th and Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC, 20408. PHONE: 202-357-5385; FAX: 202-357-5936; EMAIL: Archives1reference@nara.gov. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > THE ARCHIVAL RESEARCH CATALOG > > > U.S. National Archives & Records Administration > > > 8601 Adelphi Road > > > College Park, MD 20740 > > Please note: DO NOT REPLY to this message. > This email message was sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming email. > > > For questions about SEARCHING the Archival Research Catalog, contact: > ARC@nara.gov > > > For questions about RESEARCH and records at the National Archives, contact > Inquire@nara.gov > > > DISCLAIMER: > > > The catalog records included in this email message were provided by a researcher using the National Archives > Archival Research Catalog (ARC). Researchers accessing the online holdings of the National Archives and > Records Administration are solely responsible for the legal implications of their activities, such as > copying, uploading or downloading files, and/or posting electronic mail. The National Archives will not > assume or accept liability for any violations of these conditions by researchers. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well, that didn't work very well!   Here's another copy without all the "garbage." The digital images won't come through on this e-mail, but the link to the description page on NARA should.   I believe the link takes you to this page: http://arcweb.archives.gov/arc/action/ExternalIdSearch?id=301239 where you can click on the tab "Digital Copies" under the description of the file (not the top "digital copies" tab which takes you to a search box) and see the pages of this John Pace's file. I don't know who this John Pace was, but stumbled across this record and thought someone might be interested in it. Rebecca Christensen

The digital images won't come through on this e-mail, but the link to the description page on NARA should.   I believe the link takes you to this page: http://arcweb.archives.gov/arc/action/ExternalIdSearch?id=301239 where you can click on the tab "Digital Copies" under the description of the file (not the top "digital copies" tab which takes you to a search box) and see the pages of this John Pace's file. I don't know who this John Pace was, but stumbled across this record and thought someone might be interested in it. Rebecca Christensen --- On Mon, 4/19/10, arcmail@nara.gov <arcmail@nara.gov> wrote: From: arcmail@nara.gov <arcmail@nara.gov> Subject: Search results from ARC@nara.gov have been sent to you To: "rchristen@sbcglobal.net" <rchristen@sbcglobal.net> Date: Monday, April 19, 2010, 9:32 PM ARC - Archival Descriptions Search - Email Results #yiv797430585 { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;text-align:justify;font-size:0.8em;margin:0px;padding:10px;} #yiv797430585 .smallOption { display:none;} #yiv797430585 a { text-decoration:underline;color:#0000FF; } #yiv797430585 img { visibility:hidden;} #yiv797430585 img.visi, #yiv797430585 .largeAlert img { visibility:visible;} #yiv797430585 td { background-image:none; } #yiv797430585 .sFC { font-size:1.4em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;width:100%;background-color:#FCFCFC;margin-bottom:1em;} #yiv797430585 #yiv797430585 .sFCextra, #yiv797430585 a .sFCextra { font-size:0.9em;} #yiv797430585 h2 { font-size:1.25em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;background-color:#FCFCFC;} #yiv797430585 h1.pageTitle { font-size:1.4em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;text-align:center;display:none;} #yiv797430585 .details { width:100%;} #yiv797430585 .details th { width:20%;text-align:left;vertical-align:top;} #yiv797430585 .details td { text-align:left;vertical-align:top;} #yiv797430585 .largeAlert { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;padding:1em;width:80%;border-collapse:collapse;background-color:#FFFF99;color:#CC0000;font-size:0.8em;border:1px solid #990000;margin:0.5em auto 1.5em auto;vertical-align:middle;font-weight:bold;} #yiv797430585 .hierButtons { display:none;} #yiv797430585 #footer { font-size:0.85em;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;text-align:center;margin-bottom:1em;} #yiv797430585 .matType { font-style:italic;} #yiv797430585 hr { margin:0.5em 0;} #yiv797430585 h1 { text-align:center;font-size:160%;text-decoration:underline;} #yiv797430585 h1 strong { font-size:110%;} #yiv797430585 .floatcon:after { clear:both;display:block;height:0px;overflow:hidden;visibility:hidden;} #yiv797430585 .floatcon { display:inline-table;} #yiv797430585 #yiv797430585 * html .floatcon{height:1%;} #yiv797430585 .floatcon{display:block;} #yiv797430585 #yiv797430585 .container2 { float:left;margin:0.2em;clear:none;width:210px;height:275px;} #yiv797430585 .frame { padding-right:0.5em; padding-left:0.5em; padding-bottom:0.5em; padding-top:0.5em;} #yiv797430585 .mmPic { text-align:center;} #yiv797430585 .thumbTxt { text-align:center;} #yiv797430585 p { margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0.4em;} U.S. NATIONAL ARCHIVES & RECORDS ADMINISTRATION 1 result 1 Compiled military service record of John Pace, documenting service in the 1st U. S. Volunteer Cavalry (Rough Riders) during the Spanish American War., 05/01/1898 - 09/30/1898 ARC Identifier 301239 / MLR Number PI-17 522 Textual Records from the War Department. The Adjutant General's Office. (03/04/1907 - 09/18/1947) Archives I Reference Section, Textual Archives Services Division, Washington, DC Item from Record Group 94: Records of the Adjutant General's Office, 1762 - 1984   Digital Copies Digital Object(s) 1 - 8 of 8 1 COVER, Jacket cover. Digital Copy (118k) 2 INSIDECOVER, Inside of jacket cover. Digital Copy (119k) 3 1, Record card. Digital Copy (43k) 4 2, Record card. Digital Copy (37k) 5 3, Record card. Digital Copy (36k) 6 4, Record card. Digital Copy (29k) 7 5, Record card. Digital Copy (42k) 8 6, Record card. Digital Copy (46k) Archives I Reference Section, Textual Archives Services Division (NWCT1R), National Archives Building, 7th and Pennsylvania Avenue NW, Washington, DC, 20408. PHONE: 202-357-5385; FAX: 202-357-5936; EMAIL: Archives1reference@nara.gov. THE ARCHIVAL RESEARCH CATALOG U.S. National Archives & Records Administration 8601 Adelphi Road College Park, MD 20740 Please note: DO NOT REPLY to this message. This email message was sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming email. For questions about SEARCHING the Archival Research Catalog, contact: ARC@nara.gov For questions about RESEARCH and records at the National Archives, contact Inquire@nara.gov DISCLAIMER: The catalog records included in this email message were provided by a researcher using the National Archives Archival Research Catalog (ARC). Researchers accessing the online holdings of the National Archives and Records Administration are solely responsible for the legal implications of their activities, such as copying, uploading or downloading files, and/or posting electronic mail. The National Archives will not assume or accept liability for any violations of these conditions by researchers.

