Thank you for the information, James. I have your book and use it, but still need to keep referring to it for information that has not registered in my mind. I had not realised before reading the session minutes, that there were legal requirements for registration, and now understand that these went back for centuries, although apparently they were a toothless tiger for impoverished families, as most of mine would have been! The sanction from the session would, I suspect, have been much more powerful. I had also recognised the impact of the various dissenting and schismatic groups within the church, and have been attempting to get a grasp of the scale of this. Some of the figures of the breakaway numbers are mind-boggling, when one considers the impact on a parish based society. I had assumed that fees were levied by the minister for conducting the ceremony and by the session clerk for recording it. The beadle is a new one on me. I have come across the office in Dickens etc., but not in Scotland. I have now looked up the definition but do not recall any reference to the office in any session minutes I have read so far. Oh for those missing records. Robert Slater

A Beadle was simply Parish official employed in the church to usher and keep order and help the minister. So there would have been a few of them around. Willie Sinclair 2008/11/4 Lisa Conrad <nisus00@earthlink.net>: > I think beadles were common in Scotland. I don't see why they wouldn't > be. That is, I have *at least* one among my Orcadian ancestors (or > ancestral collateral cousins). This was Samuel FLAWS, spouse of Helen > BUDGE, of South Ronaldsay. > ------------------ > List Archives, information on contacting list administrator, Subscribing and UnSubscribing can be found at: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/ORKNEY.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORKNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I think beadles were common in Scotland. I don't see why they wouldn't be. That is, I have *at least* one among my Orcadian ancestors (or ancestral collateral cousins). This was Samuel FLAWS, spouse of Helen BUDGE, of South Ronaldsay.

Hi everyone. I would like to ask a favour of you all. I would appreciate if anyone could provide me with pictures of various areas of South Ronaldsay for the website. I would really welcome pictures of the following: Kirkhouse East Side. Gairth, Newbigging farm in Widewall Herston South End and (West End) Store House (I do not know if this is an address or if it has been spelt properly) Millhouse Any or all pictures of the farms or areas, would be appreciated and all contributors will be mentioned. Willie Sinclair

I had assumed that the registration of births with the Church was never legally required and that any compulsory registration in Scotland only came into force in 1854. I was surprised by an entry in the Kirkwall Cathedral Session minutes in 1837 "The Session Clerk stated that many parents in the parish neglect the Registration of the Births and Baptisms of their children whereby the Register is rendered defective and both he and the Beadle are deprived of their legal dues. The Session considering said statement and being desirous that the Register should be correctly kept appoint the Clerk and Beadle to print and issue an advertisement stating their determination that all concerned should comply with the law in this respect, and pointing out the evils resulting to the parties themselves from neglecting it." Would "the law" referred to, be Civil Law or Canon Law? Robert Slater

Robert, I think there is a bit of early "spin" here. There had been many Acts by the Scottish Parliament, as late as 1820, requiring baptisms and marriages to be recorded in church registers, but these acts were not enforced, and non-compliance was not punishable. It was also "legal" for ministers, clerks and beadles etc to levy charges (though whether for the ceremony, the registration or both I'm not sure). What had possibly brought the issue to the surface at this time was the anomaly that existed from 1837 that registration was compulsory in England but not in Scotland, and perhaps the church authorities recognised that if they did not succeed in enforcing registration in church registers, state registration would be enacted in Scotland as well - as it was in 1854. James Irvine > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 11:41:00 +1030 > From: "Robert SLATER" <rsla8999@bigpond.net.au> > Subject: [ORKNEY] Compulsory Registration of Births pre 1854 > To: <ORKNEY@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <000901c93d51$08f24430$1ad6cc90$@net.au> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I had assumed that the registration of births with the Church was never > legally required and that any compulsory registration in Scotland only > came > into force in 1854. > > I was surprised by an entry in the Kirkwall Cathedral Session minutes in > 1837 > > "The Session Clerk stated that many parents in the parish neglect the > Registration of the Births and Baptisms of their children whereby the > Register is rendered defective and both he and the Beadle are deprived of > their legal dues. The Session considering said statement and being > desirous that the Register should be correctly kept appoint the Clerk and > Beadle to print and issue an advertisement stating their determination > that > all concerned should comply with the law in this respect, and pointing out > the evils resulting to the parties themselves from neglecting it." > > Would "the law" referred to, be Civil Law or Canon Law? > > Robert Slater

