In checking some old emails, I came across this interesting information from Sharon Johnson (no relation) > Roy: Here is the source of my statement about the 32 blacks. I received a > CD from the University of Virginia's library with the census. The census > is more a listing of numbers of houses animals, and people without names. > Talk to you later. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Reference Desk" <refdesk@lva.lib.va.us> > To: <smmjohnson@cowisp.net> > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 2:45 PM > Subject: ANSWER - JOHNSON - RE: First Jamestown Blacks > > >> Dear Mrs. Johnson, >> >> I've checked several sources, but don't see any reference made directly >> to the names of the first Blacks transported to Jamestown in 1619. One >> source does list the first names of 12 Africans mentioned in the 1624 >> census and 8 mentioned in the 1625 muster. This information can be found >> on p. 36 in A Study of the Africans and African Americans on Jamestown >> Island and at Green Spring 1619-1803 by Martha W. McCartney (2003). >> >> There's also an interesting article in the Magazine of Virginia Genealogy >> (vol. 33, no. 3, summer 1995, pp. 155-170) by William Thorndike entitled: >> "The Virginia Census of 1619." This article asserts that there were 32 >> Africans in Jamestown in March 1619, which was 5 months before the >> Flemish ship arrived in August 1619 with supposedly the first 20 Africans >> to arrive in Jamestown. >> >> Another article on this topic which I haven't looked at, but that may >> prove useful, is >> "Twenty Negroes to Jamestown in 1619?" by Wesley Frank Craven (Virginia >> Quarterly Review 1971, vol. 47, no. 3, p. 416-420.) >> >> I hope these sources are helpful to you. Please contact us if we can be >> of further assistance. >> >> >> Lisa Wehrmann >> Reference Librarian

Roy: It is interesting that Frederick was a rather rare given name for Paces in early America. In addition to Frederick Pace b. abt 1768, supposed son of John Pace and Sarah Burgh, there is Frederick b. 1791 SC, grandson of John Pace and Sarah Burgh through their son William. The only other Frederick Pace I know of born before 1800 was Frederick Pace b. 1779, son of Darius Pace b. abt 1750 (NC?) and Dorothy Raines, b. abt 1760 - guess where _WALES! I wonder how common the given name Frederick was in Wales at that time. Also, has anyone looked for Paces in Parish Registers and other genealogical information from Wales in the mid-1700's. If there were Paces there it would seem they should have left some records. Gordon W. Pace -----Original Message----- From: Roy Johnson <royj@webster.edu> Sent: Nov 28, 2005 5:25 PM To: PACE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [PACE-L] Frederick Pace of Wales and Occams Razor I did a study on the Pace name in Wales. Can't recall all sources but I found that : (1) Pace is not a Welsh name; it is English. The Welsh were Gaelic and tended to resist English things. (2) There are Paces living in Wales but they are few in number and appear to be of pretty recent origin. This doesn't prove anyting one way or another, but all facts should be brought in. Roy Johnson = PACE Mailing List ==== To subscribe or unsubscribe send email to PACE-L-request@rootsweb.com with the one word message: subscribe OR unsubscribe For digest mode, use PACE-D-request@rootsweb.com ==== PACE Mailing List ==== You can search archived messages from the Pace Mailing List by going to http://searches.rootsweb.com. If you need instructions just ask me - gordonpace@comcast.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com