I also found this information: A Richard Pace, in 1591 held a close in West Ham, across the river Lea from Wapping (where Richard of Jamestown lived) and Stepney (where he was married). A "close" is a short street leading to a building of note, such as an abbey or manor, with the buildings on both sides. The close was called "Wellfield" and was in the Abbey Marsh section of West Ham. Richard of Wapping/Jamestown was possibly born ca 1585. Roy Johnson -----Original Message----- From: pace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:pace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of James Pace Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 11:43 AM To: PACE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PACE] Gleanings from Jervis Wegg I have gathered some pertinent facts presented by Jervis Wegg in his book* which concern Richard and his brother John Pace. Most of this information appears elsewhere. I have organized this material, and made comments, in order, I hope, to clarify some relationships. Wegg places the family of Richard Pace in either Hampshire or London, particularly Stepney. He does accept the premise that Richard’s brother was John and that their father, John, Sr., was from Leicestershire. A John is mentioned in the following quote: “filing a law suit action brought by John Pace in 1501, on behalf of the Dudley family, Henry’s VII notorious minister.** ” The year 1501 is too early for brother John to be active in a law court, in as much as this John would have to be a seasoned lawyer, the Dudley family being so prominent. So if this is the father of Richard and John, then it is the first mention of his occupation, and provides a possible explanation for his removal to Hampshire from Leicestershire. Lawyers are likely to follow job opportunities. A John Pace was groom of the King’s chamber in November of 1509. This John was most certainly not the father, but brother John. This was the court of King Henry VIII, most likely, Henry VII having died in April of that year. The location was London, of course. To again quote Wegg, a “certain John Pace of Stepney, Middlesex, was admitted to King’s College, Cambridge, in 1539, at the age of seventeen, coming up from Eton, to be made a fellow in 1542, and to become the King’s jester later on.” Thus he was born abt. 1522 and “was of Stepney.” This John Pace became a jester in the King’s Court. Wegg coyly notes that he was born while Richard was in Italy, so it is reasonable to attribute him to brother John. Richard, according to Wegg, had a house in ‘London,’ probably in Stepney, as he was Vicar of Stepney. While in Italy, brother John seems to have managed Richard’s household affairs. In Sept. 1527, about the time of Richard’s return from Italy, John presented an accounting of debts and expenses, apparently incurred during the time he was managing Richard’s affairs. This would place John in London. Since John’s son was of Stepney, it also adds to the probability that Richard’s residence was in Stepney. Richard’s private life is largely unknown. His correspondence with women is scant. However, he did correspond with “Queen Catherine, with some ladies at a fête in Venice, and with his sister-in-law.” Wegg also mentions a letter to a Lady Darcy.*** But there does seem to be information on brother John’s wife in Richard’s letters. Wegg cites “L. and P. .... Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, vol. i.” If her family can be identified through a search of Richard’s papers, it would certainly be helpful. A strong family connection would provide a background for the advancement of John’s son into the household of the Duke of Norfolk and the Queen. Regarding brother John’s children, here is another quote from Wegg. In 1527, while Richard was in Hampshire, he wrote, “I command you immediately upon the sight hereof, to repair to me hither, with all my servants, as many [as] will come; and bring with you also your wife and children, one maid to wait upon her, leaving the other to keep your house.” This appears to be the source of the statement that John had a family with more than one child. Summarizing, we have Richard and brother John, as well as his son John, in Stepney. This, of course, is where our Richard and Isabella Smythe were married. *Jervis Wegg, “Richard Pace — A Tudor Diplomatist,” Barnes & Noble, Inc., New York, 1971, reprint of 1932, ed. **Edmund Dudley was a minister in the reign of Henry VII. He was a grandson of John Sutton. 1st Baron Dudley. His family was situated in Sussex. Upon the death of Henry VII in 1509, Dudley became expendable. Henry VIII began cleaning house. Dudley was found guilty of treason and suffered the penalty. *** Wegg also adds “but we are set wondering by Erasmus’ reference to JND@*\F4", and possibly by his application for a sinecure for a Venetian woman’s bastard. It would be unfair, unpleasant, and ridiculous to found a theory on such trifles, but they remind us that we know little of his private life.” In those days, there was no institution like the “Weekly Inquirer.” Wegg let the matter stand there. Wegg didn’t translate the Greek, but it would be nice to know what Erasmus of Rotterdam meant by it. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

