Hi Mal, You must have been reading my mind. I had just begun looking for information on exactly the content of your message. I have always believe that the parents of John Webb, who married Mary Boone in 1720 at Gwynedd, was the son of Robert Webb and Elizabeth Songhurst Barber. But Robert was baptised C of E and Elizabeth was a Quaker, and I have found no records of their marriage or chilren, except Mary who died in 1714. I also could never understand why she, the daughter of a Quaker minister, would marry an Anglican. Then the other day, I was in the library and found an article in Quaker History about John Songhurst. At the end, it mentioned the Robert had died a Keithian, which may be why his burial was listed in Hinshaw as a non-Quaker. After Robert died, Elizabeth married Samuel Richardson. I probably will never find the connection I am looking for, but thanks for some interesting information. Kathryn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mal Humes" <mal3@mal.net> To: <PA-Old-Chester-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 1:26 PM Subject: [PaOldC] early PA Quaker & Baptists connections, Quaker Baptists,and Keithians > >Since I think it is virtually certain that Griffith Evan was not a > >Quaker, >>but a Baptist, I have been trying to read up on the early days of the >>Baptist Church - and to the cooperation and development of Quakers and >>Baptists in the Welsh Tract and throughout the 18th century. > > I would not assume that because one ancestor was known to have attended a > certain church at a certain time that this defines the person or family as > definitively of one faith or sect. > > I'd be especially careful making assumptions that certain Welsh settlers > were not Quaker because they were Baptist and vice versa. Keep in mind > that > the area was founded in a time of religious conversions and that by 1700 > few > Quakers had been Quakers for more than even a generation or two. Later > waves > of religious conversion followed with Methodists, Rappists (Harmonists), > the > rise of the Presbyterian church in the US, the Swedenborg church movement. > In some cases multiple congregations of different persuasions used the > same > meeting houses. > > Search for more info on the Keithian split from the Quakers circa 1690's > to > early 1700's and you'll find a lot of info connecting the congregations of > Quaker and Baptist churches. The first Quaker schism resulted in Keithian > separatists falling out of the Quakers and many became Baptists. > > Great Valley Baptist is one of at least two churches in the area said to > be > founded in part by ex-Quakers who embraced the Baptist faith. > > Some links below to more info on the early Keithian Quaker schism and the > connections to the Baptists may offer some more insight on this topic of > Baptists and Quakers. > > A short history of schism in the Friends in America > http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/fracture.html offers some insight on Keith > and the Keithians. > > I've also added quotes from some of the other links to illustrate some of > the relevance of the URLs below. > > <http://www.reformedreader.org/history/christian/ahob2/chapter05.htm> > "Thus have we seen that the Keithian Quakers ended in a kind of > transformation into Keithian Baptists; they were also called Quaker > Baptists, because they still retained the language, dress and manners of > Quakers. We have seen also, that the Keithian or Quaker Baptists ended in > another kind of transformation into seventh-day Baptists, though some went > among the first-day Baptists and other societies. However, these were the > beginning of the Sabbatarians in Pennsylvania. " > > http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/keith1.html > "The greatest trend was towards the Baptists, but a number, after being > immersed, were keepers of Saturday as the day of rest and worship, and > joined the Seventh Day Baptists. ... and most of the other Keithians of > Southampton sooner or later joined Pennypack Baptist Church. ... From the > Welsh Tract Church, missions and perhaps emigrants founded several > congregations, among them that of the Great Valley (in Tredyffrin > Township, > Chester Co.), instituted in 1711 with Rev. Hugh Davis, an ordained > minister > from Wales. The Pennypack Church died out, and the views and practices of > the Welsh Tract people spread through the Baptist denominations of Penn's > colony." > > http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/keith1.html > "This Upper Providence congregation split on the question of the Sabbath, > and dissolved. However, those who favored keeping Sunday were gathered > together about 1715 by Rev. Abel Morgan, and, in 1718, built a > meeting-house > in Birmingham Township, bearing the name of Brandywine Baptist Church. The > Sabbatarians, on the other hand, united at Newtown. In 1717, a number took > up considerable land between Brandywine and French Creek, and, reinforced > by > some seceders from the Great Valley Baptist Church, this congregation, > called Nantmeal, became a strong