The replies to date have touched upon most of the reasons for apparently unrecorded marriages, but perhaps do not convey an overall impression. I believe for the two decades or so before compulsory registration 1855 the most common cause of omission from the Church of Scotland registers (and hence from the indexes of Scotlandspeople, IGI, Walt Cusiter and Mike Bostwick) was the fragmentation of the church in Scotland. In 1854 the Church of Scotland had 22 congregations in Orkney but there were another 40 or so other congregations! Within each parish all these congregations used the same burial ground, and some dissenting congregations used the Church of Scotland registers, but many did not. Pre-1855 dissenting/free church registers survive for Firth, Harray, Kirkwall/St.Ola, N.Ronaldsay, Orphir, St.Andrews, Sanday, Sandwick, S.Ronaldsay, Stromness and Stronsay. These registers are held in The Orkney Archive, and microfilms in the National Archive. Before the 1830s the most common cause of non-recording, real or apparent, was that many registers were defective, i.e. ceremonies took place but were not recorded (we can see this from the gaps and non-consecutive features of the registers), and many earlier registers have been lost. But records of some marriages, and contracts for marriage, do survive in the Kirk Session minutes and in the Sheriff Court Records. More details in my book "Trace Your Orkney Ancestors"! James Irvine > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robert SLATER > To: ORKNEY@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:56 PM > Subject: [ORKNEY] Marriage by "Habit and Repute" > > > I seem to be having a very bad run in attempting to locate Orkney > marriages > in the period 1750 to 1850 in the Old Parish Records. At the moment I > am > scoring well below 50%, and probably below 25%, even of those for whom > later > records (of baptisms) indicate that the parents were married. > > Is this a case of lost records, although the gaps are not apparent, > > just bad record keeping, although the baptisms seem to be much better, or > > were there just a high percentage of marriages by habit and repute? > > Robert Slater > >

My interest is in the origins and family of James SLATER and Robina(h) MUIR. My progress has been slow, as some of the earlier research seems to have been flawed, and I am now only reasonably confident back to James SLATER (probably born either 1757 to James SLATTER and Elspeth CRAIGIE , or just possibly born in 1748 to James SLATTER and Elisabeth LAING) and Robina(h) MUIR. At this stage the 1757 date looks much more likely, not only because the timing seems better, but the family of James SLATTER and Elisabeth LAING looks to be along a different line. I have not been able to identify anything about Robina prior to their marriage. James and Robina had five children. Ann(e) was born March 13, 1786, and seems to have married Richard HAY, a widower, and died in 1869 at Cott, Lady Parish. James was born December 19, 1787. Did he marry Margaret SINCLAIR, or possibly Jean GRAY? Elizabeth was born on July 24, 1789. Did she marry Stephen MUIR? William born June 3, 1793 presumably died before 1799, and the birth of the second William on December 27, 1799. This William married Jean/Jane GUTHRIE (daughter of William GUTHRIE and Jean CROMARTY?) on December 5, 1822. >From there the documentation is fairly sound. Their six children were born in Sanday. The family moved to Mainland soon after the birth of the youngest child in 1839. In the 1850's the family emigrated to South Australia. Any help, positive (or negative in ruling out some of the alternatives) gratefully received. Robert Slater

THESE ARE MY ONLY SLATERS. ANYBODY CONNECT?? bLAKE Descendants of Stanley SLATER 1 Stanley SLATER +Shirley Ann ADAMS b: 29 Jan 1940 Father: Gordon Hubert ADAMS Mother: Clela (KROCK) ADAMS 2 Debra Ann SLATER b: 8 Feb 1957 2 Randolph J. SLATER b: 5 Dec 1959

