HBC in fact did hire underachievers, right off the bat. They were at first Englishmen, vacumed up off the streets of London. They consistently performed very poorly, were cowardly, and totally unsuited for a tough long-term challenge. They were not adaptable, and had few manly skills suited to the real outdoors. And unsurprising to those of us who are descendant Canorkies (my term) who came to Canada with that monopolistic corporate English symbol of imperialism, the english were unsuited to the rigors of any typical challenge in the constantly- changing natural world. Our viking forefathers on the other hand, passed along the lifeskills needed to thrive and survive. These included sea skills, and great "camping' wisdom for a variety of extreme weather-related circumstances The HBC journals I have read, occasionally are critical of the Orcadian HBC men. But the criticism was usually written by an englishman, who was incapable of communicating effectively with our first nations peoples, whom adored the Orcadians and loathed the English. History recorded shows that fearless and courageous men alone, blazed the trails for latter-day immigrants from Britian, and the first choice for getting the job done was the Orkneymen from Firth and Stennes, according to all credible historical records in this country. (by the way, the English finally coughed up their HBC records which now have their rightful home in Winnipeg, Manitoba.) In my family, it was evident that if you lived in Firth, as we did in Grimbister near Davie Brig, and you wern't the eldest son of a landowner, your chances of owning ground regardless of how hard you worked were somewhere between nil and nothing, unless you could win the heart of an only daughter with sick parents. In our family, on one occasion, two young men went to Stennes where an HBC boat was set to sail for the west. One of the young men said, "Go home and tell Ma that I have gone west with the HBC but I'll be back in five years." That type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in my mind is far from the general description of an underachiever. When I meet resident Orcadians on this site and elsewhere, there is an undertow of curiosity and even a little envy of those families who came out here, and slugged it out, swallowing mosquitoes by the pound when they dared breath, losing their digits to frostbite, and confronting wild beasts in the Bay area, with the worst of weapons handed out buy the company, which often blew up in the face of the shooter confronted with a bear, or whilst gathering meat. On August 24, 1782, our own Andrew Davie was captured with other Orkneymen at fort Prince of Wales on Hudson's Bay. The circumstances were rather odd, and the company were critical of the Orkneymen. Few of them were ever trained to fire cannons which were placed on the walls. I suppose as the French arrived, the lead-butted, chair-smothering englishmen who commanded the Company from London would have liked it better if all the Orcadian men fought their hearts out , and died with their Orkney blood spilling onto the fallen union jack. But they were survivors. Their conclusion was sort of "Hey, we are here doing our thing for the company, where few others could. We want to go home in five years or ten, with our hard earned money, to our families. Dying at the hands of some beplumed frenchman who dropped in unannunced is not part of the deal. So why not see if the man has a bottle or two of brandy aboard, make peace, have a nice caribou and grouse feast with bluberry pie and thereafter, find our way to the company and explain that ill equiped as we were to defend it, we chose to live." This beautiful piece of history underlines the practical thinking of Orcadians. Also, whereas the English viewed natives here as a sub species, sort of half human and half bear, the Orcadians learned skills from them, and took native women for wives, in contrast to the stiff and haughty Brits. One of our distant relatives, Joseph Isbister, took a native wife (called country wives) and their son Alexander took a law degree in Scotland and thereafter championed the cause of Metis in the employ of the company. I was at a native Pow Wow on Manitoulin Island last weekend, and while watching the dances, I imagined our forefathers sitting through a similar gathering, eyeing some brown-eyed maiden, and contriving a plan to take her off, without having his throat cut in the process. Our property on Georgian Bay at Janet head, looks north into the cool waters of the North Shore, and I sat with my daughter-in-law, discussing how four hundred years ago, voyageurs could have very cnceivably camped on our expanse of pebble beach, still very much as natural and untouched as it was then. Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh country were somehow underachievers. Anyone who thinks so should hop aboard a wooden boat, sans engine, and travel from Stennes through the Hudson Straits to Churchill, just for starters. Then try standing in front of a hungry and riled polar bear with a poor scattergun, and keep enough composure to make the one shot from this 20 guage disaster count. Nope, the fact that times were tough on Orkney doesn't make the people underachievers. The records here, thousands of pages of exciting factual stories of adventure, paint the truth. Any North American interested in Orkney and their roots, might well wish to visit Winnipeg and Fort York, and unearth the contributions achieved by truly remarkable, unshakeable and tenacious young men with a lust for adventure. Yours Aye: Stephen Davie (Canorky with a little native blood too!) On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 07:40 AM, Bill Irvine wrote: > "Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few times" > this does not explain why fully 60 percent of indentured Hudson's Bay > servants in Canada by the eighteenth century were Orcadians. > bill > p.s. unless it was the Bay's intent to hire only underachievers. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Sigurd Towrie <sigurd@orkneyjar.com> > Date: Saturday, August 7, 2004 1:34 am > Subject: RE: [<orcadia>] Jo Ben's Descriptio Insularum Orchadiarum > >> On 07 August 2004 05:22, Clint McInnes wrote: >> >>> This is brilliant and a real insight. Can you tell me please what >>> 'slothful drones' are...???? " uneducated people of the land who are >>> of bad habits, maybe >>> dirty and >>> of general moral decay " ... I assume...????? >> >> Indeed. Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few >> times. >>> and what then does >>> 'Sheipies' translate to please....???? >> >> I'm still looking into this one. On first glance it would appear >> to relate >> to "sheep" - however I suspect there's more to it and that it's a >> Norn term >> the author didn't understand so simply wrote what it sounded like. >> >> -- >> Sigurd Towrie >> Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney >> Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com >> Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com >> Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with >> the word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> >> > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

Wee touch of racism creeping in here me thinks Moi McCarty In message <C3FCEA56-E8B7-11D8-AC13-0003939E1D4C@sympatico.ca>, stephen davie <stephen.davie@sympatico.ca> writes >HBC in fact did hire underachievers, right off the bat. They were at >first Englishmen, vacumed up off the streets of London. They >consistently performed very poorly, were cowardly, and totally unsuited >for a tough long-term challenge. They were not adaptable, and had few >manly skills suited to the real outdoors. And unsurprising to those of >us who are descendant Canorkies (my term) who came to Canada with that >monopolistic corporate English symbol of imperialism, the english were >unsuited to the rigors of any typical challenge in the constantly- >changing natural world. Our viking forefathers on the other hand, >passed along the lifeskills needed to thrive and survive. These >included sea skills, and great "camping' wisdom for a variety of >extreme weather-related circumstances > >The HBC journals I have read, occasionally are critical of the Orcadian >HBC men. But the criticism was usually written by an englishman, who >was incapable of communicating effectively with our first nations >peoples, whom adored the Orcadians and loathed the English. History >recorded shows that fearless and courageous men alone, blazed the >trails for latter-day immigrants from Britian, and the first choice for >getting the job done was the Orkneymen from Firth and Stennes, >according to all credible historical records in this country. (by the >way, the English finally coughed up their HBC records which now have >their rightful home in Winnipeg, Manitoba.) > >In my family, it was evident that if you lived in Firth, as we did in >Grimbister near Davie Brig, and you wern't the eldest son of a >landowner, your chances of owning ground regardless of how hard you >worked were somewhere between nil and nothing, unless you could win the >heart of an only daughter with sick parents. In our family, on one >occasion, two young men went to Stennes where an HBC boat was set to >sail for the west. One of the young men said, "Go home and tell Ma that >I have gone west with the HBC but I'll be back in five years." That >type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in my mind >is far from the general description of an underachiever. When I meet >resident Orcadians on this site and elsewhere, there is an undertow of >curiosity and even a little envy of those families who came out here, >and slugged it out, swallowing mosquitoes by the pound when they dared >breath, losing their digits to frostbite, and confronting wild beasts >in the Bay area, with the worst of weapons handed out buy the company, >which often blew up in the face of the shooter confronted with a bear, >or whilst gathering meat. > >On August 24, 1782, our own Andrew Davie was captured with other >Orkneymen at fort Prince of Wales on Hudson's Bay. The circumstances >were rather odd, and the company were critical of the Orkneymen. Few of >them were ever trained to fire cannons which were placed on the walls. >I suppose as the French arrived, the lead-butted, chair-smothering >englishmen who commanded the Company from London would have liked it >better if all the Orcadian men fought their hearts out , and died with >their Orkney blood spilling onto the fallen union jack. But they were >survivors. Their conclusion