one." > > <http://www.reformedreader.org/history/benedict/baptistdenomination/pennsylv > ania.htm> > ..."Pennepek, or Lower Dublin Church. -- This is now the oldest church in > Pennsylvania, as the one gathered by Mr. Dungan was broken up in 1702. > ... > "Reverend Evan Morgan, who came to this country very early, and was a man > of > piety and parts. He broke off from the Quakers along with many others of > Mr. > Keith's party in 1691; was baptized in 1697, by one Thomas Butter, and the > same year, renouncing the reliques of Quakerism, was received into the > church. In 1702, he was called to the ministry, and ordained October 23, > 1706, by Reverend Messrs. Thomas Griffith and Thomas Killingsworth. > ... > "The place where these people met, at first, was the corner of Second > Street > and Chesnut Street, known by the name of Barbadoes lot. The building was a > storehouse; but when the Barbadoes company left the place, the Baptists > held > their meetings there. So also did the Presbyterians, when either a Baptist > or Presbyterian minister happened to be in town; for as yet neither had > any > settled among them." > > http://www.yourbrotherkings.com/?m=200606 > "Able Noble is claimed to have been the first Seventh-Day Baptist in > Pennsylvania, and to have arrived in 1684. His name is among the > forty-eight > who signed the reasons for the Keithian separation. That he signed this > paper is evidence that the had been a Friend, to which may be added his > marriage at Darby Meeting, in 1692, to Mary Garrett, a member thereof." > > "John Hannum and eighteen others, on October 12th, 1697, incorporated and > proceeded to choose a minister by lot, which fell to Thomas Martin, who > the > same day administered to them the Lord's Supper for the first time. From > that day forth other Keithian Quakers were baptized." > > "George Keith afterwards became an Episcopal minister, and many of his > followers adopted the same faith; among them were John Hannum and his wife > Margery." > > "The building of St. Paul's Church at Chester, Pa., was completed in July, > 1702, and on Sunday, January 24th, 1703 (new style), St. Paul's day, the > ediface was opened to public worship, Rev. John Talbot preaching the first > sermon. Rev. George Keith preached there on February 7th and August 3rd, > 1703, and afterwards." > > > In contrast to the Quaker -> Keithian -> Baptist movements most of the > above > discuss, here is an example offered of some of the Gwynedd Welsh > (presumably > Baptists) who were drawn in by the Quakers. > > http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/pa/philadelphia/areahistory/watson0204. > txt > GWYNEDD --- in MONTGOMERY COUNTY > > "The late venerable Jesse Foulke stated, in substance, the following > facts > concerning what he knew of the settlement of Gwynedd, to wit : -- > In the year 1698, the township was purchased of William Penn, by William, > John, and Thomas Evans, and distributed among original settlers, to wit : > William, John, Thomas, Robert, Owen and Cadwallader Evans, Hugh Griffiths, > Edward Foulke, Robert Jones, John Hughs, and John Humphreys. Only the two > eldest were then Friends -- all were Welshmen; and all, except the two > Friends were churchmen. These held their meetings at Robert Evans'; and > there Cadwallader Evans was in the practice to read from the Bible to the > people. > But as Cadwallader Evans himself related, he was going as usual to his > brother Robert's when, passing near to the road to Friends' meeting, held > at > John Hughs' and John Humphreys', it seemed as if he was impressed "to go > down and see how the Quakers do". This he mentioned to his friends at the > close of his own meeting, and they all agreed to go to the Friends the > next > time; and where they were all so well satisfied, that they never again met > in their own worship." > > > > As an aside, I found an article that details the history of the early PA > Welsh land and how this territory was split into two counties against the > wishes of the Welsh. I recommend this article by Wayland F. Dunaway, > "Early > Welsh Settlers of Pennsylvania", to anyone interested the PA Welsh > history. > I've excerpted a quote below that seems particularly relevant to the > Chester > list. > > <http://cip.cornell.edu/Dienst/UI/1.0/Summarize/psu.ph/1129767104> > "They were a peaceable folk, and what little civil authority was needed > was exercised through their Quaker meetings. This system came to > an end in 1690, not because the Welsh wished it but because out- > side forces changed it. It had been the understanding of the Welsh > that their barony would lie in one undivided tract, not subject to > division into municipal districts; but in 1685 the provincial au- > thorities ran a division line between Philadelphia and Chester > Counties, thereby dividing the Welsh Tract. Furthermore, in 1690 > the civil authority exercised by the Quaker meetings was abolished > in the three townships of Haverford, Merion, and Radnor, and in > its stead the regular township government was established; and, > as the population increased, other townships were created within > the barony with similar government. The Welsh contended that this > was contrary to their understanding with Penn, and insisted that, > if there were to be any townships at all, their barony should con- > stitute only one municipal district, in which they should select their > own officers from among themselves and should collect their own > taxes. But this arrangement did not appear to the representatives > of Penn to be feasible; hence the barony was divided into town- > ships, as was customary elsewhere throughout the province. To > the Welsh, however, who claimed that this was in violation of their > agreement with the proprietary, the new arrangement was a real > grievance against which they protested stoutly. They objected also > to the placing of their tract partly in one county and partly in an- > other, which was accomplished by the running of the division line > between Philadelphia and Chester Counties, and the consequent > transference of the townships of Haverford and Radnor from the > former to the latter county. As other Welsh settlers came in, addi- > tional townships were created in the barony, which was settled > rapidly. The Welsh at first stood on what they conceived to be > their rights, protesting against the division of their tract by county > and township lines and refusing to recognize the validity of the > municipal arrangements to which they were subjected. By 1690, > however, they had discovered the hopelessness of their struggle > against the provincial authorities, and submitted with as good a > grace as possible to conditions which they were powerless to > resist. " > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PA-OLD-CHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Thank you so much, Mal and Sandra, for all the good information and references concerning Baptists and Quakers. My particular case is that members of two generations were disowned by their Meetings for marriages to Baptists. albeit they were mother and daughter. The first was David Stephens, a birthright Quaker, who married Elizabeth Evans and was read out of Radnor MM in about 1756, and the second was Jacob Richardson, who married their daughter, Eleanor, in 1770 and was read out of Gwynedd MM 28 Jul 1772. Eleanor Stephens Richardson's death is recorded by the Great Valley Baptist Church in Early Chester County Church Records Vol. 3. Jacob and Eleanor's son, William, married Hannah Jones (a daughter of Abraham Jones, a birthright member of Gwynedd MM, but as an adult mentioned in their Men's Minutes as being not in Unity, though I have no record of him being read out) in the First Baptist Church of Philadelphia 23 Apr 1801. Thanks to all the fascinating historical information that you have given me and pointed me to and to the apparent involvement of members of my family in it, it is difficult to resist getting lost in the setting instead of keeping a balance between it and the individuals I am trying to find in it. One such individual is Marcy Unknown, the wife of Abraham Jones and the mother of Hannah Jones Richardson. She was born about 1760, married Abraham Jones about 1777, had seven children (Josiah, 1779; Hannah, 1781; Ann, 1784; Isreal (sic), Jan 1787; John, Nov 1787; Rosannah, 1789; and Margret, 1794), and died in 1794 in Upper Merion, Montgomery County PA. I cannot find her maiden name or birthplace. I thought Marcy might possibly have been her last name and googled for it under the Marcy family. It seems there were a lot of Marcys near Wilkes Barre and Scranton and that one of them was named Rosanna, not a very common name, but one also held by Hannah Jones Richardson's sister. So I have not abandoned this possibility, but do not know where to go next with it. With great appreciation for your help, Mary Arnett >From: "Mal Humes" <mal3@mal.net> >To: <PA-Old-Chester-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 1:26 PM >Subject: [PaOldC] early PA Quaker & Baptists connections, Quaker >Baptists,and Keithians > > > > >Since I think it is virtually certain that Griffith Evan was not a > > >Quaker, > >>but a Baptist, I have been trying to read up on the early days of the > >>Baptist Church - and to the cooperation and development of Quakers and > >>Baptists in the Welsh Tract and throughout the 18th century. > > > > I would not assume that because one ancestor was known to have attended >a > > certain church at a certain time that this defines the person or family >as > > definitively of one faith or sect. > > > > I'd be especially careful making assumptions that certain Welsh settlers > > were not Quaker because they were Baptist and vice versa. Keep in mind > > that > > the area was founded in a time of religious conversions and that by 1700 > > few > > Quakers had been Quakers for more than even a generation or two. Later > > waves > > of religious conversion followed with Methodists, Rappists (Harmonists), > > the > > rise of the Presbyterian church in the US, the Swedenborg church >movement. > > In some cases multiple congregations of different persuasions used the > > same > > meeting houses. > > > > Search for more