Well said, Nan. Janice On Jul 25, 2009, at 11:37 AM, Nan Fowler wrote: > Sometimes I think it best if artefacts were dug up, looked at, > photographed, > pondered over, and then reburied whence they came. I am not fond of > collectors/collections. Case after case of items taken from it > earthly > resting place and stored out of its long term realm for people to > gawk at, > or worse make money from. The bones and "bones" of ancestors, given > the > general name "artefacts" and lined up in glass cases and drawers in > museums > or in living or trophy rooms, not just a single item like an arrowhead > ploughed up in the garden or a single piece of coin or crockery washed > ashore and found on a walk on a beach, but modern day plunder. > Maybe the > Earth has/is given dominion once something is buried and the > original owner > or "lifter' long gone, in this case to act as care taker to such > things > buried for what ever reason. Just a wish, though I suppose not > practical or > fair in our modern world where ownership of land and goods is so > important. > Nan > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2009 at 11:04 AM, <orcadia-request@rootsweb.com> > wrote: > >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Royce Perry) >> 2. Re: Orkney Viking Hordes (Tuck) >> 3. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Linda Rice) >> 4. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Norman Tulloch) >> 5. Re: Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes (Tuck) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 07:15:30 -0500 >> From: "Royce Perry" <perryroyce@hotmail.com> >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes >> To: <orcadia@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <BAY131-DS4818CBA8DC92BB3BE547DC1160@phx.gbl> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> For reference, my use of the term Norse in historical discussions >> IS to the >> Old Norse speaking people of Scandinavia, not just the ones that >> came from >> the geographic location now called Norway. >> R >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com >> ] >> On >> Behalf Of Norman Tulloch >> Sent: Saturday, July 25, 2009 6:59 AM >> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes >> >> Just as a matter of interest, here's part of a Wikipedia article on >> "Viking": >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> *Etymology* >> >> In Old Norse, the word is spelled v?kingr. The word appears on >> several >> rune stones found in Scandinavia. In the Icelanders' sagas, v?king >> refers to an overseas expedition (Old Norse fara ? v?king "to go on >> an >> expedition"), and v?kingr, to a seaman or warrior taking part in >> such an >> expedition. >> >> In Old English, the word wicing appears first in the Anglo-Saxon >> poem, >> "Widsith", which probably dates from the 9th century. In Old English, >> and in the writings of Adam von Bremen, the term refers to a >> pirate, and >> is not a name for a people or a culture in general. Regardless of its >> possible origins, the word was used more as a verb than as a noun, >> and >> connoted an activity and not a distinct group of individuals. To "go >> Viking" was distinctly different from Norse seaborne missions of >> trade >> and commerce. >> >> The word disappeared in Middle English, and was reintroduced as >> Viking >> during 18th century Romanticism (the "Viking revival"), with heroic >> overtones of "barbarian warrior" or noble savage. >> >> During the 20th century, the meaning of the term was expanded to >> refer >> not only to the raiders, but also to the entire period; it is now, >> somewhat confusingly, used as a noun both in the original meaning of >> raiders, warriors or navigators, and to refer to the Scandinavian >> population in general. As an adjective, the word is used in >> expressions >> like "Viking age", "Viking culture", "Viking colony", etc., generally >> referring to medieval Scandinavia. The pre-Christian Scandinavian >> population is also referred to as Norse, although that term is >> properly >> applied to the whole civilization of Old-Norse-speaking people. In >> current Scandinavian languages, the term Viking is applied to the >> people >> who went away on Viking expeditions, be it for raiding or trading. >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> OK, I know Wikipedia articles sometimes need to be treated with >> caution, >> but if that article is correct, Viking/viking seems to have been used >> largely as a noun and an adjective since the 18th century and the >> verb >> usage seems to have pretty much disappeared. >> >> In fact, if the first paragraph that I've quoted is correct, even >> in the >> Icelandic sagas the word "viking" was a noun, meaning "an overseas >> expedition", with "vikingr" referring to one who took part in such an >> expedition. >> >> Norman T. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________ >> Orcadia Group Photo Album >> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:10:29 -0400 >> From: Tuck <tuck12@comcast.net> >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes >> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <BCA41B3B-F95F-46FF-9F9A-DD8C905997FB@comcast.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> >> All, >> >> Ah, history. And just what is that? The famous quote says history is >> written by the winners, and there is truth to that, but how much >> truth >> is there to history? >> >> OK, so much of history as we know it is skewed and, often, little >> more >> than propaganda, yet where would we be without it? When one thinks >> back on, say, the history of England, one thinks almost immediately >> of >> the list of kings marching along, and everything else seems to slot >> into that. So the Tudor period, the Restoration, the Victorian age >> and >> so on all take their place on the grid of royal succession. The same >> is pretty well true everywhere else, with the French kings, the >> Chinese, the Inca and so on. And of course that's only a small part >> of >> the story, but no one writes down how Mrs. Doobiddle did the laundry >> on the Monday in 1465. >> >> However, the very notion of history is undergoing deep changes. Today >> historians refer to many kinds of history. Kings and Battles refers >> to >> what was generally taught us when we were in school. But there is >> Social History, Gender History, Economic History, Art History, >> Histories of Science, Technology, Medicine, and on and on. More and >> more historians are looking at things other than kings and battles >> and >> actually concerning themselves a bit with Mrs. Doobiddle and her >> laundry. Indeed I would wager someone, somewhere, is studying the >> history of laundry. Why did only women do the washing? What were the >> technologies of laundry at various times? Why in hell did Victorian >> women, walking streets covered with horse droppings, and having no >> modern washing machines, insist on dragging those long dresses >> through >> the muck? Why did Rosa Bonheur, the mid 19th century French sculptor, >> need permission from the police to wear trousers as she hung out in >> the corrals? >> >> My daughter is an historian, and her subject is the student revolts >> against the military crackdown in Brazil in the 1960s and 70s. Such >> things (student reactions to events) have, until the last few >> decades, >> been largely overlooked by historians. Perhaps further research will >> tell us a whole lot more about those curious creatures we call >> vikings, and exactly what they did, and did not, do. >> >> As for that pesky term Viking, it does seem, from this discussion, >> that the word has early origins, rather different from those used to >> day, but that it underwent a refurbishing in the 18th and 19th >> centuries, just as the whole notion of Christmas did, especially in >> the England of the 19th century, Dickens and all that. >> So perhaps, for purposes of discussion here, we can agree that viking >> is a noun describing a certain kind of activity carried out by a >> small >> percentage of the population of certain northern countries during a >> relatively narrow period of history. >> >> But those helmets with horns on sure are cool looking! >> >> >> Tuck >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 7:58 AM, Royce Perry wrote: >> >>> Shame on you Stephen....attribute your sources...and if it was >>> published >>> later than the mid 1200s it wouldn't support your position anyway. >>> >>> A point to conceder, almost everything we think we know about >>> history is >>> based on a very tiny part of the population. (This is true for >>> nearly all >>> history of any people anywhere and any when) The only things that >>> survive >>> are the activities of the nobles, leaders, poets, warriors, priests, >>> bishops, shamans. People of prominence. We know almost nothing about >>> the 99% >>> that just got through life as best they could. The Sagas are >>> particularly >>> tricky because they are actually long epic praise poems about the >>> doings of >>> the warrior elite. And they were composed by the PR department...the >>> skalds. >>> They have a lot of factual history in them, but it's hard to tease >>> out from >>> the flack. Think in terms of a rock star's