The relationship between language and culture (and environment) is a fascinating topic, but I think when Judy says " language is the culture keeper" she has it only half right. Yes the culture is affected by the language, (if the language dies then the culture is at least irreversibly changed). But the language is also a reflection of the culture, and as the culture changes so does the language - just think of the phrase "to make love", and imagine the shock of one of Jane Austen's heroines on discovering what it now means. Among the Orcadian words that are still alive for me are (see below for definitions): 1) kye, quoy, stot, wither, stray, stook, peddie, abune 2) to beat fluex, to swadge, to skurt, to hint (tatties or stones), to dell, delling knife, tusker The first group are Orcadian words with a direct English equivalent, but where my first choice would be for the Orcadian word. The second group are words with no direct English equivalent, and are roughly ordered according to how familiar a non-Orcadian English speaker would find the concept. These words are still alive for me because they express concepts that exist in my world of experience. However a word like "sholt" (a pony), which while I know what it means isn't a live word for mean because it doesn't express something that exists in my world of experience. Of course there are still ponies, and I know what they look like and stuff but but I have little need to use the word, and when I say "pony" I do not mean the same as when my grandfather said "sholt"; consider and compare "horsy-folk" and "horseman", they have completely different meanings, because they exist in a different cultural context. This is the problem I have when I try and use dialect words more (apart from the fact that I live in Zurich and people would look at me funny if I said "aye-aye beuy, whit like?"): most of the concepts I want to express are not expressible in Orcadian, and most of what I can express in Orcadian is not relevant to my life. What are the Orcadian words for computer, internet, stock exchange, television, tram, referendum, or supermarket? How would we discuss Iraq in Orcadian? there are no words for Shi'i, Sunni, insurgent, terrorist, or international law. Of course we could invent words for these concepts but what would the point be? As the world becomes more open, travel easier, and cultures come together (which I firmly believe is a Good Thing) the concepts which people need to describe their world converge and so the language they use becomes more similar, even if the vocabulary and grammar remain distinct. Of course the convergence will never be complete, as people within an area will always have locally specific concepts they need to communicate to each other; nobody outside Marwick will ever need to know what "The Tud" is. So yes, while we should record the language of today, and as much of that of the past as we can, we must remember that to freeze language means to freeze culture and society and that is a Bad Thing. I'm very glad indeed that while I can understand that in the past the seasons were much more important and people grew bere because they had to, I don't really understand what it was like, and what they really meant when they spoke about it because I've never inhabited their world and so their language is foreign to me. I don't fully understand what you mean Judy when you say: "My theory is that it is 'not necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well." but I'm very glad that nobody decided to "preserve" Orcadian culture from the outside world, and so condemned me and other Orcadians to a life of stunted development and constrained choice. Robert 1) kye = cattle, quoy = heifer (young cow), stot = steer, wither = castrated male sheep, stray = barley or oat straw, stook = stack of hay or straw, or bales of hay or straw, peddie = little, abune = above 2) to beat fleux = to flap your arms about and sort of hugging yourself in an effort to keep warm to swadge = to relax after a meal to skurt = to throw straw underneath an animal as bedding to hint = to pick off the ground, and gather together to dell = to remove the top most section (which does not contain useable peat) from a peat bank. delling knife = a large dog-leg shaped knife used for delling. The blade is about 2-3 feet in length. tusker = a tool used for cutting peat On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 11:55:38 -0400, "Judy" wrote: > > Stephan, Kathy, Sigurd et al: > Good conversation here! Wonderful sounds in the poem > I quoted below! As a poet I am intrigued by what I am > imagining are the 'sounds' of the Orkney/Scots (?) language. > I'm new at this, so please be patient. > And Kathy as you say, language is the culture keeper. The > Native American poets I know are very busy trying to decipher, > write down and keep for the generations yet to come, their > language groups and their poetry reflects the intensity and > integrity of their ceremonies and culture. > So, the lovely little poem written and translated below > (thanks Sigurd)explains volumes about: importance of seasons, > importance of food and types of food grown. If one does not > "fill one's belly when the sun leaves", one has a hard winter > ahead--beautiful phrase to describe the stark reality. Even > beginning the poem with "We've had to cultivate turnips..." > lends the image of doing something for survival that one > might not want to do, but does anyhow-- > Back to language and cultures. My theory is that it is 'not > necessary' to make accessible to the whole world the specifics > of a language, and that by not doing so, one preserves the culture > 'from' the rest of this raging world out here. This is the Native > American position taken by the Ogallala Sioux, Pawnee, Pima, Hopi, > Navaho and some of the eastern tribes as well. > Fascinating to learn that the French/Orkney/Native American > trading in Canada spawned a language/dialect! Guess that would > have to happen because people would need to talk in order to > trade effectively. My, aren't we humans wonderfully inventive? > I am finding The Orkneyinga fascinating and am happy to > read it in English, however, hearing the ancient words spoken > would convey another meaning, something hidden in sound that > I'm sure is missing in the translation, but then translation suffers > this kind of slippage. > Hadn't heard that "Orcadians are overly 'inward', but as I > say, I am new at this. If a culture is 'overly inward', there is > mostly likely a reason for it. Again, the Native American cultures > that I am privy to, are also 'overly inward' and for good reason. > And then there is the problem of the papers you refer to being > kept in Kirkwall. Of course, information should be available in > library form for everyone and I do not know about the translation > of texts issue from the Orcadian viewpoint, but I see from your > writing, Stephen, that it is an issue. > As I see it, the stone circles and archaeological sites 'speak' > without spoken language on one level anyhow very eloquently. > (And I've only seen pictures--thanks Sigurd.) The conundrum > seems to be, if a culture invites the rest of the world, how to > keep nasty guests from the table? > Judy >