info on the Keithian split from the Quakers circa 1690's > > to > > early 1700's and you'll find a lot of info connecting the congregations >of > > Quaker and Baptist churches. The first Quaker schism resulted in >Keithian > > separatists falling out of the Quakers and many became Baptists. > > > > Great Valley Baptist is one of at least two churches in the area said to > > be > > founded in part by ex-Quakers who embraced the Baptist faith. > > > > Some links below to more info on the early Keithian Quaker schism and >the > > connections to the Baptists may offer some more insight on this topic of > > Baptists and Quakers. > > > > A short history of schism in the Friends in America > > http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/fracture.html offers some insight on >Keith > > and the Keithians. > > > > I've also added quotes from some of the other links to illustrate some >of > > the relevance of the URLs below. > > > > <http://www.reformedreader.org/history/christian/ahob2/chapter05.htm> > > "Thus have we seen that the Keithian Quakers ended in a kind of > > transformation into Keithian Baptists; they were also called Quaker > > Baptists, because they still retained the language, dress and manners of > > Quakers. We have seen also, that the Keithian or Quaker Baptists ended >in > > another kind of transformation into seventh-day Baptists, though some >went > > among the first-day Baptists and other societies. However, these were >the > > beginning of the Sabbatarians in Pennsylvania. " > > > > http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/keith1.html > > "The greatest trend was towards the Baptists, but a number, after being > > immersed, were keepers of Saturday as the day of rest and worship, and > > joined the Seventh Day Baptists. ... and most of the other Keithians of > > Southampton sooner or later joined Pennypack Baptist Church. ... From >the > > Welsh Tract Church, missions and perhaps emigrants founded several > > congregations, among them that of the Great Valley (in Tredyffrin > > Township, > > Chester Co.), instituted in 1711 with Rev. Hugh Davis, an ordained > > minister > > from Wales. The Pennypack Church died out, and the views and practices >of > > the Welsh Tract people spread through the Baptist denominations of >Penn's > > colony." > > > > http://www.strecorsoc.org/docs/keith1.html > > "This Upper Providence congregation split on the question of the >Sabbath, > > and dissolved. However, those who favored keeping Sunday were gathered > > together about 1715 by Rev. Abel Morgan, and, in 1718, built a > > meeting-house > > in Birmingham Township, bearing the name of Brandywine Baptist Church. >The > > Sabbatarians, on the other hand, united at Newtown. In 1717, a number >took > > up considerable land between Brandywine and French Creek, and, >reinforced > > by > > some seceders from the Great Valley Baptist Church, this congregation, > > called Nantmeal, became a strong one." > > > > ><http://www.reformedreader.org/history/benedict/baptistdenomination/pennsylv > > ania.htm> > > ..."Pennepek, or Lower Dublin Church. -- This is now the oldest church >in > > Pennsylvania, as the one gathered by Mr. Dungan was broken up in 1702. > > ... > > "Reverend Evan Morgan, who came to this country very early, and was a >man > > of > > piety and parts. He broke off from the Quakers along with many others of > > Mr. > > Keith's party in 1691; was baptized in 1697, by one Thomas Butter, and >the > > same year, renouncing the reliques of Quakerism, was received into the > > church. In 1702, he was called to the ministry, and ordained October 23, > > 1706, by Reverend Messrs. Thomas Griffith and Thomas Killingsworth. > > ... > > "The place where these people met, at first, was the corner of Second > > Street > > and Chesnut Street, known by the name of Barbadoes lot. The building was >a > > storehouse; but when the Barbadoes company left the place, the Baptists > > held > > their meetings there. So also did the Presbyterians, when either a >Baptist > > or Presbyterian minister happened to be in town; for as yet neither had > > any > > settled among them." > > > > http://www.yourbrotherkings.com/?m=200606 > > "Able Noble is claimed to have been the first Seventh-Day Baptist in > > Pennsylvania, and to have arrived in 1684. His name is among the > > forty-eight > > who signed the reasons for the Keithian separation. That he signed this > > paper is evidence that the had been a Friend, to which may be added his > > marriage at Darby Meeting, in 1692, to Mary Garrett, a member thereof." > > > > "John Hannum and eighteen others, on October 12th, 1697, incorporated >and > > proceeded to choose a minister by lot, which fell to Thomas Martin, who > > the > > same day administered to them the Lord's Supper for the first time. From > > that day forth other Keithian Quakers were baptized." > > > > "George Keith afterwards became an Episcopal minister, and many of his > > followers adopted the same faith; among them were John Hannum and his >wife > > Margery." > > > > "The building of St. Paul's Church at Chester, Pa., was completed