   I have gathered some pertinent facts presented by Jervis Wegg in his book* which concern Richard and his brother John Pace. Most of this information appears elsewhere. I have organized this material, and made comments, in order, I hope, to clarify some relationships.   Wegg places the family of Richard Pace in either Hampshire or London, particularly Stepney. He does accept the premise that Richard’s brother was John and that their father, John, Sr., was from Leicestershire. A John is mentioned in the following quote: “filing a law suit action brought by John Pace in 1501, on behalf of the Dudley family, Henry’s VII notorious minister.** ” The year 1501 is too early for brother John to be active in a law court, in as much as this John would have to be a seasoned lawyer, the Dudley family being so prominent. So if this is the father of Richard and John, then it is the first mention of his occupation, and provides a possible explanation for his removal to Hampshire from Leicestershire. Lawyers are likely to follow job opportunities.   A John Pace was groom of the King’s chamber in November of 1509. This John was most certainly not the father, but brother John. This was the court of King Henry VIII, most likely, Henry VII having died in April of that year. The location was London, of course.   To again quote Wegg, a “certain John Pace of Stepney, Middlesex, was admitted to King’s College, Cambridge, in 1539, at the age of seventeen, coming up from Eton, to be made a fellow in 1542, and to become the King’s jester later on.” Thus he was born abt. 1522 and “was of Stepney.” This John Pace became a jester in the King’s Court. Wegg coyly notes that he was born while Richard was in Italy, so it is reasonable to attribute him to brother John.    Richard, according to Wegg, had a house in ‘London,’ probably in Stepney, as he was Vicar of Stepney. While in Italy, brother John seems to have managed Richard’s household affairs. In Sept. 1527, about the time of Richard’s return from Italy, John presented an accounting of debts and expenses, apparently incurred during the time he was managing Richard’s affairs. This would place John in London. Since John’s son was of Stepney, it also adds to the probability that Richard’s residence was in Stepney.   Richard’s private life is largely unknown. His correspondence with women is scant. However, he did correspond with “Queen Catherine, with some ladies at a fête in Venice, and with his sister-in-law.” Wegg also mentions a letter to a Lady Darcy.*** But there does seem to be information on brother John’s wife in Richard’s letters. Wegg cites “L. and P. .... Letters and Papers, Foreign and Domestic, Henry VIII, vol. i.” If her family can be identified through a search of Richard’s papers, it would certainly be helpful. A strong family connection would provide a background for the advancement of John’s son into the household of the Duke of Norfolk and the Queen.   Regarding brother John’s children, here is another quote from Wegg. In 1527, while Richard was in Hampshire, he wrote, “I command you immediately upon the sight hereof, to repair to me hither, with all my servants, as  many [as] will come; and bring with you also your wife and children, one maid to wait upon her, leaving the other to keep your house.” This appears to be the source of the statement that John had a family with more than one child.   Summarizing, we have Richard and brother John, as well as his son John, in Stepney. This, of course, is where our Richard and Isabella Smythe were married.         *Jervis Wegg, “Richard Pace — A Tudor Diplomatist,” Barnes & Noble, Inc., New York, 1971, reprint of 1932, ed.   **Edmund Dudley was a minister in the reign of Henry VII. He was a grandson of John Sutton. 1st Baron Dudley. His family was situated in Sussex. Upon the death of Henry VII in 1509, Dudley became expendable. Henry VIII began cleaning house. Dudley was found guilty of treason and suffered the penalty.   *** Wegg also adds “but  we are set wondering by Erasmus’ reference to JND@*\F4", and possibly by his application for a sinecure for a Venetian woman’s bastard. It would be unfair, unpleasant, and ridiculous to found a theory on such trifles, but they remind us that we know little of his private life.” In those days, there was no institution like the “Weekly Inquirer.” Wegg let the matter stand there. Wegg didn’t translate the Greek, but it would be nice to know what Erasmus of Rotterdam meant by it.

Pace is also Italian, where the Pace surname apparently originated independently of the English Pace surname. It is pronounced Pah-chee in Italian. I have a picture from the Leaning Tower of the name "Pace" in white letters on a distant hillside. It means "peace" in Italian as it did in Latin so the inscription on the hillside was a call for peace, not the surname. There was a speculative hint that I came across once that MIGHT link the two surnames. An Italian correspondent felt that the surname originated in the Norman-ruled parts of Italy, and we know that the Normans conquered England in 1066. An article in a Pace bulletin cited a document found at York Minster in Yorkshire stating that the Pace name came over with the Normans, However, I believe the Pace surname in the Midlands did not have Norman origins. These are just impressions that I formed and totally speculative. The Pace Network has an article on the Pace name, which needs updating as Gordon had not fully traced his ancestry at that time. The article says, among other things: "This distinguished Norman family originated with the Sire of Pace in Pacy Su Eure at Evreux in Normandy." That town does exist, but later research shows that this article originated from an outfit called the "House of Names" which has been noted for sloppy research, and no source evidence was shown for the above conclusion and others. Several factual errors were clear in the document. To read the Pace Network page on this, go to http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~pace/ and scroll down and click on "The Ancient History of the Distinguished Surname Pace" Roy Johnson -----Original Message----- From: pace-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:pace-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Keith