I've put together some web pages on my PACE ancestry from the Shropshire town of PREES, and adjacent local Shropshire parishes, which includes the Christening of JOHN PACE Christened 1665 at Wrockwardine, thought to be JOHN of MIDDLESEX, brother of my 6X great grandfather GEORGE PACE Christened at PREES in 1670. Both JOHN and GEORGE appeared in PR's having father JOSEPH PACE, who would be my 7X great grandfather. I've also been collecting Marriages and Christenings of other surnames connected to PACE in north Shropshire in 1600's, 1700's, 1800's. Some of these surnames show up in Virginia and it's my hope that emmigration folk may eventually emerge from these Shropshire surname lists. see - http://phc.igs.net/~gordpace/records/index.htm Getting back to the JOSEPH PACE Bear in mind, the names were not always spelled exactly the same in every parish. The father of JOHN Chr 1665 and GEORGE Chr 1670 appears in several Shropshire parish registers, namely: PREES (his Christening to be JOSEPH PACE. If you go to http://www.phc.igs.net/~gordpace/records/prees.htm The page consists of three columns the left column, shows the family of ROWLAND PACE. The third child is: JOSUAH PACE Chr 07 JUN 1618 PREES, Shropshire Batch Number: C035081 This is the JOSEPH PACE, father of JOHN Chr 1665 and GEORGE Chr 1670, my 6X gg/f I have spent hours and hours collecting data from Parish Registers of north Shropshire (on the LDS FamilySearch.org site) and am satisfied I've found what I was looking for. JOSUAH PACE shows up in his marriage as: JOSHUAH PACE (Notice spelling variation) Spouse: MARGARETTE PALLMER Marriage: 04 MAR 1653 High Ercall, Shropshire Batch Number: M008961 next record is ANNE PACE Christening: 02 NOV 1655 Rodington Father: JOSEH PACE Batch Number: C061453 Geographically, Rodington, Wrockwardine, High Ercall (Ercall Magna) Wellington are only walking distance apart. I have been to them and taken video. JOHN PACE Christening: 22 SEP 1665 Wrockwardine Father: JOSEPH PACE Mother: Margaret Batch Number: P006621 GEORGE PACE Christening: 28 MAY 1670 Prees Father: JOSEPH PACE There is considerable time between ANNE and JOHN. Perhaps father JOSEPH was not a farmer but was a merchant and would not require a large family, which seemed to be the norm. His wife, MARGARET PALMER, came from Wellington, a market town, which adds credibility to my idea, JOSEPH may have been a merchant and not a farmer. Maybe JOSEPH PACE was both merchant and farmer and could financially afford to hire farm help. Another assumption, but entirely possible. This assumption lends credibility, son JOHN may have come from a family affluent enough for JOHN to pay his way to Virginia and later purchace 150 acres of land from a Mr. Nichols. Word probably went out to parishes in England for emmigrants to the colonies, in those days. JOSEPH was known to WELLINGTON, local market town, where his wife was from, a local market centre, (in today's city of Telford). The emmigration of JOHN (Chr 1665) would have likely taken place in time in the latter 1680's. Consider his brother GEORGE Chr 1670 at Prees. GEORGE left PREES and married at NORBURY, Staffordshire in 1693. So both JOHN and GEORGE PACE left their local parishes and "moved on". Maybe this is further evidence, a 'merchant class' family origin. Farm families usually remained in parishes, Christened in. To procede on this assumption, my GEORGE left NORBURY for RANTON, Staffordshire between 1696 and 1699, between Christenings of MARY PACE Chr 3 Dec 1696 NORBURY and JANE PACE Chr 12 Nov 1699 RANTON Take note that MARY PACE later married + Richard BARNETT - m 4 Feb 1720 at RANTON, Staffs. a Surname that shows up in same Virginia parishes as PACE according to emails I've seen on BARNETT-L@rootsweb.com Sometime around 1720, GEORGE PACE left RANTON, Staffordshire and settled at LANEY GREEN of Shareshill parish in the county of Staffordshire. His descendents of today are still on the same land, or at least, the same farmland and operate a market of their own, which I've visited. So, in conclusion, GEORGE PACE my 6X gg/f a 'Shropshire lad' apparently did the major part of the movement of my PACE family, in the UK. Once he settled at Laney Green, the PACE family remained there until today. This area became a coal mining area and contributed to the Industrial Revolution in England. Many local SHARESHILL parish folk married into the PACE family, Some of the names were PITT & CORBETT. These names also show up in Pennsylvania and Nova Scotia where coal mining fueled industry in America. Go to these Pennsylvania and Nova Scotia towns, as I've done, and you'll see PITT Street, STAFFORD Street, Corbetts and Pitts in the local phone books, so you know the related folk were there, and left their mark. see - http://www.phc.igs.net~gordpace/pitt.htm 150 years of PACE PITT CORBETT inter-relationships in Shareshill parish Pennsylvania also has many Welsh names for their towns. Shropshire is in the Welsh Marches and families inter-married. The map of south Wales is at my feet here. No doubt many Gloucestershire PACE folk lived and worked in nearby Welsh valleys, where coal and slate were mined. Joe Anderson says: Bruce Howard, in his book which results from an impressive amount of excellent genealogical research, debunks the very existence of a Frederick Pace of Wales, largely because he was unable to prove the existence of such a person in any existing record. However, it is exceedingly difficult to prove a negative, and the lack of a paper trail certainly does not prove the non-existence of Frederick of Wales. Yes, the last sentence, I'd buy. Common sence still is useful, if you can't find your answer in the US, get into an airplane, rent a car and go find what you're looking for. Wales is still there, it's not a myth, visit the pubs, libraries, records offices, visit the castles, talk to the people. You'll find reality and thoroughly enjoy it and want to come back. Welsh surnames are already in your PACE ancestry as it's in mine. I like to believe, it's where America started. Forget about Columbus discovering America, go father back, consider Prince Madoc, Knights Templar, and Gov. Berkley, Sir William Throckmorton, of colonial Virginia were from the same parishes in nearby Gloucestershire as GLS PACE families. I have evidence my Shropshire PACE ancestry goes back there too. The Dudley, Spencer surnames show up in my PACE ancestry. Contemporary of Elizabeth I, the time of Shakespeare, Cromwell, James I and settlement of Jamestown; the time in English history when things took place in a big way. Later eras were much less productive. Many of the surnames in these rather small local Shropshire parishes also showed up in Virginia. I've been collecting marriage & Christening records of their activity in Shropshire, 1600's, 1700's, 1800's. Perhaps the emmigration folk of these surnames will be from the lists I've put together of these Shropshire surnames. see - http://phc.igs.net/~gordpace/records/index.htm GTPace - Canada

The Joseph Pace listed as prisoner at Andersonville, Union, from KY was the son of Wm. Pace and wife Eliz. Haggard of Clark Co. KY. - a brother to my grandfather. He was with Sherman and captured in battle of Atlanta at Newnan, Ga. He was transferred from Andersonville to the prison hospital in Florence, SC where he died. He was 18 years old. > X-Message: #5 > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:49:14 -0700 > From: "Brenda Howorko" > Subject: Andersonville Prisoners > I was cruising one day and got a list of Andersonville Prisoners with > surname Pace - there are no details other than what is here: > > Pace, Joseph Union 4th Kentucky Infantry > Pace, Josiah F Union 18 United States Infantry