was sort of "Hey, we are here doing our >thing for the company, where few others could. We want to go home in >five years or ten, with our hard earned money, to our families. Dying >at the hands of some beplumed frenchman who dropped in unannunced is >not part of the deal. So why not see if the man has a bottle or two of >brandy aboard, make peace, have a nice caribou and grouse feast with >bluberry pie and thereafter, find our way to the company and explain >that ill equiped as we were to defend it, we chose to live." This >beautiful piece of history underlines the practical thinking of >Orcadians. Also, whereas the English viewed natives here as a sub >species, sort of half human and half bear, the Orcadians learned skills >from them, and took native women for wives, in contrast to the stiff >and haughty Brits. One of our distant relatives, Joseph Isbister, took >a native wife (called country wives) and their son Alexander took a law >degree in Scotland and thereafter championed the cause of Metis in the employ of the company. >I was at a native Pow Wow on Manitoulin Island last weekend, and while >watching the dances, I imagined our forefathers sitting through a >similar gathering, eyeing some brown-eyed maiden, and contriving a plan >to take her off, without having his throat cut in the process. Our >property on Georgian Bay at Janet head, looks north into the cool >waters of the North Shore, and I sat with my daughter-in-law, >discussing how four hundred years ago, voyageurs could have very >cnceivably camped on our expanse of pebble beach, still very much as >natural and untouched as it was then. > >Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't >like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh >country were somehow underachievers. Anyone who thinks so should hop >aboard a wooden boat, sans engine, and travel from Stennes through the >Hudson Straits to Churchill, just for starters. Then try standing in >front of a hungry and riled polar bear with a poor scattergun, and keep >enough composure to make the one shot from this 20 guage disaster >count. Nope, the fact that times were tough on Orkney doesn't make the >people underachievers. The records here, thousands of pages of exciting >factual stories of adventure, paint the truth. Any North American >interested in Orkney and their roots, might well wish to visit Winnipeg >and Fort York, and unearth the contributions achieved by truly >remarkable, unshakeable and tenacious young men with a lust for adventure. >Yours Aye: >Stephen Davie (Canorky with a little native blood too!) >On Saturday, August 7, 2004, at 07:40 AM, Bill Irvine wrote: > >> "Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few times" >> this does not explain why fully 60 percent of indentured Hudson's Bay >>servants in Canada by the eighteenth century were Orcadians. >> bill >> p.s. unless it was the Bay's intent to hire only underachievers. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Sigurd Towrie <sigurd@orkneyjar.com> >> Date: Saturday, August 7, 2004 1:34 am >> Subject: RE: [<orcadia>] Jo Ben's Descriptio Insularum Orchadiarum >> >>> On 07 August 2004 05:22, Clint McInnes wrote: >>> >>>> This is brilliant and a real insight. Can you tell me please what >>>> 'slothful drones' are...???? " uneducated people of the land who are >>>> of bad habits, maybe >>>> dirty and >>>> of general moral decay " ... I assume...????? >>> >>> Indeed. Jo Ben harps on about the laziness of the Orcadians a few >>> times. >>>> and what then does >>>> 'Sheipies' translate to please....???? >>> >>> I'm still looking into this one. On first glance it would appear >>> to relate >>> to "sheep" - however I suspect there's more to it and that it's a >>> Norn term >>> the author didn't understand so simply wrote what it sounded like. >>> >>> -- Sigurd Towrie >>> Blackhall - Kirbister - Stromness - Orkney >>> Heritage of Orkney: www.orkneyjar.com >>> Home: sigurd@orkneyjar.com >>> Work: sigurd.towrie@orcadian.co.uk >>> >>> >>> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >>> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with >>> the word >>> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >>> >>> >> >> >> ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >> To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the >>word >> 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >> > > >==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the word >'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com > -- M.E.McCarty 13 North Main Street Tel: +44(0)1988 402062 Wigtown Scotland DG8 9HL

>>> Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh country were somehow underachievers. >>> That type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in my mind is far from the general description of an underachiever. . Sounds a bit "blue-eyed". Even the first Vikings who settled in Iceland, Brittany or Orkney, were underachievers (including the first Norse Earl of Orkney :-), who actually was the third choice according to saga tradition). Right from those early days the history of colonization is the history of underachievers a n d underpriviledged people. That does NOT exclude that some of them made big fortunes, splendid careers or found strength in their new living to build a new nation.

