AGREED. -----Original Message----- From: JGCorse@aol.com <JGCorse@aol.com> To: ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com <ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Saturday, May 22, 1999 10:00 AM Subject: Re: [ORKNEY-L] What do/did you call your grand-parents siblings? >I can't help wondering if you are trying to be too PC. Children always >manage to find a fitting name for grandparents according to their expertise >with pronunciation. Keep the "proper" names for the paper records. My >husband and I are simply Granny and Grampa and that suits us fine. > >My difficulty lies in the "modern" trend of calling people by their first >names when they are of an older generation. I always called my elders Mr. >and Mrs. unless they were close friends of my parents and then they became >Aunt and Uncle whether they were related or not. Both my sons-in-law call me >by my first name and I find it offensive although I've never told them so. >They both have living mothers but I called my mother-in-law Mother although >my own mother was alive. It never seemed to confuse anyone! Any suggestions? >

I can't help wondering if you are trying to be too PC. Children always manage to find a fitting name for grandparents according to their expertise with pronunciation. Keep the "proper" names for the paper records. My husband and I are simply Granny and Grampa and that suits us fine. My difficulty lies in the "modern" trend of calling people by their first names when they are of an older generation. I always called my elders Mr. and Mrs. unless they were close friends of my parents and then they became Aunt and Uncle whether they were related or not. Both my sons-in-law call me by my first name and I find it offensive although I've never told them so. They both have living mothers but I called my mother-in-law Mother although my own mother was alive. It never seemed to confuse anyone! Any suggestions?

This is a good Scottish Family Research Website. Has plenty of Links to other sites to help you with your Family Research. Researchers are also welcome to list other Links to this Website to help others with their Family Research. http://www.spiderweb.com.au/~frasbett Peter J. Fraser-Tibbett

Thanks to everyone who replied to my question re natural v. lawful births. Another thing I would like to know is via the reply of Norman Nicol who suggested looking at the Kirk Session Records of the Parish. Where does one find these Kirk Session Records? Are they available via the LDS libraries? Are they published or on microfilm and perhaps only available by going to the particular parish? The parish I am interested in is Walls and Flotta, Orkney. Thanks in anticipation, Jan, Canberra, Australia

Here in New Zealand the sisters and brothers of grandparents are simply known as Auntie or Uncle to all three or four generations in some cases. While grandmothers were differentiated by being Gran or Granny or Grandma, the Great grandmothers (great Grandma or even great great Grandma) was always just called Grandma to her face by all generations. Males were Grandad or Granpa, and then as the women. Alan Spence Auckland, New Zealand

In the Birsay records I have Spences who had both of these. Lawful was always to a married couple, natural was to a unmarried couple. Alan Spence Auckland, New Zealand

-----Original Message----- From: Robert Grant <grantos@ozemail.com.au> To: ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com <ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, 21 May 1999 21:35 Subject: [ORKNEY-L] OPR BIRTHS >In the Old Parish Registers of Births is there a difference between the >natural child of and the lawful child of and if so, what? > >Thanks, >Jan Jan Lawful is to a married couple, natural is to an unmarried couple. I have several instances of this in my Spence records in Birsay. Alan

Maternal Grandmother was Gran Maternal Grandfather - dead before we were old enough to know / name him Paternal Grandmother was Granny Paternal Grandfather was Grandpa Siblings of grandparents (both sides) were known as Great Aunt and Great Uncle and still are. My children enjoyed having two Great Grandmothers until last year. One was Great Gran, the other Great Granny. The complication arises here where the children find Great Great Aunt So and So is just too much of a mouthful! We have four of these left in our family. My seven year old gave up and tried her own version - Great Granny's sister! Hope you like that little lot. It certainly made me smile thinking of them all. Catriona ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Clouston <mcclouston@bigfoot.com> To: <ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: 21 May 1999 14:35 Subject: [ORKNEY-L] What do/did you call your grand-parents siblings? > Hello listers! > A family discussion the other day brought up the question of what we call > our grand-parents' brothers and sisters. Do we call them our grand-aunts > and grand-uncles or do we call them great-aunts and great-uncles? In my own > family they were always "grand", "greats" entered the equation in a previous > generation and are called great grand-aunt or great grand-uncle and not > great-great-aunt or uncle. At least when I talk about my great grand-mother > and my great grand-uncle, I am talking about the same generation! > The Concise Oxford Dictionary shows grand-aunt and grand-uncle as = > great-aunt and great-uncle, so both are correct as far as they are > concerned. > I just thought it might be interesting to learn what the consensus of > opinion was among the rest of the group. > Also did you have a "special" name for your grandparents? How did you > distinguish between your father's and mother's parents when you were a > child, always assuming you were fortunate enough to know all of them? I > don't remember my mother's mother as she died when I was only two years old, > and my mother's father died before I was born. However my father's father > was always "Grampa" and father's mother was "Granny". > Kind regards > -- > Mike Clouston > mcclouston@bigfoot.com > http://www.mike.clouston.ukgateway.net/ > http://www.pegwell.ukgateway.net/ > >

My mother and grandmother lived togeter and when my son was little, he would get confused when I would call my grandmother, Grandma. He thought I was talking about my mother - his grandma. Whenever the question came up, I would have to say "No... the other grandma." Because of that he started calling his Great-Grandmother "Nother Grandma" and my mother, Grammy. His grandpa was called Poppa.