Lester Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 7:58 AM To: gtp3066@nexicom.net; pace@rootsweb.com Cc: 'Clarinda Pace'; 'Julian Pace'; 'Tanya Pace-Crosschild'; 'Dianne Wiltshire'; mnholding@shaw.ca; 'Robyn Pace'; 'Tom Pace'; 'Pat Anderson'; 'Lionel Young'; 'Darrell Pace'; 'Franne'; 'marj charman'; 'A.L. Dodsworth'; 'Ellen Cadman'; 'Al Pace'; 'Kate Cole'; 'Betty A Pace' Subject: Re: [PACE] Easter and Pace Eggs Thanks Gord for all your emails. I realised a long time ago that the latin 'pace' means 'peace'. I suppose it is quite an honour to belong to a family of peace in this turbulent world. A lot to live up to! Keith -----Original Message----- From: gtp3066@nexicom.net [mailto:gtp3066@nexicom.net] Sent: 04 April 2010 19:01 To: pace@rootsweb.com Cc: A.L. Dodsworth; Franne; Keith Lester; Dianne Wiltshire; mnholding@shaw.ca; Al Pace; Robyn Pace; Betty A Pace; Clarinda Pace; Tanya Pace-Crosschild; Tom Pace; Pat Anderson; Darrell Pace; Antony Pace; Julian Pace; Ellen Cadman; marj charman; Kate Cole; Lionel Young Subject: Easter and Pace Eggs "Getting on the Band Wagon" in the UK Pace Egging: A Lancashire Tradition by John Ravenscroft http://www.timetravel-britain.com/columns/traditions/traditions02.shtml When I first heard the term Pace Egging I thought it probably had something to do with drunken villagers rolling eggs down steep English hillsides -- we Brits do things like that with all kinds of items, including cheeses, barrels of beer and significant others -- but I was wrong. Apparently the word "Pace" is nothing to do with the relative speeds of competitive egg-rollers. The truth is far more mundane. "Pace" comes from the Latin "Pacha" which means Easter, and Pace Egging is just one more of our many and varied Easter Traditions. Pace Egging Today Pace Egging Although it was noted as early as 1842 that the Pace Egging Play was being performed less and less frequently, the revival of interest in English folk customs after the Second World War helped to rekindle enthusiasm. http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Bury2002.htm Bury Pace Eggers outside the Victoria Hotel, Walshaw Bury Pace Eggers' collector in traditional Costume, Easter 2002 (Photo: Catherine Pearce) - I wonder - the DNA of males in her family. Bury Pace Eggers circle round as they sing their song, Ramsbottom Market, 23rd March 2002 (Photo: Francis Roe) Pace Eggers, Easter 2002 - Heptonstall, West Yorkshire http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Heptonstall2002.htm "The Fight - another fight - Singing to the Crowd" http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Midgley2002.htm Pace Eggers, Easter 2002 - Midgley, West Yorkshire Boys from Calder Valley High School perform the Midgley Pace Egg Play at Weavers Square, Heptonstall, Good Friday 2002 Midgley Pace Eggers 1932. http://www.folkplay.info/Forum/TD_Forum_11_Midgley.htm ABOUT THE PLAY - Eddie Cass One thing which was said stuck in my mind. St George, who was 10 at the time, still recalled after all these years, his feeling that he was the Christian hero defending Christendom from the infidel Turks. The infidel Turks, Slasher, Black Prince of Paradine, Hector were all of 12! What he couldn't tell me was the source of that feeling, who suggested that the play had an origin in the Crusades. That idea was certainly part of the theoretical views expressed on the play by Frank Marsden. Eddie Cass ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Gord for all your emails. I realised a long time ago that the latin 'pace' means 'peace'. I suppose it is quite an honour to belong to a family of peace in this turbulent world. A lot to live up to! Keith -----Original Message----- From: gtp3066@nexicom.net [mailto:gtp3066@nexicom.net] Sent: 04 April 2010 19:01 To: pace@rootsweb.com Cc: A.L. Dodsworth; Franne; Keith Lester; Dianne Wiltshire; mnholding@shaw.ca; Al Pace; Robyn Pace; Betty A Pace; Clarinda Pace; Tanya Pace-Crosschild; Tom Pace; Pat Anderson; Darrell Pace; Antony Pace; Julian Pace; Ellen Cadman; marj charman; Kate Cole; Lionel Young Subject: Easter and Pace Eggs "Getting on the Band Wagon" in the UK Pace Egging: A Lancashire Tradition by John Ravenscroft http://www.timetravel-britain.com/columns/traditions/traditions02.shtml When I first heard the term Pace Egging I thought it probably had something to do with drunken villagers rolling eggs down steep English hillsides -- we Brits do things like that with all kinds of items, including cheeses, barrels of beer and significant others -- but I was wrong. Apparently the word "Pace" is nothing to do with the relative speeds of competitive egg-rollers. The truth is far more mundane. "Pace" comes from the Latin "Pacha" which means Easter, and Pace Egging is just one more of our many and varied Easter Traditions. Pace Egging Today Pace Egging Although it was noted as early as 1842 that the Pace Egging Play was being performed less and less frequently, the revival of interest in English folk customs after the Second World War helped to rekindle enthusiasm. http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Bury2002.htm Bury Pace Eggers outside the Victoria Hotel, Walshaw Bury Pace Eggers' collector in traditional Costume, Easter 2002 (Photo: Catherine Pearce) - I wonder - the DNA of males in her family. Bury Pace Eggers circle round as they sing their song, Ramsbottom Market, 23rd March 2002 (Photo: Francis Roe) Pace Eggers, Easter 2002 - Heptonstall, West Yorkshire http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Heptonstall2002.htm "The Fight - another fight - Singing to the Crowd" http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Midgley2002.htm Pace Eggers, Easter 2002 - Midgley, West Yorkshire Boys from Calder Valley High School perform the Midgley Pace Egg Play at Weavers Square, Heptonstall, Good Friday 2002 Midgley Pace Eggers 1932. http://www.folkplay.info/Forum/TD_Forum_11_Midgley.htm ABOUT THE PLAY - Eddie Cass One thing which was said stuck in my mind. St George, who was 10 at the time, still recalled after all these years, his feeling that he was the Christian hero defending Christendom from the infidel Turks. The infidel Turks, Slasher, Black Prince of Paradine, Hector were all of 12! What he couldn't tell me was the source of that feeling, who suggested that the play had an origin in the Crusades. That idea was certainly part of the theoretical views expressed on the play by Frank Marsden. Eddie Cass

