Hurray for the Canada Line.. You are really working hard and it looks like it's paying off... Congratulations!!! Cali Good Work! Cali's German PA, Genealogy http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Falls/3610 I will be putting an updated page at rootsweb soon..There are some errors in the first page I need to remove, or fix.. Thanks,Cali {{{HUGS}}}} ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Hi Liese: Here is an update on Isaac Uptegrove and family. This info came from our local LDS and my end of the family. Isaac Uptegrove wed Henrietta McDonald, where not known, but a guess would be either in Simcoe,Ont. or Waterford,Ont.,Canada. They had one son H.Roy and two daughters; one is Mabel who wed Fred Seibring andd lived in Simcoe. H.Roy died in their home in 1942. I think I have sent you my info about H.Roy and Grace W. his wife. I also found in the American Loyalist book: James Uptegrove wed to Jane Schram, Westminister,O.C., 11 July 1833.THEN-- James H. Uptegrove, aged 42 years, resident of Port Royal, Walsingham,Ont. Canada. Brn. in Penn.,U.S.A.; son of George and Barbera Uptegrove; wed Bridget (Gibbles), age 23, resident of Houghton. Brn. in Quebec; daughter of Thomas and Mary Gibbles,(Henry)-23 Oct., 1867. I hope this adds to your Canadian File. Regards----ROY. Liese Uptegrove-Ade wrote: > Regarding the Death Penalty for being a Loyalist.. I'm not sure yet what the > motivation was for this John Upthegrove to go up into Canada, he was > recorded as being in the NJ Militia. I suspect he was a Loyalist, and if so, > would imagine that his neighbors might not give him a warm reception in his > home town after the war <g>. Either way, it might be incentive enough to > leave... but there's a story that he went off to settle on lands that were > allotted for the Loyalists by the Queen, and nothing else has surfaced yet. > > On a side note, I also found a John & Peter Uptigrave in Sussex Co., Newton > NJ (War) Census in 1790? May have been 2 John's, (although so far I have > found no indication of more than one) or, the above mentioned John > Upthegrove left NJ for Canada after 1790?? Although 7 years seems like a > long time to hang around if you're facing the death penalty, or wrath from > patriots. > > What state, county, province or patent did Jonathan CHEW live in? > > >>>The judge who convicted him was his first-cousin's husband, Michael > FISHER!<<< > > It's so tragic how these families were strained and split apart due to the > war...and if there ever was a perfect example of it, this is it! > > Liese > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Vincent Summers <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 10:20 PM > Subject: Re: [ORIGINAL-13] Here comes Canada > > > > > Is this due to the LOYALIST classification that my Jonathan CHEW > > also carried? He had to go to Canada to avoid the death penalty. > > The judge who convicted him was his first-cousin's husband, Michael > > FISHER! > > > > Vince > > > > Liese Uptegrove-Ade wrote: > > > > > > Hi Roy, > > > > > > Do you know the approximate date of birth for Isaac Uptegrove, father of > > > H.R. Uptegrove? > > > > > > It's noted in Cathy Berger's compilation of Clyde Shanks works that > there > > > has been one branch of Updegrove/Uptegrove's (etc) went to Canada during > or > > > directly after the Rev. War. In particular, a "John", b. abt. 1735-1750. > > > > > > I've also done some research on this branch (still have a long way to > go), > > > and it also appears that some of them stayed in NY/NJ, and some went up > to > > > Canada and then came back down again in the early 1800s... some stayed > in > > > Canada. According to land deeds, survey maps, and tax rolls, and > marriages, > > > there are those who came back down from Canada who appear to be very > closely > > > connected to my own branch who had settled in the Orange County NY, & > Sussex > > > County, NJ border region. But there were also others that ended up > > > somewhere in the middle, between Canada & NY that at this point have not > > > been fit in to the mesh yet. > > > > > > I was just contacted by an "Ubdegrove" (a census is blamed for the > spelling > > > <g>), who lives in Canada, and goes back many generations there. I have > not > > > had a chance to exchange notes with this person yet, but if you'd like I > can > > > either pass along what I find, or put you in contact with them. > > > > > > Liese > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: Roy O'Grady <[email protected]> > > > To: <[email protected]> > > > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2000 2:35 PM > > > Subject: [ORIGINAL-13] Here comes Canada > > > > > > > > > > > My Mother was Evelyn A. Uptegrove, daughter of H.R. Uptegrove and > Grace > > > > W. > > > > Uptegrove(Hobson). H.R is son of Isaac U. > > > > In the Can. Census of 1871 we find Louisa Uptegrove,Fem.,64yrs.,Brn. > New > > > > Brunswick. Canada. Baptist, Seamstress, Widow. Then Isaac > > > > Uptegrove,Male,21, > > > > Ontario,Methodist, Blacksmith, Single.Later this came up: Isaac > > > > Uptegrove,53yrs., > > > > Blacksmith, died 8 Dec.,1900, in Waterford, Ont.. Survived by his > wife, > > > > 1son and 2 daughters. Thank you for this wonderful history of our > > > > family. > > > > Regards--Roy O'Grady, grandson of H.R. Uptegrove. > > > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > > > The RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > > > > Tens of millions of individuals... and counting. > > > > http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/ > > > > > > > > > > ============================== > > > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > > > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > > > http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/ > > > > > > ============================== > > Free Web space. ANY amount. ANY subject. > > RootsWeb's Freepages put you in touch with millions. > > http://cgi.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/acctform.cgi > > > > ============================== > Join the RootsWeb WorldConnect Project: > Linking the world, one GEDCOM at a time. > http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/