Bill's reply to Jan: > I believe that a natural child is an illegitimate birth, while a lawful >child is born to married parents. > >> In the Old Parish Registers of Births is there a difference between the >> natural child of and the lawful child of and if so, what? Is the correct reading of the language of both Scots & English Law, George M-B

>In the Old Parish Registers of Births is there a difference between the >natural child of and the lawful child of and if so, what? > >Thanks, >Jan Hi Jan, A natural child is the same as illegitimate. As the parents' names are usually given in the OPRs, and the place of residence also usually stated, one often finds that the father lives at one place, whereas the mother lives in another - further evidence that the two were not married at the time of the child's birth and baptism. If one looks at the Kirk Session Records of the parish in question about the time of the baptism of the 'natural' child, a better picture can be seen of the circumstances. Often one or the other of the parents refused to admit to the affair and pursuit of the case could go on for some time, even years. In many instances, the pressure of the Kirk Session ended with the couple being coerced or cajoled into marriage then and there. Another frequent mention was the very descriptive "ante-nuptial fornication," meaning that the parents entered a relationship and were then married after the pregnancy was evident. In some parishes, the Session was rather lenient in these cases and only a small fine had to be paid into the "poors' fund." In other parishes all transgressions of the 'carnal' type meant weeks of sitting on the 'stool of discipline' in sackcloth. Yet, the Session was usually relentless in pursuit of a wrong-doer and would refer to miscreant to the Presbytery if he or she wouldn't submit. I have found one ancestor who defied the Session for more than twenty years over a single case and was finally excommunicated. His solution was just to move to another parish, but the Session went so far as to write to the minister there and he finally had to confess all or be completely ostracized by the community. All interesting stuff... All best wishes, Doug Nicol, Santa Rosa CA

Just to throw a spanner in the works - I have found "lawful" births and "illegitimate" births shown as such on the Parish Register films I have searched. I have not come across a "natural" birth on any of them. Eunice Williams in South Australia teschek@tiac.net wrote: > Jan, > I believe that a natural child is an illegitimate birth, while a lawful > child is born to married parents. > > > In the Old Parish Registers of Births is there a difference between the > > natural child of and the lawful child of and if so, what? > > Bill Teschek > teschek@tiac.net > Orkney genealogy home page for the GENUKI project > http://www.tiac.net/users/teschek/genuki/OKI > > Distributor of JuicePlus+ nutritional supplements > Follow this link to discover a simple, easy, and effective > way to dramatically improve your chances of avoiding cancer... > http://www.nsanet.com/jp.html

Jan, I believe that a natural child is an illegitimate birth, while a lawful child is born to married parents. > In the Old Parish Registers of Births is there a difference between the > natural child of and the lawful child of and if so, what? Bill Teschek teschek@tiac.net Orkney genealogy home page for the GENUKI project http://www.tiac.net/users/teschek/genuki/OKI Distributor of JuicePlus+ nutritional supplements Follow this link to discover a simple, easy, and effective way to dramatically improve your chances of avoiding cancer... http://www.nsanet.com/jp.html

Hello listers! A family discussion the other day brought up the question of what we call our grand-parents' brothers and sisters. Do we call them our grand-aunts and grand-uncles or do we call them great-aunts and great-uncles? In my own family they were always "grand", "greats" entered the equation in a previous generation and are called great grand-aunt or great grand-uncle and not great-great-aunt or uncle. At least when I talk about my great grand-mother and my great grand-uncle, I am talking about the same generation! The Concise Oxford Dictionary shows grand-aunt and grand-uncle as = great-aunt and great-uncle, so both are correct as far as they are concerned. I just thought it might be interesting to learn what the consensus of opinion was among the rest of the group. Also did you have a "special" name for your grandparents? How did you distinguish between your father's and mother's parents when you were a child, always assuming you were fortunate enough to know all of them? I don't remember my mother's mother as she died when I was only two years old, and my mother's father died before I was born. However my father's father was always "Grampa" and father's mother was "Granny". Kind regards -- Mike Clouston mcclouston@bigfoot.com http://www.mike.clouston.ukgateway.net/ http://www.pegwell.ukgateway.net/