biography written by his >>> press >>> agent. Also they were originally oral, and only written down much >>> later...by >>> Christian monks. So how much did they "correct" the original >>> material? We >>> have the same problem with a lot of the very early Irish and Welch >>> material. >>> My issue with using the term "Viking" is that it has been >>> Hollywooded into a >>> stereotype for the whole Scandinavian culture of the time, when in >>> fact was >>> probably typical of only 1-2% of the population. Sort of like saying >>> that >>> the only people that lived in Medieval times were knights, nobles, >>> kings, >>> and clergy. >>> R >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:orcadia-bounces@rootsweb.com >>> ] On >>> Behalf Of stephen davie >>> Sent: Friday, July 24, 2009 10:32 PM >>> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com >>> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes >>> >>> Beg to differ.... >>> >>> viking...noun...any of the Scandinavian seafaring pirates or traders >>> who raided in many of the parts of north western Europe in the 8-11 >>> centuries. >>> >>> viking...the adjective...of or relating to vikings or the period in >>> which they lived >>> >>> OK, I agree that it is a bad handle, especially perhaps for the more >>> sensitive of us who indeed are descended from Norse forbears who >>> happened in many Orcadian cases, to be indeed Vikings. I had a touch >>> of the woozies in reading the details of some of the sagas and other >>> historic works, but I never got to chose myh parents, and I guess I >>> am who I am, descended on the side of my father from Kolbein Hruga >>> and the Thorfins, many of whom fell into that big V category. >>> Combine >>> those Viking roots with the north american native content, and it is >>> indeed perplexing if not overwhelming. >>> >>> One thing we learned here in Canada with the battle on the Plains of >>> Abraham, where Montcalm fell to Wolf, in as much as some people try, >>> ya can't change history. >>> >>> Cheers.....Stephen >>> >>> >>> On Jul 24, 2009, at 11:29 AM, Royce Perry wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> GGrrrrrr....Norse!!!! Viking is not a real word...and if it was it >>>> was a verb...not a noun!!! Down With Viking!!! Up with Norse!!! >>>> >>>> R the Picky >>>> >>>>> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com >>>>> From: stephen.davie@sympatico.ca >>>>> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 10:53:06 -0400 >>>>> Subject: [ORCADIA] Orkney Viking Hordes >>>>> >>>>> I was reading today on the www, that a father and son team , in >>>>> July >>>>> of 2007, unearthed a viking horde in England which was claimed >>>>> to be >>>>> worth a million pounds by some erudite evaluator. My propensity >>>>> for >>>>> speculation and romance kicks in again, as I recall the >>>>> fascinating >>>>> books of viking lore of the Orkneys, and I can't help but think >>>>> that >>>>> some day, some eager body in Orkney is going to unearth, perhaps >>>>> by >>>>> accident, an accumulation of sivler coins and jewelry, carefully >>>>> concealed in the arms and safe keep of mother earth, by the viking >>>>> who left by the sea on yet another summer raid perhaps, which >>>>> fellow >>>>> due to some dramatic and fatal event, never was to return to >>>>> Orkney >>>>> to unearth and retreave his stash of previously plundered and >>>>> horded >>>>> possessions. >>>>> >>>>> Surely I am not the sole keeper of this plausible dream. Indeed, >>>>> on >>>>> behalf of all the vikings who lived on Orkney...."Where is the >>>>> "stuff" our forbears lusted after for all those centuries, when we >>>>> raided the shores of Scotland, England and Ireland? >>>>> >>>>> Two years ago I acquired an underwater metal detector which is >>>>> discriminatory by type of metal. It has not been out of the case, >>>>> but >>>>> this summer we are going to take it to our near north, to >>>>> examine an >>>>> old wreck which a very senior citizen visited in the 1930's, and >>>>> from >>>>> which he just received a cannon ball. The conjecture is that the >>>>> boat >>>>> would not have carried cannon balls, without a cannon. We assume >>>>> the >>>>> cannon will be brass, as the portage factor made slugging iron >>>>> cannons across portages practically impossible. >>>>> >>>>> I maintain that Vikings would not embark on viking expeditions, >>>>> without returning with the components of typical hordes. Based on >>>>> the >>>>> population, and the numerous excursions outlined in the sagas >>>>> alone, >>>>> there is logic to the view, which will be solidified the day >>>>> someone >>>>> trips