http://heritagepursuit.com/Pottsth.htm

Martha Garolynn “Marti” (FRENCH) NORTON (self) m. 1990 Jackie Carrol MURRAY (living) Ester May PORTER (1923-1956) 1m. 1943 Willard Templin FRENCH (living) William Tracy PORTER (1901-1998) m. 1922 Estella May OLIVER (1903-1992) Sarah Elizabeth HORN (1882-1964) m. 1900 William Henry PORTER (1878-1962) George Washington HORN (1856-1931) m. 1876 Abigail SIMMONS (1858-1929) Adam Wise HORN (1827-1891) m. 1835 Elizabeth McClure LOONEY (1839-1935) Hannah CUSTER (1804-1878) m. 1822 John HORN Jr. (1801-1882) George CUSTER Jr. (1776-1833) 1m. 1799 Mary WISE (1777-1856) Ens. George CUSTER Sr. (1744-1829) m. 1774 Susannah LONG (1755-1784) Paul CUSTER Sr. (~1710-1783) m. 1729/30 Sarah Martha BALL (1712-1779) Arnold CUSTER Sr. (1669- ) 2m. ~1699 Rebecca NUZOM (~1680-<1739) Paulus KUSTER (~1630/1708) m. 1668 Gertrude DOORS/STREYPERS (~1645-~1708) Any connecting information welcome! Marti

http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/public/genealogy/presidents.html Hello - I heard through the grape-vine that TYSON was related to ROOSEVELT. While looking through the web and Original-13 archives, I came across the above which may be helpful. Regards, Diane .descendent of Cornelius Tyson - 1652.

>"On the other side of my family from the Uptegroves I have found >that my gggrandmother was a Vye. As this is an unusual name it >has been very hard to trace. I am asking the members of the 13 if >they have any trace of this family? ... > >Roy Hello Roy, My STREEPER line has descendants named LINKENHOKER/LINKENHAGER who settled in Botetourt, VA. I have just run across a LINKENHOKER who married a John VIA. While looking in the census indexes, there ara a number of people named VIA in Virginia. There might be a connection there. Maurine Ward