In the Old Parish Registers of Births is there a difference between the natural child of and the lawful child of and if so, what? Thanks, Jan

Good morning folks:--have posted before with no results so will try again. ABRAHAM BAKER (1775-1838) m. ESTER YAKE (1775-1838) da.: MARY BAKER (1800-1888) m.SAT.16 OCT.1819 ROBERT FLATT (1799-1848) -they came to Ontario in the same year and bought 200 acres of Crown land 24 SEPT.1832 -they had 13 children Does anyone have these BAKERS in their tree, I hate these broken branches, thanks, Pat Price Flatt from Canada................priceace@ionsys.com

I have been lurking in the background since joining so would now like to introduce myself. I am Helen Southen of Christchurch, New Zealand and have been researching my families for many years. My Orkney interests are STOUT, MILLAR, BARNETSON(E) and CROMERTIE (and variations). I was interested to see some recent discussion on Cromarty as I am at a stand still where my 6x great grandmother is concerned. She was Bess CROMERTIE (parents unknown) who married John BARNETSONE (the younger)at Walls on 15 Dec 1719. Their children were Jacobina 1720, Christian 1726, John 1731, Esther 1735, David 1736 and Benjamine 1738. Jacobina BARNETSONE married James MILLAR (parents unknown)in Walls 29 Dec 1742. Their daughter Katherine MILLAR b.1753 married Andrew STUT (STOUT) (parents unknown) before 1784. Andrew died 23 May 1823 at Walls aged 63. Katherine and Andrew STOUT had- 1. Robina 1784 (she died as the wife of Benjamin CROMARTY and her death cert states she was born at Aith, S Walls) 2. Jacobina 1785 3. Elizabeth 1786 born Longhope, Walls and Flotta, married Robert SUTHERLAND 29 Mar 1811 at Latheron, Caithness. (my 3x great grandparents) 4. Samul 1788 5. Andrew 1790 born Dunnet, Caithness 6. a male 1796 I'm pinning my hopes on someone being able to help with my "unknowns"! Helen Southen Christchurch New Zealand

Hello All! I'm looking for information on my ggreat grandfather James Will who I believe came to Sandwick Orkney in mid 1800's He was married to Jane Gordon and had 11 children. ( Alexander, Andrew, Thomas, William, George, John-Sophia twins) Isabella and Jane I believe there are to more boys names unknown. I believe James died in Orkney in 1869. James son Thomas was born in Sandwick Orkney July 26, 1857. Jane married a Laughlan Taylor in Sandwick in 1875 and Isabella married a George Mutch on March 4th 1869. Anyone out there with any info please contact me. Thank You Debbie

Looking for more information on ancestors/descendants of John (Jock) RITCH who may have married Mary HAWLEY in 1932 (NSW), and did marry Elizabeth Newall BLUE in 1938 (NSW) Children include: Maxwell Heather 1938 David 1943 Elizabeth 1945 John originated from Scotland (Orkney Islands), emigrated to Australia and landed in Sydney. He lived in NSW for some years where he married. At some stage the family moved to Vic (David was born and lived in Fitzroy) and then on to Tasmania and settled in the Burnie area. In 1977 the family moved back to the Central Coast area of NSW which is where I married David's daughter. If you can help in any way please email. A plug for my website (below) while I am here - find interesting info for viewing or download such as common medical terms and their current equivalents - useful for decrypting death certificates!! Regards, Ivan ________________________________ http://www.alphalink.com.au/~isanders (Go to the Genealogy section)

Kay Liney wrote: > William Sutherland and Jean Cromarty were married c1850 in Walls/ > Flotta. > Betsy Sutherland b 1855 in Flat m James Anderson b c1850 in Longhope. > James was a farm servant. Their first child Elizabeth Cromarty Anderson > was b 1880 in Flat, Margaret Jane was b 1882 in Longhope, Lily Sword > Anderson was b 1884 in Longhope. By 1889 the family had moved to Bressay > in Shetland where James John was born. He married Christina Guthrie from > Burray in 1912 in Kirkwall. > Ring any bells? > Kay This is the information from the Marriage certificate for James and Betsy ( Samuel Anderson was my 2nd great grandfather). Marriage Ref.No. 1879 32/1 1 16th January 1879 at Little Lurdy, Flotta Banns - Established Church of Scotland James Anderson, Farm servant ploughman, B, 28, Kirbister, Walls Betsy C Sutherland, Domestic servant, S, 23, Little Lurdy, Flotta Father: Samuel Anderson, Farmer Mother: Margaret Anderson ms Omand Father: William Sutherland, Seaman (merchant service) Mother: Jean Sutherland ms Cromarty Married by James Russell, Minister of Flotta Witnesses James Sutherland & John Sutherland. Ron.