Good morning all. May the treasures of this beautiful sabbath be yours; peace love health and happiness. I simply make the factual point, for some who perhaps have never as yet experienced our magnificent huge yet untamed north, that the incredible feats performed by the early and young Orcadian paddlers, were not the accomplishments of folks one might flippantly describe as underachievers. An example of this would be for you to look at the website of MIL Davie, Shipbuilders. Do the people who built this huge billion dollar company many many years ago, who happened to be original HBC Orcadians, look like underachievers? As HBC men, that is the brand some give them. Then there is Joseph Isbister and countless amazing others. I acknowledge that these sorts of remarks were written years ago, in those times, but by whom? Think about it. Then there are those who think all Orcadians were little short people. Well, when they restricted back then for a time, the outbound HBC allowable minimum height to 5 foot something ( a dumb idea probably inspired by frustrated womenfolk), the only ones who fit under the measuring stick were kids, twelve and thirteen years old often. When I look at our Canorkies, I laugh at the remark. History took shots at our forefathers, but those volleys were fired by the real underachievers.....the ones for whom perhaps quite often the hearts of Orkney women did not beat, nor in their dreams, indulge. Much Orkney spirit, as well as a huge gene pool, seems to have clambered aboard those old ships. They were anything but society's weak and unfocused. There wasn't enough there at the time to focus on, perhaps, when compared with the stories flowing back with HBC returnees. Just because some twisted English penshaker historian decided to brand them underachievers doesn't make it so when you look at the facts. The real debate, it seems, is just who's measuring stick was used to determine what an underachiever was? Perhaps leaving Orkney, which is so limited in space and natural resources, was essential to give these lads a fair trial or opportunity to employ their genetics. After the Brits ended up with Orkney, what challenges were left? Marrying a Scot landowners daughter? Stacking up a stone fence? Trying to keep warm in winter in a woodless group of islands? Was not leaving and exploring and pushing on part of the Viking Orcadian existence? Who, in fact, discovered America? They way we know it, the proof lies in Labrador. Was either Lief the Lucky or Eric the Red branded the same disgusting unfitting underachiever name? That the longboat that landed in Labrador a thousand years ago had also touched Orkney is not unreasonable to muster up.(perhaps Christopher Columbus was merely summoned to these shores, by a Viking with a hankering for a pizza!) The other issue is, that in light of the fact that Orcadian achievements were so many and varied, that in addition to actually visiting our north, one has to read a few volumes of historical accounts (Caesars of the Wilderness, Company of Adventures, Alexander Isbister Etc.) to begin to comprehend the magnitude of the overall achievement. I personally think it took real courage for young Orkneymen returning home, to have in tow their Cree country wives and their offspring. Perhaps one day we can read something of the schools that were set up for these special children in Orkney, and the rationale for setting them apart from other children. I often wonder how many of those Orkney/Cree people still live in Orkney, and why. Perhaps they couldn't handle the confinement of Orkney, and the lack of trees or game. I am sure this topic has been studied, but not much is written that seems readily available. Maybe the story is not all "good." I guess they (Orkney Cree) too were branded "underachievers " rather than recognize their immense culture shock. To stand on the shores of Hudson's Bay, in a 50 mph northwester, three or four hundred miles from the nearest sizeable Cree village, penetrates the soul with an immeasurable flood of emotions. Fear, Awe, Curiosity, Shock, Joy...those sorts of things all mixed up in one cool experience. I am sure there are days afloat when Orkney fishermen still get a portion of that sense. ( Relatives of mine visiting recently, recanted that while traveling the few miles from Scotland to Orkney, the vast majority on board