I have an Idea, since these will be JPG's... Instead of Sending over and over.. I am going to My Family.com and setting up a site.. As I come across these Books, I will Scan them to this Page thing ( This sounds Real intellegent} but I will upload them for a while, and announce when they will be removed, Like vince Zipping the List bot, these I will Zip for Request after I get to the next book. I Can't think of another way that would not Require me to Scan and Send Each page to Each person?? Any other Ideas are Welcome... Thanks, Cali Cali's German PA, Genealogy http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Falls/3610 I will be putting an updated page at rootsweb soon..There are some errors in the first page I need to remove, or fix.. Thanks,Cali {{{HUGS}}}} ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Dear Folks: Roy O'Grady wishes to ask if you have this name... "On the other side of my family from the Uptegroves I have found that my gggrandmother was a Vye. As this is an unusual name it has been very hard to trace. I am asking the members of the 13 if they have any trace of this family? ... Roy [email protected] "

Hi Orig -13 Family!~ Let me do this , since the INDEX itself is small then I will list the page or pages next to each name, so you can write that down for me so I respond with the correct people <G> PS.. Because the Index is so small I will include ALL names just in case it helps someone. ~A~ ACKERMAN, Geore-25 ADAMS, Richard ~ 8 ALLENBACH, Christian ~ 9 Angelical, [Princess] ~ 10 Anna Maria [ Countess ] ~ 10 ARNOLD, Godfried ~9 ~B~ BÄCHTEL, Martin ~ 25 BÄR , Hendk ~ 25 BECHTEL Samuel, ~ 24 BEEN~ James ~ 13 BEER , Edward ~ 3 BELLAR, Peter ~ 13,30 BERGEY, Hans Ulrich, ~ 8 BINGAMAN, Lorentz ~ 8 BITTS, William ~ 8 BOEHM, Jacob ~ 33 BÖHM, Martin~ 25 BON, BUN, BUNN, Peter ~7, 8, 13 BORCHHALTER, Johannes ~21 { Burkholder?} BRECHBIEL, Bens ~ 21 {Breckbill}?? BRAMBAUGH, Martin G. ~5 ~C~ CASDORP, Herman ~ 21 CASSEL, KASSEL, Hubert ~ 7.8 Hendrick ~ 21 CLEMENS, Garrett ~ 9 Gerhard ~ 10, 13, 26, *27, 28 Jacob ~ 27 Maria~ 27 CONRAD, Catherine~ *29 Isabella ~ 27 Peter ~ 27 CROESE, Gerhard ~ 32 CROLL, Christian ~ 9 CUPSERUS, Johannes, 19 CUSTER, ~ Conrad~ 8 George A. ~3 Gertrude ~ 27 Herman ~ 26, *27, *29 John ~ 27 Magdalena ~ 27 Margaret ~ 27 Paul ~ *27 Peter ~ 27 Rebecca ~ 27 Sibilla ~ 29 ~ D ~ DAVIS, Richard Harding ~ 4 DAWS, Abraham ~ 15 DENNER, Jacob ~ 23 DESCHLER, David ~ 23 DESMOND, Daniel ~ 3,4,10, 13, 26, * 28 DETWIELER~ Hans ~ 7,8, 26, *28 Sussanah ~ 28 DEWEES Cornelius ~ 3, *28 Lewis ~ 28 Wilhelmina ~ 28 William ~ *3 , 26, * 28 Zyntian ~ 28 DOCK, Christopher ~ 5, 7 DUBIOS Isaac ~ 7, 8 Solomon ~ 3, 10 26, *28 ~ E ~ EGGELSTON, Edward ~ 5 ENGERS, Jacob ~ 8 ~ F ~ FARMER, Edward ~ *14, 15 road from Skippack to Ed's mill FREY, Heindrich ~13 FRIED,FREIDT~ Elizabeth ~ 29 Johannes ~ 4, 6, 7, 11, 26 John~ 9 Mary ~ 29 Paul ~ 3, *7, 9 26, *28, 29 Paul Jr. ~9 FRY, Benjamin ~ 8 FUNK, Christian ~ 19 Hendrickk ~ 25 Henry ~19 Jacob ~ 24 FURLY, Benjamin~ 1 ~ G ~ GARBER Johannes~9 GEHMAN, Abraham ~ 24 GÖBEL, Richard ~ 7 GODSHALK ect.. Jacob, 13,19,*20,*21,31 SYKEN~ 31 GORDON, Patrick ~7 GRATER, Jacob, 9,29 ~ H ~ HALDEMAN, Nicolas ~9 John~9 HALLMAN, Anthony ~ 8 HAMILTON, Andrew ~9 HARMAN, William ~*9 HARMAR, William~*2 HECKLER, James Y. ~ 10, *37 HEFFELFINGER, Ulrich ~ 9 HEILMAN, Antonius ~6 HENDRICKS, Garret~ 28 Yost ~ 23 HEYDT ect.. Hans Joest, 9, *35, 36, 37 HICKS, Nicholas ~9 HILL, Richard ~1 HIRSCH, Bens ~ 25 HULING, Marcus ~9 HUNSICKER, Valentin ~ 7 H- ST, Nicholas, 7 <------I don't know I just typed it. ~I~ Inden HOFFEN (DeHaven) Herman ~3 Anna Maria ~ *29 Annecke ~ 29 Eberhard ~ 29 Edward ~ 9 Garret ~ 26 Gerhard ~ 3,8,10, 13, *29 Hermans ~ 13 Herman ~ 10, 13, * 29 Peter ~ 29 JACOB, Richard ~ 7, 8 JACOBS Benjamin ~ 3 Elizabeth ~3 Isreal~3 John ~ *3, 7, 8 Joeseph, ~ 3 JANZ,Coenrad~ 21 JENSEN, Derrick ~ 26 JOHN, Jacob ~ 26 Jacob Jr. ~26 JOHNSON, JANSEN Agnes ~29 Benjamin~ 29 Catherine ~*29, 30 Claus-IV, ~ 2,4,6,7,9,10,*26,27 *29, *30 Elizabeth ~ 29 Hannah~ 29 John~ 9, 29, 30 Kuechin~ 29 Margret ~ 29 Maria ~29 Nicholas ~ 29 Peter ~ 7, 9, *29, 30 Jones, Robert *14 Well all that is the A-J Part I will have to finish in the AM <G> thanks, I am sure the Custer, dehaven Dewees ect.. Will keep me scanning for a bit... PLEASE make Sure that you include your EMAIL in the BODY of the MESSAGE, and Mail me Direct so I can Reply... The List cannot take JPG Attachments VanFossen Wagner Zeigler, UpdenGraeff Unstadt, Tyson Styrepers STAUFFER SELLEN SHUMACHER, KUSTER RITTENHOUSE PASTORIOUS JEYSER PENNYPACKER< PANNABACHER, VanBEEBER are also among the list, but i will do them in the same manor.. Levering, Kyte, TUNES/TUNIS and MANY more of the 13 are NOT in here as well as Luckens and Supllee???? Don't know why... :-( Sooooo See ya all this week {{{{{HUGS}}}} Cali Cali's German PA, Genealogy http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Falls/3610 I will be putting an updated page at rootsweb soon..There are some errors in the first page I need to remove, or fix.. Thanks,Cali {{{HUGS}}}}

http://home.att.net/~chasfies/Kierch.html

http://home.att.net/~charliefies/Forgotten.html Vince Summers

Hiya!~ In Packing Stuff up, I found that in 97 I bought a booklet about BEEBER's TWP 1702 The Complete title is: The Creation, founding, and Early Settlers of Bebber's township Philadelphia county, Province of PA 1702 ( Now Skippack Twp, Montgomery county PA) I KNOW I KNOW this isn't Montgomery list, ( Thank goodness) But this book deals Completely with our Orig 13 All over the book.. I am Possitive that many people have this that live in or around PA, but for those who have not seen it, it has some Pretty Great bio's on our Families. it was re-written in 1992 by William M. Detweiler I DO know that on Page 32 there is an ERROR, Jacob CHRISTIAN Zimmerman as Listed by Gerhard Croes's history, published in 1696 is NOT CHRISTIAN He is Jacob Christopher Zimmerman, His Brother was PHILIP CHRISTIAN The Father was the Peist MYSTIC, Johan Jacob Zimmerman and his wife was Maria Margaretha SCHAAL.. the children where Maria Margaretha bapt. Oct. 10, 1675; Philip Christian bapt Feb. 18, 1678; Mathaius bapt. June 25, 1680 and Jacob Christopher bapt. May 14 1683 ( This Jacob "Christopher" Zimmerman is my direct line.) Maria married Ludwig Peiterman/Beiderman breaking his vow of celebacy. No Proof of Mathaius or Philip having married or having children has yet ben found. Jacob Christopher m.Sybella VanFossen Christopher m Deborah Supplee ( as many of his cousins and a sibling marriend the Supplee line. The Father Jo Jacob Zimmerman died in 1693 in Rotterdam Holland, and it was Pastorious who carried on in Jacob's behalf to Free these Forty families from " Babolonish Coasts to those American plantations being led there by the guidence of the Divine Spirit... N Koster was among his Friends as well as Pasturious. Anyone wanting, stories, bios or look ups from this book are more than welcome to write, But because it is Leter Size pages, I will have to Scan and send to Each as an Attachment, as I am having some minor aches and pains <G> Happy hunting, Cali Cali's German PA, Genealogy http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Falls/3610 I will be putting an updated page at rootsweb soon..There are some errors in the first page I need to remove, or fix.. Thanks,Cali {{{HUGS}}}} ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

It is available in paperback for in the neighborhood of $35 + P&H new, Howard Swain told me. Of course the used was cloth, but it was $45. Vince

> Glenn deals mainly with the mainline and the Welsh tract but he utilized > some pedigrees that were given to him by the families involved without doing > any further investigation. Many of the royal lineages are suspect. > The Augustan Society, which specializes in mediaeval and royal lineages, and > the Society of the Descendants of Royal Bastards (aka Royal bastards) will > not accept anything from Glenn. >

More I thought of: 53 Streeper 32 Clayton 19 Levering 98 Shoemaker 142 Custer (Man!) Vince

Bill Cannon brought out the fact that Norristown City Directories, meant to cover the missing 1890 Census, are listed on http://www.ancestry.com for free for 10 days... I just tested them out to see what I could quickly find. I was curious about Hartranft and Stockham, two names not connected to the 13, and found 111 entries and 0 respectively. Then I thought of this list and tried some names Cassel 74 listings! Tyson 133 listings! Lukens 53 listings! Cadwallader 7 listings. Kirk 13 listings. Updegrove 5 listings. Tunis 1 listing. Tennis 2 listings. Kite 18 listings. Sellers 8 listings. Warner 15 listings. Peters 37 listings! Conard 21 listings! Vince

Actually, folks, my last message about that publication of GLENN, leads me to a thought. First, I will mention that he was, as I have been informed, an excellent historian... Now for the topic. If anyone has valid source materials that they care to offer lookups on, please let us know. I could either, at your request: 1) Mention it in a tagline (this would lead to frequent and prolonged requests, possibly) 2) Just let you mention it as a one-time gesture of goodwill 3) Ask Lisa to list it on our Original 13 Homepage Vince Researching: KITE, JARDEN, TUNIS, WARNER, PETERS, some LUKENs, and other names...

This source was listed on Philly-Roots. I am not an eBay customer, etc. I am just listing it because it would be mean not to! I have no stock in eBay, and this is genealogically related. It sounds like an excuse, folks, but I find this kind of reference OK. Please do not tell us about your herbal shampoo or your organic dogfood! ":O>) Vince Subject: [PHILLY-ROOTS-L] ebay has book of intrest to Welsh tract 1682 Resent-Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 06:16:55 -0700 Resent-From: [email protected] Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2000 09:17:29 -0400 From: "Tammy Finney" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Howdy all, I know I saw a few surnames I have seen on the list listed under this: eBay has on auction under Genealogy: #427216728 for $45.oo Thomas Allen Glenn. Merion in the Welsh Tract with Sketches of the Townships of Haverford and Radnor. Historical and Genealogical Collections Concerning the Welsh Barony in the Province of Penn- sylvania Settled by the Cymric Quakers in 1682. Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co, 1970. Originally published in 1896. Thick octavo, 394 pages. With 25 illus- trations. This is the history and genealogy of the Great Welsh Tract near Philadelphia granted by William Penn in 1682. Detailed genealogies or extensive genealogical notes can be found on some twenty-five main families, many of which figured prominently in the history of colonial Pennsylvania. The families include: Dr Edward Jones; Rees John William, of Merion, otherwise Rees Jones; Edward Williams; Cadwallader Morgan; Edward Rees (alias Price); Lowry Lloyd; Roberts, of Pencoyd, Lower Meriod; Hugh John Thomas; The Owen Family; The Bevan Family; Rowland Ellis and Descendants; Ellis Lewis and Descendants; The Humphreys Family; Cadwalader; The Wynnewoods and the Wynnes; Roberts of Merion and Blockley; Walker and Thomas Family of Radnor; The Parry Family of Radnor; John Thomas and the Jones Family; Herbert - Awbrey Families and Their Descendants, Hugh Roberts; The Brook and Morgan Families; Robert & Thos Lloyd; and the Warner Family of Blockley. Includes an index. A hardcover book with a very small address label on front endpage, otherwise in near fine condition. Scarce. Just thought I would let ya know Sherri Ryan

That for sure is CONFUSING, but that you for your Time spend on Using all the resources. This is Very Kind of you to Share your hard Effort in your search.. I am Sure someone will know SOMETHING, but at least you give us Very many tries to Obtain more confirmation... Just thought you deserve a Thank you... In Appreciation, Cali Cali's German PA, Genealogy http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Falls/3610 I will be putting an updated page at rootsweb soon..There are some errors in the first page I need to remove, or fix.. Thanks,Cali {{{HUGS}}}} ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

