At 08:54 PM 8/19/99 +0800, you wrote: >Anne, >Asking the copyright owner for permission to re-publish a record is very >much a common courtesy. The major reason for only granting permission in >microfiche format (or booklet ) is primarily to ensure that due >acknowledgment is given. Their other conditions are not all irksome. David, I agree with you, where someone holds a copyright the correct thing to do is ask for reprint permission and to respect their ownership rights. Here in the US, the government does not claim a copyright in census records; they are in the public domain; it's not necessary to ask permission to reprint in any form. I object to the copyright claim to those records by other countries. Information should be freely accessible to all. Since the British Crown claims a copyright in census records, I agree, if there were unauthorized publishing of census records they might restrict access, that is one reason why I haven't published the records I have (just Westray and Papa Westray) even though the dent in their claimed proprietary rights would be small. Though I do wonder if a challenge to those claimed rights, made on a large scale, might force reconsideration, but, perhaps some rocks can't be moved and I'm afraid I'm more Sisyphian than Herculean. Anne Rendall

Anne, Asking the copyright owner for permission to re-publish a record is very much a common courtesy. The major reason for only granting permission in microfiche format (or booklet ) is primarily to ensure that due acknowledgment is given. Their other conditions are not all irksome. The major reason for not granting permission to publish electronically is the uncontrolled nature of the process, often resulting in the loss of acknowledgment to the copyright owner, public or private. The abuse of copyright as you are threatening will only lead to the tightening of access restrictions to the records making our hobby more difficult. I should also point out that the Registrar General in Edinburgh sells microfilm copies of the original Census Records and Parish Registers. It from my own library of microfilms that I have done the transcribing and indexing. Also, have a look at what the Irish have done. They insist that you go pay through the nose to go through an approved record agent to get your dollars into Ireland. David ----- Original Message ----- From: Anne M. Rendall <anne@rendall.net> To: <ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 8:35 PM Subject: Re: (was Re: [ORKNEY] Re: ORKNEY-D Digest V99 #191) > At 05:39 PM 8/18/99 +0800, you wrote: > >G'day Marybeth, > >No it's not available online. The Scottish Registrar General only granted me > >copyright permission to publish it on microfiche. > > > I find it so amazing that they claim copyright in public records - the US > doesn't which is why it is so much easier to get our census records. Such, > information should be freely available to all. > > There was an interesting case in the US at the Federal Appellate level last > year where the Court ruled that the British Crown's copyright in photos of > paintings in the public domain had not enough originality to be entitled to > copyright protection in the US - I wish I could remember the case in more > detail but that was the gist of it. There's arguably more originality in a > photograph than a stack of records over a hundred years old. It tempts me > to publish the census records I have at my website. > > > Anne Rendall >

Just thought I'd add my two cents to the discussion on middle names. My great grandmother was Margaret Learmonth Chambers (1836 - 1916) and was likely named after Rev. Learmonth who baptised her in Stromness. Her twin sister Euphemia had a middle name that was hard to read. The IGI calls it Smaley, my interpretation from the microfilmed Parish Register was Snorley? or Snodey?, but now I'm wondering if she was named after Rev. Smellie??? A third sibling was named Thomas Vincent Robertson Chambers. The Vincent was his mother's maiden name, but I have no idea where the Robertson fits in. Does anyone know if there was a Rev. Robertson around in the Orkneys ca. 1831? Cheers, Stephen

