Well, the "hollywooded" state, is of los estados unidos, is an american concept, but indeed all that I have read of Orkney, precedes the epic arrival of the cursed idiot box era. We Canuks have a more European and somewhat different perspective on things, than our smaller but vastly more populous neighbor to the south, possible due to our material depravity and preserved practical rural mindset. Canada is still overwhelmed by things natural, and outside the cities, values and approaches are still traditional. I read as much as the average Canadian, no more no less, and somehow it seems for us a more valid and nutritious form of brain cereal than the tube. However in some instances, like documentaries and discovery and subtitled spanish language movies, the tube is great and of real comfort. I also love Julia Roberts and Jaylo and the big ever-living dead guy, John Wayne. Mindya our Canadian hollywooders hit the top....John Candy, Donald Southerland, Shania Twain and Celin Dion, And Paul what's his name (Schaefer maybe) of David Letterman. I paid considerable dollars for a couple of the sagas, Orkneyinga being one, in the first translation into english. It arrived from Holland, with a crippled spine, faded brown leather and a few blemishes, but for a thing over a hundred years old, I must say I was impressed. The extended family trees in the centre are a joy, as they reflect my own heritage, and it is repeatedly written that our Bjarni the Bishop was indeed one of the authors of Orkneyinga. He was a scald, but as a man involved with the Church I feel he was in a position to be realistic about what he wrote, and as perhaps a moral as well as an obviously clever person, he would I think, gain nothing by wasting his time writing some sort of mystical distortion account. His life in the real at the time was so well deserved of an accurate account that there was no point in a twist here or a stretch there. As an example of his integrity, the family lands he inherited in Dalsfjord near Dale, were given before his death, to a Monastery, as a gift. Thus as a Bishop and as a generous person, albeit a trader, I tend to read the things he and his pals wrote as being more accurate than not. Indeed to warp in any way the accounts of the various expeditions, may have at the time had some serious personal ramifications. I do not indeed know that much of all this, as a student of these times, and not a great one. I do know for certain of my family's deep Orkney Viking roots, and virtually nothing of this overall Scandinavian population whom you claim produced only about "1 or 2 percent" as "vikings." I have a long way to go in better understanding my viking roots, and my children and grandchildren will continue the practice when I am gone. Insofar as Norway's history goes, I would suggest that the percentages of resident raiders could have been higher in respects of Norwegian Orkney, based on the profile of those who came to Orkney and their initial motivations or reasons. These were people who indeed did raid often, and in some cases those who hid out in the islands sometimes, to avoid clashes with people wanting to settle scores for nasty incidents in Norway. Even the kings of that country routinely took their youngsters on viking expeditions (hence the noun). I recall the king who arrived in Orkney, and upon taking the jarl of the time, a Thorfin, aboard his boat with his son or grandson, the king suggested converting to Christianity would be a nice thing, and to prove his point, he said that if the jarl did not immediately agree, then he would cut the boy's throat and burn every structure standing on the islands. Orkney's viking population had to be in excess of that 1 and 2 percent you suggest. Too, the numbers who manned each fighting ship, were not insignificant. Organizing the assembly of men on such ships, seemed not to be a voluntary thing, in many cases. How could you refuse the call to action without repercussions? St. Magnus was perhaps the most high profile example of one who rejected the plundering, and he jumped ship in Scotland to avoid being killed by the less-than- impressed kingly sort with whom he sailed. I think that when you were called, you obeyed. You are right about Hollywood in my northern opinion, and as an extension of that distorted hype and marketing style of abject promotional bombardment, virtual politics in so-called democracies we all know are intentionally distorted and the truths manipulated to achieve election and power control goals. This we all concede, is funded by those who love and power and money more than people. The upheavel in latin american countries and the rejection of that sort of intentional assault on the free mind to achieve political success, is the basis of repeated revolutionary attempts, in countries where the exploited people are fed up with being manipulated and cheated , so they in desperation hit the streets in very messy clashes, from homes where most don't own a tv, but they