Hi Robert I am also looking for info on the Slater's from Sanday mine is Janet Slater , on her death cert it says her parents were James Slater and Jane Muir. Janet married John Foulis in 1834 in Kirkwall. Its her Parents that I have hit a brick wall with I just cant seem to find anything on either a marriage or census records. On Janets marriage cert it says her witnesses were James Slater & Robert Slater they could possibly be her brothers?. Janet was born around 1809 in Sanday going by her age when she died. Maybe you might of come across something in your research. Any help, gratefully received. ======================================== Message Received: Nov 02 2008, 11:54 AM From: "Robert SLATER" To: ORKNEY@rootsweb.com Cc: Subject: [ORKNEY] SLATER family My interest is in the origins and family of James SLATER and Robina(h) MUIR. My progress has been slow, as some of the earlier research seems to have been flawed, and I am now only reasonably confident back to James SLATER (probably born either 1757 to James SLATTER and Elspeth CRAIGIE , or just possibly born in 1748 to James SLATTER and Elisabeth LAING) and Robina(h) MUIR. At this stage the 1757 date looks much more likely, not only because the timing seems better, but the family of James SLATTER and Elisabeth LAING looks to be along a different line. I have not been able to identify anything about Robina prior to their marriage. James and Robina had five children. Ann(e) was born March 13, 1786, and seems to have married Richard HAY, a widower, and died in 1869 at Cott, Lady Parish. James was born December 19, 1787. Did he marry Margaret SINCLAIR, or possibly Jean GRAY? Elizabeth was born on July 24, 1789. Did she marry Stephen MUIR? William born June 3, 1793 presumably died before 1799, and the birth of the second William on December 27, 1799. This William married Jean/Jane GUTHRIE (daughter of William GUTHRIE and Jean CROMARTY?) on December 5, 1822. >From there the documentation is fairly sound. Their six children were born in Sanday. The family moved to Mainland soon after the birth of the youngest child in 1839. In the 1850's the family emigrated to South Australia. Robert Slater ------------------ List Archives, information on contacting list administrator, Subscribing and UnSubscribing can be found at: http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/ORKNEY.html ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORKNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi- I have JANNET SLATER m JOHN THOMSON- they lived in Kirkwall in 1830s- he is bro to my 4 x gr gf THOMAS THOMSON who m ELIZABETH BURGAR and emigrated to Nova Scotia ca 1800- I have a letter from Kirkwall dated 1832 fro Jannet & John to THomas- John was a shoemaker. He and Jannet have a tombstone at St Magnus chyard. Have not beeen able to determine Jannet's origins-possibly Sanday ?? cheers, Dutch Thompson in PEI Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "ELIZABETH FOULIS" <thistle@deks.freeserve.co.uk> To: <orkney@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2008 9:30 AM Subject: Re: [ORKNEY] SLATER family > > Hi Robert > I am also looking for info on the Slater's from Sanday mine is Janet > Slater , on her death cert it says her parents were James Slater and Jane > Muir. Janet married John Foulis in 1834 in Kirkwall. Its her Parents that > I have hit a brick wall with I just cant seem to find anything on either a > marriage or census records. On Janets marriage cert it says her witnesses > were James Slater & Robert Slater they could possibly be her brothers?. > Janet was born around 1809 in Sanday going by her age when she died. > Maybe you might of come across something in your research. Any help, > gratefully received. > > > > > > > ======================================== > Message Received: Nov 02 2008, 11:54 AM > From: "Robert SLATER" > To: ORKNEY@rootsweb.com > Cc: > Subject: [ORKNEY] SLATER family > > > My interest is in the origins and family of James SLATER and Robina(h) > MUIR. > > > > My progress has been slow, as some of the earlier research seems to have > been flawed, and I am now only reasonably confident back to James SLATER > (probably born either 1757 to James SLATTER and Elspeth CRAIGIE , or just > possibly born in 1748 to James SLATTER and Elisabeth LAING) and Robina(h) > MUIR. At this stage the 1757 date looks much more likely, not only because > the timing seems better, but the family of James SLATTER and Elisabeth > LAING > looks to be along a different line. > > > > I have not been able to identify anything about Robina prior to their > marriage. > > > > James and Robina had five children. > > Ann(e) was born March 13, 1786, and seems to have married Richard HAY, a > widower, and died in 1869 at Cott, Lady Parish. > > James was born December 19, 1787. Did he marry Margaret SINCLAIR, or > possibly Jean GRAY? > > Elizabeth was born on July 24, 1789. Did she marry Stephen MUIR? > > William born June 3, 1793 presumably died before 1799, and the birth of > the > second William on December 27, 1799. This William married Jean/Jane > GUTHRIE (daughter of William GUTHRIE and Jean CROMARTY?) on December 5, > 1822. > >>From there the documentation is fairly sound. Their six children were > born in Sanday. The family moved to Mainland soon after the birth of the > youngest child in 1839. In the 1850's the family emigrated to South > Australia. > > > > > > > > Robert Slater > > > > ------------------ > List Archives, information on contacting list administrator, Subscribing > and UnSubscribing can be found at: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/ORKNEY.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ORKNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------ > List Archives, information on contacting list administrator, Subscribing > and UnSubscribing can be found at: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/ORKNEY.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ORKNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Have done a lot of work on SAnday Slaters -Slatter,. Sclater, Sclaitter. etc I am a Sanday born Slater ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert SLATER" <rsla8999@bigpond.net.au> To: <ORKNEY@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2008 12:44 PM Subject: [ORKNEY] Marriage by "Habit and Repute" > "What names are you looking for? > > > > Have you tried Walt Cusiter's site or Lisa Conrad's site at > SouthRonaldsay.net > > > > Willie Sinclair" > > > > Thanks for the response. > > At the moment I am again looking for SLATER and its variants. > > I have certainly consulted/used Lisa Conrad's, Walt Cusiter's, Mike > Bostwick's and the Scotlandspeople sites. Earlier today I went back to > the > Scotlandspeople site and found, almost by accident, the listing of the > dates > for their records. I knew I had seen it before, but could not find it > when > I was searching recently. This indicated that there were virtually no > marriage records for Sanday before 1820, and North Ronaldsay is just about > as poorly served. Kirkwall and St Andrews are much better off. That > explains my main dilemma, so that problem will continue to be a major > hurdle > for me. > > > > The other question remains, now a little more of an interest puzzle in > understanding the time. It seems that in the period 1750 to 1850, > despite > the travel difficulties, ministers were fairly readily available, as most > children seemed to be baptised within a few days of their birth. So in > most cases the availability of a minister to conduct the ceremony seems > not > to be an issue. Reading the Kirk Session Minutes certainly gives the > impression that living together without a formal marriage contract and > ceremony would not have been accepted by the church, and would bring > significant censure within the community, despite the legal issues. (I > must do some more reading on the place of, and relationship between, the > Marriage Contact and the marriage ceremony - any suggestions?). > > > > Have any of you found any of your relatives in this time period apparently > declaring marriage "by habit and repute". > > Robert Slater > > > > ------------------ > List Archives, information on contacting list administrator, Subscribing > and UnSubscribing can be found at: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/ORKNEY.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ORKNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.5/1759 - Release Date: 31/10/2008 16:10