Looking for anyone researching or knowing of these Fea's: Found a marriage record for a John Fea and Betty Brown abt 1801 Falkirk - said "irregly married" (whatever that means?) - MAY be the marriage rec. of John Fea & Elizabeth Brown below. John Fea (believed to have been born in Orkney) m. Elizabeth Brown John Charles Timmons Fea b.21 Nov. 1806 Falkirk, SCT James Trail Fea b.9 Nov 1808 Falkirk, SCT Thomas Brown Fea b.18 June 1815 Falkirk, SCT (m. Anne Liddle 24 Jul. 1837 Falkirk, immigrated to the U.S. abt 1853) *may be other children not yet found Found James, Thomas (w/wife Ann and children John age 2 and Catherine age 1 on 1841 Census Returns for Stirling, Falkirk (parish 479). James & Thomas occupations listed as "Coach" ? Believe this next family may be a 2nd marriage of the above John Fea but not known for sure: John Fea (lock keeper Forth & Clyde Canal Co. - born in Orkney) b.1767-91 d.14 Jan 1862 Falkirk (father listed as John Fea & mother as ? Sutherland on death cert). m. Catherine Thomson (married 21 Feb. 1821 Stirling, SCT). Margaret b. 1821 Stirling, SCT Alexander b.1826 " Catherine b.1828 " Helen b. 1830 " (married Alexander Winton 1848 Falkirk, SCT - Their son immigrated to the U.S. and was the founder of Winton Motor Carriage Co. Cleveland, OH) Simon b. 1832 " David b. 1832 * may be other children not yet found Found the above family on the 1841 Census returns for Stirling, Falkirk (parish 479) Looking for anything on the John Fea's above to sort out if they are one and the same or not. John the lock keeper's age on the 1841 census is given as 50 which if correct would be a birthdate of abt. 1891 yet his death record (listing same wife as census and informant, his son Simon) in 1862 lists his age as 95 which would mean a birthdate of 1767.

My thanks to David and Anne for their replies regarding the 1851 Orkney/Harray census, and the following information. I noticed my spelling was incorrect--Harray not Harrah; and I say "go for it" Anne!!! <VBG> Appreciate your help. Marybeth Corrigall, in northeast Ohio ACMBJC@aol.com ============================================================ In a message dated 8/18/99 9:50:58 PM, you wrote: <<G'day Marybeth, No it's not available online. The Scottish Registrar General only granted me copyright permission to publish it on microfiche. The Ontario Genealogical Society is my North American agent and they have a standing order for the book sales section. The microfiche are available Parish by Parish and include both a Transcript and Index. 1851 Harray has been published. Regards David Western Australia Researching Baikie, Stewart, Stout, Malcomson, Heddle - --------------------------------------------------------------------- >G'day Marybeth, >No it's not available online. The Scottish Registrar General only granted me >copyright permission to publish it on microfiche. > I find it so amazing that they claim copyright in public records - the US doesn't which is why it is so much easier to get our census records. Such, information should be freely available to all. There was an interesting case in the US at the Federal Appellate level last year where the Court ruled that the British Crown's copyright in photos of paintings in the public domain had not enough originality to be entitled to copyright protection in the US - I wish I could remember the case in more detail but that was the gist of it. There's arguably more originality in a photograph than a stack of records over a hundred years old. It tempts me to publish the census records I have at my website. Anne Rendall ----- Original Message ----- From: <ACMBJC@aol.com> To: <ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:08 AM Subject: [ORKNEY] Re: ORKNEY-D Digest V99 #191 > Is the 1851 Orkney census online? Would be interested if it includes Harrah. > Any comments or help appreciated. Thank you. > > Marybeth Corrigall > ACMBJC@aol.com > Orkney Surnames: CORRIGALL FLETT TULLOCH >>>

At 05:39 PM 8/18/99 +0800, you wrote: >G'day Marybeth, >No it's not available online. The Scottish Registrar General only granted me >copyright permission to publish it on microfiche. > I find it so amazing that they claim copyright in public records - the US doesn't which is why it is so much easier to get our census records. Such, information should be freely available to all. There was an interesting case in the US at the Federal Appellate level last year where the Court ruled that the British Crown's copyright in photos of paintings in the public domain had not enough originality to be entitled to copyright protection in the US - I wish I could remember the case in more detail but that was the gist of it. There's arguably more originality in a photograph than a stack of records over a hundred years old. It tempts me to publish the census records I have at my website. Anne Rendall

G'day Marybeth, No it's not available online. The Scottish Registrar General only granted me copyright permission to publish it on microfiche. The Ontario Genealogical Society is my North American agent and they have a standing order for the book sales section. The microfiche are available Parish by Parish and include both a Transcript and Index. 1851 Harray has been published. Regards David Western Australia Researching Baikie, Stewart, Stout, Malcomson, Heddle ----- Original Message ----- From: <ACMBJC@aol.com> To: <ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 5:08 AM Subject: [ORKNEY] Re: ORKNEY-D Digest V99 #191 > Is the 1851 Orkney census online? Would be interested if it includes Harrah. > Any comments or help appreciated. Thank you. > > Marybeth Corrigall > ACMBJC@aol.com > Orkney Surnames: CORRIGALL FLETT TULLOCH >

This is what I know about James CORMACK: bc1807 in Lady, Orkney m Jane DURAND. His daughter Barbara m George SUTHERLAND c 1860. The Sutherlands lived in Thurso, Caithness. Any additional information about James CORMACK would be most appreciated. Patricia (Pat, please) Hutcheson Hutch4750@aol.com Pittsburgh, Pa.

Does anyone know which James Flett would this be? "From the northeast corner of Pennsylvania, Robert Taylor honored the request of fellow Hawley resident James Flett to pass along best regards during the late summer of 1854 to Magnus and John Taylor down in Kentucky. James had disclosed his intention to depart Hawley in the near future, and the news left Robert mildly dispirited. Robert knew he would yearn for his long-time Orcadian friend, aware such a move left only one other Scotsman with whom to associate in their present little community amid the mountains." Dick Taylor somewhere along the Yellow Brick Road

Tracey Did your GIBSONs live at Frotoft, Rousay? Do you have a record of a Margaret LEARMONTH born about 1830 and married to John SMELLIE? Ken Harrison Vancouver, Canada Message text written by INTERNET:ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com >X-Message: #4 Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:40:41 +1000 From: brad anderson <paddles@selcon.com.au> Hello, I have been a subscriber for quite a while now, but have eventually made time to post my surname interests. LEARMONTH- Rousay GIBSON- Rousay MORWICK/MARWICK- Rousay Thank you, Tracey Queensland, Australia.

Hi group friends: This is the little I have to go on! JOHN FLETT -of KIRKWALL,ORKNEY ISLES -a blacksmith -28 JAN. 1797 m. MARGARET SHEARER - I do not know how many children they had, I have two of them: (1)ROBERT FLATT (1799-1848)--settled in Canada and I have lots of info (2)WILLIAM (1797-----worked for the Hudson's Bay Co. in Canada. Please does anyone recognize this family? Thanks, Pat in Canada <:)

Thanks very kindly, Pam, for your note. Pat in Ontario <:) ---------- > From: Pam Thomson <pamthom@intergate.bc.ca> > To: ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [ORKNEY] Re: FLETT > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 12:53 PM > > Hi Pat, > No, I have no Fletts in my database- so far- I just noticed this while > looking for other Thomsons. Have you looked at the database at > http://www.cursiter.com ? That's always a good resource for Orkney > information. Keep posting your request every so often & try searching > the archives of this list as I know I've seen Flett mentioned here. > Pam > -- > Pam Thomson of BC, Canada > New email address: as of August > pamthom@intergate.bc.ca > >

Is the 1851 Orkney census online? Would be interested if it includes Harrah. Any comments or help appreciated. Thank you. Marybeth Corrigall ACMBJC@aol.com Orkney Surnames: CORRIGALL FLETT TULLOCH ============================================================ In a message dated 8/17/99 5:48:11 AM, you wrote: <<Dear David, Let me be among those to congratulate and encourage you in the great work you are doing with the 1851 Census indexing for Orkney. As my great-grandmother was born on Sanday and her family is ennumerated in the 1851 census, I'll be most interested in seeing the index for that island. Thank you for your invaluable contribution to Orkney family history. All best wishes, Doug Nicol, Santa Rosa CA>>

Hi Anne and All. Anne in regard to your update to the Orkney GenWeb site. The following is a site in Sask. Canada that has a well known Orkney name. This is taken inpart from a book intitled (What's in a name) the story behind Saskatchewan place names. Flett's Springs....The Fletts, Selkirk settlers came west in1875 with their five children In 1887 the Fletts homesteaded West of Melfort Sask.by the large springs which today still bear their name. The post office was at John's home. His wife who operated it, was the daughter of John Bannerman. This family went on to become one of the best known and respected of the oldtime pioneers of Northeastern Sask. What made this name place more interesting to me was that my wife's maiden name is Flett. Her father George Abdrew Flett was born at (Northbigging) Harray Orkney and her mother Maggie Baikie Craigie was born at (Runas) Harry. I hope this may be of some use. Don Baugh Saskatoon Sask.