Costain is not the author of the Caedfel series. He wrote the books tracing the history of England from the conquest to the last Plantagenets. Roy -----Original Message----- From: GTPace [mailto:gordpace@eagle.ca] Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2005 11:31 AM To: PACE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PACE-L] Brother Cadfael's Chronicles Brother Cadfael's Chronicles - Go to - http://user.chollian.net/~beringar/e-cad.htm 14. The Hermit of Eyton Forest Costain probably takes the name EYTON from Shropshire's EYTON upon the WEALD MOORS, a place no more than 4 or 5 miles north of WELLINGTON & WROCKWARDINE, today's city of TELFORD, Shropshire, area of 7X great grandparents JOSEPH PACE & MARGARET PALMER The year is 1142, and all England is in the iron grip of a civil war. And within the sheltered cloisters of the Benedictine Abbey of St. Peter and St. Paul, there begins a chain of events no less momentous than the political upheavals of the outside world. First, there is the sad demise of Richard Ludel, Lord of Eaton, whose ten-year-old son and heir, also named Richard, is a pupil at the Abbey. Supported by Abbot Radulfus, the boy refuses to surrender his new powers to Dionysia, his furious, formidable grandmother. A stranger to the region is the hermit Cuthred, who enjoys the protection of Lady Dionysia, and whose young companion, Hyacinth, befriends Richard. Despite his reputation for holiness, Cuthred's arrival heralds a series of mishaps for the monks. When Richard disappears and a corpse is found in Eyton forest, Brother Cadfael is once more forced to leave the tranquillity of his herb garden and devote his knowledge of human nature to tracking down a ruthless murderer. Nearby Parishes, outside TELFORD: Eyton Upon The Weald Moors: home of the Eyton family, who once owned Dawley Bank. Drained marshland has now become arable farmland. http://www.telford.gov.uk/FreeTime/LocalHistory/ParishesOutsideTelford.htm Ercall Magna: Where Joseph Pace married Margaret Palmer in 1653 High Ercall (pronounced Arckle) was important during the Civil War. It has grown recently. Rodington: birthplace of Joseph & Margaret Pace's first child #1 ANNE PACE - Chr 02 NOV 1655 RODINGTON, Shropshire - Father: JOSEH PACE the River Roden gives this place its name. #2 JOHN PACE - Chr 22 Sep 1665 WROCKWARDINE, Shropshire - Father JOSEPH PACE - Mother MARGARET - P006621 #3 GEORGE PACE - Chr 28 May 1670 PREES, Shropshire - Father: JOSEPH PACE GTPace - Ontario Canada When I was a kid, I'd buy Classic Comic books. Some were of Thomas B Costain books. Thomas B Costain 1885-1965 Canada's Sir Walter Scott birthplace Brantford Ontario http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume6/74-75.htm The name of Thomas B. Costain, the Brantford, Ontario-born former editor of Maclean's, Saturday Evening Post, and advisory editor to Doubleday, was a byword in the world of letters earlier this century,.... Brantford, Ontario also birthplace of Alexander Graham Bell's Telephone 1st line from Brantford to Paris, Ontario ==== PACE Mailing List ==== To subscribe or unsubscribe send email to PACE-L-request@rootsweb.com with the one word message: subscribe OR unsubscribe For digest mode, use PACE-D-request@rootsweb.com

I was cruising one day and got a list of Andersonville Prisoners with surname Pace - there are no details other than what is here: Pace, Joseph Union 4th Kentucky Infantry Pace, Josiah F Union 18 United States Infantry Brenda Howorko Executive Assistant to the Deputy Minister Alberta Energy Ph: (780) 427-7727 Fx: (780) 422-3920 This communication is intended for the use of the recipient to which it is addressed, and may contain confidential, personal and or privileged information. Please contact us immediately if you are not the intended recipients of this communication, and do not copy, distribute, or take action relying on it. Any communication received in error, or subsequent reply, should be deleted or destroyed.

Brother Cadfael's Chronicles - Go to - http://user.chollian.net/~beringar/e-cad.htm 14. The Hermit of Eyton Forest Costain probably takes the name EYTON from Shropshire's EYTON upon the WEALD MOORS, a place no more than 4 or 5 miles north of WELLINGTON & WROCKWARDINE, today's city of TELFORD, Shropshire, area of 7X great grandparents JOSEPH PACE & MARGARET PALMER The year is 1142, and all England is in the iron grip of a civil war. And within the sheltered cloisters of the Benedictine Abbey of St. Peter and St. Paul, there begins a chain of events no less momentous than the political upheavals of the outside world. First, there is the sad demise of Richard Ludel, Lord of Eaton, whose ten-year-old son and heir, also named Richard, is a pupil at the Abbey. Supported by Abbot Radulfus, the boy refuses to surrender his new powers to Dionysia, his furious, formidable grandmother. A stranger to the region is the hermit Cuthred, who enjoys the protection of Lady Dionysia, and whose young companion, Hyacinth, befriends Richard. Despite his reputation for holiness, Cuthred's arrival heralds a series of mishaps for the monks. When Richard disappears and a corpse is found in Eyton forest, Brother Cadfael is once more forced to leave the tranquillity of his herb garden and devote his knowledge of human nature to tracking down a ruthless murderer. Nearby Parishes, outside TELFORD: Eyton Upon The Weald Moors: home of the Eyton family, who once owned Dawley Bank. Drained marshland has now become arable farmland. http://www.telford.gov.uk/FreeTime/LocalHistory/ParishesOutsideTelford.htm Ercall Magna: Where Joseph Pace married Margaret Palmer in 1653 High Ercall (pronounced Arckle) was important during the Civil War. It has grown recently. Rodington: birthplace of Joseph & Margaret Pace's first child #1 ANNE PACE - Chr 02 NOV 1655 RODINGTON, Shropshire - Father: JOSEH PACE the River Roden gives this place its name. #2 JOHN PACE - Chr 22 Sep 1665 WROCKWARDINE, Shropshire - Father JOSEPH PACE - Mother MARGARET - P006621 #3 GEORGE PACE - Chr 28 May 1670 PREES, Shropshire - Father: JOSEPH PACE GTPace - Ontario Canada When I was a kid, I'd buy Classic Comic books. Some were of Thomas B Costain books. Thomas B Costain 1885-1965 Canada's Sir Walter Scott birthplace Brantford Ontario http://collections.ic.gc.ca/heirloom_series/volume6/74-75.htm The name of Thomas B. Costain, the Brantford, Ontario-born former editor of Maclean’s, Saturday Evening Post, and advisory editor to Doubleday, was a byword in the world of letters earlier this century,.... Brantford, Ontario also birthplace of Alexander Graham Bell's Telephone 1st line from Brantford to Paris, Ontario

