Sometimes I think it best if artefacts were dug up, looked at, photographed, pondered over, and then reburied whence they came. I am not fond of collectors/collections. Case after case of items taken from it earthly resting place and stored out of its long term realm for people to gawk at, or worse make money from. The bones and "bones" of ancestors, given the general name "artefacts" and lined up in glass cases and drawers in museums or in living or trophy rooms, not just a single item like an arrowhead ploughed up in the garden or a single piece of coin or crockery washed ashore and found on a walk on a beach, but modern day plunder. Maybe the Earth has/is given dominion once something is buried and the original owner or "lifter' long gone, in this case to act as care taker to such things buried for what ever reason. Just a wish, though I suppose not practical or fair in our modern world where ownership of land and goods is so important. Nan On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:04 AM, <orcadia-request@rootsweb.com> wrote: > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Royce Perry) > 2. Re: Orkney Viking Hordes (Tuck) > 3. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Linda Rice) > 4. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Norman Tulloch) > 5. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Tuck) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 07:15:30 -0500 > From: "Royce Perry" <perryroyce@hotmail.com> > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes > To: <orcadia@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <BAY131-DS4818CBA8DC92BB3BE547DC1160@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > For reference, my use of the term Norse in historical discussions IS to the > Old Norse speaking people of Scandinavia, not just the ones that came from > the geographic location now called Norway. > R > > -----Original Message----- > From: orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On > Behalf Of Norman Tulloch > Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:59 AM > To: orcadia@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes > > Just as a matter of interest, here's part of a Wikipedia article on > "Viking": > _______________________________________________________________________ > > *Etymology* > > In Old Norse, the word is spelled v?kingr. The word appears on several > rune stones found in Scandinavia. In the Icelanders' sagas, v?king > refers to an overseas expedition (Old Norse fara ? v?king "to go on an > expedition"), and v?kingr, to a seaman or warrior taking part in such an > expedition. > > In Old English, the word wicing appears first in the Anglo-Saxon poem, > "Widsith", which probably dates from the 9th century. In Old English, > and in the writings of Adam von Bremen, the term refers to a pirate, and > is not a name for a people or a culture in general. Regardless of its > possible origins, the word was used more as a verb than as a noun, and > connoted an activity and not a distinct group of individuals. To "go > Viking" was distinctly different from Norse seaborne missions of trade > and commerce. > > The word disappeared in Middle English, and was reintroduced as Viking > during 18th century Romanticism (the "Viking revival"), with heroic > overtones of "barbarian warrior" or noble savage. > > During the 20th century, the meaning of the term was expanded to refer > not only to the raiders, but also to the entire period; it is now, > somewhat confusingly, used as a noun both in the original meaning of > raiders, warriors or navigators, and to refer to the Scandinavian > population in general. As an adjective, the word is used in expressions > like "Viking age", "Viking culture", "Viking colony", etc., generally > referring to medieval Scandinavia. The pre-Christian Scandinavian > population is also referred to as Norse, although that term is properly > applied to the whole civilization of Old-Norse-speaking people. In > current Scandinavian languages, the term Viking is applied to the people > who went away on Viking expeditions, be it for raiding or trading. > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > OK, I know Wikipedia articles sometimes need to be treated with caution, > but if that article is correct, Viking/viking seems to have been used > largely as a noun and an adjective since the 18th century and the verb > usage seems to have pretty much disappeared. > > In fact, if the first paragraph that I've quoted is correct, even in the > Icelandic sagas the word "viking" was a noun, meaning "an overseas > expedition", with "vikingr" referring to one who took part in such an > expedition. > > Norman T. > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:10:29 -0400 > From: Tuck <tuck12@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes > To: orcadia@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <BCA41B3B-F95F-46FF-9F9A-DD8C905997FB@comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > All, > > Ah, history. And just what is that? The famous quote says history is > written by the winners, and there is truth to that, but how much truth > is there to history? > > OK, so much of history as we know it is skewed and, often, little more > than propaganda, yet where would we be without it? When one thinks > back on, say, the history of England, one thinks almost immediately of > the list of kings marching along, and everything else seems to slot > into that. So the Tudor period, the Restoration, the Victorian age and > so on all take their place on the grid of royal succession. The