over such a discovery. Obviously it is likely that many >>>>> buried >>>>> treasures there are in the "abeyence" file as to the required >>>>> reporting to the government. >>>>> >>>>> Which begs the question....how many in Orkney have metal >>>>> detectors? I >>>>> suppose in light of the covetous albeit appropriate claims by >>>>> historical authorities in Scotland to any artifiacts exhumed, that >>>>> people are disinclined to bother, to some extent. When Mel Fisher >>>>> discovered the Atocha, the sabres rattled over rights and >>>>> ownership >>>>> issues, for many years in many courts. When my friend Tracy Bowden >>>>> exhumed th esilver banks wreck, concepcion (1642) he entertained >>>>> armed security from the Dominican Republic on his boat for a >>>>> decade, >>>>> ensuring that their 50% made it to the museum in Porta Plata. >>>>> >>>>> In particular, it seems that Vikings were bead lovers, and one >>>>> would >>>>> think that in burial areas and amaongst old ruins, the beads which >>>>> are durable, would surface on a somewhat regular basis. You might >>>>> google viking beads, or Dr. Dan Carlsson, who is the acknowledged >>>>> expert on the subject. I wrote to him once, and he is a very >>>>> interesting and obviouosly expert historian. IN researching for >>>>> the >>>>> book project, I discovered that authors in Scotland interested in >>>>> Orkney, would travel to Norway to fill in the blanks where >>>>> Scottish >>>>> notes were thin in some centuries. >>>>> >>>>> The absence of viking possessions in Orkney is redolent of an >>>>> ongoing >>>>> mystery, considering that their culture flourished for centuries >>>>> in >>>>> Orkney, and the object of their lusty voyages, was in large part, >>>>> material valuables which would have returned to Orkney and been >>>>> deposited in their private earthy banks. >>>>> >>>>> Looking forward to my trip over to Orkney and Norway in September. >>>>> >>>>> Cheers all....stephen >>>>> _______________________________________ >>>>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>>>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >>>>> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> _______________________________________ >>>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA- >>>> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>>> in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> _______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 10:30:49 -0400 >> From: "Linda Rice" <vmaa2@cox.net> >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes >> To: <orcadia@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <4A4682B1FDB94F5E9F15303CAFD92B6A@VMAA1> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> The beginning of the so-called "Viking Age" is generally accepted >> by most >> scholars to be the raid at Lindisfarne in 793. The culture had its >> heyday >> in >> the 9th and 10th centuries, with the Battle of Stamford Bridge >> (Vikings vs >> Anglo-Saxons) and then the Battle of Hastings (Anglo-Saxons vs >> Normans) in >> 1066 most usually considered to be the "end" of the age. However it >> is also >> worth noting that many consider the Battle of Largs (Scotland) in >> 1263 to >> be >> the ultimate final skirmish initiated by Vikings. It wasn't a big >> battle >> and >> had little historic impact, so it's pretty much been lost in the >> dust, so >> to >> speak. >> >> "Vikings" had a good run for about 250+ years. It is worth noting >> that the >> Normans who won at Hastings were in fact of Norse descent. "Norman" >> means >> North Man, the region of France from whence they came was settled >> by Norse. >> >> But getting back to the original posting... yes, I'm quite keen to >> see what >> gets dug up anywhere on Orkney that is Viking. If a person who was >> very >> interested in learning more about Vikings in Orkney wanted to plan >> a visit >> someday, where would the best 'must see' places be? Is there a >> museum or >> have all the best artifacts been carted off to London or someplace? >> >> Thanks! >> >> ::Linda:: >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> On Behalf Of Royce Perry >> >> Remember, the >> time frame we are talking about only lasted from the mid 800's >> until the >> late 900s early 1000s. Little more than 150 years. >> R >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 15:59:40 +0100 >> From: Norman Tulloch <norman@nwtulloch.vispa.com> >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes >> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <4A6B1DDC.7030309@nwtulloch.vispa.