Roy, You make some good points that are certainly relevant to the issue at hand. At this juncture, I would make no claims about this individual who remains totally unknown to all of us other than through this unsubstantiated family tradition. If was such an individual actually existed and there was something substantive behind the "of Wales" part, it might mean only that he came from other parts and was a shopkeeper in Cardiff for a few years before finally shoving off for the colonies. I have to confess that I am an internet genealogist as opposed to a real one. It seems to me that most Paces these days accept that the Frederick Pace of Wales story is just a myth, and I am not sure that this is the most logical conclusion based on the reasons that I stated. In weighing the evidence available to me, I have decided that the Frederick Pace of Wales story most likely fits my ancestry, rather than the John Pace the Tory story. For me, this is an investigation in progress and I freely admit the possibility the Bruce Howard may turn out to be correct after all. Now, I need some volunteers to drive down to Mississippi with me and hold down a few male Paces for me while I do a few cheek swabs. Not for the faint of heart - I hear that those Mississippi Paces are awfully hard to hold down. Joe Anderson P.S. I have to confess that I am fond of the Occam's Razor stuff, which many of us need to use more often, especially the conspiracy theorists and alien believers. Hey, maybe those crop circles weren't made by alien spaceships! Perhaps it was just that bunch of guys who hang out in the pub! ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Roy Johnson" <royj@webster.edu> To: "'Janders 45'" <janders45@hotmail.com>,<PACE-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: RE: [PACE-L] Frederick Pace of Wales and Occams Razor Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:25:14 -0600 I did a study on the Pace name in Wales. Can't recall all sources but I found that : (1) Pace is not a Welsh name; it is English. The Welsh were Gaelic and tended to resist English things. (2) There are Paces living in Wales but they are few in number and appear to be of pretty recent origin. This doesn't prove anyting one way or another, but all facts should be brought in. Roy Johnson

They are very cheap on Amazon.com. Some of the Cadfael books can be had for 99 cents (used) plus shipping. I have the entire Costain series, purchased on Amazon. -----Original Message----- From: julianpace [mailto:jhpace@alltel.net] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 7:00 PM To: Roy Johnson; PACE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PACE-L] English novels Roy and all, try your local public libraries for both the Costain and the Cadfael series. If they do not have them, they can borrow them for you through inter-library loan. Also try your local academic libraries, if you have access to them. I have not checked in the last few months, but Barns and Nobles had some of the Cadfael series. I believe that the video series of the Cadfael books were on PBS Julian H. Pace, Sr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Johnson" <royj@webster.edu> To: <PACE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: [PACE-L] English novels > Thanks to all who sent me the info on English novels. I have ordered a > couple, will probably order more later. I love historical novels, > especially English. An excellent series is by Thomas Costain, covering > English history from the 1066 Norman conquest through the last of the > Plantagenet kings (1485 when Henry Tudor (Henry VII, father of Henry VIII, > grandfather of Elizabeth I) became King. > > Titles: Titles: The Conquerors, The Magnificent Century, The Three Edwards, > The Last Plantagenets. I think they are out of print but you can find them > used. > > > > Roy Johnson > > > > ==== PACE Mailing List ==== > To share info which may be of interest to others, reply to the mail list (PACE-L@rootsweb.com). To say thank you or otherwise reply personally, reply to sender. > >

I did a study on the Pace name in Wales. Can't recall all sources but I found that : (1) Pace is not a Welsh name; it is English. The Welsh were Gaelic and tended to resist English things. (2) There are Paces living in Wales but they are few in number and appear to be of pretty recent origin. This doesn't prove anyting one way or another, but all facts should be brought in. Roy Johnson -----Original Message----- From: Janders 45 [mailto:janders45@hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:12 AM To: PACE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PACE-L] Frederick Pace of Wales and Occams Razor [Background: I am descended from Elizabeth Pace who married Wiley Etheredge and who was the daughter of William Pace (d. Clarke Co, AL, Jun 1826). My version of Occam's Razor holds that, amongst a number of competing theories or explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be correct.] My family, along with other Pace descendents whose ancestors passed through Clarke Co, AL, from 1810 to 1830, has long believed that we descend from a Frederick Pace of Wales. This fits into the "family tradition" category, as I am not aware of any other supporting documentation. Bruce Howard, in his book which results from an impressive amount of excellent genealogical research, debunks the very existence of a Frederick Pace of Wales, largely because he was unable to prove the existence of such a person in any existing record. However, it is exceedingly difficult to prove a negative, and the lack of a paper trail certainly does not prove the non-existence of Frederick of Wales. It seems to me that Mr. Howard did an excellent bit of genealogical detective work in sorting through the many Paces of North Carolina. But some sons of John Pace and Sarah Burge of Surry Co, NC, seem to have disappeared from the Carolinas in the decades following the Revolution and Bruce was having trouble figuring out where they went. In the same time period, some folks appeared in Clarke Co, AL, that looked very similar to these missing sons of John and Sarah. A good genealogist like Mr. Howard abhors a bunch of unconnected dots on his chart, so Bruce made a number of assumptions that allowed him to draw lines through those dots. The principal assumption was that the Clarke Co Paces made up the story of Frederick of Wales in order to hide the fact that their ancestor John was a Tory who died while fighting on the wrong side in the Revolution. Now, back to Occam's Razor and the two competing theories: 1. Those Clarke Co Paces were telling the truth as well as they knew it. 2. They made up the story to hide an unpleasant part of their ancestry. The problem with option 2 is that it requires a number of assumptions - it assumes that they were ashamed of their ancestry, that they were willing to lie about it, that they got away with the lie, etc, along with a number of more complex genealogical assumptions involving their moves from the Carolinas to Alabama and their interrelationships, etc. This explanation involves a goodly number of assumptions, any of which might be untrue, and it is a couple of orders of magnitude more complex than explanation 1. So, if I follow the teachings of that old Franciscan friar, William of Ockham, then I have to conclude that my ancestors were probably telling the truth and I am most likely descended from a Frederick Pace of Wales. The Frederick of Wales story has a small measure of support from the Y chromosome evidence. We have three data points from Mississippi Paces who show no DNA relationship to other Paces. But, as Roy Johnson has pointed out, these three Paces are closely related (son, father, and uncle) and represent only one line, so we need DNA samples from other Clarke County lines to have a reasonable degree of confidence in the non-relationship between them and other Pace lines. I don't mean to run down Bruce Howard here. I feel that he is an excellent genealogist and his book is a valuable addition to my library. But when he departs from reporting fact and engages in assumption and speculation, then I think that his reader should feel free to agree or to disagree with his conclusions. Joe Anderson ==== PACE Mailing List ==== To subscribe or unsubscribe send email to PACE-L-request@rootsweb.com with the one word message: subscribe OR unsubscribe For digest mode, use PACE-D-request@rootsweb.com

John, I too would like to have answers to the questions that you raise. I would also like to know the provenance of the letter starting with who holds the original today? Not that I doubt the authenticity, but knowing where the information came from can sometimes help you to understand it. The descent from an Irish "Rose" with a name change to Pace is an interesting tradition that I hadn't heard before. I think that we have to assign a high value to the Carrie Pace letter since she was about 100 years closer to the fact than we are today. But we also need to keep in mind that, if we are confused today, she also might have been confused a bit back in 1923. After all, her old family records had been lost and she was trying to reconstruct them, much as we are trying to do today. What she says about two of the Clarke Co Paces rings true. John's family apparently did move over to Mississippi following his death. In the 1830 census, I believe that all of the Paces who are left in Clarke Co are Dempsey and his children and the descendents of William Pace. I don't see any left that appear to belong to John. I find it a bit strange that she did not mention William Pace at all. After all, he and his descendents were living right there in the same neighborhood as John and Dempsey. If she knew of those two, one thinks that she would also have known of William, IF they were all as closely related as many believe them to be today. This raises the intriguing possibility that perhaps we don't have these relationships quite right. It seems to be universally accepted that Dempsey (b. 1775 - the early immigrant to Clarke Co) was the oldest son of William Pace. I think that this belief results from the fact that Dempsy (sic) was listed as one of the legatees of William Pace in the estate papers. But if you examine all of the estate papers closely and then you look at the 1850 Clarke Co census, then you might conclude that two Dempsey Paces were present at the burial of William Pace. I believe that Dempsey the younger (Dempsy or Demsy in the estate papers) who was born in GA in 1810 was the son of William and Drucilla. And Dempsey the elder (b. 1775 SC) was not. So, who was Dempsey the elder, if not the son of William? One possibility is that he was the brother of John and the son of Frederick Pace of Wales, just as the story goes. But we have to reconcile all of this with the Carrie Pace letter, don't we? I could really use some help in figuring all of this out. Joe Anderson ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Mr John Pace" <pjohndeb@verizon.net> To: PACE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PACE-L] Frederick Pace of Wales and Occams Razor Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 12:12:37 -0500 Joe, or others Excellent letter Joe. I would be interested in learning anything you or others know of the 1923 Carrie Pace letter (who she was, where she got her info, who the letter was written to, her relationship to other Paces etc.) and also the opinion of her letter and the relevance of the letter to the family of Frederick of Wales. John Pace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janders 45" <janders45@hotmail.com> To: <PACE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: [PACE-L] Frederick Pace of Wales and Occams Razor >[Background: I am descended from Elizabeth Pace who married Wiley >Etheredge and who was the daughter of William Pace (d. Clarke Co, AL, Jun >1826). My version of Occam's Razor holds that, amongst a number of >competing theories or explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be >correct.] > >My family, along with other Pace descendents whose ancestors passed through >Clarke Co, AL, from 1810 to 1830, has long believed that we descend from a >Frederick Pace of Wales. This fits into the "family tradition" category, >as I am not aware of any other supporting documentation. Bruce Howard, in >his book which results from an impressive amount of excellent genealogical >research, debunks the very existence of a Frederick Pace of Wales, largely >because he was unable to prove the existence of such a person in any >existing record. However, it is exceedingly difficult to prove a negative, >and the lack of a paper trail certainly does not prove the non-existence of >Frederick of Wales. > >It seems to me that Mr. Howard did an excellent bit of genealogical >detective work in sorting through the many Paces of North Carolina. But >some sons of John Pace and Sarah Burge of Surry Co, NC, seem to have >disappeared from the Carolinas in the decades following the Revolution and >Bruce was having trouble figuring out where they went. In the same time >period, some folks appeared in Clarke Co, AL, that looked very similar to >these missing sons of John and Sarah. A good genealogist like Mr. Howard >abhors a bunch of unconnected dots on his chart, so Bruce made a number of >assumptions that allowed him to draw lines through those dots. The >principal assumption was that the Clarke Co Paces made up the story of >Frederick of Wales in order to hide the fact that their ancestor John was a >Tory who died while fighting on the wrong side in the Revolution. > >Now, back to Occam's Razor and the two competing theories: >1. Those Clarke Co Paces were telling the truth as well as they knew it. >2. They made up the story to hide an unpleasant part of their ancestry. > >The problem with option 2 is that it requires a number of assumptions - it >assumes that they were ashamed of their ancestry, that they were willing to >lie about it, that they got away with the lie, etc, along with a number of >more complex genealogical assumptions involving their moves from the >Carolinas to Alabama and their interrelationships, etc. This explanation >involves a goodly number of assumptions, any of which might be untrue, and >it is a couple of orders of magnitude more complex than explanation 1. So, >if I follow the teachings of that old Franciscan friar, William of Ockham, >then I have to conclude that my ancestors were probably telling the truth >and I am most likely descended from a Frederick Pace of Wales. > >The Frederick of Wales story has a small measure of support from the Y >chromosome evidence. We have three data points from Mississippi Paces who >show no DNA relationship to other Paces. But, as Roy Johnson has pointed >out, these three Paces are closely related (son, father, and uncle) and >represent only one line, so we need DNA samples from other Clarke County >lines to have a reasonable degree of confidence in the non-relationship >between them and other Pace lines. > >I don't mean to run down Bruce Howard here. I feel that he is an excellent >genealogist and his book is a valuable addition to my library. But when he >departs from reporting fact and engages in assumption and speculation, then >I think that his reader should feel free to agree or to disagree with his >conclusions. > >Joe Anderson