surely reject the notion of the Hollywood approach to life, politics, and distorted democracy. Today it's Honduras. Will we ever know the truth behind that takeover? I think Daniel Ortega has it right. Those old Orkney days recorded by the scalds, at least were real. The politics of the day were abrupt, harsh and violent, but honest in a perplexing sort of way. People didn't tippy toe around how they felt when they were deceived or cheated. Things were resolved mano a mano, cara a cara. In truth, with respect, the Scalds who wrote the icelandic sagas, pre-empted the Hollywood disease which you so accurately describe and underline. I must admit, until I saw some of the realistic examples of viking headgear, I must admit I liked the California one with the cow horn implants upturned to the night sky, the silvery metal shining under the stars as the actors snuck ashore past the film crews and upon a dramatic beach, lead by Ronald Reagan or a yesteryear Clint Eastwood. Who'd a thought the likes of Hollywood's Ronnie would be the guy to launch an attack of Momar Kadafi's sleeping family, wounding two of his sons aged about four and five, and atomizing his baby daughter in the process? Thus, when people squirm at the word Viking and reflect on the raids, what has changed? Who was the Viking in the night raid on Libya, Reagan or the pilots who took over 100 innocent lives? So in truth, I find the rejection of the word viking, sort-of unrealistic as it relates to Orkney. I for one don't believe that Orcadian viking people were in any way contrived, and their lives in large part were subject to extremely harsh occurrences, consistent with those who lived along side of or were of the families of men, the countless men, who filled those graceful boats with their neat rows of men and oars. There are countless books written from Norway and Sweden on the Viking theme, and I hope to read more of them. Your final point on "kings, nobles, kings and clergy" is somewhat confusing, because each boat had one or two of those gentry type fellows. The men on the fifty or sixty oars with their swords at the ready, were not of those lofty roots. They left behind their crofts in Finstown or Rousay or Wyre to heed the call. The ratio between nobles or dignitaries on those raids, to ordinary men, was perhaps something like 30 to one. So, to the modern day resident scalds of Orkney, tell us please, in your valued opinions, what percentage of able bodied men between twenty and forty five, living in Orkney in 900 ad, would have participated in Viking raids, or in viking if you prefer the noun? Stephen > Shame on you Stephen....attribute your sources...and if it was > published > later than the mid 1200s it wouldn't support your position anyway. > > A point to conceder, almost everything we think we know about > history is > based on a very tiny part of the population. (This is true for > nearly all > history of any people anywhere and any when) The only things that > survive > are the activities of the nobles, leaders, poets, warriors, priests, > bishops, shamans. People of prominence. We know almost nothing > about the 99% > that just got through life as best they could. The Sagas are > particularly > tricky because they are actually long epic praise poems about the > doings of > the warrior elite. And they were composed by the PR > department...the skalds. > They have a lot of factual history in them, but it's hard to tease > out from > the flack. Think in terms of a rock star's biography written by his > press > agent. Also they were originally oral, and only written down much > later...by > Christian monks. So how much did they "correct" the original > material? We > have the same problem with a lot of the very early Irish and Welch > material. > My issue with using the term "Viking" is that it has been > Hollywooded into a > stereotype for the whole Scandinavian culture of the time, when in > fact was > probably typical of only 1-2% of the population. Sort of like > saying that > the only people that lived in Medieval times were knights, nobles, > kings, > and clergy. > R > > -----Original Message----- > From: orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:orcadia- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of stephen davie > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:32 PM > To: orcadia@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes > > Beg to differ.... > > viking...noun...any of the Scandinavian seafaring pirates or traders > who raided in many of the parts of north western Europe in the 8-11 > centuries. > > viking...the adjective...of or relating to vikings or the period in > which they lived > > OK, I agree that it is a bad handle, especially perhaps for the more > sensitive of us who indeed are descended from Norse forbears who > happened in many Orcadian cases, to be indeed Vikings. I had a touch > of the woozies in reading the details of some of the sagas and other > historic works, but I never got to chose