in >July, > > 1702, and on Sunday, January 24th, 1703 (new style), St. Paul's day, the > > ediface was opened to public worship, Rev. John Talbot preaching the >first > > sermon. Rev. George Keith preached there on February 7th and August 3rd, > > 1703, and afterwards." > > > > > > In contrast to the Quaker -> Keithian -> Baptist movements most of the > > above > > discuss, here is an example offered of some of the Gwynedd Welsh > > (presumably > > Baptists) who were drawn in by the Quakers. > > > > >http://ftp.rootsweb.com/pub/usgenweb/pa/philadelphia/areahistory/watson0204. > > txt > > GWYNEDD --- in MONTGOMERY COUNTY > > > > "The late venerable Jesse Foulke stated, in substance, the following > > facts > > concerning what he knew of the settlement of Gwynedd, to wit : -- > > In the year 1698, the township was purchased of William Penn, by >William, > > John, and Thomas Evans, and distributed among original settlers, to wit >: > > William, John, Thomas, Robert, Owen and Cadwallader Evans, Hugh >Griffiths, > > Edward Foulke, Robert Jones, John Hughs, and John Humphreys. Only the >two > > eldest were then Friends -- all were Welshmen; and all, except the two > > Friends were churchmen. These held their meetings at Robert Evans'; and > > there Cadwallader Evans was in the practice to read from the Bible to >the > > people. > > But as Cadwallader Evans himself related, he was going as usual to his > > brother Robert's when, passing near to the road to Friends' meeting, >held > > at > > John Hughs' and John Humphreys', it seemed as if he was impressed "to go > > down and see how the Quakers do". This he mentioned to his friends at >the > > close of his own meeting, and they all agreed to go to the Friends the > > next > > time; and where they were all so well satisfied, that they never again >met > > in their own worship." > > > > > > > > As an aside, I found an article that details the history of the early PA > > Welsh land and how this territory was split into two counties against >the > > wishes of the Welsh. I recommend this article by Wayland F. Dunaway, > > "Early > > Welsh Settlers of Pennsylvania", to anyone interested the PA Welsh > > history. > > I've excerpted a quote below that seems particularly relevant to the > > Chester > > list. > > > > <http://cip.cornell.edu/Dienst/UI/1.0/Summarize/psu.ph/1129767104> > > "They were a peaceable folk, and what little civil authority was needed > > was exercised through their Quaker meetings. This system came to > > an end in 1690, not because the Welsh wished it but because out- > > side forces changed it. It had been the understanding of the Welsh > > that their barony would lie in one undivided tract, not subject to > > division into municipal districts; but in 1685 the provincial au- > > thorities ran a division line between Philadelphia and Chester > > Counties, thereby dividing the Welsh Tract. Furthermore, in 1690 > > the civil authority exercised by the Quaker meetings was abolished > > in the three townships of Haverford, Merion, and Radnor, and in > > its stead the regular township government was established; and, > > as the population increased, other townships were created within > > the barony with similar government. The Welsh contended that this > > was contrary to their understanding with Penn, and insisted that, > > if there were to be any townships at all, their barony should con- > > stitute only one municipal district, in which they should select their > > own officers from among themselves and should collect their own > > taxes. But this arrangement did not appear to the representatives > > of Penn to be feasible; hence the barony was divided into town- > > ships, as was customary elsewhere throughout the province. To > > the Welsh, however, who claimed that this was in violation of their > > agreement with the proprietary, the new arrangement was a real > > grievance against which they protested stoutly. They objected also > > to the placing of their tract partly in one county and partly in an- > > other, which was accomplished by the running of the division line > > between Philadelphia and Chester Counties, and the consequent > > transference of the townships of Haverford and Radnor from the > > former to the latter county. As other Welsh settlers came in, addi- > > tional townships were created in the barony, which was settled > > rapidly. The Welsh at first stood on what they conceived to be > > their rights, protesting against the division of their tract by county > > and township lines and refusing to recognize the validity of the > > municipal arrangements to which they were subjected. By 1690, > > however, they had discovered the hopelessness of their struggle > > against the provincial authorities, and submitted with as good a > > grace as possible to conditions which they were powerless to > > resist. " > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PA-OLD-CHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >PA-OLD-CHESTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more…then map the best route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001