"Getting on the Band Wagon" in the UK Pace Egging: A Lancashire Tradition by John Ravenscroft http://www.timetravel-britain.com/columns/traditions/traditions02.shtml When I first heard the term Pace Egging I thought it probably had something to do with drunken villagers rolling eggs down steep English hillsides -- we Brits do things like that with all kinds of items, including cheeses, barrels of beer and significant others -- but I was wrong. Apparently the word "Pace" is nothing to do with the relative speeds of competitive egg-rollers. The truth is far more mundane. "Pace" comes from the Latin "Pacha" which means Easter, and Pace Egging is just one more of our many and varied Easter Traditions. Pace Egging Today Pace Egging Although it was noted as early as 1842 that the Pace Egging Play was being performed less and less frequently, the revival of interest in English folk customs after the Second World War helped to rekindle enthusiasm. http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Bury2002.htm Bury Pace Eggers outside the Victoria Hotel, Walshaw Bury Pace Eggers' collector in traditional Costume, Easter 2002 (Photo: Catherine Pearce) - I wonder - the DNA of males in her family. Bury Pace Eggers circle round as they sing their song, Ramsbottom Market, 23rd March 2002 (Photo: Francis Roe) Pace Eggers, Easter 2002 - Heptonstall, West Yorkshire http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Heptonstall2002.htm "The Fight - another fight - Singing to the Crowd" http://www.folkplay.info/Gallery/Midgley2002.htm Pace Eggers, Easter 2002 - Midgley, West Yorkshire Boys from Calder Valley High School perform the Midgley Pace Egg Play at Weavers Square, Heptonstall, Good Friday 2002 Midgley Pace Eggers 1932. http://www.folkplay.info/Forum/TD_Forum_11_Midgley.htm ABOUT THE PLAY - Eddie Cass One thing which was said stuck in my mind. St George, who was 10 at the time, still recalled after all these years, his feeling that he was the Christian hero defending Christendom from the infidel Turks. The infidel Turks, Slasher, Black Prince of Paradine, Hector were all of 12! What he couldn't tell me was the source of that feeling, who suggested that the play had an origin in the Crusades. That idea was certainly part of the theoretical views expressed on the play by Frank Marsden. Eddie Cass

In 1538, Beaulieu went into hands of the Montague family, about five years after death and burial of Thomas Pace, the abbott, with Henry VIII's dissolution of the Monasteries. It's still with the Montague family today, a famous motorcycle and auto museum. I'm on their mailing list. http://www.dayoutwiththekids.co.uk/family-fun/Beaulieu/462 Beaulieu's steam power revival: http://www.wave105.com/Article.asp?id=1744243&spid=32354 Dissolution of the Monasteries: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/TUDmonasteries.htm says: In August 1535, Thomas Cromwell sent a team of officials to find out what was going on in the monasteries. After reading their reports Henry VIII decided to close down 376 monasteries. Monastery land was seized and sold off cheaply to nobles and merchants. They in turn sold some of the lands to smaller farmers. This process meant that a large number of people had good reason to support the monasteries being closed. Thomas Pace of Southampton, Holbury and Beaulieu c. 1500 - 1559 or later Notes from The Waterside Association (no references given) In 1533 the manor of Holbury, east of Beaulieu, and belonging to the Abbey, was leased to the Pace family. Thomas Pace of Southampton (there were Paces living in the Bitterne area of the town around 1500) may have been a nephew of Thomas Skevington, Abbot of Beaulieu and Bishop of Bangor. http://www.walesdirectory.co.uk/tourist-attractions/Cathedrals_and_Minsters/Wales7655.htm He was known in the Waterside area, having become Keeper of the Abbey’s Deer Park in 1521 and he became sole lessee of Holbury in 1537. After receiving legal training, he acted as an intermediary between Cardinal Wolsey and the Bishop of Bangor re: a Richard Pace, possibly another member of the family. Richard was a leading scholar used by Henry VIII in diplomatic missions, but had unfortunately become mentally ill and put in the Bishop’s care by Wolsey. Thomas Pace leased the manor of Cadland [S/E of Holbury and Beaulieu] in 1546, which was sold to his daughter Alice, wife of George Powlett, after the death of the owner, the 1st Earl of Southampton in 1550 (he also owned Beaulieu). He became a burgess of Southampton and owned a house in the town by 1550. Pace’s will, dated 10th September 1559, refers to his “new house at Holbury”, suggesting he carried out building work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitterne Bitterne derives its name, not from the similarly-named bird, the Bittern (as some believe) but from the bend in the River Itchen; the Old English words byht and ærn together mean "house near a bend", Your question: He could be the Thomas Pacy, father of Alice, if one allows for a change in the spelling of his name. Then the date of Alice’s birth and wedding licence would fit nicely into a genealogy. Seems answered in Waterside notes above: Thomas Pace leased the manor of Cadland [SE of Holbury and Beaulieu] in 1546, which was sold to his daughter Alice, wife of George Powlett, after the death of the owner, the 1st Earl of Southampton in 1550 (he also owned Beaulieu). He became a burgess of Southampton and owned a house in the town by 1550. Pace’s will, dated 10th September 1559, refers to his “new house at Holbury”, suggesting he carried out building work. The said Richard Pace, likely: Richard Pace Dean 1519-1524 On a brass plaque I had seen the brass plaque in St. Paul's (1965 visit to London - GTPace) It would be great if someone could take a photo of it for the Pace Society. Gord Pace in Ontario http://www.pacefamilyhistory.info/ ...working again

From the Archivist at Beaulieu, Hampshire: Susan Tomkins Heritage Education Officer and Archivist 09/01/2002 Thank you for your recent enquiry, which has been passed to me for reply. There are actually two men by the name of Thomas Pace connected with Beaulieu Abbey - one,Two the Abbot of Beaulieu (a Cistercian Monastery) and Bishop of Bangor, (Cathedral and University in north Wales) whom we refer to as Thomas Skevington, to make our life easier ! It was the Cistercian custom to name monks after their place of origin, in this case, Skeffington in Leicestershire. Another Thomas Pace, possibly his nephew, was involved in Beaulieu affairs from the 1520's. Attached below are two documents which give the information we have, with sources where known, on the two men. The two documents may be in the PACE Society's members' section. If not, I can send you the two documents. Gord Pace gtp3066@nexicom.net The ruined abbey of Beaulieu is the main connection with Thomas Skevington at Beaulieu today; although he is said to have been buried in the Church, no location has been found. There is however, a small reminder in the Lower Drawing Room of Palace House (one the Great Gatehouse to the Abbey) - during rebuilding work in the 1870's, the present Lord Montagu's grandfather and his architect, Sir Arthur Blomfield wanted to reflect the religious origins of the site and building and took the decision to include small stained glass shields in the windows. One of those chosen was Thomas Skevington's arms of the see of Bangor, seen to the right of the Beaulieu Abbey arms. <<Skevington.doc>> <<TPace.doc>> I hope the information is of interest to you and that you get the opportunity to visit Beaulieu one day. Yours sincerely, Susan Tomkins Heritage Education Officer and Archivist Disclaimer- This message is strictly private and contains confidential information intended only for the use of the person named above. If you have received this email in error please immediately advise postmaster@beaulieu.co.uk.Opinions expressed in this email are those of the individual only,and not neccessarily those of Beaulieu Estate, Montagu Ventures Ltd or associated organisations.

Have a note on this marriage from a visit to the Fluvanna County Courthouse years ago. William Pace m. Mattie Bethel May 12, 1873 Book 2, Page 19 here is a Bethel family on the 1870 census Palmyra, Fluvanna ,Virginia Post Office-Chapel Hill Elvira Bethal age 51 Martha Jane Bethel age 17 George E. Bethel age 16 Carlot Bethel age 13 Albert Bethel age 11 Robert Howard age 22 Mary Jane Howard age 22 Could this be the Mattie Bethel who married William Pace-Which William Pace?

                      I have been reading Jervis Wegg’s book, “Richard Pace — A Tudor Diplomatist.” Of immediate interest to me, was a quotation from a biography of Cardinal Wolsey by the English historian Prof. A. F. Pollard (1929). Pollard pointed out that at Richard Pace’s time, Pace should be considered a two syllable word — that is, the ‘e’ was not silent. Thus, when Thomas Cromwell referred to Richard as Richard Pacy or Pacey, he was using the phonetic spelling. Non-English speaking writers did the same, though perhaps with an accent thrown into the mix. The early pronunciation was lost as people referred to the written records.             It is possible that in the era of Richard Pace, relatives may have reverted to the Pacy spelling the family name. Thus, when looking for connections to said Richard, the search should be broadened to include Pacys.             While researching another matter, I ran across this. An Alice Pacy, daughter of Thomas Pacy, of Holberry in Hampshire, married George Poulet or Paulet, a grandson of William Paulet, 1st Marquis of Winchester. Their wedding license was granted in London in 1560. Sources give no further information regarding the identity of said Thomas Pacy. Based on the date of the wedding licence, a birth date of abt. 1540 might be appropriate for Alice.             According to Wegg, “the manor of Holbury, in Hampshire, was in the possession of the abbots of Beaulieu until the dissolution of the abbey, when it passed to a Thomas Pace, who was then steward to Peter Compton.” This Thomas Pace was probably the same Thomas in charge of an ailing Richard. Again according to Wegg, “The abbot asked Wolsey to reward a young relation of his own, who tended Pace in his illness, by giving him the Stewardship of the estates of Sir William Compton, of which Thomas Pace is found to be Steward.” On the whole, said Thomas did very well, indeed. Wegg mentions his wife, but does not give specifics.             Wegg mentions another Thomas Pace, who probably was not the same as the Thomas above, as he appears a little later. He could be the Thomas Pacy, father of Alice, if one allows for a change in the spelling of his name. Then the date of Alice’s birth and wedding licence would fit nicely into a genealogy.

She is listed on the ancestry of Rufus Williams Would anyone know more about her? She died abt . 1965 in Pa. Children were: Benjamin Williams b. 1807-Spotsylvania co Va Ruth Williams b. 1810- " " "" "" "" Peter Williams b. after 1813- " " " ' Esther Williams b. abt. 1820 in Virginia

Roy: A good argument and well done. But for every argument there is a blind side. There were many who was willing to accept Bruce Howard,s argument that John of Midd was a son of George who migrated from Prince George Co. to the Eastern Shore to become a carpenter due to the fact that Richard as oldest son inherited the land and John a younger son had to to make his own way. This was a story without any evidence. Please recall that I and a few others would not accept this as fact and without a great deal of possibility. Some where there are facts that will prove that John of Midd was John 1665 or otherwise it will be forever speculation. John of Midd. had to leave a location and turn up in another location along with some colloidal facts. The fact he was no longer in Shropshire area records does not prove he migrated to Colonial America. People usually moved in groups or were sent by some authority. Gordon has done a sterling job in getting his man from England to Canada but! the search is still on for the journey of John Pace of Middlesex. ---- Roy Johnson <Roy> wrote: > Re the recent dispute between Gordon W Pace and Jack Pace about John of > Misslesex: > > The crux of the matter: > > Gordon accepts the strong circumstantial evidence that John of M is John b. > 1665 Shropshire > > Jack will accept nothing but documentary evidence and accepts only "proven" > or "unproven" nothing between. > > I will argue that John of M was PROBABLY John of Shropshire but a bit short > of PROVEN. > > Some of my philosophy: > > Nothing is "proven beyond a shadow of a doubt" in law or genealogy. In law a > person must be "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" and DNA evidence has > released numerous prisoners so deemed by juries earlier. True also in > genealogy. Say a family raises the child of a Pace relative as their own, > includes him in census records, wills, etc. All of the documentation would > "prove" that he was a son of that father, and the DNA would likely also > match-and all would be wrong. > > But there are more categories than "proven" or "uproven." Here we can also > go to law. In criminal cases it is "proven beyond reasonable doubt." In > civil cases "preponderance of evidence" is the criteria. We could also use > that as a degree below "Proven" - say, Probable -- rather than taking the > absolutes. > > Now let's look at the different views and the data: > > First, Jack said: > > "Do you now contend that the Eastern Shore Paces came to America from > Shropshire." > > Well, John of M most certainly did: Reasoning: > > Gordon T Pace has proven Shropshire ancestry > Gordon matches 36/37 with the modal for John of M's descendents > Therefore John of M has Shropshire ancestry. > > If this is not true, then DNA is useless. > > In addition, I have somewhere (can't find it now) a letter by a John of M > descendent-I think 1900s-stating that John passed down the information that > he was from Wales. Another Pace line has an oral history stating the same. > The area of Shropshire where the records are found was once part of Wales. > > But DNA cannot tell us WHICH common ancestor. Let's look at those records: > > Gordon W said: > > "Gordon Thomas Pace.has provided convincing circumstantial evidence that > John of Middlesex was b. in 1665 in Shropshire, a son of Joseph and Margaret > Pace (or Pacey). This has been confirmed by the results of many DNA tests." > > But first we have to show that John 1665 was a relative of Gordon T. Pace's > ancestor for the DNA to be valid. > > Here are the actual parish records: > > > JOHN PACE Chr 22 Sep 1665 > > WROCKWARDINE Shropshire > > Father: JOSEPH PACE > > Mother: MARGARET PALMER > > P006621 > > GEORGE PACE > - Chr 28 May 1670 > PREES, Shropshire > - Father: JOSEPH PACE > - Mother not mentioned > but George's 1st child also named MARGARET > > These two parishes are ten or twelve miles apart. > > They appear to be brothers. Is "proven beyond reasonable doubt" that they > are brothers? If not, at least it fits the "preponderance of evidence" test. > > Further circumstantial evidence that John of M is John of Shropshire: > > Age is just right. John b 1665 would be 27 when John of M bought his farm. > > John b. 1665 vanishes from Shropshire records. If he stayed, married, or > died there would be other records. So he apparently left the area, and since > there is no marriage record, probably at a young age. > > But the best circumstantial evidence comes from naming patterns for their > children. > > John of M in America: > Sarah > John Jr. > JOSEPH > Benjamin > MARGARET > MARY > Newsome > JANE (Listed as Joane in will but as Jane elsewhere-an easy > spelling difference) > GEORGE > William > > George Pace in Shropshire: > > George Pace > Chr. 28 May 1670 Prees Shropshire father > Proven 6x ancestor of Gordon T Pace > > +(1) Mary (Elizabetha) Cotterell > 19 Oct 1693 > > Children: > > MARGARETT > MARY > JANE > GEORGE > n > +(2) Elizbeth Picken > Son: JOSEPH > > So ALL FIVE of the given names of George in England match with five of the > ten children of John in America. Two of those names are Joseph and Margaret, > the proven parents of John 1665. > > This seems to me to add to the "preponderance of evidence" but WE STILL DO > NOT HAVE A "PROVEN". For that we need to add documentary evidence. > > Even Jack has agreed in private email that John 1665 is the "most likely > candidate". So why stick to just two categorise - proven or unproven? > > I believe that if John 1665 is listed as ancestor of John of M a caveat > should be added-perhaps "Probable" or "based on circumstantial evidence." > > To just list it as a given can be misleading as IT IS NOT PROVEN, and to not > acknowledge the circumstantial evidence can be equally misleading. Why not > something in between? > > I have it listed in my genealogy as "Probable" and I cite the evidence > above. Citing the evidence is what is important. > > Roy Johnson > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PACE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