myh parents, and I guess I > am who I am, descended on the side of my father from Kolbein Hruga > and the Thorfins, many of whom fell into that big V category. Combine > those Viking roots with the north american native content, and it is > indeed perplexing if not overwhelming. > > One thing we learned here in Canada with the battle on the Plains of > Abraham, where Montcalm fell to Wolf, in as much as some people try, > ya can't change history. > > Cheers.....Stephen > > > On Jul 24, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Royce Perry wrote: > >> >> GGrrrrrr....Norse!!!! Viking is not a real word...and if it was it >> was a verb...not a noun!!! Down With Viking!!! Up with Norse!!! >> >> R the Picky >> >>> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com >>> From: stephen.davie@sympatico.ca >>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:53:06 -0400 >>> Subject: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes >>> >>> I was reading today on the www, that a father and son team , in July >>> of 2007, unearthed a viking horde in England which was claimed to be >>> worth a million pounds by some erudite evaluator. My propensity for >>> speculation and romance kicks in again, as I recall the fascinating >>> books of viking lore of the Orkneys, and I can't help but think that >>> some day, some eager body in Orkney is going to unearth, perhaps by >>> accident, an accumulation of sivler coins and jewelry, carefully >>> concealed in the arms and safe keep of mother earth, by the viking >>> who left by the sea on yet another summer raid perhaps, which fellow >>> due to some dramatic and fatal event, never was to return to Orkney >>> to unearth and retreave his stash of previously plundered and horded >>> possessions. >>> >>> Surely I am not the sole keeper of this plausible dream. Indeed, on >>> behalf of all the vikings who lived on Orkney...."Where is the >>> "stuff" our forbears lusted after for all those centuries, when we >>> raided the shores of Scotland, England and Ireland? >>> >>> Two years ago I acquired an underwater metal detector which is >>> discriminatory by type of metal. It has not been out of the case, >>> but >>> this summer we are going to take it to our near north, to examine an >>> old wreck which a very senior citizen visited in the 1930's, and >>> from >>> which he just received a cannon ball. The conjecture is that the >>> boat >>> would not have carried cannon balls, without a cannon. We assume the >>> cannon will be brass, as the portage factor made slugging iron >>> cannons across portages practically impossible. >>> >>> I maintain that Vikings would not embark on viking expeditions, >>> without returning with the components of typical hordes. Based on >>> the >>> population, and the numerous excursions outlined in the sagas alone, >>> there is logic to the view, which will be solidified the day someone >>> trips over such a discovery. Obviously it is likely that many buried >>> treasures there are in the "abeyence" file as to the required >>> reporting to the government. >>> >>> Which begs the question....how many in Orkney have metal >>> detectors? I >>> suppose in light of the covetous albeit appropriate claims by >>> historical authorities in Scotland to any artifiacts exhumed, that >>> people are disinclined to bother, to some extent. When Mel Fisher >>> discovered the Atocha, the sabres rattled over rights and ownership >>> issues, for many years in many courts. When my friend Tracy Bowden >>> exhumed th esilver banks wreck, concepcion (1642) he entertained >>> armed security from the Dominican Republic on his boat for a decade, >>> ensuring that their 50% made it to the museum in Porta Plata. >>> >>> In particular, it seems that Vikings were bead lovers, and one would >>> think that in burial areas and amaongst old ruins, the beads which >>> are durable, would surface on a somewhat regular basis. You might >>> google viking beads, or Dr. Dan Carlsson, who is the acknowledged >>> expert on the subject. I wrote to him once, and he is a very >>> interesting and obviouosly expert historian. IN researching for the >>> book project, I discovered that authors in Scotland interested in >>> Orkney, would travel to Norway to fill in the blanks where Scottish >>> notes were thin in some centuries. >>> >>> The absence of viking possessions in Orkney is redolent of an >>> ongoing >>> mystery, considering that their culture flourished for centuries in >>> Orkney, and the object of their lusty voyages, was in large part, >>> material valuables which would have returned to Orkney and been >>> deposited in their private earthy banks. >>> >>> Looking forward to my trip over to Orkney and Norway in September. >>> >>> Cheers all....stephen >>> _______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >>> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> _______________________________________ >> Orcadia Group Photo Album >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >