Peter Conrad and Thones Kunders are not only NOT the same but not even kin in the remotest sense. Then there is a Rev. John Conrad, b 1681, same year as John Cunrads, son of Thones...confused. and the Katherine and Gertrude and the Custer relative... (Mrs. Thones Kunders [Magdalen Tyson] was an op den gräff descendant as were the Custers making us kin that way, though). But this is another example of old errors being revived. Keep asking, that is what we are here for, to clarify...now CHARGE! Regards, Erik P Conard

Hi all, There may be no person in early Germantown whose name has been so frequently gotten wrong for so long and in so many places. It is seldom (luckily) that people get both the given name and the surname wrong. Perhaps we should call her TWIKAES, ie. The Woman Incorrectly Known As Elin Streypers. :) As far as I know, we have only 4 primary, contemporary records of her name. And they are these: Leentien Doormans at her bap (as an adult) in 1670 Lentgen Matteisen at her marriage in 1677 Lijntijen Teisen on the 1681 marriage certificate Lentje Kunders on the 1710 marriage certificate I would be interested if anyone can cite any other _contemporary_ record of her name. All the different spellings of the first name are fairly common variations that were found in the lower Rhineland at that time. They are also a diminutive form of a longer name. That longer name could be Magdalena, or Helena, or even Elenora. (I suppose it is also possible that the diminutive _was_ her complete name.) As I imply above, as far as I know, no one has found a contemporary record of her name in other than the diminutive form. So, which of the 3 possible "full" names might we guess would be hers? She had 2 grand-daughters named Magdalena. Therefore, that is a reasonable assumption as to her probable "full" name. As far as I know, she had no grand-daughters named Helena or Elenora. Furthermore, Magadalena was the most common name of the 3 at that place and time, as far as I know. So, as far as I can see, there is no justification to call her Helena, Helen, Ellen, Elin, etc. You can make a case (see above) for Magdalena. But the most conservative is just to go with what there is primary evidence for and that is to stay with the diminutive Lentje or one of the other spellings. What is frustrating is that (although he may have made other errors) William I. Hull got it right re. Lentje's first name in his 1935 book, William Penn and the Dutch Quaker Migration to Pennsylvania (see p. 219). So, the truth has been out there for nearly 70 years. If anyone wants even more on this topic plus how the erroneous Streypers name could have been given her, see the message I sent to this list back in 2000: http://searches2.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/ifetch2?/u1/textindices/O/ORIGINAL-13+2000+221441865+F Regards, Howard hswain@ix.netcom.com

In a message dated 2/21/03 12:59:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, maurineward@attbi.com writes: > Iris Carter Jones, 8125 Arroyo Vista Drive, Sacrament, CA > 95823-5935. This is Sacramento, CA - not Sacrament (although the city may be holy to some of you :-) )

Thanks for the kind words, Maurine. FURTHER, we have found the marriage record of Thones Kunders and Magdalen Tyson in Germany, 31 May 1677 in Krefeld. SO, that ought to settle it. In the meantime I will continue to Grrrrr, harrumph, and what have you albeit I still mean well. Regards, Erik P Conard

Are Peter Conrad and Thones Kunders the same person? Someone wrote that they are not. Any clarification would be greatly appreciated. Eileen

Thanks for catching my error. I usually proofread my messages, but that got away from me. Maurine Ward ----- Original Message ----- From: <Kashathree@aol.com> To: <ORIGINAL-13-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [ORIGINAL-13] Merion Meeting Burial Records > In a message dated 2/21/03 12:59:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, > maurineward@attbi.com writes: > > > Iris Carter Jones, 8125 Arroyo Vista Drive, Sacrament, CA > > 95823-5935. > > This is Sacramento, CA - not Sacrament (although the city > may be holy to some of you :-) ) > > > ==== ORIGINAL-13 Mailing List ==== > Transcribe Graves, Lookup Data Online, Lookup Data in Publications > Visit Historical Societies, Go to Libraries and courthouses. Take Photos > documents, stones, artifacts, etc. We will love it! > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

Dear Cousins, Unfortunately, the debate about Thones Kunders' wife as a Streeper or a Tyson/Doors has been carried on for many years. I am sure that a lot of the former information on this subject may be in the list archives. Another excellent source of information is KREFELD IMMIGRANTS AND THEIR DESCENDANTS, edited by Iris Carter Jones, 8125 Arroyo Vista Drive, Sacrament, CA 95823-5935. This subject has been discussed in several of her issues--she could direct you to the correct ones. Another proof of Thones Kunders' marriage to Helene Doors/Tyson is in the book BRAVE NEW WORLD: RHINELANDERS CONQUER AMERICA, by Dieter Pesch, which he published in connection with the exhibition he built in the outdoor historical museum, Rheinisches Freilichtmuseum. With the aid of an expert German researcher, they combed the old records for all of the 13 emigrant families and their ancestors. I remember sitting in a meeting with Dr. Pesch in Kaldenkirchen, with all of the members of the city planning commission. When he told them that most people in America believed that Kunders had married a Streeper, they all laughed and promptly produced a chart for me showing all of the Door/Tyson family and how they each married into the major 13 families who immigrated. The misconception comes because Jan Streypers called Kunders his brother-in-law (or something like that), so the earliest researchers started calling Kunders' wife a Streeper. According to Dr. Pesch and his research Gunther _____ (I can't remember his last name), relationships were not used in the same way 300 years ago as we know them now. They were much more loosely used, and an in-law, cousin, uncle, etc. could mean someone several degrees away. Anyway, before there are any more hurt feelings and/or mud-slinging, I think there should be an open mind to all of the possibilities. I still feel that Erik has done more research on this line than any of us would do, and it would be good to listen to him. Granted, he comes over pretty terse some times, but it is because he has rehashed the subject a hundred times. You notice that he is still a subscriber and interested in what is going on, instead of curling up in his home surrounded by his wealth of knowledge and piles of research. In reality, he is always willing to share his information, which is more than some of my correspondents are willing to do. Maurine Ward ----- Original Message ----- From: <MarkleVon@aol.com> To: <ORIGINAL-13-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 6:36 AM Subject: [ORIGINAL-13] Merion Meeting Burial Records > This was sent to the PA-OLD-Chester list. I thought it may be of interest to > this list. Yvonne > > > > Jonathan Conrad, 6 Mo. 8, 1770. > The Conrad family were early residents of Germantown. One branch settled > > > in old Blockley Township, near Haddington. > Jonathan Conrad and Deborah Bowen were married Dec. 14, 1754. This > marriage is recorded at Christ Chruch, Philadelphia. > The Conrad family are descended from Tunes Conders, or Kunders of > Germantown, one of the passengers on the Ship "Concord", 1683. In English, > his name is rendered Dennis Conrad. Among his descendants are those who > spell their surnames Conrad, Conard, Cunard, etc. The name of Tunes > Conders is on Tax List for Germantown, 1693. > Pastorius had an interview with Dennis Kunders, or Conrad, at Crefeldt, > April 12, 1683, on his way to America. The first religious meeting by > Quakers, or Friends was at Conrad's house, Germantown, 1683. Proud's > "History of Pennsylvania", Vol. I. p. 222. - On Rupp's "List", are Dennis > Conrad, Johannes, Matthias & Jonn Kunders. > Jonathan Conrad died 1770. > Thones Kunders from Crefeld, Germany, landed at Philadelphia, in the > "Ship > Concord", 7 Mo. 24, 1683. He married Elin Streypers; and d. 1729. > Children of Thones Kunders and Elin, his wife were; > I. Conraed Conraeds (b. 1678; d. 1747); m. (1) Ann Klinken; (2) Anne > Burson. > II. Madtis Conders (Matthias Conrad - b. 1679; d. 1721); m. Barbara Tyson. > III. Jonn Cunrads, of Horsham; m. (1) Alice Lukens; (2) Elizabeth Dennis. > IV. Ann (b. 1684); m. 1715, Leonard Streeper. > V. Agnes (b. 1686); m. 1709, Samuel Powell. > VI. Elizabeth (b. 1691); m. 1709, Griffith Jones. > VII. Henry Cunreds, of Whitpain, (b. 1688); m. 1710, Katharine Streeper. > John Cunrads, of Horsham, had several children by his first wife. By his > > > second wife, Elizabeth Dennis, a son, Dennis Conrad, who resided in Lower > Merion. This Dennis Conrad had children, as follows; I. Isaac; II. > Alice (m. ____ Blaker); III. John; IV. Jonathan; V. Mary (m. > ____ Lukens). > The John Conrad (son of Dennis of Lower Merion) had children, > namely; I. Jonathan; II. Dennis (b. 1785; m. Mary Huff); III. > Hannah; IV. Ann (m. ____ Norton); V. Deborah > Dennis Conrad (b. 1785) m. Mary Huff, and had Joseph. of Upper > Merion; John (m. ____ Widener); Susan (m. Wm. Carver.) > > > > ==== ORIGINAL-13 Mailing List ==== > We ***LOVE*** Original Source Material on this List. Please share if > you can, and if you will... > If you wish to place restrictions upon its use, let us know. > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 >

I agree with her, she should not be on this list. I thought the response to her original post was valuable advice, not a personal attack. Even though I am a newbie to this list, the discourse has been quite interesting. Research, especially in this field, has many pitfalls, not the least being the desire of people to be a part of famous lineage, even if the documented connection is tenuous. Please continue to offer the advice and information you have, let us evaluate what we read, and learn. Even incorrect information teaches us lessons. Thanks MarkleVon@aol.com wrote: >Erick, I certainly am not a newbie to genealogy. I have probably been at it >as long as you have. >These are actual records of the Merion Meeting, not from a historian who did >not understand the nomenclature or German and so made assumptions. >I am not an authority on either the Kunders or the Merion Meeting. I merely >passed this along as I thought it would interest some on the list. >My forty plus years of genealogy leads me to the conclusion that perhaps I >don't belong on this list. Please unsubscribe me. Yvonne > > >==== ORIGINAL-13 Mailing List ==== >Avoid posting well-known URLs. Everyone knows Rootsweb is at >http://www.rootsweb.com Assume everyone is familiar with the basic >search engines, telephone directories, mapping sites, etc. > >============================== >To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: >http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > >

Robyn, Thanks, yes, I've tried the Carlisle area. Judy

--part1_1d0.34fedb1.2b86f2f0_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_1d0.34fedb1.2b86f2f0_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: <EFSS-L-request@rootsweb.com> Received: from rly-xf03.mx.aol.com (rly-xf03.mail.aol.com [172.20.105.227]) by air-xf04.mail.aol.com (v90_r2.5) with ESMTP id MAILINXF41-0220214413; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:44:13 -0500 Received: from lists5.rootsweb.com (lists5.rootsweb.com [207.40.200.41]) by rly-xf03.mx.aol.com (v90_r2.6) with ESMTP id MAILRELAYINXF32-0220214351; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:43:51 -0500 Received: (from slist@localhost) by lists5.rootsweb.com (8.12.4/8.12.4) id h1L2hUlI028089; Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:43:30 -0700 Resent-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 19:43:30 -0700 X-Original-Sender: wilsonpam@mindspring.com Thu Feb 20 19:43:29 2003 Message-ID: <3E55923C.9020207@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 21:43:08 -0500 From: Pam Wilson <wilsonpam@mindspring.com> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20021120 Netscape/7.01 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Old-To: EFSS-L list <EFSS-L@rootsweb.com>, Arledge list <arledge@tx3.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [EFSS] Virginia bill defeated Resent-Message-ID: <hFrbXB.A.n2G.RJZV-@lists5.rootsweb.com> To: EFSS-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: EFSS-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <EFSS-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/1198 X-Loop: EFSS-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: EFSS-L-request@rootsweb.com X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Passing along some good news! ___________ At 2:52 PM 19 Feb 2003 Jan Hathcock wrote on VA-HIST@LISTLVA.LIB.VA.US Senate Bill 818, which would have allowed the clerk to destroy a will's file along with the original will after five years have passed, was DEFEATED today in the House of Delegates of the Virginia General Assembly by a vote of 15-Y 81-N. Jan Hathcock Public Relations Officer Library of Virginia 804-692-3592 _________ Pam Wilson --part1_1d0.34fedb1.2b86f2f0_boundary--

Judy, Have you tried the Carlisle area? It's where the War college is, and not too far from there is an area called the Barracks. I'm not from there, but we visited the area last summer. Good Luck! Robyn

This has been floating around too long. It was never stated that I can see that it was a county or a company (CO) Many years ago the name was being researched as Pennsylvania Barracks. I believe it existed. But only the military historians could possibly tell us where. Cathy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lois Bires" <andarab@nauticom.net> To: <ORIGINAL-13-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2003 7:52 AM Subject: [ORIGINAL-13] Barracks Co., PA > > I posted the suggestion that your inquiry may have originally been Bucks > Co., PA. Do I recall correctly in seeing the Co. in your message? A lot > of people in those days were uneducated and spelling was often an > individual choice. In addition, as information gets copied over the > decades, sometimes errors creep in. I'm sure you have found in your > research that it is helpful to sound out the names you see written. Also, > sometimes people who were literate wrote for someone who wasn't and > misinterpreted what they heard. There are lots of possibilities, so it > seems to be a good idea to look more closely in Bucks Co. for that > individual. > > Lois Bires > > > ==== ORIGINAL-13 Mailing List ==== > Please do not post just general Philadelphia information, but material > that is relevant to the 13 settling families of Germantown, PA, and > their descendant lines. Anything on these is A-OK. Thanks... > > ============================== > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > >

my comments on the old material being often erroneous was not in any way intended to insult anyone, newbie or not. I received one e-mail intimating that I did. If so, it was not intentional, and I apologize. Sometimes we are unknowingly abrasive, but sometimes we are a bit too sensitive. At any rate, please, let us continue. Erik P Conard

Erick, I certainly am not a newbie to genealogy. I have probably been at it as long as you have. These are actual records of the Merion Meeting, not from a historian who did not understand the nomenclature or German and so made assumptions. I am not an authority on either the Kunders or the Merion Meeting. I merely passed this along as I thought it would interest some on the list. My forty plus years of genealogy leads me to the conclusion that perhaps I don't belong on this list. Please unsubscribe me. Yvonne

Unfortunately, some of the old info is wrong. Thones Kunders' wife, for instance, was not a Streeper (Streypers), rather a Tyson...One of the nice things of this site is that we can at least correct some long-standing mistakes. Often those early historians did not understand the nomenclature nor German and, so erred in their assumptions. And new genies, finding old material, think they have stumbled on to some great stuff. A gross generalization it is, but beware...the older the material on the Original 13 folks...the more likely it is wrong! I know it goes against the grain, but my forty plus years at this has led me to this conclusion. Erik P Conard

This was sent to the PA-OLD-Chester list. I thought it may be of interest to this list. Yvonne Jonathan Conrad, 6 Mo. 8, 1770. The Conrad family were early residents of Germantown. One branch settled in old Blockley Township, near Haddington. Jonathan Conrad and Deborah Bowen were married Dec. 14, 1754. This marriage is recorded at Christ Chruch, Philadelphia. The Conrad family are descended from Tunes Conders, or Kunders of Germantown, one of the passengers on the Ship "Concord", 1683. In English, his name is rendered Dennis Conrad. Among his descendants are those who spell their surnames Conrad, Conard, Cunard, etc. The name of Tunes Conders is on Tax List for Germantown, 1693. Pastorius had an interview with Dennis Kunders, or Conrad, at Crefeldt, April 12, 1683, on his way to America. The first religious meeting by Quakers, or Friends was at Conrad's house, Germantown, 1683. Proud's "History of Pennsylvania", Vol. I. p. 222. - On Rupp's "List", are Dennis Conrad, Johannes, Matthias & Jonn Kunders. Jonathan Conrad died 1770. Thones Kunders from Crefeld, Germany, landed at Philadelphia, in the "Ship Concord", 7 Mo. 24, 1683. He married Elin Streypers; and d. 1729. Children of Thones Kunders and Elin, his wife were; I. Conraed Conraeds (b. 1678; d. 1747); m. (1) Ann Klinken; (2) Anne Burson. II. Madtis Conders (Matthias Conrad - b. 1679; d. 1721); m. Barbara Tyson. III. Jonn Cunrads, of Horsham; m. (1) Alice Lukens; (2) Elizabeth Dennis. IV. Ann (b. 1684); m. 1715, Leonard Streeper. V. Agnes (b. 1686); m. 1709, Samuel Powell. VI. Elizabeth (b. 1691); m. 1709, Griffith Jones. VII. Henry Cunreds, of Whitpain, (b. 1688); m. 1710, Katharine Streeper. John Cunrads, of Horsham, had several children by his first wife. By his second wife, Elizabeth Dennis, a son, Dennis Conrad, who resided in Lower Merion. This Dennis Conrad had children, as follows; I. Isaac; II. Alice (m. ____ Blaker); III. John; IV. Jonathan; V. Mary (m. ____ Lukens). The John Conrad (son of Dennis of Lower Merion) had children, namely; I. Jonathan; II. Dennis (b. 1785; m. Mary Huff); III. Hannah; IV. Ann (m. ____ Norton); V. Deborah Dennis Conrad (b. 1785) m. Mary Huff, and had Joseph. of Upper Merion; John (m. ____ Widener); Susan (m. Wm. Carver.)

Whoa!! Thank you. I too am a descendant of Weigart Levering, and Heinrich Frey. There is much information for me on your web page. Thank you so much for posting this. I too am new to this list. Yvonne

Lois, What I have is a photocopy of the original page of noncommissioned officers and privates who signed up at the Chesterfield Court House in VA. In the column marked "Where born" it is divided into "State" & "C or Town." Under "State" I cannot truly make out what it says even after enlarging and looking with a magnifying glass but others have insisted it is the misspelling of Pennsylvania. Barracks in the 2nd column is quite legible and there is no mistaking it. I have contacted the Carlisle Historical Society and they have never heard of the area ever being referred to as Pennsylvania Barracks or just Barracks in 1739. I believe my ancestor Edward to be from DE anyway because of other information I have. I have searched maps from the era looking for similar sounding names to no avail and contacted Rev. War buffs to see if the name rang bells. I need this piece to my puzzle before I make claims back any further to the Concord. Others have made the leap and I am confident that I can but I like to have proof. Thanks for your suggestion. Judy

I posted the suggestion that your inquiry may have originally been Bucks Co., PA. Do I recall correctly in seeing the Co. in your message? A lot of people in those days were uneducated and spelling was often an individual choice. In addition, as information gets copied over the decades, sometimes errors creep in. I'm sure you have found in your research that it is helpful to sound out the names you see written. Also, sometimes people who were literate wrote for someone who wasn't and misinterpreted what they heard. There are lots of possibilities, so it seems to be a good idea to look more closely in Bucks Co. for that individual. Lois Bires