I found another reference to W.H. Pace in the regimental history section of the book. During a charge on 15 May 1864 in an engagement at Resaca, GA, the regimental "color bearer, Sergeant W. H. Pace of Company I was wounded." So, it seems that one of our Paces was either a very brave man or else he wasn't smart enough to realize that the color bearer was the man most likely to be shot. Personally, I prefer the first alternative. Joe Anderson ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Janders 45" <janders45@hotmail.com> To: PACE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PACE-L] Clarke County Paces in 38th Alabama Infantry Civil War Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 13:02:08 -0600 I have just obtained a book by Arthur E. Green entitled “Southerners at War: The 38th Alabama Infantry Volunteers.” This book contains a short history of the regiment giving its movements and engagements – about 40 pages. For the next 300 pages, he gives whatever details he could find on each member of the regiment – it looks like the sort of information that one could obtain from the Confederate records in the National Archives. Five Paces are listed, all in Company I, which was recruited from Clarke Co, AL. They are: Pace, A. L. – Burial note 30 Aug 1864. Pace, George W. (Pace, G. H.) – Died 14 Mar 1865 in Richmond, VA, of chronic diarrhea. Pace, J. J. – Age 26, gray eyes, sandy hair, dark complexion, 6’1” Pace, Robert B. (R. B.) - Captured at Battle of Missionary Ridge, prisoner at Rock Island. Resident of Coffeeville, Clarke Co, AL. Age 35, blue eyes, brown hair, fair complexion, 5’ 10”. Pace, W.H. – Captured at Spanish Fort, AL, in the closing days of the war. I believe that the physical description was taken from the parole at the end of the war, so the ages listed would be in May or June of 1865. The information is sketchy on most of these Paces, but if anyone is interested, I will be happy to email you a scan of that page. Also, two Paces are listed as having died in the Civil War on the Clarke County War Memorial in Jackson, Alabama. They are: H.L. Pace J.G. Pace Both of these were in Co D of the 32nd Alabama (another Clarke Co unit) along with two other Paces (the last in Co H). Pace, A. R., Co. "D" Pace, H. L., 2nd Lt., Co. "D" Pace, J. G. S., Co. "D" Pace, John W., Co. "D" Pace, W. J., Co. "H" Joe Anderson ==== PACE Mailing List ==== Check out the new Pace Society of America web page at: www.pacesociety.org, and please join the Pace Society of America for only $25.00 per year.

Donor 1.. Father 2.. Grandfather 3.. William Pace (1837-1862 4.. Charles Pace ca 1810-1847 5.. Robert Pace ca 1785-1850 6.. George Pace (Disputed from this point on) 7.. Richard+Elizabeth 1713 8.. Richard+Sarah 9.. James+Elizabeth 1669 10.. Richard of North Carolina, ca 1637-1677 I have date of of Cha rles death it is 1845 and he is Buried on his farm just outside Harlan Co Ky Border on the Clay Co Ky Side .. this at one time was reported on the Harlan Co Ky Website and I have info on the guardianship of Charles Pace Children if you need that .. I also have found a cousin of yours from Abner Lewis Pace ....will send you their email when I get Ok.. I have tried to get them to join Pace mailing list.... Darlene

Public libraries are a good choice. If you decide you want to read this series, begin with A Morbid Taste for Bones, the first in the series. There are 20 novels in all, plus a volume with 3 short stories. Except for the short stores, the stories are in chronological order, and are best read in order. I purchased all 20 volumes on Amazon.com. Most were available new, several were out of print and I had to order them used through individuals who made them available on Amazon. All were in good shape when delivered. I am two pages from finishing book 13, The Rose Rent. Several of these were on PBS with Derek Jacobi as the lead. These videos are also available to be purchased. Charlie >Roy and all, try your local public libraries for both the Costain and the >Cadfael series. If they do not have them, they can borrow them for you >through inter-library loan. Also try your local academic libraries, if you >have access to them. I have not checked in the last few months, but Barns >and Nobles had some of the Cadfael series. I believe that the video series >of the Cadfael books were on PBS > >Julian H. Pace, Sr.