Do you know the parents of your Peter Sinclair? I am wondering if we may have a common Orcadian Sinclair connection. Marilyn **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)

Cecil Sinclair, the Scottish Archivist, believed that is my line of Sinclairs (John and Barbara Annal, James and Barbara Groat, Robert and Mary S. Allan, Alexander and Mary Ann Mainland to my grandmother Mildred Sinclair. If he could not find any more publicly held info, it will be hard to find and likely privately held. If anyone has anything, would love to share. I have pictures of the ruins of the home at Serrigar taken in May and another batch of pictures taken years ago. I am drawn to the place. The view, overlooking Swona, is incredible! Marilyn In a message dated 10/29/2008 10:57:32 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, rballan@shaw.ca writes: Would like to find more re ; Barbara ANNAL (b abt 1753-d 17 Apr 1833) and her husband John SINCLAIR (1752?-d Aft 1821) married abt 1775 at Sandwick, South Ronaldsay, had 6 children: John abt 1778, Barbara 1780?, Betty 1786?, Anne 1786, James (18 Jul 1789), Isabella.1795? BLAKE ALLAN **************Plan your next getaway with AOL Travel. Check out Today's Hot 5 Travel Deals! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1212416248x1200771803/aol?redir=http://travel.aol.com/discount-travel?ncid=emlcntustrav00000001)

G'day Robert, Scottish Marriage Registers are more orientated to the marriage contract (ie the Banns in England) than the marriage itself which is one reason why there are less records. Another reason is that "Hand-festing" was recognized by the State but not by the Church as a legal form of marriage. As a result the marriage may not have occurred in Church and thus no record kept in the church registers. Legal recognition to hand-fasted marriages was only withdrawn in 1939. David Armstrong Maylands, Western Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert SLATER To: ORKNEY@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2008 6:56 PM Subject: [ORKNEY] Marriage by "Habit and Repute" I seem to be having a very bad run in attempting to locate Orkney marriages in the period 1750 to 1850 in the Old Parish Records. At the moment I am scoring well below 50%, and probably below 25%, even of those for whom later records (of baptisms) indicate that the parents were married. Is this a case of lost records, although the gaps are not apparent, just bad record keeping, although the baptisms seem to be much better, or were there just a high percentage of marriages by habit and repute? Robert Slater