same > is pretty well true everywhere else, with the French kings, the > Chinese, the Inca and so on. And of course that's only a small part of > the story, but no one writes down how Mrs. Doobiddle did the laundry > on the Monday in 1465. > > However, the very notion of history is undergoing deep changes. Today > historians refer to many kinds of history. Kings and Battles refers to > what was generally taught us when we were in school. But there is > Social History, Gender History, Economic History, Art History, > Histories of Science, Technology, Medicine, and on and on. More and > more historians are looking at things other than kings and battles and > actually concerning themselves a bit with Mrs. Doobiddle and her > laundry. Indeed I would wager someone, somewhere, is studying the > history of laundry. Why did only women do the washing? What were the > technologies of laundry at various times? Why in hell did Victorian > women, walking streets covered with horse droppings, and having no > modern washing machines, insist on dragging those long dresses through > the muck? Why did Rosa Bonheur, the mid 19th century French sculptor, > need permission from the police to wear trousers as she hung out in > the corrals? > > My daughter is an historian, and her subject is the student revolts > against the military crackdown in Brazil in the 1960s and 70s. Such > things (student reactions to events) have, until the last few decades, > been largely overlooked by historians. Perhaps further research will > tell us a whole lot more about those curious creatures we call > vikings, and exactly what they did, and did not, do. > > As for that pesky term Viking, it does seem, from this discussion, > that the word has early origins, rather different from those used to > day, but that it underwent a refurbishing in the 18th and 19th > centuries, just as the whole notion of Christmas did, especially in > the England of the 19th century, Dickens and all that. > So perhaps, for purposes of discussion here, we can agree that viking > is a noun describing a certain kind of activity carried out by a small > percentage of the population of certain northern countries during a > relatively narrow period of history. > > But those helmets with horns on sure are cool looking! > > > Tuck > On Jul 25, 2009, at 7:58 AM, Royce Perry wrote: > > > Shame on you Stephen....attribute your sources...and if it was > > published > > later than the mid 1200s it wouldn't support your position anyway. > > > > A point to conceder, almost everything we think we know about > > history is > > based on a very tiny part of the population. (This is true for > > nearly all > > history of any people anywhere and any when) The only things that > > survive > > are the activities of the nobles, leaders, poets, warriors, priests, > > bishops, shamans. People of prominence. We know almost nothing about > > the 99% > > that just got through life as best they could. The Sagas are > > particularly > > tricky because they are actually long epic praise poems about the > > doings of > > the warrior elite. And they were composed by the PR department...the > > skalds. > > They have a lot of factual history in them, but it's hard to tease > > out from > > the flack. Think in terms of a rock star's biography written by his > > press > > agent. Also they were originally oral, and only written down much > > later...by > > Christian monks. So how much did they "correct" the original > > material? We > > have the same problem with a lot of the very early Irish and Welch > > material. > > My issue with using the term "Viking" is that it has been > > Hollywooded into a > > stereotype for the whole Scandinavian culture of the time, when in > > fact was > > probably typical of only 1-2% of the population. Sort of like saying > > that > > the only people that lived in Medieval times were knights, nobles, > > kings, > > and clergy. > > R > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com > > ] On > > Behalf Of stephen davie > > Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:32 PM > > To: orcadia@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes > > > > Beg to differ.... > > > > viking...noun...any of the Scandinavian seafaring pirates or traders > > who raided in many of the parts of north western Europe in the 8-11 > > centuries. > > > > viking...the adjective...of or relating to vikings or the period in > > which they lived > > > > OK, I agree that it is a bad handle, especially perhaps for the more > > sensitive of us who indeed are descended from Norse forbears who > > happened in many Orcadian cases, to be indeed Vikings. I had a touch > > of the woozies in reading the details of some of the sagas and other > > historic works, but I never got to chose myh parents, and I guess I > > am who I am, descended on the side of my father from Kolbein Hruga > > and the Thorfins, many of whom fell into that big V category. Combine > > those Viking roots with the north american native content, and it is > > indeed perplexing if not overwhelming. > > > > One thing we learned here in Canada with the battle on the Plains of > > Abraham, where Montcalm fell to Wolf, in as much as some people try, > > ya can't change history. > > > > Cheers.....Stephen > > > > > > On Jul 24, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Royce Perry wrote: > > > >> > >> GGrrrrrr....Norse!!!! Viking is not a real word...and if it was it > >> was a verb...not a noun!!! Down With Viking!!! Up with Norse!!! > >> > >> R the Picky > >> > >>> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com > >>> From: stephen.davie@sympatico.ca > >>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:53:06 -0400 > >>> Subject: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes > >>> > >>> I was reading today on the www, that a father and son team , in July > >>> of 2007, unearthed a viking horde in England which was claimed to be > >>> worth a million pounds by some erudite evaluator. My propensity for > >>> speculation and romance kicks in again, as I recall the fascinating > >>> books of viking lore of the Orkneys, and I can't help but think that > >>> some day, some eager body in Orkney is going to unearth, perhaps by > >>> accident, an accumulation of sivler coins and jewelry, carefully > >>> concealed in the arms and safe keep of mother earth, by the viking > >>> who left by the sea on yet another summer raid perhaps, which fellow > >>> due to some dramatic and fatal event, never was to return to Orkney > >>> to unearth and retreave his stash of previously plundered and horded > >>> possessions. > >>> > >>> Surely I am not the sole keeper of this plausible dream. Indeed, on > >>> behalf of all the vikings who lived on Orkney...."Where is the > >>> "stuff" our forbears lusted after for all those centuries, when we > >>> raided the shores of Scotland, England and Ireland? > >>> > >>> Two years ago I acquired an underwater metal detector which is > >>> discriminatory by type of metal. It has not been out of the case, > >>> but > >>> this summer we are going to take it to our near north, to examine an > >>> old wreck which a very senior citizen visited in the 1930's, and > >>> from > >>> which he just received a cannon ball. The conjecture is that the > >>> boat > >>> would not have carried cannon balls, without a cannon. We assume the > >>> cannon will be brass, as the portage factor made slugging iron > >>> cannons across portages practically impossible. > >>> > >>> I maintain that Vikings would not embark on viking expeditions, > >>> without returning with the components of typical hordes. Based on > >>> the > >>> population, and the numerous excursions outlined in the sagas alone, > >>> there is logic to the view, which will be solidified the day someone > >>> trips over such a discovery. Obviously it is likely that many buried > >>> treasures there are in the "abeyence" file as to the required > >>> reporting to the government. > >>> > >>> Which begs the question....how many in Orkney have metal > >>> detectors? I > >>> suppose in light of the covetous albeit appropriate claims by > >>> historical authorities in Scotland to any artifiacts exhumed, that > >>> people are disinclined to bother, to some extent. When Mel Fisher > >>> discovered the Atocha, the sabres rattled over rights and ownership > >>> issues, for many years in many courts. When my friend Tracy Bowden > >>> exhumed th esilver banks wreck, concepcion (1642) he entertained > >>> armed security from the Dominican Republic on his boat for a decade, > >>> ensuring that their 50% made it to the museum in Porta Plata. > >>> > >>> In particular, it seems that Vikings were bead lovers, and one would > >>> think that in burial areas and amaongst old ruins, the beads which > >>> are durable, would surface on a somewhat regular basis. You might > >>> google viking beads, or Dr. Dan Carlsson, who is the acknowledged > >>> expert on the subject. I wrote to him once, and he is a very > >>> interesting and obviouosly expert historian. IN researching for the > >>> book project, I discovered that authors in Scotland interested in > >>> Orkney, would travel to Norway to fill in the blanks where Scottish > >>> notes were thin in some centuries. > >>> > >>> The absence of viking possessions in Orkney is redolent of an > >>> ongoing > >>> mystery, considering that their culture flourished for centuries in > >>> Orkney, and the object of their lusty voyages, was in large part, > >>> material valuables which would have returned to Orkney and been > >>> deposited in their private earthy banks. > >>> > >>> Looking forward to my trip over to Orkney and Norway in September. > >>> > >>> Cheers all....stephen > >>> _______________________________________ > >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album > >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > >>> ------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > >>> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> _______________________________________ > >> Orcadia Group Photo Album > >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- > >> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >> in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > _______________________________________ > > Orcadia Group Photo Album > > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > > > > _______________________________________ > > Orcadia Group Photo Album > > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:30:49 -0400 > From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net> > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes > To: <orcadia@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <4A4682B1FDB94F5E9F15303CAFD92B6A@VMAA1> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > The beginning of the so-called "Viking Age" is generally accepted by most > scholars to be the raid at Lindisfarne in 793. The culture had its heyday > in > the 9th and 10th centuries, with the Battle of Stamford Bridge (Vikings vs > Anglo-Saxons) and then the Battle of Hastings (Anglo-Saxons vs Normans) in > 1066 most usually considered to be the "end" of the age. However it is also > worth noting