Hi Pat, No, I have no Fletts in my database- so far- I just noticed this while looking for other Thomsons. Have you looked at the database at http://www.cursiter.com ? That's always a good resource for Orkney information. Keep posting your request every so often & try searching the archives of this list as I know I've seen Flett mentioned here. Pam -- Pam Thomson of BC, Canada New email address: as of August pamthom@intergate.bc.ca

> >from the 1891 census: Kirkwall &St.Ola 2 Bridge St. Wynd(?) 2 rms w/windows James Flett Head married 28 Printer--Compositer Employed b. Kirkwall > >Maggie F. Flett wife 29 b. South Ronaldsay > >James Flett son 5 b. Kirkwall George F.F.Flett son 3 do Maggie E. F. Flett dau 5 mo. do from sue h. > >at least, I think all those initials are F's. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

>Thomson Query: I notice a Thomson in my Cutt Family of Kirkwall. Ann Cutt (dau of John and Margaret) m. Alexander Thomson in 1876. next info: 1891 Kirkwall census, where my gggrandfather John Cutt, by then a widower of 78, was living in a house named West Waterhall, with his unmarried son David, his daughter Mary, and his granddaughter Joanetta Thomson, age 7, who was born in "America". > ? Any info or connections, from the Thomsons out there? Or comments from any! Sue Hamilton > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

Hi Pam:---I wonder if you know anything about this FLETT. My ancestor was born as a FLETT in KIRKWALL,ORKNEY ISLES and changed his name to FLATT when he came to Canada and worked for the HUDSON BAY CO., bringing prisoners across Canada. Thanks, Pat in Ontario <:) ---------- > From: Pam Thomson <pamthom@intergate.bc.ca> > To: ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [ORKNEY] THOMSON/FLETT > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 1:46 AM > > Hi, > I ran across a birth certificate today which sounds like an Orkney > name to me ( Oh, by the way, I see there is an Orkney Springs in > Virginia, USA). This baby was born on 14 June 1895 in Vancouver, BC, > Canada. Her name is Inga Thomson, parents James Thomson & Helen > Flett. James was a manager for the Hudson's Bay Co.. If this is your > Thomson branch, I'll send you the certificate. > Pam > -- > Pam Thomson of BC, Canada > New email address: as of August > pamthom@intergate.bc.ca > >