the ferry, ran for the rails to spew into the rolling sea. They could hardly hold back the giggles, as folk clutched their eyeglasses or teeth in one hand, and the rail with the other, intermittently groping around for a tissue.) Compare that huge British metalized, virtually unsinkable modern-day motorcow, with the vessels the underachievers steered through the cantankerous icebergs under sail, to get to this place. Hmmn.... No, it is to me at least unfair to broadbrush paint those with the courage to leave as underachievers. There had to be a sense of adventure along with a yearning for a less restricted and boring life than those yesteryear Islands had to offer. Would a healthy young man rather stack Orkney hay gratis, or paddle a birch bark canoe up uncharted rivers, guaranteed all the way of a wage, meals and gear and unending excitement. And as I read the Orkneyinga Saga, I see that same sense of outreach and adventure, bolstered by raw courage, as something to defend and uphold. I guess it is different for those of us who know this country and her north. For even with modernday technology, there persists days and routine experiences on the Bay, which prove she will never be tamed any more than the white bears that patrol her shores. And that suits me fine. So, enough of the underachievers. What did the achievers over there do? On to the positive stuff! I love the single malt. And some of the art is lovely. The cathedral is a wonderful icon, and an amazing construction feat of the day. Too bad there wasn't more Norwegian influence about; maybe that too will come. They are now the #1 ranked place in the world to live. Their sweaters are lovely, gayly patterned and practical in this country to boot. Hope there is a couple other Canorkies who might stand up for our pioneer achievers, on the basis of the big Canadian measuring stick and not accept the inaccurate thumbsucking dribble recanted from those dead four- hundred -year- old men who simply "missed the boat." And what about all those chaps who moved out to Australia? Do you call them underachievers too? From what I read and hear, that country too demanded exceptional people, to withstand the rigors or that harsh untamed land. In Orkney of old, perhaps criticism of their own who left to explore this vast and varied land, was a way to bolster weak hearts and soggy spirits. For every time an HBC ship left that place, tears I am sure were being shed by the families left behind, and in some cases, amongst those brave young men plowing into the dark cold sea. Considering the actual age of many of the men, mere boys in many cases, it is a harsh thing, if not patently stupid, to give them any negative brand at all. Most of them hadn't had time to even grow whiskers. Fourteen year-old-underachievers? Heiferdust! The very thought of slandering children as such, is to me overwhelmingly ludicrous. Au Revoir. A la Prochain! Stephen. Sunday, August 8, 2004, at 02:21 AM, Wolfgang Schlick wrote: >>>> Sorry Sig, but this Thorfin/Kolbein/Grimbister/Borwick/Davie doesn't > like to read the hint that the men who opened the doors in this harsh > country were somehow underachievers. > >>>> That type of adventurous spirit, passed down from Viking roots, in >>>> my > mind is far from the general description of an underachiever. . > > > > Sounds a bit "blue-eyed". Even the first Vikings who settled in > Iceland, > Brittany or Orkney, were underachievers (including the first Norse > Earl of > Orkney :-), who actually was the third choice according to saga > tradition). > Right from those early days the history of colonization is the history > of > underachievers a n d underpriviledged people. That does NOT exclude > that > some of them made big fortunes, splendid careers or found strength in > their > new living to build a new nation. > > > ==== ORCADIA Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the Orcadia mailing list, send an e-mail with the > word > 'unsubscribe' in the message body to orcadia-l-request@rootsweb.com >

>>>The real debate, it seems, is just who's measuring stick was used ...? I agree, that's a good question! So, Eric the Red discovered America? Just for a minute: Try to think about the chap who sat on bench four starboard side and the other some 40 men who rowed an sailed Eric across the water to get your measuring stick rescaled ... :-)