that many consider the Battle of Largs (Scotland) in 1263 to > be > the ultimate final skirmish initiated by Vikings. It wasn't a big battle > and > had little historic impact, so it's pretty much been lost in the dust, so > to > speak. > > "Vikings" had a good run for about 250+ years. It is worth noting that the > Normans who won at Hastings were in fact of Norse descent. "Norman" means > North Man, the region of France from whence they came was settled by Norse. > > But getting back to the original posting... yes, I'm quite keen to see what > gets dug up anywhere on Orkney that is Viking. If a person who was very > interested in learning more about Vikings in Orkney wanted to plan a visit > someday, where would the best 'must see' places be? Is there a museum or > have all the best artifacts been carted off to London or someplace? > > Thanks! > > ::Linda:: > > > > -----Original Message----- > On Behalf Of Royce Perry > > Remember, the > time frame we are talking about only lasted from the mid 800's until the > late 900s early 1000s. Little more than 150 years. > R > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:59:40 +0100 > From: Norman Tulloch <norman@nwtulloch.vispa.com> > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes > To: orcadia@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <4A6B1DDC.7030309@nwtulloch.vispa.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Linda Rice wrote: > > > > But getting back to the original posting... yes, I'm quite keen to see > what > > gets dug up anywhere on Orkney that is Viking. If a person who was very > > interested in learning more about Vikings in Orkney wanted to plan a > visit > > someday, where would the best 'must see' places be? Is there a museum or > > have all the best artifacts been carted off to London or someplace? > > > > Thanks! > > > > ::Linda:: > > Tankerness House Museum in Kirkwall: > http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/kirkwall/orkneymuseum/index.html > > The Brough of Birsay: > > http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/westmainland/broughofbirsay/index.html > > St Magnus Cathedral, of course, and Orphir Church: > http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/westmainland/orphirchurch/index.html > > There must be a fair amount of Viking stuff at the National Museum of > Scotland in Edinburgh, but I haven't been there for a very long time, > and the British Museum in London is bound to have a lot too, from > various parts of the UK. > > Norman T. > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:16:30 -0400 > From: Tuck <tuck12@comcast.net> > Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes > To: orcadia@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <FE62D8B6-9F3F-47BD-8171-983BE7302FC0@comcast.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes > > All, > > Normandy is called that because in the year 911 (auspicious number?) > the king of France, tired or Norse raids into the French interior with > their shallow draft boats, told the Norse he wold give them a chunk of > France if they wold stop raiding. He did, they did, and it is called > Normandy after their Northern origins. > > As for digging up Norse artifacts, there is yet another question that > must be asked and answered: suppose you do find things. Who owns them? > What do you do with them? Are they all carted off to London or > Edinburgh, can you sell them, can you keep them, or do they stay in > Orkney somehow? > > > Tuck > On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Linda Rice wrote: > > > The beginning of the so-called "Viking Age" is generally accepted by > > most > > scholars to be the raid at Lindisfarne in 793. The culture had its > > heyday in > > the 9th and 10th centuries, with the Battle of Stamford Bridge > > (Vikings vs > > Anglo-Saxons) and then the Battle of Hastings (Anglo-Saxons vs > > Normans) in > > 1066 most usually considered to be the "end" of the age. However it > > is also > > worth noting that many consider the Battle of Largs (Scotland) in > > 1263 to be > > the ultimate final skirmish initiated by Vikings. It wasn't a big > > battle and > > had little historic impact, so it's pretty much been lost in the > > dust, so to > > speak. > > > > "Vikings" had a good run for about 250+ years. It is worth noting > > that the > > Normans who won at Hastings were in fact of Norse descent. "Norman" > > means > > North Man, the region of France from whence they came was settled by > > Norse. > > > > But getting back to the original posting... yes, I'm quite keen to > > see what > > gets dug up anywhere on Orkney that is Viking. If a person who was > > very > > interested in learning more about Vikings in Orkney wanted to plan a > > visit > > someday, where would the best 'must see' places be? Is there a > > museum or > > have all the best artifacts been carted off to London or someplace? > > > > Thanks! > > > > ::Linda:: > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > On Behalf Of Royce Perry > > > > Remember, the > > time frame we are talking about only lasted from the mid 800's until > > the > > late 900s early 1000s. Little more than 150 years. > > R > > > > > > > > _______________________________________ > > Orcadia Group Photo Album > > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > End of ORCADIA Digest, Vol 2, Issue 54 > ************************************** > -- Nan Fowler Adult Education Program Department of Lifelong Education, Administration, and Policy River's Crossing, 4th Floor 850 College Station Road University of Georgia Athens, GA USA 30602