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Linda Rice wrote: >>> >>> But getting back to the original posting... yes, I'm quite keen to >>> see >> what >>> gets dug up anywhere on Orkney that is Viking. If a person who >>> was very >>> interested in learning more about Vikings in Orkney wanted to plan a >> visit >>> someday, where would the best 'must see' places be? Is there a >>> museum or >>> have all the best artifacts been carted off to London or someplace? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> ::Linda:: >> >> Tankerness House Museum in Kirkwall: >> http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/kirkwall/orkneymuseum/ >> index.html >> >> The Brough of Birsay: >> >> http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/westmainland/broughofbirsay/index.html >> >> St Magnus Cathedral, of course, and Orphir Church: >> http://www.undiscoveredscotland.co.uk/westmainland/orphirchurch/index.html >> >> There must be a fair amount of Viking stuff at the National Museum of >> Scotland in Edinburgh, but I haven't been there for a very long time, >> and the British Museum in London is bound to have a lot too, from >> various parts of the UK. >> >> Norman T. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 11:16:30 -0400 >> From: Tuck <tuck12@comcast.net> >> Subject: Re: [ORCADIA] Fw: Orkney Viking Hordes >> To: orcadia@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <FE62D8B6-9F3F-47BD-8171-983BE7302FC0@comcast.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes >> >> All, >> >> Normandy is called that because in the year 911 (auspicious number?) >> the king of France, tired or Norse raids into the French interior >> with >> their shallow draft boats, told the Norse he wold give them a chunk >> of >> France if they wold stop raiding. He did, they did, and it is called >> Normandy after their Northern origins. >> >> As for digging up Norse artifacts, there is yet another question that >> must be asked and answered: suppose you do find things. Who owns >> them? >> What do you do with them? Are they all carted off to London or >> Edinburgh, can you sell them, can you keep them, or do they stay in >> Orkney somehow? >> >> >> Tuck >> On Jul 25, 2009, at 10:30 AM, Linda Rice wrote: >> >>> The beginning of the so-called "Viking Age" is generally accepted by >>> most >>> scholars to be the raid at Lindisfarne in 793. The culture had its >>> heyday in >>> the 9th and 10th centuries, with the Battle of Stamford Bridge >>> (Vikings vs >>> Anglo-Saxons) and then the Battle of Hastings (Anglo-Saxons vs >>> Normans) in >>> 1066 most usually considered to be the "end" of the age. However it >>> is also >>> worth noting that many consider the Battle of Largs (Scotland) in >>> 1263 to be >>> the ultimate final skirmish initiated by Vikings. It wasn't a big >>> battle and >>> had little historic impact, so it's pretty much been lost in the >>> dust, so to >>> speak. >>> >>> "Vikings" had a good run for about 250+ years. It is worth noting >>> that the >>> Normans who won at Hastings were in fact of Norse descent. "Norman" >>> means >>> North Man, the region of France from whence they came was settled by >>> Norse. >>> >>> But getting back to the original posting... yes, I'm quite keen to >>> see what >>> gets dug up anywhere on Orkney that is Viking. If a person who was >>> very >>> interested in learning more about Vikings in Orkney wanted to plan a >>> visit >>> someday, where would the best 'must see' places be? Is there a >>> museum or >>> have all the best artifacts been carted off to London or someplace? >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> ::Linda:: >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> On Behalf Of Royce Perry >>> >>> Remember, the >>> time frame we are talking about only lasted from the mid 800's until >>> the >>> late 900s early 1000s. Little more than 150 years. >>> R >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________ >>> Orcadia Group Photo Album >>> http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com >>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >>> the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> End of ORCADIA Digest, Vol 2, Issue 54 >> ************************************** >> > > > > -- > Nan Fowler > Adult Education Program > Department of Lifelong Education, Administration, and Policy > River's Crossing, 4th Floor > 850 College Station Road > University of Georgia > Athens, GA USA 30602 > _______________________________________ > Orcadia Group Photo Album > http://tinyurl.com/28bx9x > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to ORCADIA-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message