Thanks Meg for the info. It was very interesting. Do you have anything else about the FLETT name. My family comes from ORKNEY and their name was FLETT which was changed to FLATT when they came to CANADA. With the FLETTS/FLATTS, I'm always up against a brick wall. Thanks, Pat in Canada ---------- > From: Meg Greenwood <finn@ionet.net> > To: ORKNEY-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: [ORKNEY] Continuing list of extra 1891 Census sheets > Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 11:24 PM > > Switched to a new computer, have been awhile learning its particulars. > Sorry for the delay in posting these census sheets, I hope they will be > helpful to someone. Please ask questions if needed, these are about > half done now. > > Parish of STROMNESS: > streets are listed with no house numbers > > Alfred St - had 6 rooms with more than 1 window > George HALCRO (bn Stromness) - head - mar - 76 yrs - Retired draper > Janet HALCRO (bn Stromness) - wife - mar - 64 yrs > > Alfred St - had 3 rooms with more than 1 window > Ann M BORWICK (bn Firth) - head - widow - 55 yrs > > Alfred St - had 3 rooms with more than 1 window > James FLETT (bn Birsay) - head - mar - 43 yrs - Ship Carpenter > Jane FLETT (bn Stromness) - wife - mar - 38 yrs > Jamles FLETT (bn Stromness) - son - 5 yrs > David FLETT (bn Liverpool, Lancashire) - son - 3 yrs > > Alfred St - had 1 room with more than 1 window > Matilda R SHURRIE (bn Evie) - lodger - unmar - 27 yrs - School Teacher > > Alfred St - had 5 rooms with more than 1 window > May THOMSON (bn Stromness) - head - widow - 54 yrs - Lodging House > Keeper > Isabella THOMSON (bn London, England) - dau - unm - 19 yrs > > Alfred St - had 3 rooms with more than 1 window > F L DUNCAN (bn Glasgow) - lodger - unmar - 36 yrs - Physician and > Surgeon > > Alfred St - had 8 rooms with more than 1 window > Elizabeth ROSS (bn Stromness) - head - widow - 46 yrs - Postmistress > Catherine COMLOQUOY (bn Birsay) - servant - unmar - 20 yrs - Domestic > Servant > > Dundas (Dandas?) St - had 11 rooms with more than 1 window > John C BROWN (bn Stromness) - head - umnar - 56 yrs - Draper > Samuel BROWN (bn Stromness) - bro - umnar - 50 yrs - Customs P C Officer > > Cecilia BROWN (bn Stromness) - sis - unmar - 47 yrs - Living on Private > Means > Jane CROMARTY (bn S Ronaldshay) - unmar - servant - 23 yrs - Domestic > Servant > > Alfred St - had 6 rooms with more than 1 window > James STEWART (bn Enzie(?), Banffshire) - Head - unmar - 37 yrs - > Episcopal Clergyman > > Alfred St - had 3 rooms with more than 1 window > Margaret EDDY (bn Stromness) - head - widow - 64 yrs > > Alfred St - had 1 room with more than 1 window > Elizabeth GEDDES (bn Fordyce, Banff) - lodger - unmar - 31 yrs - School > Teacher > > Alfred St - had 2 rooms with more than 1 window > David M BRASS (bn Sandwick) - head - widower - 67 yrs - Retired School > Master > Thomima W BRASS (bn Harray) - dau - unmar - 32 yrs - Housekeeper > > Alfred St - had 1 room with more than 1 window > Jane ISBISTER (bn Harray) - head - unmar - 64 yrs - Knitter > > Alfred St - had 1 room with more than 1 window > Janet LOUTTIT (bn Kirkwall) - head - widow - 76 yrs - Knitter > > Alfred St - had 1 room with more than 1 window > Elen (as written) SABISTON (bn Stromness) - head - unmar - 50(56?) yrs - > Knitter > > Parish of ORPHIR: > > 'E C Manse' (Episcopal Church) - had 19 rooms with more than 1 window > William CASKEY (bn Orphir) - head - mar - 40 yrs - Minister of Orphir > Parish > Margaret CASKEY (bn Edinburgh) - wife - mar - 31 yrs > Isobel S S CASKEY (all children bn Orphir) - dau - 8 yrs - Scholar > Josephine M CASKEY - dau - 7 yrs - Scholar > Grace T Stewart CASKEY - dau - 6 yrs - Scholar > Adelaide Maud Margaret CASKEY - dau - 4 yrs > William Victor CASKEY - son - 3 yrs > Eleanor Balfour CASKEY - dau - 2 yrs > Isabella GUNN (bn Stromness) servant - unmar - Domestic > > 'Glebe Cottage' - had 3 rooms with more than 1 window > Robert HAY (bn Orphir) - head - mar - 43 yrs - Farmer > Isabella HAY (bn Firth) - wife - mar - 43 yrs > Robert FLETT (bn Firth) - stepson - unmar - 15 yrs - Farm Servant > John HAY (bn Rendal) - son - 10 yrs - Scholar > William HAY (bn Orphir) - son - 8 yrs - Scholar > Isabella HAY (bn Orphir) - dau - 6 yrs - Scholar > James HAY (bn Orphir) - son - 3 yrs > Barbra McIVER (?) (bn Strath..dale, Caithnessshire) - servant - 21 yrs - > Domestic - spoke Gaelic and English > > 'Old School House' - had 2 rooms with more than 1 window > Margaret GORSTON (bn S Ronaldshay) - head - widow - 46 yrs - Merchant > > 'Belleieu' - had 3 rooms with more than 1 window > Robert FLETT (bn Firth) - head - mar - 46 yrs - Grocer > Isabella FLETT (bn Orphir) - head - mar - 48 yrs > James Buie(?) Logan (bn Glasgow) - Boarder - unmar - 39 yrs - Teacher > > 'Linnetdale' - had 3 rooms with more than 1 window > Jane WILSON (bn Orphir) - head - widow - 69 yrs - Farmer > Margaret WILSON (bn Orphir) - dau in law - Widow - 39 yrs - Farm Servant > > 'Teachers House' - uninhabited > > > > > > > > > > > >

Hello, I have been a subscriber for quite a while now, but have eventually made time to post my surname interests. LEARMONTH- Rousay GIBSON- Rousay MORWICK/MARWICK- Rousay Thank you, Tracey Queensland, Australia.