What a fantastic report on how to research! Cathy ----- Original Message ----- From: Howard Swain <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2000 9:13 PM Subject: [ORIGINAL-13] Marriage date of "Tonis Kuners" and "Lentgen Matteisen" > Hi all, > > I've been having some fun researching the marriage date of Thones > and Leentje. As a starting point, I'm glad for the pioneering work > of Wilhelm Niepoth, who used German sources to sort out these families. > > In "The Ancestry of the Thirteen Krefeld Emigrants of 1683," by > Wilhelm Niepoth, translated by John Brockie Lukens; reprinted in > Genealogies of Pennsylvania Families... vol III pp 495-512 we read > on page 507: > "...on the first Sunday after Trinity (May 31) Anno Domini 1677 in > Krefeld at the Reformed Church, the bans of marriage were published > for 'Tonis Kuners of Gladbach and Lentgen Mattheisen (spinster) of > Kaldenkirchen.'" > > When I read that, I realized that I did not know when Trinity was. > And it was not clear if they were saying that Trinity was May 31 > or the first Sunday after was May 31. So, I decided to try to > get a look at the actual marriage record to see what it said. > Plus I just wanted to see it for myself anyway. > > There were enough clues in the above to let me find in the LDS > library catalog a set of films titled "Kirchenbuch, 1647-1798" with > authors: "Evangelisch-Reformierte Kirche Crefeld." In particular > film #1,336,927, item 5 has the Heiraten [marriages] beginning > in 1677. > > It was easy to find the marriage of Tönis and Lentgen. The date > shown is "Dom. 1 Trinitatis". I agree that this means the first > Sunday after Trinity. But when is Trinity? > > According to my dictionary, Trinity is the Sunday after Pentecost. > And Pentecost is 7 weeks after Easter. So, when was Easter in 1677? > And since I wasn't sure whether the Krefeld records were using > Julian or Gregorian, I wanted to find Easter in both systems. > > I found this site that seemed to know what they were talking about > and had tables that could be used to calcuate the date of Easter > in both systems: http://www.chariot.net.au/~gmarts/easter.htm > I also used this site to print out pages of months for both: > http://www.calendarhome.com/tyc/ (But note that their date > for Easter in the Julian is the Gregorian day of the month number > which puts it on Wed.; so that is wrong.) > > Using the first site, I came up with Easter on 18 April 1677 for > the Gregorian Calendar and 15 April for the Julian. That would > put the Sunday after Trinity as 20 June and 17 June respectively. > > And then it occured to me that maybe the LDS web page on German > genealogy research would have some help in this area. So I went to: > http://www.familysearch.org/sg/Germany.html and found: > "Bukke, Inger M., et al. The Comprehensive Genealogical Feast Day > Calendar. ... fiche 6054630 ..." I went to my local FHC and > they already had that fiche on file. And wonder of wonders, > their dates for Easter and Trinity exactly matched what I had > determined for 1677 in both Julian and Gregorian. > > Now we have to face the question of whether the Reformed Church > of Krefeld was using Gregorian or Julian. > > Supposedly the German "Catholic States" changed to Gregorian in > 1583-85 with the "Protestant States" changing in 1700. (Bukke, et al) > With so many "States" and so much change going on there and the > 30 years war (1618-1648), etc., I still am not sure which > the Krefeld area was in 1583-85. Or for much of the time between > 1582 and 1677. The best I have found is 2 maps that show the German > states after the Peace of Westphalia in 1648. They both show the > Krefeld area as being in the Archbishopric of Cologne. So, it was > apparently in a Catholic area in 1648. If not already on Gregorian, > it maight have changed at that time and then stayed Gregorian > even if it went back to Protestant control. > > As the above approach may always be indeterminate, I decided to > see if there was anything in the data itself which would help. > All the marriages after Trinity seem to be on Sunday, as they > say "Dom" for the date and then how many weeks past Trinity. > Therefore, until something better comes along, I will assume that > the earlier marriages were on Sunday also. It just so happens that > if I assume a Gregorian calendar, then all the marriages except one > fall on Sunday. > > Therefore, it appears to me that Tönis and Lentgen got married on > 20 June 1677. > > Astute readers will have noticed that Niepoth/Lukens cited banns > and I have been talking marriage date. (The banns would be 2 weeks > or more before the marriage.) There are some other differences > between the record I found and what they reported. They reported > that Lentgen was a "spinster". The record I found had no words, > letters, or symbols to indicate that. Also, in my record her > patronymic is clearly Matteisen and they have Mattheisen. Now > that could be a typo or proofreading error on their part. Or > it could mean that Niepoth saw a different record than what I > found. > > Here is my hypothesis: There were separate books for banns and > for marriage (although I've never seen that before). Niepoth saw > the banns book, and it had "spinster" and maybe a different spelling > for Mattheisen. And it had the date of banns as May 31 or maybe > May 30 (Sunday) and the 0 looked like a 1. May 30 would be > 3 weeks before my 20 June date. Maybe he also saw the same > marriage book I have the film of and somehow the banns of May 30 > or 31 got garbled with the marriage on the first Sunday past > Trinity in the write-up or translation. > > There is one additional fly in the ointment. From all I can tell, > the book on the film I have is marriages as the LDS documentation > says, and not banns. However, at the bottom of each entry, there > are the numbers 1 2 3 with slantwise line drawn through each. It > looks as if they could have been checking these off as the banns were > read on 3 successive Sundays. In which case, 20 June (first > Sunday past Trinity) _might_ be the date the banns were first > read. > > It is unfortunate that on p. 509 in summarizing all the Doors > children, the article has that Tonis Kunders _married_ on 31 May 1677 -- > which is not consistent with their earlier statement that "the first > Sunday after Trinity (May 31)" was the date of banns. > > In any event, it appears clear to me that they did not marry on > May 31. I think 20 June is the best estimate with what I know now, > with later dates possible. > > > Thanks for any insight into any of this. > > Regards, > Howard > > > > > > > [email protected] > > > ==== ORIGINAL-13 Mailing List ==== > We ***LOVE*** Original Source Material on this List. Please share if > you can, and if you will... > If you wish to place restrictions upon its use, let us know. > > ============================== > Personalized Mailing Lists: never miss a connection again. > http://pml.rootsweb.com/ > Brought to you by RootsWeb.com. > >