Roy and all, try your local public libraries for both the Costain and the Cadfael series. If they do not have them, they can borrow them for you through inter-library loan. Also try your local academic libraries, if you have access to them. I have not checked in the last few months, but Barns and Nobles had some of the Cadfael series. I believe that the video series of the Cadfael books were on PBS Julian H. Pace, Sr. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy Johnson" <royj@webster.edu> To: <PACE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 7:37 AM Subject: [PACE-L] English novels > Thanks to all who sent me the info on English novels. I have ordered a > couple, will probably order more later. I love historical novels, > especially English. An excellent series is by Thomas Costain, covering > English history from the 1066 Norman conquest through the last of the > Plantagenet kings (1485 when Henry Tudor (Henry VII, father of Henry VIII, > grandfather of Elizabeth I) became King. > > Titles: Titles: The Conquerors, The Magnificent Century, The Three Edwards, > The Last Plantagenets. I think they are out of print but you can find them > used. > > > > Roy Johnson > > > > ==== PACE Mailing List ==== > To share info which may be of interest to others, reply to the mail list (PACE-L@rootsweb.com). To say thank you or otherwise reply personally, reply to sender. > >

I have just obtained a book by Arthur E. Green entitled “Southerners at War: The 38th Alabama Infantry Volunteers.” This book contains a short history of the regiment giving its movements and engagements – about 40 pages. For the next 300 pages, he gives whatever details he could find on each member of the regiment – it looks like the sort of information that one could obtain from the Confederate records in the National Archives. Five Paces are listed, all in Company I, which was recruited from Clarke Co, AL. They are: Pace, A. L. – Burial note 30 Aug 1864. Pace, George W. (Pace, G. H.) – Died 14 Mar 1865 in Richmond, VA, of chronic diarrhea. Pace, J. J. – Age 26, gray eyes, sandy hair, dark complexion, 6’1” Pace, Robert B. (R. B.) - Captured at Battle of Missionary Ridge, prisoner at Rock Island. Resident of Coffeeville, Clarke Co, AL. Age 35, blue eyes, brown hair, fair complexion, 5’ 10”. Pace, W.H. – Captured at Spanish Fort, AL, in the closing days of the war. I believe that the physical description was taken from the parole at the end of the war, so the ages listed would be in May or June of 1865. The information is sketchy on most of these Paces, but if anyone is interested, I will be happy to email you a scan of that page. Also, two Paces are listed as having died in the Civil War on the Clarke County War Memorial in Jackson, Alabama. They are: H.L. Pace J.G. Pace Both of these were in Co D of the 32nd Alabama (another Clarke Co unit) along with two other Paces (the last in Co H). Pace, A. R., Co. "D" Pace, H. L., 2nd Lt., Co. "D" Pace, J. G. S., Co. "D" Pace, John W., Co. "D" Pace, W. J., Co. "H" Joe Anderson

Joe, or others Excellent letter Joe. I would be interested in learning anything you or others know of the 1923 Carrie Pace letter (who she was, where she got her info, who the letter was written to, her relationship to other Paces etc.) and also the opinion of her letter and the relevance of the letter to the family of Frederick of Wales. John Pace ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janders 45" <janders45@hotmail.com> To: <PACE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: [PACE-L] Frederick Pace of Wales and Occams Razor > [Background: I am descended from Elizabeth Pace who married Wiley > Etheredge and who was the daughter of William Pace (d. Clarke Co, AL, Jun > 1826). My version of Occam's Razor holds that, amongst a number of > competing theories or explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be > correct.] > > My family, along with other Pace descendents whose ancestors passed > through Clarke Co, AL, from 1810 to 1830, has long believed that we > descend from a Frederick Pace of Wales. This fits into the "family > tradition" category, as I am not aware of any other supporting > documentation. Bruce Howard, in his book which results from an impressive > amount of excellent genealogical research, debunks the very existence of a > Frederick Pace of Wales, largely because he was unable to prove the > existence of such a person in any existing record. However, it is > exceedingly difficult to prove a negative, and the lack of a paper trail > certainly does not prove the non-existence of Frederick of Wales. > > It seems to me that Mr. Howard did an excellent bit of genealogical > detective work in sorting through the many Paces of North Carolina. But > some sons of John Pace and Sarah Burge of Surry Co, NC, seem to have > disappeared from the Carolinas in the decades following the Revolution and > Bruce was having trouble figuring out where they went. In the same time > period, some folks appeared in Clarke Co, AL, that looked very similar to > these missing sons of John and Sarah. A good genealogist like Mr. Howard > abhors a bunch of unconnected dots on his chart, so Bruce made a number of > assumptions that allowed him to draw lines through those dots. The > principal assumption was that the Clarke Co Paces made up the story of > Frederick of Wales in order to hide the fact that their ancestor John was > a Tory who died while fighting on the wrong side in the Revolution. > > Now, back to Occam's Razor and the two competing theories: > 1. Those Clarke Co Paces were telling the truth as well as they knew it. > 2. They made up the story to hide an unpleasant part of their ancestry. > > The problem with option 2 is that it requires a number of assumptions - it > assumes that they were ashamed of their ancestry, that they were willing > to lie about it, that they got away with the lie, etc, along with a number > of more complex genealogical assumptions involving their moves from the > Carolinas to Alabama and their interrelationships, etc. This explanation > involves a goodly number of assumptions, any of which might be untrue, and > it is a couple of orders of magnitude more complex than explanation 1. > So, if I follow the teachings of that old Franciscan friar, William of > Ockham, then I have to conclude that my ancestors were probably telling > the truth and I am most likely descended from a Frederick Pace of Wales. > > The Frederick of Wales story has a small measure of support from the Y > chromosome evidence. We have three data points from Mississippi Paces who > show no DNA relationship to other Paces. But, as Roy Johnson has pointed > out, these three Paces are closely related (son, father, and uncle) and > represent only one line, so we need DNA samples from other Clarke County > lines to have a reasonable degree of confidence in the non-relationship > between them and other Pace lines. > > I don't mean to run down Bruce Howard here. I feel that he is an > excellent genealogist and his book is a valuable addition to my library. > But when he departs from reporting fact and engages in assumption and > speculation, then I think that his reader should feel free to agree or to > disagree with his conclusions. > > Joe Anderson > > > > ==== PACE Mailing List ==== > To subscribe or unsubscribe send email to PACE-L-request@rootsweb.com with > the one word message: subscribe OR unsubscribe > For digest mode, use PACE-D-request@rootsweb.com > >