List of UK parishes/towns with PACE families. http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/uk/sal.htm 48 Christenings PACE family Christenings at Saint Chad's parish, Prees, Shropshire The 1600's - Decade by decade - about 48 Christenings http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/records/preespr.htm RETURN to LINEAGE page http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/uk/1000.htm Saint Chad's parish, Prees, Shropshire The 1600's - Decade by decade - http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/records/preespr.htm FIND Here in this column (left side of page) are PACE Christenings from the parish register I ordered the microfilm for these. They also show in the LDS Batch file so the batch file is an accurate record of what was recorded in the parish register. LDS Batch Number: C035081 PREES, Shropshire There are about 48 PACE Christenings http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/records/wellington.htm A collection and study of The names BLADON GROOM MADDOX PACE TURNER WRIGHT in the parish of Christ Church, WELLINGTON Shropshire including PREES and a few other local parishes WROCKWARDINE HIGH ERCALL Notice CATHARINE GREGORY GROOM ANN GREGORY GROOM This could indicate the mother's maiden name was GREGORY I looked but didn't fine the marriage but the GREGORY name was in many north Shropshire parishes. http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/records/gregory.htm GREGORY-SPENCER-DUDLEY-ROBINSON http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/records/groom.htm Recently, a ROBINSON researcher in Maryland, US was looking for PALMER ancestry (1800s) mentioning parishes of Rodington, High Ercall I looked for a possible connection and discovered the Francis Palmer, father of Margaret Palmer likely came from the large PALMER family at Bishops Castle which is in the Welsh mountains, west Shropshire area. http://www.pacefamilyhistory.zeropages.ca/records/palmer.htm#bish There were also PAICE Christening records there. FRANCISCUS PAMORE possible father of MARGARET my 7X great grandmother Chr. 1631 Wellington Christening: 17 FEB 1609 Shipton, Shropshire (Corve Dale-Wenlock Edge) Father: RICHARDI PAMORE SHIPTON HALL Shipton Hall was built around 1587 and has been described as 'an exquisite specimen of Elizabethan architecture'. There are Georgian additions and fine Rococo plasterwork. Shipton is a family home and stands in its own grounds together with a medieval dovecote and parish Church of St James, dating from Saxon times. Shipton Hall is located six and a half miles southwest of Much Wenlock on the B4378 signposted to Craven Arms. http://www.information-britain.co.uk/showPlace.cfm?Place_ID=944 GTPace

Re the recent dispute between Gordon W Pace and Jack Pace about John of Misslesex: The crux of the matter: Gordon accepts the strong circumstantial evidence that John of M is John b. 1665 Shropshire Jack will accept nothing but documentary evidence and accepts only "proven" or "unproven" nothing between. I will argue that John of M was PROBABLY John of Shropshire but a bit short of PROVEN. Some of my philosophy: Nothing is "proven beyond a shadow of a doubt" in law or genealogy. In law a person must be "guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" and DNA evidence has released numerous prisoners so deemed by juries earlier. True also in genealogy. Say a family raises the child of a Pace relative as their own, includes him in census records, wills, etc. All of the documentation would "prove" that he was a son of that father, and the DNA would likely also match-and all would be wrong. But there are more categories than "proven" or "uproven." Here we can also go to law. In criminal cases it is "proven beyond reasonable doubt." In civil cases "preponderance of evidence" is the criteria. We could also use that as a degree below "Proven" - say, Probable -- rather than taking the absolutes. Now let's look at the different views and the data: First, Jack said: "Do you now contend that the Eastern Shore Paces came to America from Shropshire." Well, John of M most certainly did: Reasoning: Gordon T Pace has proven Shropshire ancestry Gordon matches 36/37 with the modal for John of M's descendents Therefore John of M has Shropshire ancestry. If this is not true, then DNA is useless. In addition, I have somewhere (can't find it now) a letter by a John of M descendent-I think 1900s-stating that John passed down the information that he was from Wales. Another Pace line has an oral history stating the same. The area of Shropshire where the records are found was once part of Wales. But DNA cannot tell us WHICH common ancestor. Let's look at those records: Gordon W said: "Gordon Thomas Pace.has provided convincing circumstantial evidence that John of Middlesex was b. in 1665 in Shropshire, a son of Joseph and Margaret Pace (or Pacey). This has been confirmed by the results of many DNA tests." But first we have to show that John 1665 was a relative of Gordon T. Pace's ancestor for the DNA to be valid. Here are the actual parish records: > JOHN PACE Chr 22 Sep 1665 > WROCKWARDINE Shropshire > Father: JOSEPH PACE > Mother: MARGARET PALMER > P006621 GEORGE PACE - Chr 28 May 1670 PREES, Shropshire - Father: JOSEPH PACE - Mother not mentioned but George's 1st child also named MARGARET These two parishes are ten or twelve miles apart. They appear to be brothers. Is "proven beyond reasonable doubt" that they are brothers? If not, at least it fits the "preponderance of evidence" test. Further circumstantial evidence that John of M is John of Shropshire: Age is just right. John b 1665 would be 27 when John of M bought his farm. John b. 1665 vanishes from Shropshire records. If he stayed, married, or died there would be other records. So he apparently left the area, and since there is no marriage record, probably at a young age. But the best circumstantial evidence comes from naming patterns for their children. John of M in America: Sarah John Jr. JOSEPH Benjamin MARGARET MARY Newsome JANE (Listed as Joane in will but as Jane elsewhere-an easy spelling difference) GEORGE William George Pace in Shropshire: George Pace Chr. 28 May 1670 Prees Shropshire father Proven 6x ancestor of Gordon T Pace +(1) Mary (Elizabetha) Cotterell 19 Oct 1693 Children: MARGARETT MARY JANE GEORGE n +(2) Elizbeth Picken Son: JOSEPH So ALL FIVE of the given names of George in England match with five of the ten children of John in America. Two of those names are Joseph and Margaret, the proven parents of John 1665. This seems to me to add to the "preponderance of evidence" but WE STILL DO NOT HAVE A "PROVEN". For that we need to add documentary evidence. Even Jack has agreed in private email that John 1665 is the "most likely candidate". So why stick to just two categorise - proven or unproven? I believe that if John 1665 is listed as ancestor of John of M a caveat should be added-perhaps "Probable" or "based on circumstantial evidence." To just list it as a given can be misleading as IT IS NOT PROVEN, and to not acknowledge the circumstantial evidence can be equally misleading. Why not something in between? I have it listed in my genealogy as "Probable" and I cite the evidence above. Citing the evidence is what is important. Roy Johnson