"What names are you looking for? Have you tried Walt Cusiter's site or Lisa Conrad's site at SouthRonaldsay.net Willie Sinclair" Thanks for the response. At the moment I am again looking for SLATER and its variants. I have certainly consulted/used Lisa Conrad's, Walt Cusiter's, Mike Bostwick's and the Scotlandspeople sites. Earlier today I went back to the Scotlandspeople site and found, almost by accident, the listing of the dates for their records. I knew I had seen it before, but could not find it when I was searching recently. This indicated that there were virtually no marriage records for Sanday before 1820, and North Ronaldsay is just about as poorly served. Kirkwall and St Andrews are much better off. That explains my main dilemma, so that problem will continue to be a major hurdle for me. The other question remains, now a little more of an interest puzzle in understanding the time. It seems that in the period 1750 to 1850, despite the travel difficulties, ministers were fairly readily available, as most children seemed to be baptised within a few days of their birth. So in most cases the availability of a minister to conduct the ceremony seems not to be an issue. Reading the Kirk Session Minutes certainly gives the impression that living together without a formal marriage contract and ceremony would not have been accepted by the church, and would bring significant censure within the community, despite the legal issues. (I must do some more reading on the place of, and relationship between, the Marriage Contact and the marriage ceremony - any suggestions?). Have any of you found any of your relatives in this time period apparently declaring marriage "by habit and repute". Robert Slater

This book can be found on the internet to rad at: http://books.google.com/books?id=vj0PAAAAYAAJ&printsec=titlepage&dq=Sorquoy+Sinclair%27s Willie Sinclair

High Charlie Below is a link to another forum where the person was looking for contact with anyone looking for Slater's from Sanday. It was posted in 2005 so I do not know if it is still working. I am registered for this forum and if you cannot make a reply to the message, I will post them your e-mail address and see if they conatct you. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=357589ba3c332bbd1dc0c71bd069b9e2&topic=39372.0 Willie 2008/10/31 Charlie Petersen <charliep@cablespeed.com>: > That is a very good point, Willie - a lot of mine did not have marriage > certificates or grave markers, but did show up in the census. We assume it > was lack of money and/or a minister. The first registered birth in my family > was in 1828, I think, on Burray. > > Charlie Petersen > > ------------------ > List Archives, information on contacting list administrator, Subscribing and UnSubscribing can be found at: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/ORKNEY.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORKNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am fortunate that most of my ancestors came from South Ronaldsay and Lisa Conrad had done most of the work for me already. Though my oldest Sinclair's have no record of their marriage or their childrens birth. There is also the possibility thay they were dissenters and did not want to pay the church to register the marriage or the biths as it cost money. Willie 2008/10/31 Robert SLATER <rsla8999@bigpond.net.au>: > "What names are you looking for? > > > > Have you tried Walt Cusiter's site or Lisa Conrad's site at > SouthRonaldsay.net > > > > Willie Sinclair" > > > > Thanks for the response. > > At the moment I am again looking for SLATER and its variants. > > I have certainly consulted/used Lisa Conrad's, Walt Cusiter's, Mike > Bostwick's and the Scotlandspeople sites. Earlier today I went back to the > Scotlandspeople site and found, almost by accident, the listing of the dates > for their records. I knew I had seen it before, but could not find it when > I was searching recently. This indicated that there were virtually no > marriage records for Sanday before 1820, and North Ronaldsay is just about > as poorly served. Kirkwall and St Andrews are much better off. That > explains my main dilemma, so that problem will continue to be a major hurdle > for me. > > > > The other question remains, now a little more of an interest puzzle in > understanding the time. It seems that in the period 1750 to 1850, despite > the travel difficulties, ministers were fairly readily available, as most > children seemed to be baptised within a few days of their birth. So in > most cases the availability of a minister to conduct the ceremony seems not > to be an issue. Reading the Kirk Session Minutes certainly gives the > impression that living together without a formal marriage contract and > ceremony would not have been accepted by the church, and would bring > significant censure within the community, despite the legal issues. (I > must do some more reading on the place of, and relationship between, the > Marriage Contact and the marriage ceremony - any suggestions?). > > > > Have any of you found any of your relatives in this time period apparently > declaring marriage "by habit and repute". > > Robert Slater > > > > ------------------ > List Archives, information on contacting list administrator, Subscribing and UnSubscribing can be found at: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/ORKNEY.html > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORKNEY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

That is a very good point, Willie - a lot of mine did not have marriage certificates or grave markers, but did show up in the census. We assume it was lack of money and/or a minister. The first registered birth in my family was in 1828, I think, on Burray. Charlie Petersen