[Background: I am descended from Elizabeth Pace who married Wiley Etheredge and who was the daughter of William Pace (d. Clarke Co, AL, Jun 1826). My version of Occam’s Razor holds that, amongst a number of competing theories or explanations, the simplest one is most likely to be correct.] My family, along with other Pace descendents whose ancestors passed through Clarke Co, AL, from 1810 to 1830, has long believed that we descend from a Frederick Pace of Wales. This fits into the “family tradition” category, as I am not aware of any other supporting documentation. Bruce Howard, in his book which results from an impressive amount of excellent genealogical research, debunks the very existence of a Frederick Pace of Wales, largely because he was unable to prove the existence of such a person in any existing record. However, it is exceedingly difficult to prove a negative, and the lack of a paper trail certainly does not prove the non-existence of Frederick of Wales. It seems to me that Mr. Howard did an excellent bit of genealogical detective work in sorting through the many Paces of North Carolina. But some sons of John Pace and Sarah Burge of Surry Co, NC, seem to have disappeared from the Carolinas in the decades following the Revolution and Bruce was having trouble figuring out where they went. In the same time period, some folks appeared in Clarke Co, AL, that looked very similar to these missing sons of John and Sarah. A good genealogist like Mr. Howard abhors a bunch of unconnected dots on his chart, so Bruce made a number of assumptions that allowed him to draw lines through those dots. The principal assumption was that the Clarke Co Paces made up the story of Frederick of Wales in order to hide the fact that their ancestor John was a Tory who died while fighting on the wrong side in the Revolution. Now, back to Occam’s Razor and the two competing theories: 1. Those Clarke Co Paces were telling the truth as well as they knew it. 2. They made up the story to hide an unpleasant part of their ancestry. The problem with option 2 is that it requires a number of assumptions – it assumes that they were ashamed of their ancestry, that they were willing to lie about it, that they got away with the lie, etc, along with a number of more complex genealogical assumptions involving their moves from the Carolinas to Alabama and their interrelationships, etc. This explanation involves a goodly number of assumptions, any of which might be untrue, and it is a couple of orders of magnitude more complex than explanation 1. So, if I follow the teachings of that old Franciscan friar, William of Ockham, then I have to conclude that my ancestors were probably telling the truth and I am most likely descended from a Frederick Pace of Wales. The Frederick of Wales story has a small measure of support from the Y chromosome evidence. We have three data points from Mississippi Paces who show no DNA relationship to other Paces. But, as Roy Johnson has pointed out, these three Paces are closely related (son, father, and uncle) and represent only one line, so we need DNA samples from other Clarke County lines to have a reasonable degree of confidence in the non-relationship between them and other Pace lines. I don’t mean to run down Bruce Howard here. I feel that he is an excellent genealogist and his book is a valuable addition to my library. But when he departs from reporting fact and engages in assumption and speculation, then I think that his reader should feel free to agree or to disagree with his conclusions. Joe Anderson

I am Helping a Jim Hall who is looking for this Lady Ellen Pace was born in Letcher Co. Ky. in 1860. and I feel she must be one of the Perry, Leslie or Clay Co Pace's but I don't have all them in ..... Does anyone reconize who she is or who her parents would have been ..she married a Allen Witt sometime after the 1880 Cen and had child Charles Witt b-abt 1889.. Charles Death Cert notes Mother Ellen Pace b-1860 Letcher Co Ky ....father Allen Witt b-1871 Perry Co Ky Darlene

SURNAMES related to PACE of the Midlands of England Click On: http://www.phc.igs.net/~gordpace/records/index.htm For many years I've collected PACE records from the LDS site and collected in 'My Documents' folders, designated as to various SHROPSHIRE surnames that married into PACE Families of Shropshire, 1600's, 1700's, 1800's. These inter-marriages were a definite help for me to learn more about my PACE ancestors which seemed rather elusive, in my early research. My GEORGE PACE b 1670 at Prees, Shropshire, father JOSEPH, did not seem to fit into any other PACE family that I'd collected records of, as I went along with my research. I had to look harder and collect more data, making me more determined than ever. many of you have experienced the same thing, I'm sure of that. I began to look at other local Shropshire parish registers on the LDS site and collected all PACE records I could find. The JOSEPH PACE father did seem to show up in Wellington, High Ercall, Wrockwardine, at the appropriate dates to look logical to be father of my GEORGE PACE - 6X great grandfather. It is fortunate that PACE is not that common a name in Shropshire, making it rather obvious, to place JOSEPH in this PACE family, mainly due to the absence of any other JOSEPH/JOSHUA or however spelling was recorded in these adjacent parishes, in Shropshire. Having said this, little did I know that some of these names must have emmigrated and also showed up with the PACE name in the new colonies of Britain, wherever, in the world of exploration and settlement. I hope some of you may see some familiar names, in America, Australia, or elsewhere, were the PACE name showed up. The PACE name was not just from England, There were Paces in Malta, Italy, Albania. Britain had a naval base at Valetta, Malta for about 200 years. Many Maltese PACE folk were with the British Merchant Marine Service and settled far and wide also. The study of the PACE name in the world is a fascinating subject. I hope you can enjoy and use some of these files and pages I've put together. They will be added to, from time to time, as people write to me, and send me their info, which makes it all fit together, as we learn more. http://www.phc.igs.net/~gordpace/records/index.htm GTPace - Canada